I much prefer non-collectibles- I have less guilt when I hunt with them, less insurance premiums, less discussions with the insurance adjuster regarding full value, and whatever the value is for my heirs- too bad if you over-estimated what you'd get.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I much prefer non-collectibles- I have less guilt when I hunt with them, less insurance premiums, less discussions with the insurance adjuster regarding full value, and whatever the value is for my heirs- too bad if you over-estimated what you'd get.

Yep.
Before moving on to the more financially practical shooters,
note that "buyer's premium" at HA might be as much as 20%.
So the 2018 sale price of that 1957 African might be $7500 + $1500 = $9000, or whatever the collector will be hornswoggled!

In general, the African goes for quite a premium even without an auction house involved.

The less-rare 98% Pre-64 M70 .375 H&H at Champlins is priced at $3200 (2018, now):

http://www.champlinarms.com/

WINCHESTER 375 H&H MODEL 70 PRE-64 - REMAINS ALMOST as NEW & ALL ORIGINAL - MADE in 1953 - 98% OVERALL BLUE - WOOD FINISH at 96% - The Bore as New - All Original Piece - Correct Gun Inside & Out - Integral Front Ramp - It Has Been Well Taken Care Of - Nice Stuff

Style: Caliber: Price:
Bolt Rifle 375 H&H $3,200.00

#277690, Winchester Model 70 Pre-64 in 375 H&H Made in 1953 that remains almost like new and is in excellent plus & original condition, 25" barrel with the correct Winchester 2 blade folding sporting rear sight, Factory front sight hood, Machined integral front ramp, Standard 3 position safety, Standard Model 70 hinged floorplate, Slight monte carlo comb, Standard point pattern checkering, Sling swivels, 13 3/4" lop over 7/8" factory pad, 9 lbs. 1 oz., The original barrel blue is 99%, The receiver blue is 98%, The floorplate & trigger guard is 98%, The bolt knob is 98%, The original wood finish at 96%, The checkering is 100%, The bore is absolutely as new. This is a very honest and nice Pre-64 in 375 H&H that has not been shot a great deal and remains a super solid Model 70. By going over this piece I doubt if it has shot a box of cartridges. It comes with a factory box and hang tag for a 375 H&H with a Monte Carlo comb, but I am uncertain if it is the original box.



Always good to see a Pre-64 "Standard Rifle" like that, even if it is not a .458 Win., which was available only as the "African" version of the "Super Grade."
That would be the SPECIAL one, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Hubba hubba, a stainless MRC, factory-offered chamberings below, all built on the same "long" action:

35 Whelen
375 Ruger
375 H&H
416 Ruger
416 Rem
458 Win Mag
458 Lott




http://montanarifleco.com/index.php/xvr/

V2 - EXTREME VANTAGE RIFLE
The Extreme Vantage V2 Rifle is our big game all weather rifle offered in 100% stainless steel barreled actions. The V2 is set in our *New* Montana synthetic stock made out of the finest Carbon Fiber material with Kevlar Reinforcing in the aluminum pillars, swivel stud attachments and all strength areas finished with glass bedding.
V2 MSRP: $1,775

Hubba hubba hubba -- Turkish walnut and blued chromoly, or Turkish Walnut and stainless steel:
AVR ~ BLUED
AVR-SS ~ STAINLESS STEEL
Same chamberings as with the V2 ~ STAINLESS STEEL above.



http://montanarifleco.com/index.php/avr/

35 Whelen
375 Ruger
375 H&H
416 Ruger
416 Rem
458 Win Mag
458 Lott

AVR / SS - AMERICAN VANTAGE RIFLE
AVR-SS
The American Vantage Rifle (AVR) is a classic Dangerous Game rifle offered in either matte blued chromoly steel or 100% stainless steel barreled actions with Marble replaceable front and rear sights. The AVR in chromoly blued steel glass bedded in a premium turkish walnut stock and the AVR-SS is a stainless steel barreled action glass bedded in a premium turkish walnut stock.
AVR MSRP: $1,776 AVR-SS MSRP: $1,825

You can still get a Winchester M70 .458 Win. walnutted-and-blued.
MRC has shown wisdom and leadership in offering that, as well as stainless steel in a choice of walnut or synthetic stocked .458 Win. rifles.
The .458 Win. is the Rifleman's Cartridge.
Kalispel, Montana is a happenin' place.

Rip ...

A Pre 64 Super Grade in 375 might be worth more than 458 African?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
A Pre 64 Super Grade in 375 might be worth more than 458 African?

Not according to BLUE BOOK OF GUN VALUES, 39th Ed., 2018:

Model 70 Super Grade .375 H&H:
100% = $7000
98% = $6150

Model 70 Super Grade African .458 Win. Mag.
100% = $8000
98% = $7500

Only 1,226 of the latter were manufactured, 1956 through 1963.
There were many more made in .375 H&H chambering, from 1937 through 1959, prior to the "Super Grade" discontinuation for 1960.
Only the Super Grade African continued through 1963, in .458 Win. Mag. only.
It was the only "African" pre-64.

