Ms. Ultima wil be a WinCzechster sister, like Chimera WinCzechster the .458 WIN.

Her parts, parts is parts:

Winchester M70 Classic Safari Express .416 Remington action (made Dec. 1997): ~ 46 oz.

Bell & Carlson Medalist/Extreme-Weather-type stock, black with red web: ~ 32 oz.

Take-off CZ 550 Magnum .458 WIN barrel, threads cut off, short knoxform re-threaded and made into a "Featherweight" sort of contour: ~ 46 oz.

That is complete with integral secondary recoil lug and the CZ iron sights on barrel.

It would probably cost 2000 bucks to get a barrel like that custom made.

Preliminary total weight, dry and empty: ~ 7.75 lbs

Light enough for a .458 WIN.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Barton Hege:
Glad to see you using Spot On! I have worked with both the designer and the computer brains behind this program ...

Barton Hege,

Thanks for the reply. Yep love the Nikon Spot ON!
Can you help us with the monkey business on "Path" bullet being lower than the "Drop" bullet at 1525 yards and beyond?

Blame Cold Trigger Finger for getting me on the BlackForce-SpeedForce kick.

Rip ...

Always glad to be of service

First- Since both measurements for path and drop are for the same duration of time, it would seem the results should be similar to two bullets, one fired directly up at a known velocity, the other dropped with no added velocity. To keep it in units, let's say the vertical addition of velocity was 32fps. So in one second the bullet's acceleration by gravity at 32 ft/sec slows the bullet to a stop and the location is 16 ft above the gun. At that point it starts falling behind the bullet that was dropped. So at the one second mark the fired bullet is standing still, 16 feet above the gun. During that one second the dropped bullet will have accelerated to 32 ft/sec and traveled 16 ft. In the fall to Earth the dropped bullet would maintain a time interval of 2 seconds and a measured interval as a function of the accrued acceleration. The same result could be accomplished by holding bullet one at one spot while holding bullet two 16 feet above it, then dropping bullet one, waiting one second than dropping bullet two. It seem to me that the lower bullet will always arrive at the destination first but that when it arrives, due to its longer distance and time will be traveling faster when it hits. so it's 1/4 after 11 PM so I'm going to have to sleep on this and give it some more thought in the AM.


Secondly, I'm wondering what sort of qualitative and comparative methods and measures are used in evaluating the various stages of scope sights. I would like to perform such tests on some of my scopes. The range of scopes are 1935 Zeiss through a couple year old Leupold, with a wide variety of Kollmorgen, Lyman, Weaver, Schmidt & Bender, Bausch & Lomb and a few that escape me at the moment; tube diameter from 7/8" (maybe 3/4") to 30mm with 1" and 26mm along the way. Yup, I'd like to be able to rate them somehow.

Cold, I do not have an answer for you, yet, but I am working on finding out. I will pass it along when I get it. Befuddles me as well but some days the coffee maker does that to me.

Whatever. Anyway, I doubt that the .458 WIN will ever be "King of 2-Mile" but it is "King" of everything else.

Onward to page 76, for THE MISSION:

Nice stock!! It looks to be already Blood Textured. Saves having to rub it into the first few kills.

You have to watch that UPS. I have a package to be delivered this PM. they charged for 2nd Day Air, but the tracking shows that is came by Ground. from California to Washington is 2 days either way, but it doesn't seem very ethical to charge the higher amount, then send it by the cheaper way.

For those of you who don't like the SpeedForce reticle, Nikon also has the M-Tactical 1-4x24 with a MOA reticle. No illumination and it comes in under $250. Same No Fault Warranty and it can also be dialed in using Spot On or dialed in with it's exposed turrets. 220 MOA of internal adjustment for those long long shots!

Yep.
Been looking at Nikon's 30mm-tubed M-Tactical 1-4x24mm and it is cool.
After looking through the BlackForce it is hard to go back to the 1-4x20mm Monarch scopes.
"Once you go black it's hard to go back."
That might turn into:
"Once you go M-Tac, it's hard to go back."

I know for sure that once you go Burris Xtreme Tac rings, it's hard to go back.

I suppose the M-Tac optics and adjustments are same as BF, just different reticles, and no third turret cluttering up the left side of the scope.
Hopefully they are all as rugged as the little 1-4x20mm.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
Nice stock!! It looks to be already Blood Textured. Saves having to rub it into the first few kills.

