Excellent info in here, we won't let this thread die yet

Must.... keep.... it.... ALIVE!!!

2 of my 400gr speers recovered from water jugs. Both had a retained weight of 388gr give or take a grain (been a dew months) one was shot at 50yds and penetrated 5 milk jugs. Second at about 100yds went through 5 jugs, a piece of plywood and then stopped in an old creosoted log

Chronod at just under 1800fps

Pics and such incoming from test results

https://i.imgur.com/P4QV3LD.jpg 100yds 3 shots

Vids wouldnt post

Elmer Keith would approve.

The 400gr Speer did well!

The one in the log shown is separate from the other two. Was the same load at 100yds. Blew through it sideways so i had to shoot longways to catch it

If you would shoot a 500 grain hardcast round nosed bullet at 1250 to 1300 fps through those same milk jugs, you would go through about eighteen of them, not just five. We recently shot a 500 grain hardcast bullet end to end and out of a metal 55 gallon drum filled with water. Long ways, not side to side. The jacketed cup and core bullets just won't get the job done like the hardcast. I'll see if I can't get pictures posted of the drum. A 577 Nitro Express shooting a 750 grain bullet knocked a dent in the bottom of the drum, but did not exit.

I understand that they won't penetrate the same as hardcast. I'm just wondering if they will penetrate enough while still mushrooming. I like a good mushroom and penetration

I've read that the Browning 1885 .45-70 have a short throat and won't work with the 430+gr bullets...are there any good 350-405gr hard cast options?

I've used the 405gr cast performance on paper

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
If you would shoot a 500 grain hardcast round nosed bullet at 1250 to 1300 fps through those same milk jugs, you would go through about eighteen of them, not just five. We recently shot a 500 grain hardcast bullet end to end and out of a metal 55 gallon drum filled with water. Long ways, not side to side. The jacketed cup and core bullets just won't get the job done like the hardcast. I'll see if I can't get pictures posted of the drum. A 577 Nitro Express shooting a 750 grain bullet knocked a dent in the bottom of the drum, but did not exit.

sharpsguy,
Send me a PM if you want pictures posted, please !

https://www.24hourcampfire.com...hp/topics/15022337/1

By direction of sharpsguy, pics from above thread:

55-gallon steel drum filled with water:



Orientation of drum in front of oak tree backstop:



The .45-70 Govt. load fired from a 24"-barreled vintage Winchester 1886 (made in 1892 before the smokeless vogue):
492-grain FN, grease-grooved, 16:1 alloy
70 grains of FFg BP (OE)
1256 fps from 24" barrel




Large entrance wound on left (top of barrel), exit wound on right (bottom of barrel) in this photo of dying barrel:



Exit wound on bottom of barrel, equivalent to a perfect Reverse-Texas Heart Shot on a big bull barrel:



Where the bullet came to rest in a "live oak tree,"
a wound that might require a followup shot.
That happens sometimes when herd-shooting oil drums and trees,
and you line 'em up on purpose:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com...hp/topics/15022337/1

By direction of sharpsguy, pics from above thread:

55-gallon steel drum filled with water:



Orientation of drum in front of oak tree backstop:



The .45-70 Govt. load fired from a 24"-barreled vintage Winchester 1886 (made in 1892 before the smokeless vogue):
492-grain FN, grease-grooved, 16:1 alloy
70 grains of FFg BP (OE)
1256 fps from 24" barrel

xxx

Large entrance wound on left (top of barrel), exit wound on right (bottom of barrel) in this photo of dying barrel:



Exit wound on bottom of barrel:

Thats impressive

One of the things that makes me sit up and take notice is the fact that the bullet has gone completely out of sight into the oak tree AFTER completely traversing the full length of the 55 gallon water filled drum. That ain't exactly a love tap with black powder, guys.

Hyak55171 copied and pasted while I was still typing.
Here is a part he missed, for emphasis:

The .45-70 Govt. load fired from a 24"-barreled vintage Winchester 1886 (made in 1892 before the smokeless vogue):
492-grain FN, grease-grooved, 16:1 alloy
70 grains of FFg BP (OE)
1256 fps from 24" barrel





I am thinking I need to slow my 543-gr FNGC hardcast down to 1350 to 1500 fps for super-penetrator smokeless loads in a .458 WIN(-)P.

I actually have a load for that bullet at 2024 fps that shoots more accurately than it is supposed to at surely a pressure over 32,000 psi for BHN 25.
COL is 3.340".
Not supposed to happen.

