quote:

The .458 WIN continues to look better and better.

The GSC bullets keep looking better and better with their nose length of .66", producing COL's of 3.25-3.33"in a Win Ruger.

I see Nosler has their 300 grain "45-70" bullets on sale and I was wondering how these bullets would perform in a 458. Since they have the BC of a brick I'd expect that they would shed velocity rapidly, but could have a reasonable trajectory out to about 250 yards. So two questions:

1. Given the twist rates of the 458 and the potential velocity, how would these bullets perform from muzzle to target? &

2. Would the jacket construction hold up to any sort of tough animal on arrival at the 200 yard mark?

any experience with this bullet would be appreciated so I don't re-plow some planted ground.

Ray B,

You got me to look in the NOSLER RELOADING GUIDE 8.
They show .458 Wwinchester Mag-500 grain data for their Protected Point Partition, and their brass FN solid.
That is all.

Ivan Carter did their speel on the "458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM."
"... With modern day powders, these issues have become null and void and the 458 can be found resting on the shoulder of a great deal of African PHs and big game hunters."

A 300-grain Nosler of any type would be nice to try if you get a pile of them cheap.
I would rather stick with some home-made, powder-coated, cast lead 500-grainers at about 1400 fps for routine game getting and plinking fun.
They can certainly be made to work in a .458 WIN.
I also know that the Barnes .458/300-grain TTSX can do about 0.5 MOA for 3 shots at 2634 fps, and less accurate in my .458 WIN at +2700 fps.
Better for longer range varmints, BC slightly better than a brick.

Rip ...

So a .458 WIN with 2.5" brass can be loaded to COL of 3.518" with that DGS if a second cannelure is put on it.
That leaves 0.357" of full diameter base within the case, instead of 0.600" of buried bullet with the .458 WinRuger, as shown above.

More and more it looks like the Pre-'64 M70 with 3.6" box is the ultimate DGR.
Anything more is just the self-beating of the hairy chest.

The .458 Lott brass is lengthened by 0.3", from 2.5" (WIN) to 2.8" (Lott).
However, the magazine box of a .458 Lott is usually only lengthened by 0.2", from 3.4" (WIN) to 3.6" (Lott).

The .458 Lott suffers in a 3.6" box, just like the .458 WinRuger suffers in a 3.4" box.
That suffering is in use of heavy and long bullets with bullet noses too long to fit the magazine.

The .458 WIN suffers less (or not at all) from this limited-nose-length malady in any box length, 3.4", 3.6", or 3.8".

The .458 WinRuger would be better in a longer-than-3.4" magazine box.

Rip ...

The Noslers are: CT Ballistic Silver Tip w/Cannelure .458 300 grain (Blems) $21.95/50. My Nosler Loading manual is an edition or two outdated so I suspect that if the bullet is listed, it will only be for the 5/70. but possibly not at all.

That Win Ruger sure is a nice looking cartridge - no belt, minimum body taper, a one caliber neck and 30/30 shoulder.

I just checked my Nosler manual- it is #6, from Nov 2007. It only lists Partition 300 grain bullets for .458 caliber. Appears the heavier Partitions as well as the CT SilverTips came along later. Oh well, at 40 cents a pop, I suppose they'd work for the gun to go bang. But as is said, the same thing could be done with a cast bullet. I should check the Oregon Trail catalog and see what they have.

Good job RIP!
What a pretty super size 400 Whelen
How do you feel about fire forming some belted cases in the 458 Ruger chamber to see capacity differences?
Thanks for being a pioneer

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Good job RIP!
What a pretty super size 400 Whelen
How do you feel about fire forming some belted cases in the 458 Ruger chamber to see capacity differences?
Thanks for being a pioneer

boom stick,

Thanks for MISSION SUPPORT.
I really don't care to try to weld any belted case webs to .458WinRuger chamber.
It was converted from .458 WIN to .458 WinRuger only because of a factory ringing of the chamber.
Pioneering?

Rip ...

So, Hornady had to change their bullet nose lengths in .458-cal 500-grainers when they brought out the .458 Lott via SAAMI in 2002.

