Boomie & Ed,

DEAl: I will send you some 505 cylindrical brass. You make me some formed cases, and get a reamer.
I'll build a rifle for it and get to tinkering. I expect four weeks after you get me the reamer I will drop the hammer of the first round. I think I have a source for some bullets. A gentleman and I are working on some for my 475 Gibbs and the 550. With the disappointment of Bauska's closing, I am scrambling for a 550 barrel. I now have the 475 barrel here at the shop and an M34 Remington to screw it on... Dave Manson made me the reamer this spring along with the 550. You work on the reamer, I'll get a rifle built for it and do some load work.

Rich
DRSS

Rich
DRSS

that sounds great rich! anyone else want to make one to offset the reamer??? i will talk with ed. ed said he will get the reamer specs for the project. i will inquire with ed to the cost of the reamer.

quote:

i will inquire with ed to the cost of the reamer.

Probably about 1/4 the cost of an iPhone.

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:

quote:

i will inquire with ed to the cost of the reamer.

Probably about 1/4 the cost of an iPhone.

Cheers,
Canuck

lol!

my company supplies my phone...

maybe, Dave Manson likes me and the crazy ideas I call him about...

Rich
DRSS

Boomstick- repeat after me. I will buy, build or steal a real big bore rifle and learn how to shoot it! Then I will conjur up wildcats!
BTW -I developed the 12 GaFH. Ed however, did all the heavy lifting with load development.
-Rob

thanks for the correction rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Boomstick- repeat after me. I will buy, build or steal a real big bopre rifle and learn how to shoot it! Then I will conjur up wildcats!
BTW -I developed the 12 GaFH. Ed however, did all the heavy lifting with load development.
-Rob

this is not a "me" project but the collaberation of some great people here on ar. i hope to be as successful and as experienced as rob and his creations some day. nobody is getting rich or famous on this but i hope that some will build them and have a good time shooting and hunting with them.

Boomstick- Unfortunately, there is no substitute for real experience. No one with any brains follows the lead of the inexperienced into territory like what a 585 NYATI can dish out. Trust me, your 45-70 isn't even a warm up.
I still don't get exactly why you don't belly up and buy any real BIGBORE? I don't buy the cost stuff. You seem like a nice guy and you might get some respect if you actually spent some time shooting big bores and really learning about them. Just some sage advise- once again!-Rob

i have collaberated with others here that have experience to spare and i will soon enough get my big bore in hands...fear not my good man...i expected to be brought to the woodshed by you when i posted this and i am actualy suprised it took this long. rich and ed will be doing all the hard stuff that requires the experience and knowledge that i aim to obtain. to climb everest you have to climb the foothills i know and that is what i am doing. i have the mighty rich and ed as sherpas so i am not afraid

Besides Ed- Just how many of you have swaged a belt onto a case? It is harder than you think!. You ain't gonna do it with a lee loader. A Hyrdaulic press works best. Been there and done that! Remember the belt controls headspace. get it too short and you have case separations. Too long, it won't chamber. Why would you do that when .600OK cases are available from Jamison and AHR and Horneber? The whole point of the NYATI was power and easy feeding through a bolt gun. if you want reduced loads go to a .577NE. Heym makes one as I remember. Heck I'll let you shoot my .600NE Heym ONCE! That will cure you or hospitalize you.
BTW - Fritz 454 and I did the 585/ .600ok belted .585 Nyati's probably 7 years ago. I think I even have a chambered barrel somewhere. In the end I wasn't impressed. We also did a 3.2 inch 585/.600Ok that would hit 2700fps with a 750 woodleigh. Unfortunately it was only chambered in a Ruger No1 and kicked like hell.-Rob

quote:

BTW - Fritz 454 and I did the 585/ .600ok belted .585 Nyati's probably 7 years ago.

How's he doing? I miss his posting but know he has not been able to post much.

WE wouldn't be doing this 585 if it wasn't simple and a garage half full of cases.Boxes and Boxes.
We are talking many thousands of cases.
And I don't push or crimp or wrinkle on a
belt, but make belt accurate and swage case to shape,
and these cases will hold anyhing
that a gun or primer can hold.
And a guy could use OK brass to make
a short 585, shorter than my
585, with a shoulder and neck.but not me
as I believe in straight sides
and belts only. The thousands of cases in
the garage made the project go. If there is demand
I can convert them all before the end of 08.
I've had small brass orders others are to do and
its taking months/years and sometime never.Ed.

thanks ed...

