I would be curious to know what the stockmaker was dreaming the night before he made the stock and forend of this double.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
458 Win Mag Westley Richards double
Anyone got $70,000?
Might have to sell a few organs.

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101091018

I don't think I'd be willing to part with any organs for that hideous rifle.

I'm normally a WR fan, big time, but that thing is awful. Cartoonish animal engravings, the beavertail fore-end, and what the actual F*** is up with the stock/cheek piece? On a fine double?

All that before we even discuss the lack of rim for a DG DR.

Nope!!!

I agree on all your points, Todd, it has a peculiarity only exceeded by Blasers. However, as a collector's item it would have a greater degree of rarity.

Were it dropped in my lap, I might find a corner in my cupboard for it.
(NB: this is an edited version, though RIP has set the first one in concrete. That others had added posts was unknown when I redacted it.)

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I agree on all your points, Todd, but maybe as a collector's item, it would have great individuality.

Were it dropped in my lap, I might find a corner in my cupboard for it.

Ditto.

416Tanzan,
Thanks for that link, showing lion/buffalo capability of the .458 WIN with 400-grain GSC HV:



Fantastic!
Big DG buffalo, medium DG lion, proof is in the pudding.
I hope to see how they react to small non-DG like Bambi, next month.

Rip ...

Seems to me that if I was going with a 45 cal double rifle & avoiding the limitations of a magazine, instead of the 458 Win Mag, I'd consider a 450 3.25 NE.

Regarding the CZ 550 Magnum that came from the factory as a .458 WIN and was hand reamed to .458 Lott because the barrel was too difficult to get off:

The GUNSMITH did a relief cut on the barrel where it meets the receiver ring.
Then locked in barrel vice with lead blocks, the action wrench was applied.
A 3-foot cheater pipe was placed on the wrench handle.
A +300-pound assistant put all his weight on the cheater pipe's end.
The GUNSMITH struck the end of the cheater pipe covering the wrench handle with a 5-pound hammer, IIRC from the telling.
After about 10 blows of the hammer the barrel and action began to unscrew.

CZ must have used a barrel installation technique involving epoxy, for a brief time in the past.

Another CZ .458 WIN barrel that came off another action easily since it was not epoxied at factory,
will be fitted, installed, square and true and sights timed,
set back a thread or two, and re-chambered from .458 WIN to .458 WIN.

Rip ...

Sounds like CZ figured the barrel wouldn't be taken off. Hey Hey 85!!

That WR Double looks like it was made for a Continental customer. I kinda like it. Not 70 thousand dollars worth tho.

Ray B . I concur with the 450 Rigby 3 1/4 . Much as I like the 458 Winchester, gotta give credit where credit is due. If one is getting a double rifle anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
Has anyone on here tried SR4759, TrailBoss or the similar V powder for reduced loads in the 458 Win Mag? If so, please save me the trouble of re-inventing the loads.

Two of the posts before last couple of replies by me have been from iphone at huntin'camp.
I have been doing the muzzleloader-deer thing this past weekend, with a Lyman Breakaway Mustang and a Nikon 1X fixed power scope.
I had my crosshairs on Bambi's Mom, but just couldn't pull the trigger.
Saving the tag for the .458 WIN.

The muzzleloader was zeroed 1" high at 50 yards, and good to 170 yards (less than 4" low at 170 yards) if I could ever see that far in the woods.
Unlikely.
That was with the Hornady .50-cal "Low Drag" (red plastic) sabot/300-gr, .452-cal SST, sitting over 150 grains of Hodgdon's 777 (3 of the 50/50 pellets).
10 years ago a similar load, in same rifle, with the old black plastic sabot and a 2.5X scope was a bugholer for 3 shots at 100 yards, dead-on,
1942 fps 5-yard velocity average for 3 shots.

This year I got two shots into the same hole at 50-yards, sighted 1 inch high, with the 1X Nikon.
I am calling it about 1950 fps MV from the 26" barrel on the Mustang inline/209.

