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While the 458 WinMag Long COL has the coveted boom stick stamp of approval or BSSOA in the gun industry, what is interesting to less than .000001% of the world population (Less than 7,000 but 10% of the rifle loonies) is that what you have in the 458 long COL is two cartridges and one spec reamer. The spec 458 WinMag obviously works and the long COL will work depending upon alterations but technically the Long COl is not a 458 WM being that it does not fall within the OAL limits says captain obvious. What those less than 7,000 people need is a vault filled with reloading data and an over the top marketing campaign to pry those dollars from those without sense. Viva the 458 on Viagra! The 458 VWM or 458 WMX (Xtra)? The Stan Laurel to Oliver Hardy.  RIP you have done a great service to the gun loony community long live the 458 long COL577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Does that tang sight fall over when you shoot, RIP? The one on my .45-70 does, even though I've strengthened the spring. The good news is that the M86 breechblock stands it up again if cycled vigorously. | |||
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Paul, Really ? I have not shot it yet. But the primary recoil will only make it move inertially forward, to upright stop, cannot fold forward, only folds backward to get out of way. I have to lay my thumb along the right side of the rifle if I am using scope with tang peep folded down. The recoil impulse to fold it down will only come when the rifle decelerates against my shoulder, at the end of recoil. Will see. And for those lusting after a .458 WINRUGER, here is replay of cartridge porn, but it does have redeeming historical value in showing the discontinued 400-grain X-Cannelured Barnes Bullet:  Notice what a perfect fit in the .458 WINRUGER LongCOL 3.6". Finn Aagaard said that bullet was tops in the .458 WIN compared to all other soft-nose bullets up to and including 500-grainers. Phil Shoemaker thought it was the cat's pajamas for big brown bear too.  Rip ... | |||
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Ultima Winchester-McGowen might need a twin sister with same barrel chambered for .458 WINRUGER LongCOL 3.6". Or get a Ruger M77 Hawkeye or Mark II action opened up to 3.6". Easy enough. Or get 3.6" long drop bottom metal for Mark X Mauser (Duane Weibe ? ) and have Woodie Whitworth the existing .458 WINRUGER fitted for that. She is accurate, only fits two down in the 3.4" box now. A little bit of coffin in the floorplate would be nice for a .458 WINRUGER "LongCOL" 3.4":  A .300 RUM Winchester M70 action with or without Sunnyhill drop floorplate in a McMillan stock to fit it is also a way to go for a .458 WINRUGER. Or drop bottom metal for M70 LA, with integral magazine, hanging out of the bottom of a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock, a la Saeed. Or the Big Kahuna, CZ 550 Magnum, for .458 WINRUGER LongCOL 3.8" ... OVERKILL. Rip ... | |||
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You got that right Ripster!!! | |||
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Plus 2 on the utility of iron sights. And this Marbles Tang peep locks up in shooting position and does not fall over unless folded back to the lock position which clears the way for the Marbles folding barrel sight shown below in the up shooting position.   Oh yes, the rifle is Winchester 1886 .458 2.4 with 26 inch octagon barrel (my elephant gun). NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Paul, WRT the 1886 breech block touching your tang tight: The Marbles sight on my '86 is designed for the 86 and the center of the breech block is wide enough to not touch the sight when the breech is fully open. Since I have no photo with the lever fully forward and the breech fully open, you will just have to trust me on this. The size difference in the stem of the two sights in the two pics above seems to show that the Marbles was designed for compatibility with the 86 action. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Thanks CR, my standard 86 sight had to be considerably modified to replace the lawyer's safety - and maybe reversing the base had something to do with recoil (or possibly my glasses?) pushing it forward. If I keep it centred, it seems it is just the middle of the breechblock that stands it up again, otherwise the elevation may get worked on by the side bar. Mine might be farther forward than normal, because I haven't had to notch the comb to lay it down as some report. Yours appears to be the correct, lawyer's-safety model but no one seems to import that over here. | |||
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Folks I have a .458 cz in bound....and this time around I am not bothering with the reaming to a .458 lott. Just going to run the plain old .458 win mag  Question....who has run the 500 gr woodleigh protected points and what were they like in comparison to the 500 gr RN's ? Its probably some where in the 160 odd pages here.......  | |||