I love big bores.. the bigger the better.
After 2 years, i have finally gotten used to the recoil of full power 505 gibbs: 600 gr @ 2400 fps.
Now I wonder if a larger bullet at a slower velocity might be eqully efficacious. the 585 @ 2100 has a certain appeal, especially after reading about the penetration of the 50 alaskan on this forum. How many members think a 750 gr bullet @2100 will be more comfortable to shoot and eficacious on elly than a 505 @ 2400 (which, for me , is MAXIMUM load)
I am thinking about the 500 AHR or similr, NOT the bone cruching 577 T rex!

indlovu...this recoil calculator will help you

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm

I predict-You'll find terrible penetration with 577 woodleigh soft points at 2300fps. Basicaly they ball up 6 inches in and deliver a ton of tissue damage but dont penetrate much further. Flat point Bridger solids were another beast indeed. They had incredible penetration and made a deep and true.585 hole right through anything in their way. I only shot my Nyati at 2400fps but it sure won't improve at 2100. Ask Jeffe about what that gun would do. At a STC hunt I shot a deer with it and it looked like it had a beer can run through it. A Hydraulic stop!-Rob

Er?.........Uh? Pardon me gentlemen but exactly why is there a need to make something so similar and less powerful? than what you guys have already developed? You might consider saving yourselves a ton of time and $$$$$$ and just cut the top off a few some BMG cases and stuff a .700 - .727 solid in em. Makes a nice 3" case thats FAIRLY heavy duty with cheap brass available anywhere on the planet. I believe SSK did this with a small shoulder too.

i have posted a few times on this thread that i like the idea of classic velocities so the bullets will be within the functional inpact velocities.

hard cast flat points would be neet i think up to 2,200 fps but tests need to be done and the solids and x bullets will be good for as fast as people want to go.

maybe some custom bullets with a stronger jacket might be good.

the classic 750 grains @ 2050 of the nitro express was the standard for elephant hunting and for me that will be great.

this can be done on a cz550 quite cheap by rebarreling a 416 rigby.

and 20 cases will last a long time by design.

Macifej-- We are doing that also.
My 3.25" 700H made from bmg cases. Only thing is they won't work in regular actions.
I have a bubbad enfield action I will test it
in but nobody else should do it.
Certain cartridges have a place I think.
And being I think belted straight is mom and
apple pie in ranking, there is Neals 550 Mag,
there is our new 585 Belted mag, there is
Rob's belted 600 OK, and there is my
700H 3.25. Each case the absolute best for irs
bore size. And I don't want anyone to only
pick one but try to get the whole bunch.
Which is why I work at figuring out ways
to make it all affordable.Ed

RGB,

why Rob, if I didn't know better I would think that Boomie is at the same identical stage of development you were with Ed on the 12GA FH. You had a bright (to you) idea and Ed actually went and is making it happen...isn't that just what Boomie is doing here with his 585 Belted case? With the possible exception of HIS 585 being a much more practical design, that we can all afford, that will only require swaging a belt on an existing case? We do know one thing, his design, using the 505 Gibbs cylindrical case will fit and feed with very little monkey-monkey using a P14 bolt in a P14/17/M30/34/35. Heck, Ed can supply anybody that wants one or two with formed cases for a few yankee dollars.

The way you go on, and on, and on, and on... about how ferocious the recoil of the 585 T-Rex is; I would expect a better design like this one would have you out charging around in that high zoot shop of yours, tracer boring a barrel and turning out your own cases or buying them from Ed by end of the week.

Boomie is in the process of doing a better mousetrap, one that will mimic the great 577NE power levels except allow the judicious handloader to exceed the 750gr bullet @2050fps by at least 200fps. The factory loads developed just over 7100ft/lbs of muzzle energy, and this one may approach 8000ft/lbs at 2250 or a bit more MV.
All this in a rifle, based on an enfield, that could be built for less than $1500. Even dies, and a hundred each cases and bullets will keep the budget to a very doable $2K.