Of course a greater fool than most collectors might pay more for the .375 H&H Super Grade than the .458 Win. Super Grade African in same condition,
but he would be the rare birdman indeed.

Rip ...

4sixteen,

Nice Nikon.

Better make sure the quarter rib stays tight.
I worked one loose with the lil'ol .475 Linebaugh Ruger No.1.
I ended up J-B Welding it to the barrel.

About 500 fps slower than a .458 Win. 450-grainer top load, yep, that .45-70 Govt. load is definitely lower speed than a .458 Win.

Hey! You gotta stop leaving out the powder charge.
Are we not assumed to be adults here?
That is pretty fast for a 450-grainer in a .45/70 Govt., but of course the Ruger No.1 can take it.
Is that a 24" or 22" barrel?
My Ruger No.1 .45-70 Govt. has a 22" barrel of 1:20" twist, straight from the factory,
like the one in the Hornady Handbook, 10th Ed., 2016.
With the DGX and DGS 500-grainers in that Ruger No.1 .45-70 Govt.:
COL = 2.925"
Federal 210 priner
IMR-4198 47.6 gr. (max) >>> 1800 fps
IMR-3031 53.1 gr. (max) >>> 1800 fps

53.0 grains of IMR-3031 is the "Elmer Keith Load" for 400-405 gr. bullets in .45-70 Govt. lever actions.
Gave somewhat over 1800 fps there, and did not loosen screws too quickly for practical use.

See, powder charges are not so hard to tell.

Rip ...

2018 Winchester factory ammo for the .458 Winchester Magnum:

24" barrel

500-grain Nosler Partition: 2010 fps MV
500-grain Nosler Solid: 2010 fps MV

Even as low as 2000 fps MV a .458/500-grainer makes bloody big holes through most things,
according to Saint Aagaard.
New philosophy at Winchester?

Rip ...

4sixteen,

To say that 1900 fps with a 450-grainer is in any way comparable to a .458 Win. is shameful!

Still not talking about your .45-70 powder charge, eh?

BARNES RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER 3 is not such a great guide for 450-grainers in the .45-70, eh? Zero data there.
The .458 Win. Mag. data with 450-grainers is a poor substitute for the .45-70.

The .458 Lott data with 450-grainers is a great guide for LongCOL loading of the .458 Win. with 450-grainers:



Below is actual data, chronographed at 5 yards, corrected to MV by BC, and the 50-yard, 3-shot group size in inches multiplied x2 and divided by 1.04"/MOA
to convert to 100-yard MOA equivalent.
The public range where I shoot has only one position at 50 yards where the ground is level enough to facilitate setting up a chronograph
without tripod contortions and over-extensions.
Or I could use the 600-yard position and chronograph for 600-yard groups prone, or set up a portable bench for those 600-yard groups.

North Fork 450-grain OFP Solid with COL 3.485", 24-7/8" barrel length, .458 Win.:

H4895:
79.0 grains of H4895 >>> 2335 fps MV, 0.52 MOA for 3 shots
81.0 grains of H4895 >>> 2382 fps MV, 2.50 MOA for 3 shots

AA-2230:
77.0 grains of AA-2230 >>> 2360 fps MV, 0.69 MOA for 3 shots
81.0 grains of AA-2230 >>> 2411 fps MV, 2.10 MOA for 3 shots



The accuracy node for the WinCzechster with 450-grain NF-OFP seems to be around 2350 fps MV.
It sure was with the CEB 450-grain Safari Solid in same rifle, at SAAMI maximum COL:



@ 3.340" COL exactly, CEB 450-grain brass FN "Safari Solid": 2365 fps MV with 77.0 grains of AA-2230, 0.53 MOA for 3 shots.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hubba hubba, a stainless MRC, factory-offered chamberings below, all built on the same "long" action:

35 Whelen
375 Ruger
375 H&H
416 Ruger
416 Rem
458 Win Mag
458 Lott




http://montanarifleco.com/index.php/xvr/

V2 - EXTREME VANTAGE RIFLE
The Extreme Vantage V2 Rifle is our big game all weather rifle offered in 100% stainless steel barreled actions. The V2 is set in our *New* Montana synthetic stock made out of the finest Carbon Fiber material with Kevlar Reinforcing in the aluminum pillars, swivel stud attachments and all strength areas finished with glass bedding.
V2 MSRP: $1,775

And the 416 Ruger is there for loading long 3.6" COL, too! (Some free bore and/or leade may need to be added, maybe 0.21"-0.25".)

You get to have your cake and eat it too.

And the 416 Ruger is there for loading long 3.6" COL, too! (Some free bore and/or leade may need to be added, maybe 0.21"-0.25".)