Thanks, Ray B,
Pre-blooded, yes, and it is the only color B&C has that remotely resembles dark walnut in a blurry, unfocused view.

I got all the parts coming together for Ultima WinCzechster.
*Winchester M70 Classic LA.
**B&C Winchester M70 Sporter stock.
***Take-off CZ .458 WIN barrel, re-worked to featherweight, if it does not perform it will just have to be replaced.
****The Seyfried-Schtick extension base will be a Leupold Mark 4 Picatinny cut into two pieces, 20-MOA tilt for "LR" shooting, allows use of any scope.

And for use of any bullet you want, near or far:
*The 500-grain powder-coated, cast bullets at 1400 fps are not quite "Quigley," but close enough, if you wear a cowboy hat.
**The 400-grain HV at 2500 fps is the panacea for any beast of the field, from p-dogs to buffalo and big bears.
***450-grain FN at 2350 fps for elephants.
****Any 500-grainer you want, at faster than SAAMI .458 Lott MV, just for one-up-manship.

To be continued, of course.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
My brain works fine with MOA instead of mils.
MOA is more straightforward IMHO, by a factor of 3.6, at least!
So the center dot of the SpeedForce reticle is 2 MOA.
That means it takes 2 clicks of the scope to go from top edge of the center dot to the center of the center dot.
But then there is the complication of a bullet trajectory.

NIKON SPOT-ON takes care of that:

As long as I have a Mil Dot Master with me , and my reading glasses so I can read the thing. A moa reticle will work. , But it is something I need to remember to learn. I have the equation here somewhere.
At least its moa/moa, reticle and turrets.

On a Mission oriented side note.
Some friends were up here from Southeast this past week. Husband and wife. She drew a Delta area Dall sheep tag. They hunted good and hard and she was successful. In the Black Rapids country. She brought her 7/08 for sheep. He didn't bring anything shootin iron related . Didn't need to with me here. I set him up with my SS Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt. In a full flap leather holster I built for it , that a grizzly couldn't tear off his belt. Even if he was standing in One Mile Crik. !!
Course the loads I had in it may have made James Watts envious. 335 gr hard cast LFN @ around 1300 fps. It wasn't needed, but he was glad he had it with him.
I guess there are still some grizzlys in the Black Rapids country.

Red web stock will look something like this when installed. Only this is an M70 sporter in .300WM.

CTF,thats sure a purty picture. Nice Ram! Please express my congrats to the lady.

RIP- I didn't know that you were going to cut-up a barrel to fit the M70. That take-off 458 pictured previously could have made it's way to you.

You bet Les , when at home she packs a G20SF loaded with 220 gr Buffalo Bore hard cast TC. Her husband packs a 4" 500 S&W . Daily.
2 years ago their 11 year old son killed a charging brown bear with his 20 gauge shotgun while he , his uncle and his uncle's dad were walking down to a crik to catch some humpys.

Saturday 9/22 is National Hunting & Fishing Day. I volunteer and am usually assigned to the rifle range. It is designed for youngsters so they shoot .223s. However I've been told that the range mgr is opening the long range (640 yards) on Friday as a reward for volunteers. I plan on taking a few rifles and scopes and may do a range evaluation- compare some older 1" tubes with newer 30mm tubes, and even an old 7/8" Unertl. I'm not sure I want to humiliate myself shooting the 458 at 640 yards for the purpose of testing out that drop chart. I'm trying to go into the evaluation with an open mind- if I could it would be nice to have a blind test- where I don't know which scopes were $100 scopes and which were $1000; but I guess I'll just try to ignore the bias and see if I can test them honestly.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Any thoughts on the very short full barrel diameter after cutting off the CZ threads?

I've often wondered about the functionality of longish 'full barrel diameter' on many rifles. Does it aid strength around the cartridge or is it irrelevant? Featherweight barrel profiles tend to be seen on 30-cal and less. Our 416's from CZ have a rather short full-barrel-diameter, alsmost feathweight-ish, so apparently there is no real safety issue. Nevertheless, when I had the 500 AccRel Nyati barrel done by Mcgowen I asked them to add an inch to the full-barrel-diameter of the CZ barrel profile. They did a nice job, including the barrel knot with the under-barrel recoil lug.