Be happy, and try not to rain on other people's parades before the baton twirling high school girls get past my lawnchair!!

regards,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Each case the absolute best for irs
bore size

i think he means "each case is the absolute best for ITS bore size"

great compliment ed

Not to digress to much here - but what made you choose 3.25" for the case length rather than 3.00" since the 3.00" length gets rid of the "junk" and leaves an unmolested new case which has not been previously bent?

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Not to digress to much here - but what made you choose 3.25" for the case length rather than 3.00" since the 3.00" length gets rid of the "junk" and leaves an unmolested new case which has not been previously bent?

the 585 belted magnum is a 3" case able to work fine in a cz550

Boom-pole! I was referring to the modification of a BMG case as Ed is using in his 700HE. True that not likely any off the rack bolt actions will support a BMG based case. Would need a .875 bolt diameter or there abouts.

Could use a MAC 50 repeater action though!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Boom-pole! I was referring to the modification of a BMG case as Ed is using in his 700HE. True that not likely any off the rack bolt actions will support a BMG based case. Would need a .875 bolt diameter or there abouts.

Could use a MAC 50 repeater action though!

oh, sorry...promise i was not fishing for a fight

I picked the 3.25 inch lenght(700H) as the
loaded length is 3.90", and goes in my
test Enfield fine single shot, and will
go into the the MRC PH action that has a
big bolt, has a 4" mag box planned, but is only halfway in size from regular to a McBros bmg
actiom. In reality for the best use of the case it should be longer like my 3.87" 700HE
which give a better lenght to diameter of the
combustion process. But we compromize knowing that any bigger action needed for diameter,
in between regular and McBros BMG size,
will be longer also compared to regular
cartridge actions.So why skimp, as any extra
lenth allows lower pressures, brass last longer,
etc.When fireformed the case come out smooth
from the shoulder on up. Ed.

Idaho Sharpshooter- I have no problems with you and Boomie having a idea. It would just be nice if it were a good one. I just don't think much of this cartridge thats all. Thats my honest opinion. I would not put my time and effort into it. Whats the matter can't take a little difference of opinion? You certainly seem to get pretty unglued when anyone challenges you. Chill out! This forum is about debate if you can't take it, too bad. T-Rex recoil? What are you taking about? Have you ever really shot a T-Rex for that matter? Tell the truth!

I'm also a little disturbed as many others are of the endless posts about wildcats that Boomie will never shoot or build. It would be a different story if we actually saw some real guns and the results of his experiments, but no all we get is post after post of wildcats from a guy with absolutely no BIG bore shooting, building or real designing experience. Yup the world really needs a loaded down NYATI. Next he'll put a belt on a .22. I suspect we will be waiting until Ed builds a gun as I doubt it will otherwise happen. TALK is CHEAP! Lets see some results for once puhLEEZE!
Basically the difference is I put my money time and skills into making my ideas happen. No bullshit just results, that simple. I've also had way more experience with over .50 DGR cartridges than 98% of the people here especially including both of you. I don't make them up unless I'm commited to make them work. You and Boomie were not even posting on AR and thus made no contribution whatsoever to the development of the .600Ok, 550 Magnum or 12 GaFH and thats a fact. You also obviously never read our posts on the .585/.600ok and its varients. What you have learned came from reading the posts of the folks who did make the contributions and put up their hard earned money and time. Where do you think AHR got the idea of the 585 AHR from?
I also dislike it when people don't take the time to get the facts correct for who invented certain cartridges. Its a mark of poor character to take credit for the ideas of others without crediting them. You get what I'm saying?
Boomie you going to put any real money into this? Should we take up a collection?
Basically lets see you guys deliver. Talk is cheap!-Rob

debate is good. i dont like pissing threads although they are fun to read sometimes. rob, i do what i can and i am sorry if you dont like my posts. i would say put me on ignore but your experience and perspective i do find helpful albeit harsh most of the time. even a clock is right twice a day and i like to think i am right on this one even if some disagree. i trust ed and rich and others here who's opinions and input that has made this happen so if you dont like it thats ok live and let live.

in time i will be able to get some of these creations finished. till then feel free to put me on ignore.