That strikes me as a very good deer load for the woods.
So would be loads like Ray B is asking about, using jacketed bullets in the .458 WIN.
Turn the .458 WIN into a 45/70 Govt!
AA-5744 will do it all, my pick (see cast bullets earlier in thread). I stick to 1400 fps or less with 500-grainers and lead bullets.
Use jacketed bullets and go faster with "reduced" loads in the .458 WIN.
But here are some manual loads for jacketed bullets with SR4759 that I would like to try.
Sorry, no interest in Trail Boss for me, can't do it all.

Lee Second Ed. manual:
510-grain Jacketed SP bullet
IMR-SR4759 39.6 gr (Lee dipper 3.7cc) >>> 1482 fps
IMR-SR4759 44.5 gr (maximum) >>> 1645 fps <<< 52,400 CUP 3.340" COL

Speer Manual #14:
400-gr FNSP
IMR-SR4759 26.0 gr >>> 1262 fps
IMR-SR4759 30.0 gr (max) >>> 1445 fps COL 3.125"

Australian Nick Harvey recommended this in one of his books:
400-gr jacketed
IMR-SR4759 30.0 grains (starting load) >>> 1400 fps
IMR-SR4759 34.0 grains (maximum load) >>> 1570 fps

As good a bunch of brush loads for deer as there is, if brush bucking by bullets is possible.
And I do have 8 pounds of IMR-SR4759, and 8 pounds of AA-XMP5744. No Trail Boss on hand.

Assuming 24" barrel for the above and the below:
Somewhere around 45.0 grains (start) to 50.0 grains (maximum) of AA-5744
with any 400-405 grain jacketed bullet
ought to go 1800 to 2100 fps and approach maximum pressure in the SAAMI .458 WIN near 50.0 grains.
That would out-do Elmer's .45-70 Brush Bucker.
And you can still do +2450 fps with shortCOL loads in a standard SAAMI .458 WIN, using AA-2230, if the 400-grain bullet is tough enough to take it.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Ray B . I concur with the 450 Rigby 3 1/4 . Much as I like the 458 Winchester, gotta give credit where credit is due. If one is getting a double rifle anyway.

Have not those stuck with .458 WIN double rifles had them re-chambered to .450 NE 3.25"?
Does it not just require re-work of the extractors/ejectors for the flanged cartridge?
Usually with no re-regulation required?
Sort of like cleaning up a decrepit 450/400 "Magnum" NE 3.25" by rechambering it with the 450/400 NE 3", according to Graeme Wright.

Really now, a new metaphor is needed to describe a .458 WIN WR droplock double rifle.
It defeats the purpose of the .458 WIN. Makes a good thing bad.
Not quite like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
More like drowning the baby in the bubble bath.

Rip ...

If that featherweight .458 WIN barrel will shoot, it will be a hoot!
It will be tried on a Winchester M70 Classic Safari Express action from a .416 Remington Magnum donor rifle, with 3.6" magazine box length.
The B&C Medalist-type stock will be used.
If it does not shoot worth a hoot, the rifle will be re-barreled with a virgin No.4 Sporter contour,
which could be lighter, without the integral features of the CZ take-off barrel.
Especially so if that virgin barrel is cut down to featherweight contour, and left slick, no iron sights.
If the 3.6" Classic WinCZechster (Ultima) shoots as well as the 3.4" Pre-'64 WinCZechster (Chimera),
then I will organize a hootenanny and get them both Cerakoted black to celebrate their coming out.
Big Sister 3.8" CZ .458 WIN will get matte-blacked too, if she shoots worth a hoot.
I wonder if Steve Martin would play banjo at the .458 WIN Hootenanny?

Rip ...

You have been busy, RIP! I'm most impressed with your reloading advice.

If this is not heresy in the halls of 458WM, I don't suppose you or Nick Harvey have any neat .45-70 loads involving cast bullets between 465 and 500 grains, preferably using Win 748, Re-7 or H4198/AR2207?

They don't have to be too hot as I only want them for my Miroku Winchester 86.

How do I dare to air these matters here? Well, the groove diameter should approximate .458", The rifle is a Winchester and the cartridge would have been a magnum of its time, esp. with the velocities people get out of it now

If you're going to have a hootenanny you should of had Jack Linkletter as Master of Ceremony. Sadly, he passed away about 11 years ago. Maybe that other guy, I forget his name, that had the College events, may still be available.