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Paul, Please see my pic of the tang sight folded back and locked. The little bump just forward of the base is the factory safety and it needed no work because the sight was made for the current Miroku/Winchester 1886 with the safety. The safety matters not to me - I can just leave it off- safe and go about my business. In the same pic you can see how much of the forward tip of the comb was removed to make room for the sight to lay back and lock in place. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Alderella has "barked" a nice doe with the 400-gr HV at +2500 fps MV. Juicy doe was sidehilling at a walk through the trees across the valley and dropped on impact. Pics to follow, that was yesterday. I am still hunting again today. I have one bar on Iphone here. Rip ... | |||
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Hunting deer with the mighty 458 is a great joy. Hope your putting a cast load through the boiler room on one today Rip. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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My opinion exactly! I bought one of the first rifles from Winchester chambered for the 458 Win Mag and had trouble with it from the get go! Today the 458 Win Mag can work fine with modern powders but I agree with Atkins, the 458 Win Mag should have been the LOTT to begin with! ………......………............…..  Mac....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Rip, You take one day off for deer hunting and the doubters are creeping back in. MacD37, If the 458WM would have been the LOTT to begin with, maybe life would have been golden. All the reasons, myths and simply non facts have been rebuted about the 458 "flaws" in the previous pages. There is no way to say that if the LOTT had been the first, the vast majority of the problems, human errors, would not have applied to it as well. Fact is there is nothing wrong with the 458WM including Throating and all the "problems" with it simply don't exist today. Take a look at the Nosler data, usually "Hot" data, for the LOTT by the way and see if you can find a "loaded down" 500 grain at 2200 FPS. I can't. In fact there is only one 2207 FPS load on there with Reloader 15 and it at 109% of volume meaning compacted. Pesky facts again. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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I would have bought the tang-sight model you did, CR, but it was just not imported by the local Brownell or Midway branches. I finally got the main bolt from the Marble wholesaler, as Miroku changed to a super-fine thread for some reason. I was actually quite pleased to get rid of that safety, as bar testing reloads for fit, I couldn't see much point in it, and one experience made me wonder if it safeguarded the primer anyway. Yes, I'd thought it was you who had to modify the comb but your effort was so good I coudn't be sure. | |||
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Curmudgeon B agrees with Curmudgeon A, long after Curmudgeon A has tucked tail and hid under the porch. Too funny! A couple of old dogs refusing to learn any knew tricks. I can say that because I am a white-haired, fat, old curmudgeon myself, quite resembling Santa Claus. Fact is that the SAAMI .458 Lott is a colossal screw-up of the late-comer, me-too, wildcat .458 Lott. It took over 30 years to go from good wildcat to awful standardization. Jack Lott did well by simply re-chambering SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum rifles to accept 2.8" brass, and blending into the existing .458 WIN remnant throat. He also liked using the 3.8" magazine length of the BRNO ZKK 602. Thus he avoided lengthening the brass by 0.3" while only lengthening the magazine box by 0.2" as with the SAAMI .458 Lott squeezed into an H&H-length action. SAAMI had to specify a 2,500 psi higher MAP (62,500 psi) for the .458 Lott to give it any chance to better the SAAMI .458 WIN by 50 fps with 500-grainer, when the .458 WIN is limited to 60,000 psi and 3.340" COL.  Rip ... | |||
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Alderella Ruger-Shilen sweatin' with the oldies (me and the .458 WIN), takes five while creeping around the deer woods, on point:  | |||
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Across the "arroyo" about 150 yards away, a tasty she-deer, is high-tailing along the side of the hill, about 10 degrees elevation above me, going to the right near center of this photo, she is the straggler in a group of four:  In my best imitation of Saeed, I instinctively threw up the rifle and snapshot through the timber at moving game ... | |||