Rich will do the first one, as the cases are
coming to convert, he will be talking to Manson
tomorrow, and so will I. He has an action,
will order a barrel, plans on shooting by
middle of October. I can shoot test loads
in next couple weeks as needed in my long
version. But Rob we all know how hard it is
to get things done on a planned schedule,
as you and us all got run through the wringer
waiting on OK brass, other things for the
OK, the group wainting on barrels for the
550 Mag, the wait on PH actions, waiting
for12GA FH barrels.. So if Rich gets it going
by deer season he will be a miracle man,
basesd on the gun industry past doings.
We wil lwork on Boomie to get him
Bigborized so to speak.Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Rich will do the first one, as the cases are
coming to convert, he will be talking to Manson
tomorrow, and so will I. He has an action,
will order a barrel, plans on shooting by
middle of October. I can shoot test loads
in next couple weeks as needed in my long
version. But Rob we all know how hard it is
to get things done on a planned schedule,
as you and us all got run through the wringer
waiting on OK brass, other things for the
OK, the group wainting on barrels for the
550 Mag, the wait on PH actions, waiting
for12GA FH barrels.. So if Rich gets it going
by deer season he will be a miracle man,
basesd on the gun industry past doings.
We wil lwork on Boomie to get him
Bigborized so to speak.Ed.

this is part of the beauty of this idea...

the brass is avaliable now
the barrels are avaliable now
the same with actions and donor guns (cz550 an easy conversion)
the costs are minimal
it can be done as fast as a reamer can be made
and i dont think classic 577 nitro velocities are anything to sneeze at...plenty o dead elephants have done all the field testing needed.
if it didnt work the $15,000 it costs to have a 577 nitro made is pretty high.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Boomstick- repeat after me. I will buy, build or steal a real big bopre rifle and learn how to shoot it! Then I will conjur up wildcats!
BTW -I developed the 12 GaFH. Ed however, did all the heavy lifting with load development.
-Rob

hehe, now guys, aren't we mixing oranges and apples here?
How many rocket-scinetists have ever been to the moon?
Would 1000 rounds through a .458 Lott make him a better wildcatter?

Designing a cat is to ponder how one can make a cartridge from another case.
If a .600 OK is super, the .550 Magnum is super, a belted Gibbs with a .585 bullet should be super to.
What would a sore shoulder help him with?
Load development? Ok, there comes practic in handy, but he has never done that, just come up with ideas about case-construction.
Operating in the action? Again, if both the .550 and .600 will work, why should not a .585 with a simmilar design work?

Were would the world be, if only engineers who had money to build their ideas could engineer?

A gun is already beeing planned , whats not to like?

thanks bent...ever a level head and voice of sanity

quote:

Originally posted by Bent Fossdal:
How many rocket-scinetists have ever been to the moon?

I think you are confusing rocket scientists and astronauts.

And yes, some trigger time with big bores would give a lot more meaning to the advice Boom Stick freely gives everyone without ever having done it himself.

It is not about this one wildcat, it is the zillion wild cats a week, with no real effort on most to bring them to fruition except to try to get someone else to spend the money and do the work.

Okay, I will give myself a time out now.

quote:

Would 1000 rounds through a .458 Lott make him a better wildcatter?

Building one, or having one built to your spec, and subsequently shooting and developing loads for it sure would. But I don't think that is the whole point.

I think when people that get annoyed with Boomie's endless enthusiasm for brainstorming, its when:
A) he makes statements that (or in a way that) should only be made by those that have "been there and done that" (ie. how could a guy that has never shot anything bigger than a 45/70 have a clue that the recoil from a 585 Magnum would be "not bad"?), or
B) when it seems he is trying to spend other peoples money to do his projects or constantly imposing on others facilitate his obsession (resizing carts and mailing them for free), or
C) especially when he interrupts other people's threads to "improve" their design, or state that their tried and true cartridge would be better if.... etc, etc (that is insulting at best, and worse from a guy with no experience or investment in it other than intellectual).

Boomie, as far as I am concerned, keep up your good work, keep on learning and brainstorming and dreaming. It is good to see someone as excited about wildcatting as you are. And if you keep the above "tough-love" in mind, you'll probably rub a few less people the wrong way along the way.

How's that for a level head and voice of sanity, eh?

Cheers,
Canuck

RGB,

not dissing you, just saying this cartridge is not going to be screwed by outside control of the project.