Ray B,
Maybe Chuck Woolery would MC?
I used to live nextdoor to him in Morehead, KY when he was a college student there, and I was a grade-schooler.
Like in "Dumb & Dumber" there may be a chance of that.

sambarman338,
I do not have anything from Nick Harvey, as he only went to 400-grain weight, no higher, in my .45-70 reference.
I just quit lever action .45-70 load searching after finding Elmer Keith's load.
400-grainer and 53.0 grains of IMR-3031 for about 1800 fps.
I use it with both hard cast bullets and jacketed.
Always great in my Marlin 1895 and Miroku Winchester 1886.
You can use the ADI equivalent (something like BMk2 ???) of Hodgdon's BENCHMARK. I substitute BENCHMARK for the IMR-3031 in everything nowadays:
Elmer's Load improved.

53.0 grains of RL-7 got 400-grainers over 2000 fps and loosened every screw in a Marlin 1895 after only 3 shots.
I do not recommend that in a Winchester 1886 either.
It would be good in a Ruger No.1.

The WIN 1886 and Marlin 1895 are about equal in strength, but you can use longer loads in the 1886, as long as the .45-90 loads,
if the bullet will fit into the chamber throat, and noses are flat for the tubular magazine.

A fun load with 500-grain Barnes Original RNSP in the .45-70 single shots is 45.0 grains of VARGET for 1314 fps MV in a 28" barrel. ADI substitution would be AR-2208.
Try that with cast or jacketed 500-grainers.
It would probably do well with your 460-grain lead bullets too, maybe about 1400 fps.

Western Powders Handloading Guide:
AA-5744 charge of 30.5 grains maximum with 460-grain gas-checked lead boolit (WFNGC) is supposed to do 1444 fps from a 24" barrel, at 27,200 psi, 2.550" COL.

It is fun to make a .458 WIN kick like a .45-70 Govt. old school load, but also fun to make a .45-70 lever action kick like a .45-90,
and do it with more bullet and less powder than the old 300-grain "Express" loads used in the .45-90 WCF.

Rip ...

sambarman338,

Round-nose cast lead bullets can easily be made into flat-nosed bullets.
Any of the lead-tipped RNSP jacketed bullets, with plenty of lead exposed, can be flat-pointed with an FN seater plug.
Consider the Woodleigh Weldcore 500-grain and 550-grain bullets.
Also Ye Olde Barnes Original RNSP bullets of 500-grain and 600-grain weight.
A canneluring tool helps too for the bullets lacking a cannelure or having a cannelure in the wrong place.
That could make for some interesting Winchester 1886 .45-70 loads.
You might even make it into the equivalent of a .45-90 Sharps 2.4" with 500-grain bullet.
With smokeless powder you can certainly out-Quigley all the old BP Sharps .45-caliber loads.

The .45-70 with a .458 WIN throat used in a Winchester 1886 would beat the .45-90 WCF all to hell!
I am going to add that to my "to do" list.
It would be very helpful with the Winchester 1886.
Exactly same difference in case lengths (0.3") as with the .458 WIN and the .458 "Loser" Lott.
This reply was for THE MISSION.
Thanks.

Rip ...

Thanks RIP,
you have given me so much info it will take me a month to digest it.

Nick Harvey only gets 1705 fps from 53gr of 3031 in the page I've got, but his BM-2 loads start at 55 grains, claiming 1855 fps - almost exactly the Marlin velocities he gives for AR2207 (H4198) though the latter powder does it with 8-9 grains less, so should have slightly less recoil.

I found an old Lyman manual on Cast Boolits that showed a powerful and apparently accurate load for 3031 and a 482gr gas-check bullet in their table for the original 86 Winchesters, but it was a compressed load I might find hard to fit with the short throat in my rifle. It started at 40 grains for 1451 fps and went to 46 grains max, which was the accurate one and gave 1677 fps.

Happily, the cast bullets I was given by a kind AR member have flat noses. The meplat corresponds almost exactly with the large rifle primer diameter. Is that flat enough?

