https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6521043/m/137101817

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EVqT3XEzss

watching the above video makes you laugh but if you want to shoot a big bad 585 bullet or the 577 nitro express around and want to spend about 2K vs 15K in a double rifle...this might be for you.

the traditional 577 shot a 750 grain bullet @ 2,050 fps and it was the standard for ivory hunters of the late 1800's

that was all well and good...then comes the t-rex shooting a 750 grainer @ 2600 fps and the above video shows the drawbacks of such a gun in a hunting weight rifle.

the drawbacks of the t-rex for the averag guy
expensive
recoil
HUGE

then the more sensable but not by much nyati...capable of shooting the 750 grainers @ 2400 fps...still unmanageable and expensive for the average shooter and add a rebate rim for the cherry on top to add to the smithing bill.

the new 585 ahr is basicly a 600 overkill necked down without the rebate but still too big to fit on a cz550 and expensive.

so what is the best way to shoot this beast for the average blue collar big bore enthusiast?

well there is the ruger # 1 but you will be out the same money and limited to a single shot and in a rifle not designed for heavy recoil.

thus the 585 belted magnum

not too expensive or too heavy, no rebate to mess with for smithing and feeding and good brass that will last a long time and not too punishing recoil but more power if you wanted...

the 585 belted magnum being developed by ed hubel father of the infamous 12gfh and big bore to the max enthusiast is making this idea a reality and a reality to those interested in having one.

to describe the case (pic below with a 30-06 for scale) it is basicly a fat 470 capstick it is 25% increase in total volume over the capstick and is 3" long (same length as the 577 n.e.). size wise it is bigger than the 550 magnum (sans rebate) and smaller than the 600 overkill. the parent case is the 505 gibbs. ed swages a belt on the case and necks it to the .585 dia bullet. the gibbs case is having a revival due to the renaisance of big bore shooters and the advent of the 408 chey-tac. the 505 once a cart you only read about is now a cart that is avaliable from several sources like norma, jamison and betram. being that the case is no longer obscure and jamison brass could be had for $2 a case this brings the belted versions affordability up. cz makes the 505 on its affordable cz550 model so we know that it works. now if you pick up this zc550 in 416 rigby (approximately $1,000) you could rebarrel it and for about 2K you could be shooting affordably the big bad 585! get a new drop box and you can have 4 down and one in the chamber ready to take on a charge from several elephants if need be.

now for those who must...the top end of this cart estimated could push the 750 grainers @ 2300 fps. but i like the idea of shooting it at classic velocities and looooooooooow preasure

design advantages of this case is in not having any shoulder to mess with and to increase bolt thrust. furthermore the case life will be great since this is a straight belted case.

hope you like this and i will use this thread to post the development of this cartridge.

load development will be comming soon.

all thanks goes to ed who without his talent and love of big bores this would be just an idea.

Here is a picture next to 06 for comparison.
Case has 650 gr Woodleigh in pic.Case holds 160gr
of ball powder. Case 3" long, belt and rim .634",
base .618", mouth .605", belt headspace length
is .250". Sectioned cases show sides just ahead of belt
same thickness as 600 OK brass. Ed

boomstick,
your quote: "the new 585 ahr is basicly a nyati without the rebate but still too big to fit on a cz550 and expensive."

The 585 AHR is a necked down 600 OK case. It has a belt, the Nyati doesn't. With the center fed mag box the 585 AHR fits nicely in the CZ550M action as does the 600 OK. Expensive? Maybe to some.

ok edited post... my analogy was not very good on the ahr. nothing "wrong" with it i just think this is better...

to each his own. i like this idea for how cheap it can be done but it can be done up expensive if you like

thanks for the correction

i realize the diff in carts will be mostly style but i think this is a real niche.

Boomie,

you talk Ed into making me 100 cases, and I'll build one over the winter.

Rich
DRSS

way to go rich!

no convincing necessary...he is making himself avaliable to make cases to those who want them. he is a case-smith extrordinare! give him a call and he will get the cases to you.

what rig...the remington p17? cz550?