My request for a longer full-barrel-diameter was based on complete guesswork and a time crunch. Now with spare time on my hands I would be interested to know what I received. Did I just get a couple of extra ounces near the balance point of the rifle, or does it have some additional funtion or contribution?

I like your use of the moon sight, RIP, much better with an aperture at the back, even if a big one is harder to see in poor light than a tangent sight. As you might recall, I am rueful of the moon sight's role in knocking the flats off express leaves.

Ray B, following a well-lubricated dinner, I can't recall if I've sent you a copy of my book. If not and you'd like one, PM me your address and I'll get on to it.

The 2 scopes, MONARCH 3 1-4x24 and BLACK FORCE1000 1-4x24 with SPEEDFORCE reticle are very similar. The optical system is different in the BLACK FORCE1000 which is why it more internal adjustment. I don't have a MONARCH 3
1-4x24 yet, but I will soon. For under $250 it has a lot of the features I know you guys look for in a scope.

CTF,

Thanks for the eye candy, the dame with the ram. Quite nice.
The .458 WIN would make a very good Alaskan Sheep rifle with bears in the neighborhood and such.
And of course, it just might unseat the 404 Jeffery as my all-time favorite African Sheep Rifle.

Nice .45 COLT load, no .454 Casull need apply.
Just like the .458 WIN versus the .458 Lott.
Ross Seyfried has proved it.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

Looks great!

Rip ...

Four possible contenders for most suitable rifle for sheep when in an area that Mr. Griz may come knocking. Top to bottom: 375 H&H, 375 RUM, 404 Jeffery, 458 Win Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
RIP- I didn't know that you were going to cut-up a barrel to fit the M70. That take-off 458 pictured previously could have made it's way to you.

Ray B,

Nice quartet of Sheep Rifles.

I have had another "come to Jesus" moment over cutting off a .458 WIN at the threads.
I cannot do it.
Apparently the Pre-'64 threads on Chimera WinCzechster allowed the larger CZ threads to be turned down.
The Connecticut Classic action for Ultima would require whacking off the barrel threads of the CZ completely.

To find a home for the orphan barrel, I will un-barrel a CZ .375 Weatherby, rechambered .375 H&H, and stick the .458 WIN barrel on that.

I will get an M70 Portuguese-Alaskan .375 H&H re-chambered to .375 Wby to make up for that.

Bottom line: I do not need a secondary recoil lug if I am using the B&C stock, accepting it as it is weighing 2.0 lbs,
with full bedding block,through grip and forearm.

I want a McGowen, maybe a true .458" in the grooves, instead of .459" like everything else I ever slugged?

I can get a No.4 sporter left long and have it cut down to featherweight from both ends.

Ultima is no longer a WinCzechster. No confusion with sister Chimera WinCzechster.
She is going to have one of those fancy hyphenated names:
Ultima Winchester-McGowen, like Alderella "Knik Knocker" Ruger-Shillen.

Rip ...

416Tanzan,

The short knoxform question ... yes, it has plagued me too.
Look at Remington barrels where there is no full diameter, about zero length of cylinder, tapering out of the washer-type front recoil lug.

Winchester Featherweight contours have only about a half-inch long or less of full diameter cylinder ahead of the tenon threading.

Yes, the CZ's have only about an inch and a half or less of full cylinder on their .416 Rigby rifles, etc.

I have come to believe that weight and balance or some other function such as mounting a Picatinny rail on a 6-inch long cylindrical knoxform is the only consideration,
as long as you have SOME full-diameter cylinder ahead of the receiver.

Here is the Ruger No.1 .500 A-Square with at least 6-inch length of cylindrical knoxform (1.200") that tapers to 1.000" at the muzzle.
Also a McGowen barrel.
Glad I did that for Picatinny rail mounting purposes.
The weight was needed too in this instance:



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I like your use of the moon sight, RIP, much better with an aperture at the back, even if a big one is harder to see in poor light than a tangent sight. As you might recall, I am rueful of the moon sight's role in knocking the flats off express leaves.

More of a joke than actual practice.

Ray B, following a well-lubricated dinner, I can't recall if I've sent you a copy of my book. If not and you'd like one, PM me your address and I'll get on to it.