I like your analogy of the .458s with the .45-70 and .45-90. Lengthening the throat has crossed my mind but there's a chance I'll get those 468-grain cast bullets to work hard enough in it without bothering.

Being a saving kind, I was hoping to use up a can of Win 748 I was given, loaded behind my 405gr Woodleighs. Nick Harvey manages to get to 1800 fps with 59 grains in the trapdoor table yet starts his Marlin table at 58 grains, which yielded only 1680 fps in that rifle.

What a difference a grain makes ♫

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
... the result is: even though the Lott has a greater powder capacity than the WinMag, because it is limited by magazine and chamber configurations its performance is limited to the point that there is little or no advantage.

Ray B,

That is a pearl of wisdom. You just caught the pop fly to center field.

If the SAAMI .458 WIN and the SAAMI .458 Lott are the chamberings for otherwise identical rifles,
the .458 Lott can only have an advantage with the short and light bullets.
Those are too short for the .458 WIN to take advantage of long COL loading to match or exceed the .458 Lott in either a 3.6" or 3.8" magazine length.
But 2700 fps with 300-grain TTSX or 2500 fps with 400-grain HV seem perfect to me, and accurate too, in the .458 WIN.

Make the bullets long and heavy enough, and the coned-up throat advantage takes over, so the .458 WIN is the winner, in either 3.6" or 3.8" magazine.

Jack Lott's original reamer was used on .458 WIN chambers leaving the residual .458 WIN throat on the chamber for 2.8" brass.
That is what made the early .458 Lott shine.

Initial CIP homologation of the .458 Lott added a complete .458 WIN throat atop the 2.8" chamber.
That was impossible to fully take advantage of by longer COL loading in a magazine rifle.
Subsequently CIP changed to agree with the initial SAAMI homologation of the .458 Lott in 2002,
which is the current, shorter, tighter throating of the .458 Lott.

This is the SAAMI .458 Lott that is loaded to 62,500 psi to get a 500-grainer of 3.6" maximum COL up to 2250 fps in a 24" barrel.

The SAAMI .458 WIN is loaded to 60,000 psi to get the same 500-grainer of 3.340" maximum COL up to 2200 fps in a 24" barrel.

In a 3.4" magazine box length for the .458 WIN with 24" barrel,
this linear relationship of bullet weight to velocity is easily attained:
300-grainer at 2700 fps
400-grainer at 2450 fps
500-grainer at 2200 fps

You can go even faster with longer COL when possible.
You can also go faster by loading the .458 WIN to higher pressure than 60,000 psi, when possible,
right on up to 62,500 psi like the .458 Lott.
Some times you can do both, and easily WIN, with higher velocity or lower pressure, or both, versus the .458 Lott.


Rip ...

Congratulations RIP;

You have brilliantly done the physics that can't be denied. Essentially, all you've written has been my experience from a CZ550 in .458 Win Mag. Although, I didn't have access to A2230 even being aware of it. It wasn't until I had completed my experiments that I was able to obtain a 1-pound can, after waiting for over a year. I still have most of that can, by the way.

But, what I discovered on my own, without help from Hornady, was that H335 was the best for the 500 Hor. RN in velocity and accuracy. Of course, like 2230, it's a ball powder allowing more of it to be used without compression. It turns out that Hornady now promotes it as their no.1 choice for their 500gr, as well in the .458 Lott. It also shows very well in the Hodgdon manual and is recommended by them. I also discovered that H4895 was nearly as good. At SAAMI 3.34" COL I was easily able to attain 2200 fps from either, though I still prefer H335 for case capacity reasons. At a COL of 3.51" for the 500 Hor., I was approaching 2300 fps from the 25" barrel with excellent accuracy. I use a Lee crimp die.

In my Ruger #1 in .45-70 with an "improved" throat by 0.30", and its 22" barrel, I was getting 2200 fps from the 500 Hor. and superb accuracy, and a bit over 2300 fps from the 450 AF. I don't post photos on the Internet, but there are lots on my blogs, including Chrony readings.