The old Hornady RNSP was too long to work in the .458 Lott with a SAAMI COL limit of 3.600".
That crowds a 3.6" magazine box if 2.8" brass length is used.
It worked fine in a 3.4" box with 2.5" brass length.
Just another .458 Lott failure compared to the precociously successful .458 WIN.
Reminds me of the .400 S. Jeffery giving a spanking to the late-comer .450/400 "Magnum" Nitro Express 3.25".


Hornady DGS and DGX bullets are about
1.385" long
0.600" length from base to mid-cannelure
0.785" nose length

Old Hornady RNSP bullets are about
1.350" long
0.500" length from base to mid-cannelure
0.850" nose length

COLs with DGS and DGX 500-grainers:

.458 WIN (2.500" brass): 3.285"
.458 WinRuger (2.580" brass): 3.365"
.458 Lott (2.800" brass): 3.585

COLs with old Hornady RNSP 500-grainers:

.458 WIN (2.500" brass): 3.350" (3.340" if brass trimmed to 2.490", meets SAAMI, cannelure also allows 0.010" deeper seating)
.458 WinRuger (2.580" brass): 3.430" (won't work in 3.4" box no matter what)
.458 Lott (2.800" brass): 3.650" (won't work in 3.6" box no matter what)

The above assumes crimping the loads at about the middle of the cannelure, so the COLs could be changed +/- 0.010",
though this has no effect on the "no matter what" conclusions above unless brass is shortened considerably.
This may explain why Hornady .458 Lott brass is often encountered that measures 2.775" or shorter, from the factory.

One could say that the SAAMI .458 Lott has an effective magazine length that is 0.100" too short with a 3.6" magazine length,
or that the SAAMI .458 WIN has an effective magazine length that is 0.100" greater in a 3.4" magazine length.
Fancy that, the .458 WIN wins again.
It can handle more bullets than the .458 Lott can, regarding the long-nosed ones,
even in a 3.4" box length for the .458 WIN,
and a 3.6" box for the .458 Lott.

The .458 WIN can flat out spank the .458 Lott if both are used in a 3.6" magazine box.
Exception is the short-nosed, light-weight bullets that might go faster from a .458 Lott.
Yep, the .458 Lott is light in its loafers.

The .458 WinRuger (105 grains gross H2O with 2.580" brass) in a 3.4" box
is essentially like a .458 Lott (105 grains gross H2O with 2.800" brass) in a 3.6" box,
only better, because of the throating advantage of the .458 WinRuger.

Rip ...

74 pages. Blame me for turning that trick.
For my next trick, I will try to destroy a Nikon BlackForce 1000 SpeedForce Illuminated Reticle.
Will see if the illumination can take a lickin' and keep on tickin' on the .458 WinRuger.

Rip ...

RIP- Sounds like the 458 Lott would be a really good cartridge IF it was in a rifle with chamber and magazine designed for a cartridge with OAL of 3.8 or 9". Were those Wells magnum actions from Arizona ever made to that length?

Photo of the "old" Hornady #4504, 500 grain Interlock Round Nose. OAL 1.335", Base to Cann .5", Base to .450" diameter .77", width of Cann .07". I don't have any "new" style Hornady 458s to compare.

Ray B,

Thanks for that measurement of the Hornady Interlock .458/500-grainer.
I think mine must be an older bullet, did not say "Interlock" on the box, but was identified by the same #4504 on the box endflap:

#4504
45 CAL. 500 GR.
.458 Round Nose

Your bullet is shorter and has less lead showing at the nose, with a blunter, shorter ogive, same base to cannelure distance,
shorter overall length.
This must be transitional to the present DGS and DGX pattern.
They were working on their problem with the long nose in the .458 Lott.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
RIP- Sounds like the 458 Lott would be a really good cartridge IF it was in a rifle with chamber and magazine designed for a cartridge with OAL of 3.8 or 9". Were those Wells magnum actions from Arizona ever made to that length?

The plain vanilla CZ 550 Magnum has a +3.8" magazine box length.
Yep, that is what is needed for a .458 Lott.

Rip ...

For emphasis:

Totally unnecessary for the .458 WIN.
Actually a handicapping of the .458 WIN:



Flat meplat of steel washed with gilding metal.
Exposed lead core and thick steel jacket observable at flat base having slight, rounded bevel.

The new softpoint has a more pronounced rounded-beveled, but solid base of steel,
and a small amount of lead core exposed at the nose, in a flat meplat.
The steel jacket is washed with gilding metal.
Supposed to be a close match for the DGS in loading lengths:



Rip ...