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Hit too high and too far back, spined, she dropped and slid down the hillside, went over a bank and landed in the little stream flowing down the ravine from a spring:  | |||
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Exit hole was fist-sized and there was a spray of blood and a wide path of blood to mark her slide. Easiest tracking ever !  400-grain HV at +2500 fps MV, impacting at 150 yards. Zero recoil felt when shooting deer skeet. She is at the meat processor now, missing only a wee amount of backstrap. Just keeping the highways safe, and the deer herd healthy. Rip ... | |||
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That's the way it is with old wives tales ya know. Just take a look at any of the OSR / MonoMetal bullet in Double Rifle threads. Sam and Michael obliterated any notion of a "too hard" bullet causing rifling to jump to the outside of a barrel. There's an 18 page in depth, scientific, repeatable dissertation on how they went about testing the theories. Yet, those who refuse to read it pop up from time to time and re-invigorate the old wives tales as gospel. Recently, one fella even went so far as to suggest that maybe someone should do a laboratory study to determine if the OSR / MonoMetal bullet in DR's was really a thing and until such study was completed, we should assume it to be the case; erring on the side of caution sort of thing. I linked him to the 18 page "laboratory study" mentioned above. Crickets I'll tell you ... Crickets! Old wives tales are hard to kill off once started. Kind of like "I know there are black panthers round these parts because my Grandpappy told me he saw one when he was just a little boy", or "Bigfoot is real. Grandmaw used to talk to one at the edge of her yard on occasion. Never hurt no-one". Those wild tales get passed down and passed down until they become legend. Once legend, you can no longer question their validity without committing heresy! Typical responses are something like "Well my Grandpappy was an honest man. Are you a telling me he was a liar? If so, them's a fightin words son!" Same / Same with the WM / Lott. Whack a Mole! | |||
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Here's another of those old wives tales. Rip, don't you know you can't shoot a lil ole Whitetail Deer with one of them thar elephant guns? There won't be nuthin left of it. That cannon will disintegrate that critter. | |||
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You blokes have missed the whole theme of the thread. It is about the 458 Winchester being in a 3.6" magazine and bullets seated so OAL is the same as the 458 Lott but with advantages provided by the standard 458 Winchester throat. | |||
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Dunno man, i think the point of the thread is that the 458 will EASILY do the 480 at 2150x thus perfectly replicating the 450 nitro, which needs no introduction, excuses, caveats, or apologies. | |||
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Easily do 2100 at 3.4" with a 500 bullet. 500 HDY RN 64.8 1,900 72.0 2,159 53,808 3.305 Western Powder data AA 22300 "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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crshelton, Thanks for getting Paul straightened out on the 1886 tang peep !
Rip ... | |||
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PC is back ! Excellent idea to run the .458 WIN as is. The top impact velocity of the 500-gr Woodleigh PP SN is only 2200 fps. And the better BC of the PP SN compared to the RN will allow it to have higher impact velocity farther down range. You will be able to do 2300 fps easily if you load it long, so take care !  Not so strangely, the Woodleigh 400-gr PP SN is recommended to a higher maximum impact velocity of 2500 fps. You will be able to do that with your .458 WIN LongCOL. It may be a great substitute for the GSC HV 400-grainer, though exit wounds on deer may be bigger than fist-size. Rip ...   | |||
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I wish I had. No luck Sunday. I am going cast lead next time, concentrating on the 480-grainer for a while. Rip ... | |||
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Todd, Thanks for bringing the humor along with the enlightenment. A link to the OSR-Monometal-Bullet-DR thread would be appreciated. This thread will ultimately encompass all of "Riflery Crankery & Debunkery" in a one-stop, searchable resource. Rip ... | |||
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Evidence of good blood trail is seen here:  Rip ... | |||
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One bullet, one deer.  Rip ... | |||
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The three gentlemen quoted below are all correct and do not contradict at all. The scope of the thread includes all of their concepts, of course, and more !