Today, my .458 WM is a Ruger Tropical No.1, recently acquired with Mag-na-ports. I'm in the process of giving it test drives. Being a single-shot, it will easily handle the 500 TSX at 3.8". But I have none of those. However, I still have some 450-X on hand, and multiple other choices. I've written some results from tests of the #1 Ruger Tropical in recent blogs. And, by the way, I'm closing in on 83 and have to be aware of potential retina detachment to my one good eye, so the Ruger #1 in .45-70 "Improved" (that only weighed 8.4 lbs ready to go) was "invested" in the #1 Tropical with the ports and an extra 2 lbs.

Thank you for your excellent work.

Bob Mitchell

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks RIP,
you have given me so much info it will take me a month to digest it.

Nick Harvey only gets 1705 fps from 53gr of 3031 in the page I've got, but his BM-2 loads start at 55 grains, claiming 1855 fps - almost exactly the Marlin velocities he gives for AR2207 (H4198) though the latter powder does it with 8-9 grains less, so should have slightly less recoil.

AR2207/H4198 is ideal in the .45-70 with any weight of bullets.
I just don't have any experience with heavy cast bullets and H4198 in the .45-70.
It is great in the .458 WIN with lighter bullets, like 300-350 grainers.
IIRC, Bob Mitchell worked wonders with H4198 and 350-grain TSX in the .458 WIN CZ 550 Magnum.

I found an old Lyman manual on Cast Boolits that showed a powerful and apparently accurate load for 3031 and a 482gr gas-check bullet in their table for the original 86 Winchesters, but it was a compressed load I might find hard to fit with the short throat in my rifle. It started at 40 grains for 1451 fps and went to 46 grains max, which was the accurate one and gave 1677 fps.

Happily, the cast bullets I was given by a kind AR member have flat noses. The meplat corresponds almost exactly with the large rifle primer diameter. Is that flat enough?

For safety's sake in a tubular magazine, I would have to tell you to flatten that nose to bigger diameter than just primer diameter.
That will also shorten the bullet a little and that might be helpful. Otherwise, just shoot them single-shot-loader style, until you get a nose flattening plug sorted out.

I like your analogy of the .458s with the .45-70 and .45-90. Lengthening the throat has crossed my mind but there's a chance I'll get those 468-grain cast bullets to work hard enough in it without bothering.


I need a .458 WIN throater-only reamer.
I have a Ruger No.1 .45-70 with 22" barrel of 1:20" twist,
a Miroku Model 1885 .45-70 with 28" barrel of 1:18" twist,
and a Miroku Model 1886 "Short Rifle" .45-70 with 20" barrel ...
I do not know what twist is on the 1886, I hope it is 1:18" also, need to check that.
The original 1886's had 1:20" for .45-70 Govt, and 1:32" for .45-90 WCF !!!

Being a saving kind, I was hoping to use up a can of Win 748 I was given, loaded behind my 405gr Woodleighs. Nick Harvey manages to get to 1800 fps with 59 grains in the trapdoor table yet starts his Marlin table at 58 grains, which yielded only 1680 fps in that rifle.

Nick Harvey has always been good for that stuff.
WIN748 is close enough to Benchmark/IMR-3031 to warrant using it up with Elmer Keith type loads.

What a difference a grain makes ♫

Barrel length may be a lot longer on the Trapdoor data than the Marlin data?
Must be modern replica Trapdoor. I would not shoot that kind of load in my dear old antique Trapdoor.

Rip ...

Bob,

Thanks for contributing to THE MISSION.
You may be considered a FOUNDING FATHER of THE MISSION.

I have to catch up on your blog.
I take it as gospel.

https://bigborefan.wordpress.com/


Rip ...

This thread started on July 6, 2017

Ron arrived on a 458 Rescue Mission on July 26, 2017.

The mission continues

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks RIP,
you have given me so much info it will take me a month to digest it.

Nick Harvey only gets 1705 fps from 53gr of 3031 in the page I've got, but his BM-2 loads start at 55 grains, claiming 1855 fps - almost exactly the Marlin velocities he gives for AR2207 (H4198) though the latter powder does it with 8-9 grains less, so should have slightly less recoil.