You can shoot a 500 grain if y'all want. A lot of people do.

Personally, I would prefer monolithics like GSC 400 and 450's, HV and FN solid. They will fit any of the magazines and get more velocity than most of us could use with equal or similar penetration.
(O'course I just do .416" and .510" at the moment. But this post keeps the perspective in place and adds to RIP's beloved post count.)

Thank you 416Tanzan.

I agree the 400-grain HV and the 450-grain FN solid are "where it is at" for all of the .458-caliber rifles.
Those are especially great in the .458 WIN.

But 500-grainers at 2100 to 2200 fps have a nostalgic appeal,
like a .400 S. Jeffery (.450/400 NE 3") on steroids.

Doing research on the .400 S. Jeffery,
I learned about the "coning up" of a rifle chamber, the H&H term for free-boring a chamber for "full nitro" loads,
a practice they were doing in 1903 and before.

This suggests changing a short, leade-only throat of a rifle, to a Longer leade, more Acute-angled, Wider-diameter-start-of-throat.
Long, Acute-angled Wide-based throating.
LAW throating.
Coned up throating.
The .458 Winchester Magnum throat was invented by Holland & Holland,
copied by the Winchester engineers in 1956.
Then they "coned down" for the .338 WIN and .264 WIN, leade-only throats.


Rip ...

Concerning the 404 J leade, I've read that the early ones started out at the .423" then tapered down to the .404", which seems to me to be quite a lot, so I'm not sure if that was correct and if so, what the purpose of it is.

concerning the 338, I have a 1960 production .338 M70 that for years has been my "go-to" rifle in event I had a "permit" branch antler elk tag. I was unaware that there was anything different about the chambering. I have been content with a 250 grain bullet at 2700 fps, or a 200 grain Bitterroot at somewhere close to 3000 fps. I didn't chronograph them because I didn't want to waste any on a dirt bank. But with Speers that was the velocity obtained with good caselife.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
Concerning the 404 J leade, I've read that the early ones started out at the .423" then tapered down to the .404", which seems to me to be quite a lot, so I'm not sure if that was correct and if so, what the purpose of it is.

That is one I never heard of.
I rather like the one about the 404 standing for a +40-caliber-4-shooter.
Or, it was the +40-bore conceived by Genius W. Jackman Jeffery in '04, since it was shootin' by 1905.
The last time I looked at the C.I.P. throat for the "404 Riml. N.E." it was a leade-only throat (zero parallel-sided free-bore)
that started at diameter 0.424" and tapered at a semi-angle of 1*25'20".
The bullet diameter was specified as 0.422" (10.72mm).
The craziest part of it all is that the barrel groove diameter was specified as 0.4181" (10.62mm) and the bore diameter was .4118" (10.46mm).

That makes the C.I.P. 404 Jeffery a SQUEEZE BORE. Mama's got a squeeze box, Daddy never sleeps at night!

It is ridiculous. We on this side of the pond have come to accept the 404 Jeffery bullet diameter as .423" and the groove diameter to be .423" to .425" among the various barrel makers, with bore diameter being more like .415" to .418"!!!

The 404 Jeffery throat needs to be "coned up" to make best use of all the modern .423-caliber bullets.

concerning the 338, I have a 1960 production .338 M70 that for years has been my "go-to" rifle in event I had a "permit" branch antler elk tag. I was unaware that there was anything different about the chambering. I have been content with a 250 grain bullet at 2700 fps, or a 200 grain Bitterroot at somewhere close to 3000 fps. I didn't chronograph them because I didn't want to waste any on a dirt bank. But with Speers that was the velocity obtained with good caselife.

Compared to the C.I.P. 404 Jeffery (404 Riml. N.E.) with short, narrow, "tight", leade-only throat,
the .338 WIN has been "coned up" to a leade-only throat that starts off at 0.345" wide and tapers with a leade semi-angle of 2*00'00".
The .264 WIN was similarly "coned up" to 0.268"-wide base and 2*00'00" leade semi-angle.
The .458 WIN was "very coned up" to 0.469"-wide base and 0*29'30" leade semi-angle.
That creates a long throat by its gradual taper with zero parallel-sided free-bore,
which works great for accuracy, skeedaddling the bullet into perfect alignment with the bore, while letting off pressure.