1. You should applaud Boomstick for his ability and willingness to "dream" as you put it. If Ross Seyfried had
not "dreamed" up a bolt gun replacement for his .577NE nobody would be doing .58's today. So, the actual
credit has to go to him. So, with due credit also given to people who have piggybacked off of his idea...

2. The reason people aren't building 585 Nyati's?
The reason people aren't building 585 T-REx's?
Brass; quality and availability issues beyond the control of the shooter.

3. Neal has half a pickup load of brass. All it needs is someone like Boomie or myself to "dream" up a
way to turn it from scrap to treasure. 550 Gibbs, and now the 585 Belted Magnum Express.
Enter ED Hubel God Bless 'im! Boomie takes an idea and gets Ed to make a couple belted cases. They turn
out great. Boomie Emails and talks with me on the phone, and gets me wound up about the project. I just
picked up another P14 for the rifle. Got a barrel ordered this morning. Depending on...the rifle could
fire it's first shots in 4-6 weeks. Does that fit your criteria for "doing" something? I am now subject to
a reamer makers schedule and arrival of a barrel.

Unlike your previous fiascoes, the three principals here, Boomstick, Ed Hubel, and I have total control of the project. You did not, and Ed has filled me in on the little house of horrors you went thru. That ain't gonna happen this time. WE GOT IT ALL TOGETHER...AND WE KNOW WHERE WE PUT IT!!! It is happening as I type here. The 585 with a 750gr bullet as fast as you can stand to shoot them is here and now! Be happy for us!

This could be a $1000 rifle for a guy who can do his own stock finishing.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
RGB,

not dissing you, just saying this cartridge is not going to be screwed by outside control of the project.

1. You should applaud Boomstick for his ability and willingness to "dream" as you put it. If Ross Seyfried had
not "dreamed" up a bolt gun replacement for his .577NE nobody would be doing .58's today. So, the actual
credit has to go to him. So, with due credit also given to people who have piggybacked off of his idea...

2. The reason people aren't building 585 Nyati's?
The reason people aren't building 585 T-REx's?
Brass; quality and availability issues beyond the control of the shooter.

3. Neal has half a pickup load of brass. All it needs is someone like Boomie or myself to "dream" up a
way to turn it from scrap to treasure. 550 Gibbs, and now the 585 Belted Magnum Express.
Enter ED Hubel God Bless 'im! Boomie takes an idea and gets Ed to make a couple belted cases. They turn
out great. Boomie Emails and talks with me on the phone, and gets me wound up about the project. I just
picked up another P14 for the rifle. Got a barrel ordered this morning. Depending on...the rifle could
fire it's first shots in 4-6 weeks. Does that fit your criteria for "doing" something? I am now subject to
a reamer makers schedule and arrival of a barrel.

Unlike your previous fiascoes, the three principals here, Boomstick, Ed Hubel, and I have total control of the project. You did not, and Ed has filled me in on the little house of horrors you went thru. That ain't gonna happen this time. WE GOT IT ALL TOGETHER...AND WE KNOW WHERE WE PUT IT!!! It is happening as I type here. The 585 with a 750gr bullet as fast as you can stand to shoot them is here and now! Be happy for us!

This could be a $1000 rifle for a guy who can do his own stock finishing.

regards,

Rich
DRSS

thanks rich...awesome post.

canuck... thanks for the constructive criticism. i do what i can...i have cheerleaded other peoples projects and wildcats and sent money to make them happen not a lot but i do what i can and i have bought and sent brass and bullets from my own wallet as far away as norway. i am as excited over others ideas as well as mine. i am getting one of jeffeosso's designed carts and building my own rifle in it. it will be done soon enough and that will help some here give me more credit although i dont think it is essential. i am building one because i like the idea. when that is done i can build one of my own ideas. i am just an average guy who loves shooting and wildcats that feels the pinch when he just paid almost $200 on brakes worn down to the metal this morning and cant afford a haircut right now...damn my hair is getting long...

lets not make this thread about me but the cartridge that is being made by a colaberation of great people minus me. this project has had a lot of lucky breaks and smooth sailing so far backed up by other competant people. be happy and watch the fun and if you like join in. this is about creating something worthy with a genuine niche and having fun. if anyone wants to make rain the parade will still go on and those involved will enjoy the ride and the satisfaction of accomplishment.