AR2207/H4198 is ideal in the .45-70 with any weight of bullets.
I just don't have any experience with heavy cast bullets and H4198 in the .45-70.
It is great in the .458 WIN with lighter bullets, like 300-350 grainers.
IIRC, Bob Mitchell worked wonders with H4198 and 350-grain TSX in the .458 WIN CZ 550 Magnum.

I found an old Lyman manual on Cast Boolits that showed a powerful and apparently accurate load for 3031 and a 482gr gas-check bullet in their table for the original 86 Winchesters, but it was a compressed load I might find hard to fit with the short throat in my rifle. It started at 40 grains for 1451 fps and went to 46 grains max, which was the accurate one and gave 1677 fps.

Happily, the cast bullets I was given by a kind AR member have flat noses. The meplat corresponds almost exactly with the large rifle primer diameter. Is that flat enough?

For safety's sake in a tubular magazine, I would have to tell you to flatten that nose to bigger diameter than just primer diameter.
That will also shorten the bullet a little and that might be helpful. Otherwise, just shoot them single-shot-loader style, until you get a nose flattening plug sorted out.

I like your analogy of the .458s with the .45-70 and .45-90. Lengthening the throat has crossed my mind but there's a chance I'll get those 468-grain cast bullets to work hard enough in it without bothering.


I need a .458 WIN throater-only reamer.
I have a Ruger No.1 .45-70 with 22" barrel of 1:20" twist,
a Miroku Model 1885 .45-70 with 28" barrel of 1:18" twist,
and a Miroku Model 1886 "Short Rifle" .45-70 with 20" barrel ...
I do not know what twist is on the 1886, I hope it is 1:18" also, need to check that.
The original 1886's had 1:20" for .45-70 Govt, and 1:32" for .45-90 WCF !!!

Being a saving kind, I was hoping to use up a can of Win 748 I was given, loaded behind my 405gr Woodleighs. Nick Harvey manages to get to 1800 fps with 59 grains in the trapdoor table yet starts his Marlin table at 58 grains, which yielded only 1680 fps in that rifle.

Nick Harvey has always been good for that stuff.
WIN748 is close enough to Benchmark/IMR-3031 to warrant using it up with Elmer Keith type loads.

What a difference a grain makes ♫

Barrel length may be a lot longer on the Trapdoor data than the Marlin data?
Must be modern replica Trapdoor. I would not shoot that kind of load in my dear old antique Trapdoor.

Rip ...

Thanks again RIP,
I'll chomp on those thoughts for a while, too.

Mine is a Lee three-die set, plus a factory-crimp die: any clues on where to get or how to make one of those FN seater plugs?

I suppose they still work with harder alloys? Since the main batch dropped to 468 grains from the original 477, which may not have been pure lead, either, I assume the 468-grainers are harder.

There is plenty of length in my 86 action (unlike the 94 Big Bore, which beguiles you with a long throat ), so the shorter bullet probably won't help. You might recall I toyed with the idea of having the .45-70's throat or chamber lengthened but finally put it in the too-hard basket.

Please forgive my quoting the quotes - just ringing the mission bell.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
This thread started on July 6, 2017

Ron arrived on a 458 Rescue Mission on July 26, 2017.

The mission continues

Yep, the .458 WIN is well and truly resuscitated.
We have saved another one.
The second coming of the .458 Winchester Magnum has made all other big bore rifles obsolete. Again!
Ha ha.

Rip ...

sambarman338,

That is a good one! Ringing THE MISSION bell.

If you are casting your own, then pick a big flat nose plug for pushing them through a Lyman Lubrisizer.

If you use a Lee sizer to size the bullets, try pushing them through the die base-first instead of nose first.

Does your Lee seater die have a big FN-fitting seater plug?
I have found that just seating the Barnes Originals with the FN seater plug instead of a RN or spire-point seater plug
is enough to give the soft lead exposed at the nose a good flattening.

Rip ...

.458 Only,

I glean here

https://bigborefan.wordpress.com/

that more .458 WIN load data may be forthcoming,
and maybe even another edition of your .458 WIN load manual?

What is the deal on your publishing?
Have you used any of the "on-demand" self-publishing of the book as hard copy so it would be available in the future?

Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell.

Rip ...

Sad news on the prospects for a hootenanny.
Apparently the CZ barrels that were glued on at the factory and removed by making relief cuts and +2400 ft-lbs of torque:
They are F'-ed as far as putting them back on a CZ 550 Magnum.
It is fussy to do, but it succeeded in producing a WinCzechster previously, using a Pre'-64 M70 action, spooky accurate rifle.
In that instance the major diameter of the Winchester barrel thread is the same as the minor diameter of the CZ barrel thread.
I am not even going to try it on a Connecticut Classic M70.
The GUNSMITH is swearing off of such trash as take-off barrel usage.
He is tired of humoring me.

Virgin barrels will be needed.
It is a far better thing to have tried and failed and then ended up with something better anyway.
I foresee a stainless McGowen, Douglas, Shilen, or PAC-NOR barrel or two.
1:14" twist, of course.
Picatinny rail or Seyfried Schtick 2-piece bases
on the long actions.
At least two scopes for each rifle.
Who needs any iron sights anyway?
Saeed style.
300-grainers at +2700 fps
350-grainers at +2600 fps
400-grainers at +2500 fps
450-grainers at +2400 fps
500-grainers at +2300 fps.
Any .458 WIN with a 24" barrel can do that, no matter what the magazine box length is in a bolt action.
LongCOL loads can be single-shot loaded in a standard/short action,
backed up with a magazine full of shortCOL 500-grainers at 2200 fps.
More than enough.
All other big bores are obsolete.
Ring THE MISSION bell!

Rip ...

I have a M70 458 barrel, I think from about 1996 that was taken off for CP Donnelly to install the present 458 barrel. I'm considering having a chamber cast made so that I can visualize the leade. But it's all on hold for the moment because I'm leaving tomorrow morning for a date with some wiley elk. be gone until after the election. Hopefully when I return there will be something on the TV beside political ads. Ah, back to having just pillow, mattress, gold coin and generic drugs bombarding me.

Ray B,

Are you using that .458 WIN on an elk?
I hear they are great brush guns. If there is such a thing, it is a .458 WIN.
If you have another "Tick Licker" ready to go besides the .458 WIN, then good luck anyway.

Bob Mitchell has used H4198 to get the 350-grain TSX up to about 2750 fps in a 25" CZ barrel.
Allow for powder lot variations and local ambient conditions, of course.
That would do nicely on elk out to 300-yards.
His estimated BC at about 1200 ft altitude was 0.338.
Barnes publishes 0.271 BC for that bullet.
Maybe it will be upgraded in the 5th edition if there ever is one.

Rip ...

No, I thought about it, but I'm trying a new area this year and the 1.5x Zeiss would be a disadvantage since it's fairly open terrain. there's a problem I've had for about 15 years- I'll get knowledgeable in an area and then it gets burned over by wildfires or some other habitat change causes serious changes in the elks patterns. In this new to me area hunters are limited to "spike" elk unless drawn for a branch-antler elk. I wasn't drawn, so the biggest I'd be able to shoot would be a yearling.

As far as brush guns go, I tried one time to shoot through some brush that I thought was right next to a buck. the distance from me to the buck was about 50 yards. the brush turned out to be about ten yards from the buck. Two shots (270Win 130 gr Sierra SBT). the buck could hear the blast but evidently couldn't place the location, so just stood there. I had a clear shot at his neck so decided to try it and as luck would have it, the cartridge mis-fired. With the clearly audible click, the deer was off to the races. the problem as determined by CCI was a faulty primer - on forming the anvil it had a crack at the top of the point so when struck by the firing pin two legs of the anvil collapsed under the third leg, so there was no compression of the compound and no explosion. In view of the defective product the customer relations guy at CCI gave a box of 1,000 primers to me as compensation. Oh well, it would have been a long pack uphill to the truck and it was a heavy 4 pt buck, so I was saved a lot of effort and work. that was over 30 years ago- my how time flies.

If you're using a .458 in that open terrain, Ray B,
I don't think you should think of 1.5x as necessarily having too little magnification.