The SAAMI .264, .338, and .458 WIN cartridges are like Three Amigos, Cone Heads of Distinction!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
74 pages. Blame me for turning that trick.
For my next trick, I will try to destroy a Nikon BlackForce 1000 SpeedForce Illuminated Reticle.
Will see if the illumination can take a lickin' and keep on tickin' on the .458 WinRuger.

Rip ...

That's a thought I had not had, RIP, that maybe heavy recoil could be an additional threat to illumination.

My reliability complaints against the concept were just about the possibilities - whenever we add a battery or electricity to anything, it's just something else that might go wrong.

Sorry I haven't been much help in the Mission recently. Bought a piece of land . Now designing a garage and apartment. And figuring out which sawmill to buy. . I'm leaning towards the WoodMizer LT10.

As to being on topic. We have already seen a big bull buffler in a section of the approximately 20 Sq miles of fields in front of our house lot.
And their are both moose and bison tracks on our house lot. So , my 458 Win hopefully will get some big ruminate use. , Now , what bullet to use ??

CTF,

You be near Delta Junction bison herd?
Can a nonresident hunt those without a guide?
Could you be my "guide"?

Rip ...

Yes, the Delta herd. For buffler yes. Non paying proposition , just a couple gobs( good ole boys) out huntin. However, there are pretty much only 2 ways to get them. First is to be drawn for a Delta bison tag. 2nd is to buy one from one of the bison ( ranches) and go shoot it. Sometimes it's not as easy as driving up and poping one.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger: 2nd is to buy one from one of the bison ( ranches) and go shoot it. Sometimes it's not as easy as driving up and poping one.

About 40 years ago there was a bison rancher in SE Washington that would sell bison to fellows that wanted to shoot one. Guys would show-up in buckskin outfits and Sharps (before reproductions) rifles shooting 3" cartridges or sometimes the powder packets with bullets seated ahead. They'd make quite a show. They should have sold admission tickets - but then, PETA & PAWS was just getting started in those days, so there probably would have been a public outcry about such inhumanity. I haven't seen anything of the rancher in several years so he has probably discontinued the practice, although since the "hunter" got to keep the meat, hide and all, the price per pound came out to be not much more than beef was at the time.

Of the two bison I have "taken" one was a 1632-pounder I paid a buck a pound for, weighed on a truck scale by Farmer D. after he was killed, here in KY.
The bison was shot, not Farmer D.
The other was from Nebraska, 1300-pounder that cost me about $3 per pound (gross weight) by the time I got him home.
The meat is $32/pound at the local Kroger.

So is there a chance I could be drawn for an Alaskan bison permit.
One in a million?
Then there is a chance! (Dumb&Dumber)

Perfect .458/400-gr HV test media.

Rip ...

quote:

One in a million?
Then there is a chance! (Dumb&Dumber)

I just got back from an Australian buff hunt. I had a really bad dog bite to the face the week before my hunt that required plastic surgery. Since I had a bunch of stitches on my face, I elected to use a .375 instead of a .458, which was disappointing, since I was looking forward to testing the .458.

However, Gunslinger55 was with me and he used a .458 Lott. I must say, that thing really hammered the buffalo. This was a cull hunt, and we took turns "shooting first." The .375 got the job done when I shot first, but almost none of the buff went down on the first shot. If they ran away, Gunslinger put a 500 grain bullet up their butts and that almost always stopped them.

Our PH was not a .458 Win fan, but he sure was impressed with that Lott.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I just got back from an Australian buff hunt. I had a really bad dog bite to the face the week before my hunt that required plastic surgery. Since I had a bunch of stitches on my face, I elected to use a .375 instead of a .458, which was disappointing, since I was looking forward to testing the .458.

How terrible! Both for your face and all of us .458 WIN. fans.
Understandable that something a little easier on the face in recoil was used so as not to bust loose any of those delicate subcuticular sutures.
Did you at least get to shoot the dog that grabbed your face?

However, Gunslinger55 was with me and he used a .458 Lott. I must say, that thing really hammered the buffalo. This was a cull hunt, and we took turns "shooting first." The .375 got the job done when I shot first, but almost none of the buff went down on the first shot. If they ran away, Gunslinger put a 500 grain bullet up their butts and that almost always stopped them.