It's all good, like most (though not all) old dogs, children, and watermelon wine. Sometimes the wine turns to vinegar with age. Rip ... | |||
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So, what do you think might explain it, RIP? It only moves about 20 degrees but is still a bit annoying at the range, where reloading is often less vigorous than in the field. PS: Sorry Des Cartez has captured top of column again. In case you wonder, I don't necessarily endorse his philosophy. I stubbed my toe on a rock once; the rock thought nothing at all about the encounter - but I'm pretty sure it exists (unless since crushed to gravel). | |||
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Paul, Paul thanks for being such a great supporter of THE MISSION. You Aussies have always been there with us Americans, fighting the good fight with shared values as close as any two countries. Antipodean fraternal twins, mighty mates, aye. You are a good friend, so don't take this wrong: Being upside down on the globe does not mean your tang peep can work backwards. YOU THINK ? was supposed to be dripping with sarcasm. Of course you screwed up when you screwed down the base of your tang peep on the Model 1886. Now go get a cup of coffee and a nonalcoholic screwdriver, and get that bassackward tang sight off your fine rifle. Someday you might get one that works properly when installed properly. Honestly I did not know that it would lock upright at the correct angle (perpendicular to bore) unless it was installed with the base in the proper direction. Rip ... | |||
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Somewhat sacrilegious... Actually, outrageously apostate... what about a 458 WMBP? Obviously the black powder version would have a throat designed for black powder and a slower twist rate optimized for cast bullets. Would a belted 45-100 (2.6”) be better? A bolt action straight case black powder case has a niche for certain areas hunting restrictions. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Remember, anything that can be done with the flanged .45-2.6"-SWT can be done with the belted .458 WIN. You just have to size the bullets properly for the barrel groove of the rifle, either 0.457" and .459" groove diameters get .457" and .459" bullet diameter respectively for the BP loads. If the BP needs to be compressed only 0.1" of depth in the .45-2.6-SWT load shown below, and the Starline .45-2.6"-SWT brass is only 2 grains of water greater in capacity than the Hornady .458 WIN 2.5" brass, and the BP is compressed fully 0.493" in depth in the .45-70 load shown below (the SHARPSGUY ZEBRA HAMMER load), then compressing the BP a trifle more than 0.100" in depth in the .458 WIN can be done without noticing any difference on the press handle. That is a ho hum yawner of difference. Copied from the .45-70 thread:     | |||
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But the 1:14" twist SAAMI .458 WIN barrel&chamber is so good with smokeless powder and gas-checked, powder-coat painted, hard-cast, heavy bullets, that I am sticking with the SAAMI .45-70 Govt. for BP, grease-lubed, plain-based, cast lead bullets. From the .45-70 thread:  I guess I am retiring the PH bullet to the .45-70 Govt. Above were my first three shots from a clean barrel and it did not get any better. It was windy today, had to hold the chronograph tripod down with a hanging sandbag. I could not get a single reading, just errors. When I went to investigate/re-set chrono, I found grease cookie splatter all over the tripod and chronograph. Lucky I did not destroy anything with my grease gun. I packed it in, will give the .45-70 with PH and BP (and no grease cookie) a chance on another day. The .45-2.6"-SWT is better with smokeless:  And copied from page 161 of this thread, the change of heart: Maybe Goldie Ruger-Pedersoli will backslide to smokeless after all. She is fickle ! Pleasant loads from the .45-2.6"-SWT for .457"-grooved rifles can be sized for .459"-grooved rifles in either .45-2.6"-SWT or .458 WIN LongCOL. No, problem whether 1:20", 1:18", or 1:14" twist. I can even size them specially for the .458"-grooved Ultima Winchester-McGowen. Rip ... | |||
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Here is that Gil Sengel experiment that was pretty much a bust, he said that shooting factory SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum loads in it was dangerous:  Sengel was not particularly interested in BP, mainly smokeless and light bullets. In the SAAMI .458 WIN chamber, only 40 grains of AA-5744 moves a 544-grain FNGC cast bullet at almost 1600 fps, accurately. Selous and Quigley worked wonders with 1350 fps to 1450 fps and 540-gr to 550-gr lead bullets ! That same bullet is accurate at 2150 fps with a bigger charge of slower-burning powder in the SAAMI .458 WIN at 3.475" COL. Oops ! If it is over 3.340" COL it ain't SAAMI ! Rip ... | |||
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Quigley would be jealous of a 544-grain, powder-coat painted, gas-checked bullet with smokeless powder in the SAAMI .458 WIN wildcatted to LongCOL. That would be for 3.475" COL with 2.500" .458 WIN brass. Starting at 1600 fps and topping out at 2200 fps MV, that might make him think he was throwing like a girl with his .45-110-550 2-7/8" Sharps Straight with paper-patched bullets and BP, at about 1450 fps.   Rip ... | |||
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