Arrangements for case supply last nite.
The cases you will be able to get from
Neal at Custom Brass and Bullets. He has
half a garage full 505 basic cases,
and all I'm doing is changing them too
belted. And swaged ready to load. They're
Jamison cases, and have the word
Magnum stamped on them. Couple numbers changed
and it will read 585 Magnum.Ed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ0qwhOQWzE&mode=related&search=

And here you have an norwegian firing the 577 TR. It not`s me but i`m present there, listen for an specific english commentary....

ed just posted the case capacity is 185gr of water...that is a lot of room for power or low preasure!

mr rigby...this cart will make people less afraid of big bores...the classic load of 750 @ 2050 will be stout but not bad.

if you want to have fun load it with cordite

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
ed just posted the case capacity is 185gr of water...that is a lot of room for power or low preasure!

mr rigby...this cart will make people less afraid of big bores...the classic load of 750 @ 2050 will be stout but not bad.

if you want to have fun load it with cordite

How do you know it will be "stout but not bad" -- what actual field experience led you to that conclusion?

Where do you get cordite these days?

the cordite was a joke thus the although black powder would be fun.

recoil calculator http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm

i like some good recoil...

shooting +p+ loads in my guide gun with the useless recoil pad is what i call fun. i know there is a big diff between them but i do not seem to be recoil sensative as most

but hey...this is about the new cart...real world testing will happen soon enough and i will let ed report his findings on that.

charles... what do you think of the cart?

quote:

but i do not seem to be recoil sensative as most

Big difference is an understatement. My 45/70 1895 with max loads recoils about the same as my 375 H&H....a light rifle.

A 500gr bullet at 2500fps is a whole nuther world of hurt my friend. You won't know if your recoil sensitivity has kicked in until you've tried that from the bench a few times, trying to dial in irons or a scope. I hafta agree with Charles...its a little premature for you to be making that kind of statement (ie. 750 at 2050 being "stout, but not bad").

Carry on,
Canuck

ok i rescind my comments on recoil since it has not been fired yet and people here are shy on humor and can tend to be testy. my statement was in comparison to the other big 585's specificly the t-rex not 45-70's there is a huge diff i agree in regular guns and big bores. now that all disclosures have been posted...

can the thread stay on the topic of the new cart and its potential merrits

if people wish to shoot 585's 750 gr @ 2400 god bless them...i like the idea of shooting classic velocities in this. can it do more...we will see... ed sure thinks so and the capacity will allow for it.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
...and people here are shy on humor and like to be testy.

Oh, I didn't realize you were just joking.

Hey, just friendly advice before we get back on topic completely -- you might try keeping your commentary within, or at least relative to, the context of your actual experience...then when us testy ol' grumps read it and disagree, we might simply state same and not rain on your parade so much. Your enthusiasm is nothing if not laudible.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
...and people here are shy on humor and like to be testy.

Oh, I didn't realize you were just joking.

Hey, just friendly advice before we get back on topic completely -- you might try keeping your commentary within, or at least relative to, the context of your actual experience...then when us testy ol' grumps read it and disagree, we might simply state same and not rain on your parade so much. Your enthusiasm is nothing if not laudible.

Cheers,
Canuck

thanks cannuk... i am so excited about this cart so if my exuberance gets away from me i can count on people here to keep me in check...sorry if i come off cocky or more hat then cattle (i admit that i am mostly hat)...i am just so pleased and greatful this is happening

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
...and people here are shy on humor and like to be testy.

Oh, I didn't realize you were just joking.

Hey, just friendly advice before we get back on topic completely -- you might try keeping your commentary within, or at least relative to, the context of your actual experience...then when us testy ol' grumps read it and disagree, we might simply state same and not rain on your parade so much. Your enthusiasm is nothing if not laudablelaughable.

Cheers,
Canuck

Fixed it...

See, I have a sense of humor!

ok i deserve that...

i know i am an easy target or make myself one

well so far two are getting made and with the relatively low cost of the cz550 conversion hopefuly more...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:


ok i deserve that...

i know i am an easy target or make myself one

Seriously, if you go the extra mile to do rather than just post, and if you post what you know and have done rather than speculation posted as fact, I for one would take you more seriously, not that you should care what I think.