And so would a .458 WIN with proper factory load or handload.

Our PH was not a .458 Win fan, but he sure was impressed with that Lott.

Another PH who is behind the times.
A .458 WIN with a 3.6" box has so much more versatility with bullets of all sorts and can top the ballistics of a .458 Lott from a 3.6" box.
It is not until you put a SAAMI .458 Lott into a 3.8" box magazine repeater that it has any hope of WINning, primarily with light bullets,
for even then, the .458 Win with 500-grain TSX can do over 2300 fps MV at 3.780" COL from the 3.8"-boxed rifle and a SAAMI chamber.
The .458 WIN. is extremely accurate at that COL, with that bullet, using AA-2230, throttled back to 2250 fps MV.
It is a bugholer.

Jack Lott originally just rechambered .458 Wins to .458 Lott with no barrel setback, preserving the original throat in 3.6"-boxed magazine rifles.
All for naught, if only he had the powders we have today.

I will get to the range with the .458 WinRuger again, soon, with HVs and DGXs this time.
Got other chores first.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
I just got back from an Australian buff hunt. I had a really bad dog bite to the face the week before my hunt that required plastic surgery. Since I had a bunch of stitches on my face, I elected to use a .375 instead of a .458, which was disappointing, since I was looking forward to testing the .458.

How terrible! Both for your face and all of us .458 WIN. fans.
Understandable that something a little easier on the face in recoil was used so as not to bust loose any of those delicate subcuticular sutures.
Did you at least get to shoot the dog that grabbed your face?

However, Gunslinger55 was with me and he used a .458 Lott. I must say, that thing really hammered the buffalo. This was a cull hunt, and we took turns "shooting first." The .375 got the job done when I shot first, but almost none of the buff went down on the first shot. If they ran away, Gunslinger put a 500 grain bullet up their butts and that almost always stopped them.

And so would a .458 WIN with proper factory load or handload.

Our PH was not a .458 Win fan, but he sure was impressed with that Lott.

Another PH who is behind the times.
A .458 WIN with a 3.6" box has so much more versatility with bullets of all sorts and can top the ballistics of a .458 Lott with with a 3.6" box.
It is not until you put a .458 Lott into a 3.8" box magazine repeater and give it a .458 WIN throat that it has any hope of WINning.

Jack Lott originally just rechambered .458 Wins to .458 Lott with no barrel setback, preserving the original throat in 3.6"-boxed magazine rifles.
All for naught, if only he had the powders we have today.

I will get to the range with the .458 WinRuger again, soon, with HVs and DGXs this time.
Got other chores first.

Rip ...

One other interesting thing to note: I had a spent case in my clothes...the rifle I was using was actually chambered for .375 JRS, but I was shooting .375 H&H ammo. I measured the spent case vs the H&H. The JRS has less taper, so I imagine the MV of my 300 AFs was noticeably slower than the H&H.

Like shooting .375 H&H ammo in a .375 WBY chamber.
That turns your 2530 fps MV factory H&H ammo into 2430 fps MV, and lightens the recoil.
Easier on your face.
Some say it makes it a better killer at lower velocity, but that could only be with bullets that are not as tough as the Swift AF.

Editting above after it was quoted:
It is not until you put a SAAMI .458 Lott into a 3.8" box magazine repeater that it has any hope of WINning, primarily with light bullets,
for even then, the .458 Win with 500-grain TSX can do over 2300 fps MV at 3.780" COL from the 3.8"-boxed rifle and a SAAMI chamber.
The .458 WIN. is extremely accurate at that COL, with that bullet, using AA-2230, throttled back to 2250 fps MV.
It is a bugholer.

You will be hard pressed to get 2250 fps from .458 Lott 500-grain factory ammo. A 500-grainer at 2200 fps is more the rule for the factory Lott fodder.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Of the two bison I have "taken" one was a 1632-pounder I paid a buck a pound for, weighed on a truck scale by Farmer D. after he was killed, here in KY.
The bison was shot, not Farmer D.
The other was from Nebraska, 1300-pounder that cost me about $3 per pound (gross weight) by the time I got him home.
The meat is $32/pound at the local Kroger.