Since the first truth of modern rifle telescopy is that it puts the target and alignment means in the same focal plane, the old Zeiss idea that 1x should be good for 200 yards is not a crazy idea, though to say 4x should be good for 800 might be. But you get the idea. A scope is just a sight and 1.5x should have enough resolution to resolve an elk at 300 yards - and much farther than that is beyond the looping trajectory of most .458s, without use of decadent electronic aids.

Does anyone here have access to Quickload? Would you mind running a couple of equations in it for me?

In trying to devise a Win 748 load for those .458 cast slugs in my Miroku 86 Winchester .45-70, I've been urged to ask someone to run two sets of data for it, one to 28,000 psi and another to 40,000.

The gas-checked bullets (from a Redding/Saeco No.19 mould) weigh 468 grains and will be seated to .585" below the mouth of Starline brass that is 2.095" long.

A poster on Cast Boolits says a Brian Pierce has found Starline cases to have a mid-range total volume of 77.5 grains of water.

The Winchester Short Rifle's barrel is 24 inches long.

I'll post on the Reloading and Lever Action forums, too, but ask them to send the results here for obvious reasons

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
. . .

Yep, the .458 WIN is well and truly resuscitated.
. . .the .458 Winchester Magnum has made all other big bore rifles obsolete. Again!
Ha ha.

Rip ...

Except for old ladies and men who want to carry a small rifle in a lighter caliber in dangerous game hunting fields.
For them, Bill Ruger has provided the 416 Ruger and the 375 Ruger, in either a 23" African or 20"Alaskan. Things are looking good all around.

Just keeping everything honest with a full perspective.

Maybe the 458WM could be made with, say, .308 or .338 sabots, after which it could truly become the all-round African calibre.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Does anyone here have access to Quickload? Would you mind running a couple of equations in it for me?

In trying to devise a Win 748 load for those .458 cast slugs in my Miroku 86 Winchester .45-70, I've been urged to ask someone to run two sets of data for it, one to 28,000 psi and another to 40,000.

The gas-checked bullets (from a Redding/Saeco No.19 mould) weigh 468 grains and will be seated to .585" below the mouth of Starline brass that is 2.095" long.

A poster on Cast Boolits says a Brian Pierce has found Starline cases to have a mid-range total volume of 77.5 grains of water.

The Winchester Short Rifle's barrel is 24 inches long.

I'll post on the Reloading and Lever Action forums, too, but ask them to send the results here for obvious reasons

It occurs to me now to mention I'll be using CCI No. 250 magnum primers, which seem to be indicated for use with W748.

In case Quickload only evaluates loads with nominated powder charges, I'm considering starting the W748 at 48 or 50 grains.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Does anyone here have access to Quickload? Would you mind running a couple of equations in it for me?

In trying to devise a Win 748 load for those .458 cast slugs in my Miroku 86 Winchester .45-70, I've been urged to ask someone to run two sets of data for it, one to 28,000 psi and another to 40,000.

The gas-checked bullets (from a Redding/Saeco No.19 mould) weigh 468 grains and will be seated to .585" below the mouth of Starline brass that is 2.095" long.

A poster on Cast Boolits says a Brian Pierce has found Starline cases to have a mid-range total volume of 77.5 grains of water.

The Winchester Short Rifle's barrel is 24 inches long.

I'll post on the Reloading and Lever Action forums, too, but ask them to send the results here for obvious reasons

It occurs to me now to mention I'll be using CCI No. 250 magnum primers, which seem to be indicated for use with W748.

In case Quickload only evaluates loads with nominated powder charges, I'm considering starting the W748 at 48 or 50 grains.

I'd be glad to run these calcs in QuickLoad for you. What is your bullet length/COL?

Thanks bcelliott,
the bullet length is 1.174".

Without assembling another cartridge immediately, I can't be absolutely certain of COAL but it looks like being 2.7 inches. It might be slightly shorter, though, because I'm told the bullet's .220 meplat is too small and I may have to shorten it to make a safer, wider one.

But please go with the details as stated, they will give me some idea of how to proceed.

NB: I've just added the bullet length, missing before

Much appreciated
Sam

Sam,

Can you measure the total length of the bullet outside of the case?