Quit smoking cigars and drinking whisky and build a big bore, or just get with some members in your area and shoot some. Then take pictures and post a report!

Buy a bus ticket to Jeffe's place and shoot some really big ones.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
well so far two are getting made and with the relatively low cost of the cz550 conversion hopefuly more...

The mystery builders need to commit to posting lots of pictures as the project gets underway! Are the reamers made, or did I miss that detail?

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:


ok i deserve that...

i know i am an easy target or make myself one

Seriously, if you go the extra mile to do rather than just post, and if you post what you know and have done rather than speculation posted as fact, I for one would take you more seriously, not that you should care what I think.

Quit smoking cigars and drinking whisky and build a big bore, or just get with some members in your area and shoot some. Then take pictures and post a report!

Buy a bus ticket to Jeffe's place and shoot some really big ones.

business has been bad in the mortgage industry if you keep up with that stuff...i have had to give up cigars and scotch the last 6mo...

i hope to get out there soon and i am finishing up my other gun first.

Nice!! That looks like a fantastic idea that has a lot of potential. I've always wondered what it would be like to shoot a classic 577 double, but never had the $$ or the generosity of a buddy to let me borrow one. The Nyati has too many loading variables, and the T-Rex went right out the window for the reasons listed above and is further assisted by the shaky ground on which A-Square's been standing as of late.

As far as those questioning the "not that bad" recoil comment - how bad could it be? It's certainly below the levels offered up by the T-Rex and the Nyati, and would probably simulate a 577 double, assuming a 'reasonable' weight hunting rifle. I'll be dog-earing this post to follow along with the progress.

The only drawback I could see to this is the cost of the components. Certainly, a 577 caliber rifle burns a lot of powder, and there are definitely no plinking bullets available. As long as the brass comes in under $2ea and is readily available, it should fit within most big bore shooters' budgets.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
well so far two are getting made and with the relatively low cost of the cz550 conversion hopefuly more...

The mystery builders need to commit to posting lots of pictures as the project gets underway! Are the reamers made, or did I miss that detail?

ed has his own 585 already and is going to rechamber it to do the load development. next step is the reamer print and order.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

business has been bad in the mortgage industry if you keep up with that stuff...i have had to give up cigars and scotch the last 6mo...

i hope to get out there soon and i am finishing up my other gun first.

Good luck as we have all seen where the mortgage business is going. I can sympathize as my industry went through a meltdown a few years ago.

There is nothing wrong with enthusiasm to a degree.

Sorry to come off so critical today. I probably need a time out.

quote:

Originally posted by Clayman:
Nice!! That looks like a fantastic idea that has a lot of potential. I've always wondered what it would be like to shoot a classic 577 double, but never had the $$ or the generosity of a buddy to let me borrow one. The Nyati has too many loading variables, and the T-Rex went right out the window for the reasons listed above and is further assisted by the shaky ground on which A-Square's been standing as of late.

As far as those questioning the "not that bad" recoil comment - how bad could it be? It's certainly below the levels offered up by the T-Rex and the Nyati, and would probably simulate a 577 double, assuming a 'reasonable' weight hunting rifle. I'll be dog-earing this post to follow along with the progress.

The only drawback I could see to this is the cost of the components. Certainly, a 577 caliber rifle burns a lot of powder, and there are definitely no plinking bullets available. As long as the brass comes in under $2ea and is readily available, it should fit within most big bore shooters' budgets.

thanks clayman...

i will have to confer with ed on the price per piece on the brass but the case design allows for many firings per case so you will get more milage per case.

glad you "get it" in terms of the philosophy of the project.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:


Seriously, if you go the extra mile to do rather than just post, and if you post what you know and have done rather than speculation posted as fact, I for one would take you more seriously, not that you should care what I think.

Charles, I do not think you are being fair.

So Boom does not - yet - have a big bore - so what? Is this not a grand idea? Should not Ed's support and enthusiasm count for something? Would it be a better idea if he owned a .458 Lott and a .470 AR and had been to Africa twice?