So is there a chance I could be drawn for an Alaskan bison permit.
One in a million?
Then there is a chance! (Dumb&Dumber)

Perfect .458/400-gr HV test media.

Rip ...

Much better chance than that !!
My best friend applied and was drawn the very first time.. But I know guys that have put in for that hunt for 25 years running and have never been drawn. Its just a no points drawing. You can go online to ADFG and poke around and find it. When you do, also put in for a Unit 13 caribou tag. May as well get the most bang for your buck. As far as travel goes.

There is no logic to permit draws. Two instructors that I work with applied for premium branch antler elk permits. One has about 15 points and didn't get drawn. The other had just 1 or 2 & he was drawn. I suppose that I prefer the lack of continuity to some of the other drawings where they take applicants with the highest number of points and draw from that batch until the tags are gone, or move to the next level of tags and continue drawing. Some ways, the old ways, if not better, were at least a lot less complicated. Good luck on your applications!!

Odds:
After about 150 years of annual applications, I will be about guaranteed of getting a permit.

About 15,000 applicants for about 100 permits each year. A nonresident can get lucky only once in a lifetime. A resident can get lucky once every 10 years.
Unit 13 caribou draw is for residents only.

Figuratively, here are a couple of lucky residents picking out their bison:



OK, OK, not quite that bad, and those are Wood Bison being reintroduced lately,
not the Plains Bison reintroduced in 1928, yet now numbering only about 900 in all of Alaska.



http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/ind...969176964.1536246785

I think I will just go get a more local bison from a place where I can haul the meat home frozen, in a load of coolers, in the back of a pick-em-up truck.
Maybe use a Sharpsified, Creedmoor-style Ruger No.1 chambered for .458 WIN, wearing a cowboy hat, to add to the authenticity of the re-enactment.

Rip ...

Nice setup !!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Odds:
After about 150 years of annual applications, I will be about guaranteed of getting a permit.

About 15,000 applicants for about 100 permits each year. A nonresident can get lucky only once in a lifetime. A resident can get lucky once every 10 years.
Unit 13 caribou draw is for residents only.

Figuratively, here are a couple of lucky residents picking out their bison:



OK, OK, not quite that bad, and those are Wood Bison being reintroduced lately,
not the Plains Bison reintroduced in 1928, yet now numbering only about 900 in all of Alaska.



http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/ind...969176964.1536246785

I think I will just go get a more local bison from a place where I can haul the meat home frozen, in a load of coolers, in the back of a pick-em-up truck.
Maybe use a Sharpsified, Creedmoor-style Ruger No.1 chambered for .458 WIN, wearing a cowboy hat, to add to the authenticity of the re-enactment.

Rip ...

If there's snow on the ground , you should wear a Stormy Kromer ! The ear flaps might come in handy !

Thanks for the Mission Support y'all.
I would have shot the HV in the .458 WinRuger today except for the monsoon and tornado near the range.

I got sambarman338's book in the mail today, LIGHT AT THE START OF THE TUNNEL. I am furthering my education. Will give a review here later.

I cannot resist showing my .470 Capschtick here,
copied from the 470 Capstick thread:



Notice the Seyfried Schtick Extension Base (SSEB) on the bridge. It schticks forward over the loading port, like on "A Professional's Rifle."
Bubba Gunwerkes is perfecting one that will schtick out even farther.

Such a bigger schtick will be used for a Pre-'64 M70 .458 WIN, the ultimate DGR,
capable of using any scope.
It will need some scope to get the weight over 8 pounds.

Rip ...

After a slight mix-up, I got the correct base for the older M70 Magnum (.435" screw spacing) so have installed the Nikon 1-4x Monarch African scope. With this base arrangement the eye relief for my normal position is just right, so it will be staying as is. The Balvar goes back on the shelf. Empty the rifle weighs right on 9 pounds, so if I load even the 400 grain bullets in the .404 I suspect it will get my attention when fired. But it will be more carry friendly than the 10# 11oz 458 WM. But I'll still prefer the 458 for those times when I'm not walking 10 K.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I got sambarman338's book in the mail today, LIGHT AT THE START OF THE TUNNEL. I am furthering my education. Will give a review here later.

Remember RIP, don't read the update 'til you've got through the rest (though you can leave out the first addendum, if you like)

I would have reproduced the picture of your Chapstick here, for the cause, but the calibre was wrong