I better save the +2000 fps stuff for jacketed and monometal copper and brass in the .458 WIN+P.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Rip
You can keep your faster load and kill all the NA game you want to with it. Just know you can do the same with a much nicer slower load as well!

And THAT is the truth.

I have a load for my 405gr cast performance wfn, i may just start loading that for everything. My new question is, what would y'all consider the optimal hardcast weight? 405gr 430gr 500gr? For a do it all bullet

In a 45 caliber, 480 to 510 grain hardcast is your huckelberry. My 1-18 twist rifles give less than stellar accuracy with bullets weighing less than 480 grains, and this is the weight where penetration starts to really come in to play.

In shooting bison, we found that we didn't get reliable complete side to side pass through and exit penetration with 450 grain bullets with our 45-70 and 45-110, but 480 grains and heavier always went all the way through. Velocities from 1200fps to 1380 fps always gave complete pass through on bison with these bullet weights.

So 405gr wfn hard cast at 1700fps wouldnt penetrate as well?

quote:

Originally posted by Hyak55171:
So 405gr wfn hard cast at 1700fps wouldnt penetrate as well?

Alas, probably not.
Resistance of the game animal tissue goes up exponentially with increasing velocity.
1200 to 1380 fps (average = 1290 fps)
seems to be the sweet range for penetration with hardcast FN bullets, as observed by sharpsguy.
Also demonstrated by his buddy with 492-grainer.

Sectional density drives penetration.
But increasing sectional density also drives bullet expansion at any given impact velocity, just like it drives ballistic coefficient in air.

Increasing sectional density of the bullet will make it expand/deform more for any given velocity of impact,
thus increasing resistance of the game animal tissue also.
480gr to 510gr (average = 495gr) is the sweet range for bullet weights, as observed by sharpsguy.
480gr SD = 0.327
495gr SD = 0.337
510gr SD = 0.347

A 500-grain hardcast FN at 1300 fps ought to be the cat's meow for penetrating buffalo.

But a 450-gr brass or copper FN at 2300 fps is a proven penetrator on elephant also.
Both of those monometals can stand the higher resistance due to higher velocity without deforming.
.395-caliber brass and copper FN's of 330-gr and 340-gr respectively,
started expanding their meplats at 2800 fps and 2700 fps respectively on initial impact with water.
Both copper and brass FN bullets of identical SD (a bit over 0.300) could be said to be suitable for up to 2600 fps impact with flesh,
safe to say.

The greater momentum from higher velocity of a lighter bullet is required to overcome that greater tissue resistance due to higher impact velocity.
and by the way,
the bullet slows down in the animal to 1300 fps somewhere along the way.
It might just end up penetrating as well as a hardcast FN of 500-gr weight and 1300 fps MV,
with similar permanent wound cavity, and much greater temporary wound cavity.
The latter will be mostly dissipated as heat,
but not enough to make the animal feverish or die sooner.
The extra energy dump might cause some internal soft tissue damage,
like some scrambling of grey and white matter if the bullet passes through or near the brain.

I will go out on a limb and suggest that a .458/450-gr brass or copper FN (SD = 0.306, about like a .375/300-gr FN SD = 0.305)
at 2400 fps might be a good penetrator and brain scrambler too.
There is that age-old suggestion of 2400 fps as tops for the DG rifle, again.
But that has always been for smokeless and jacketed/monometal.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Something to consider....The big bore handgun guys have been shooting elephants for several years now. One of their favorite set ups is a 475 Linebaugh with a 480 grain hardcast flat nosed bullet at 1200 fps. The shot of choice is a frontal brain shot, and the bullet is usually found in the vertebra of the neck.

Sounds a lot like a properly loaded 45-70 to me.

Make the .458"/ 480-gr FN .45-70 BPCR bullet hard enough,
and it will penetrate better than the .475"/ 480-gr 480 Linebaugh smokeless handgun bullet if both are impacting at 1200 fps.

Also, the BPCR shooter will more precisely place the brain shot, absolutely so, for two reasons:

1. The BPCR ammo is inherently more accurate than the smokeless handgun ammo.

2. The BPCR long gun is inherently more accurate than the smokeless handgun, due to sight radius, etc.

Dang ! The .45-70 BPCR is an elephant rifle !