Ray B,

Better take him up on it.
It is packed full of techniciana and humor, varying from the arcane to the droll, very entertaining reading.

An excerpt for review purposes, early on in the book, pg. 10:

"... The big hole predated the Ghost Ring marketing. It didn't sharpen the mark but you could see the quarry and everything around it. Lenses were later inserted into peep sights to improve the target size -- but cut light transmission again. Assuming a disc mounting, the view may have been redolent of the modern, rubber-armored scope eyepiece."

"... Isaac Newton 'invented' the rifle telescope and the American Morgan James probably added the first internal reticle adjustment. Getting the picture and reticle into focus at the same time is said to have been a problem until the Austrians tackled it toward the end of the 19th Century. My concern, though, is how the Austrian development of a much shorter scope with the first elevation turret, and its 20th Century refinement by the Germans, was finally defeated by US lateral thinking in the 1950s."

I am just getting started on the book, just like this thread.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Barton Hege:
The 2 scopes, MONARCH 3 1-4x24 and BLACK FORCE1000 1-4x24 with SPEEDFORCE reticle are very similar. The optical system is different in the BLACK FORCE1000 which is why it more internal adjustment. I don't have a MONARCH 3
1-4x24 yet, but I will soon. For under $250 it has a lot of the features I know you guys look for in a scope.

There used to be a Nikon Monarch African 1.1-4x24mm with German 4 reticle and also an illuminated-reticle version.

Those were about $800 for non-illuminated version at Kentucky Gun Company, before they were discontinued by Nikon.

The smaller, $250 version 1-4x20mm Monarch seems to have killed the $800 one.
I am looking for the optical specs on the $800 one to compare to the $250 one, curious about a comparison of the fat 30mm-tubed with the skinny 1-inch-tubed,
as well as a comparison of the old to the new BF and M-Tac 30mm-tubed fat boys.
Eye relief is most interesting.

Rip ...

RIP- I did take him up on it. I am rather challenged when it comes to additional actions such as starting a Private Message, but I persevered and got it sent. On the 50th anniversary of spending my 20th birthday in a bed at the 1st Hospital Company, danang Westpac, I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.

Ray, Thank you for your service. On a similar note, yesterday was the 100th Anniversary of my Grandfather whose Army Air Corp plane was shot down in WW1 and he started a long road to recovery in French hospitals. He won the Gold Star for saving a fellow pilot while his plane was failing. Sadly I never got to know him very well and he never spoke of those events or stepped into a hospital again. People like yourself and my Grandfather make me proud to be an American, Thank you!

I still have a lot of folks ask me about Nikon's MONARCH African scope, it was a tough optic and definitely had its place. I don't think you will be disappointed in either of the 1-4's I have mentioned previously. One of my favorite oldies is a MONARCH Gold 1.5-6x42. I have 2 of them, 1 on a .375H&H that I decided to swap with a BLACK FORCE1000 scope. The illumination on low power comes in very handy for hog hunting. You hit em with the .375 and they do not run off either.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:










Four possible contenders for most suitable rifle for sheep when in an area that Mr. Griz may come knocking. Top to bottom: 375 H&H, 375 RUM, 404 Jeffery, 458 Win Mag.

Very Nice !!
Last I knew , when she is bear hunting, she uses her husband's Sako 375 H+H. I think she chose her 7/08 Kimber for its light weight . And it's her deer rifle .
He is a guide and uses a 416 Taylor for bear.

As they had a lot of weight to pack out and some very rough walking/climbing down out of the mountains. Keeping the weight down was important.

Thanks for the bunk-up, RIP, and yes, Ray, I posted your book this morning. If you haven't seen it within three weeks let me know and I'll post another.

Esoteric and conjectural the book may be, but I'm hoping that in a world of maybe 40 million hunters, there might be a thousand who care as much about their scopes' design as they do the rifles they mount them on.

And while some of the concepts I deal with may not matter much in rabbit rifles, by the time we get to .458 magnums, I'm pretty sure they do.

Ray B,

My Pop was dodging shrapnel from mortar attacks on the B-52's at Da Nang Air Base in '66-'67. He probably got out of there just before you got there.
He was 35 years old when he went, and his hair turned white by the time he got home.
Thanks for your service.

Rip ...