Boom has a lot of ideas, some shine, others are easily forgotten, but even John Moses Browning had ideas that went to shaite.

He makes wildcats, you shoot big-bores, we are all having fun!

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

business has been bad in the mortgage industry if you keep up with that stuff...i have had to give up cigars and scotch the last 6mo...

i hope to get out there soon and i am finishing up my other gun first.

Good luck as we have all seen where the mortgage business is going. I can sympathize as my industry went through a meltdown a few years ago.

There is nothing wrong with enthusiasm to a degree.

Sorry to come off so critical today. I probably need a time out.

wounds from a friend can be trusted

i need the critical comments to refine the project to make it better...

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:


Seriously, if you go the extra mile to do rather than just post, and if you post what you know and have done rather than speculation posted as fact, I for one would take you more seriously, not that you should care what I think.

Charles, I do not think you are being fair.

So Boom does not - yet - have a big bore - so what? Is this not a grand idea? Should not Ed's support and enthusiasm count for something? Would it be a better idea if he owned a .458 Lott and a .470 AR and had been to Africa twice?


Boom has a lot of ideas, some shine, others are easily forgotten, but even John Moses Browning had ideas that went to shaite.

He makes wildcats, you shoot big-bores, we are all having fun!

thanks for the support bent...yes some are forgetable... i like to think i have gotten better not comparing myself to beethoven but he was deaf and wrote some good music...

most of what i have learned about guns i have learned here on ar so this is really an ar group thing not so much a me thing. this came together with the advise and input of others here. without other members here this would be nothing. thank you everyone

that is what makes this place so great...have ideas and come together to make ideas better and have fun doing it while sharing experiences with like minded people.

Ed here-I have a simliar longer case in
my Enfield. It's my 585HE. I can tell you
from shooting 750gr fromm 2000 fps up to
2800 fps, that a 2050 load is a pussycat.
Now this case won't do 3000 with 650gr
or 2800 with 750gr but it will do as good as
Nyati and Trex. I will be able to do load
developement with my long case and some
hard wads I have for filler to get loads same
as what the 585Mag holds. It will also have expansion ratio same when I do, that so
the results will be accurate. Here is pic
for comparison. Left 585 Belted Mag, Center
600OK, right my 585HE.Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Ed here-I have a simliar longer case in
my Enfield. It's my 585HE. I can tell you
from shooting 750gr fromm 2000 fps up to
2800 fps, that a 2050 load is a pussycat.
Now this case won't do 3000 with 650gr
or 2800 with 750gr but it will do as good as
Nyati and Trex. I will be able to do load
developement with my long case and some
hard wads I have for filler to get loads same
as what the 585Mag holds. It will also have expansion ratio same when I do, that so
the results will be accurate. Here is pic
for comparison. Left 585 Belted Mag, Center
600OK, right my 585HE.Ed.

those are some beauties!

i must admit... i think our 585 magnum is the best (putting on my asbestos suit) i think the 585 magnum is best suited for mere mortals...

Bent, I will not respond as I am trying to be less grouchy this afternoon.

BS -- Beethoven! Please...

lol! charles...glad you caught that.

i may be little but i caught myself a big chicken
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvYue3QDuNM

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Left 585 Belted Mag, Center
600OK, right my 585HE.Ed.

WOW! that's a lotta oomph!

lots of oomph at a good price point.

torque...you have the donor gun already if that cz550 416 rigby starts feeling anemic for you.

one of the good things about the 585's is the decent bullet selection for the larger end of big bores and cast bullets up to 1,150 grains...those banded solids look good
smurfs up...

if anyone is interested in having a dummy round let me know. i am thinking about having a small batch made for those interested... myself included. maybe if we find out the cost per, how many and just send a few bucks we could have one for our collections or to see how many down in a mag we can get ect...

hope y'all are having as much fun as i am.

Neal has the cases, I made a deal to convert
them for him, please work with him.
I have 3 extras here I will make for boomie,
seing as how he got this started.ED

great work ed in getting the brass figured out!
thanks a bunch