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Straight clip on wheel weight alloy water quenched will give 19-21 BHN which is hard enough. That, and a Lyman 457121 mold and you are in business. Works in a Sharps, and cycles through a lever gun like it is greased. Other than the fact that the cartridge doesn't cost five bucks a pop, and it is not called a 45-70 H&H or a 45-70 Rigby, what's not to like?

Perfect.
I do not have a good supply of the old clip-on wheel weights.
The newer ones are polluted by zinc, etc.

My substitute might be better than anything.

10 pounds of Lawrence Brand Magnum Shot (shot size 7-1/2)
+
A half pound of 50:50 solder (lead:tin)
=
10.5 pounds of 92-5-2-1 alloy:
92% lead
5% antimony
2% tin
1% arsenic

Pour it into mould from pot at 700*F
Water drop it.
Tested BHN = 24.8

Commercial Linotype tested BHN = 20.9 using same Lee Hardness Test Kit, by me.

Powder-coat painting the BHN 24.8 alloy anneals it to BHN 19.3 (450*F for 30 minutes), or 20.9 (250*F for 12 minutes).
Either way, after 4 weeks the 92-5-2-1 alloy has age-hardened back to BHN 24.8 or ~ 25.

"92-5-2-1 Alloy" is a mouthful.
Henceforth I am calling it simply "25."

The alloy content is just my best guess from internet research.
The tested BHN was reliably done with commercial Linotype as a control, by me.
Better to call it "25."

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

quote:

Dang ! The .45-70 BPCR is an elephant rifle !

Per Rip---- wow, but that will hurt the feelings of a lot of gun snobs that argue that even the modern .45-70 can not kill elephant (even though it has been done time and again with various lever action rifles.)
My .45-90 buffalo and elephant gun:

Here is the Lyman 457121 bullet that sharpsguy recommends:



This is how I use it with smokeless powder, powder-coat painted,
with slices of caulk-backer rod foam wad filler.
The indexing of the bullet is left to you to find a marker on your mould.
That is a Cosmic Squirrel Secret technique and I am sworn to secrecy.
It is an aid for accuracy when firing a la single-shot.
Align bullet same way for each shot, i.e., marker up, and a Sharpie mark on the base of the case can be added in alignment with the bullet marker.

If you want to use BP compressed by almost a half inch before seating the bullet,
for the ultimate in accuracy and barely sub-1300 fps MV,
you must use the naked bullet with grease-groove lube,
and blow and wipe your bore after each shot.

A tubular magazine shooting note:



.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Or you can simply load it over 38.5 grains of IMR 3031. Lubed with SPG or a 50/50 mixture of olive oil and beeswax there is no need for powder coating, and the resulting 1320 fps velocity puts you right in the velocity wheel house. Again, what's not to like?

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
Or you can simply load it over 38.5 grains of IMR 3031. Lubed with SPG or a 50/50 mixture of olive oil and beeswax there is no need for powder coating, and the resulting 1320 fps velocity puts you right in the velocity wheel house. Again, what's not to like?

That's a nice load for hardcast FN 480-grainer.
Powder-coat paint is nicer.
Grease lube not needed for softening minimal fouling of smokeless.
Powder-coat paint is better at preventing lead fouling.

.458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM PERFECTION

Non Illegitimi Carborundum

LOL RIP, you guys are 'nearly' having as much fun with this thread as I did shooting that drum with my old lever action ; ]

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
Something to consider....The big bore handgun guys have been shooting elephants for several years now. One of their favorite set ups is a 475 Linebaugh with a 480 grain hardcast flat nosed bullet at 1200 fps. The shot of choice is a frontal brain shot, and the bullet is usually found in the vertebra of the neck.

Sounds a lot like a properly loaded 45-70 to me.

sharpsguy,
would you mind directing me to a hunt report where this was done?thanks.

This is off the top of my head, and the article stuck with me, but just exactly WHERE I read it escapes me.

However, it was in one of the slick magazines about 20 years ago that there was a lot of interest in the Linebaugh 475 and the Linebaugh 500. IIRC it was Ross Seyfred that took the elephant with the 475, and he followed up by taking a bison with the 500. I have seen references to other men taking elephant with the 475 Linebaugh, but never paid a lot of attention to which magazine it was in. Maybe someone else has a better line on this? JWP475 perhaps?

I just did a google search and you can find examples in "Guns and Ammo" and "American Handgunner" from about 20 years ago. It is also mentioned on the Smith and Wesson forum.