You get to have your cake and eat it too.


I have been following this thread since the beginning, this has been a great source for 458 Win Mag information, plus tidbits on other calibers. The idea of a 416 Ruger with an additional free bore of approximately .25" is something I have been thinking about. What say the experts? or at least those more knowledgeable than myself. Some of these all brass and copper bullets can get pretty long. Since this would be a barrel built for a Blaser R8, the COL would be a non issue. The same magazine insert is used for the 458 Win Mag, 458 Lott, and 416 Remington, I am thinking the 416 Ruger would fit right in. I should be getting my first reloading press next month.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Hubba hubba, a stainless MRC, factory-offered chamberings below, all built on the same "long" action:

35 Whelen
375 Ruger
375 H&H
416 Ruger
416 Rem
458 Win Mag
458 Lott




http://montanarifleco.com/index.php/xvr/

V2 - EXTREME VANTAGE RIFLE
The Extreme Vantage V2 Rifle is our big game all weather rifle offered in 100% stainless steel barreled actions. The V2 is set in our *New* Montana synthetic stock made out of the finest Carbon Fiber material with Kevlar Reinforcing in the aluminum pillars, swivel stud attachments and all strength areas finished with glass bedding.
V2 MSRP: $1,775

How much does that beast weigh? I’ve got a spare Win 70 stainless 338 WM ultimate shadow. Another 20 or 21” 458?

416Tanzan and Lk Hntr,

YAWOHL on the .416 Ruger LongCOL.
OKH that puppy with a longer throat and magazine box.
The SAAMI throat of the .416 Ruger has 0.200" length of parallel-sided-freebore of 0.417" diameter, with a 1.5* leade semi-angle.

As per 416Tanzan, simply add that extra 0.210" of PSFB length (0.410" length of PSFB) and you have Weatherby-ized the throat,
about like the .375 Wby which has excellent performance.

Or go whole hog and Winchester-ize the throat:
Leade-only throat with 0*29'30" semi-angle, leade starts with diameterof 0.426" and tapers down to .408" bore diameter.
That would give a .416-caliber cylinder about 0.601" of free travel, i.e. "bullet jump" from case mouth of maximum length brass to start of rifling.
This sort of throat has been shown to perform wondrously with the .458 Win.

Consider the ".416 Ruger-OKH" with Weatherby-ized throat:

Seating a .416 caliber bullet out to 3.600" COL, instead of 3.340" SAAMI max on the .416 Ruger, will add 8.93 grains of effective/net water capacity
for a load with that bullet.
Assume the .416 Ruger has 101.5 grains gross water capacity, so that is an effective 8.8% increase in gross.
By rule of thumb, the velocity of the load might increase by 2.2%
A 2400 fps load becomes 2453 fps: 400-grainer in a 24" barrel.
A 2700 fps load becomes 2759 fps: 330-grainer in a 24" barrel?

Another way to look at it is that the ".416 Ruger-OKH" will do with a 20" barrel what the SAAMI .416 Ruger will do with a 24" barrel.
That would be with the Weatherby-ized throat.

Now consider the Winchester-ized throat, and call it the .416 WinRuger:

Just flat out add 100 fps for all loads in a given barrel length.
Wonders never cease.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:

quote:

V2 - EXTREME VANTAGE RIFLE

How much does that beast weigh? I’ve got a spare Win 70 stainless 338 WM ultimate shadow. Another 20 or 21” 458?

I can tell you a weight of the older version X2, stainless synthetic, with steel bottom metal (not "aircraft grade aluminum" on the newer X3):
Chambered for .26 Nosler with M1999 long action blocked at back for 3.4" box length, and about No. 3 sporter contour barrel (0.620" at 26" length),
weight is 8.0 lbs exactly, dry, empty, no sights.

I am guessing the new V2 Vantage pictured above is also of similar weight: 8.0 - 8.5 pounds
Buy one, weigh it and let us know.

Oh, I forgot, you already have a Winchester M70 Ultimate Weather .338 Win.Mag. in a B&C "Medalist-style" stock, with a slim, fluted barrel,
only 0.580" diameter at 26" length,
and weight of 6 lbs 14 oz right out of the box.
It's a little over 7 pounds with Picatinny rail scope base:



Yep, me too, and it surely would make a lively .458 Win., with a No. 4 contour sporter barrel,
about 0.670" muzzle diameter at 25" length.
Might be about 7.5 lbs as a .458 Win. with iron sights, no scope, empty box?
But that one, though long action M70 blocked at back of box, has a smaller ejection port than used on the .458 Win. M70,
which has the same length ejection port as on the .375 H&H Alaskan,



all having been made in South Carolina.
Makes me hesitate to re-barrel the .338 Win.Mag. to .458 Win.
It might require some work on the rear bridge to lengthen the ejection port for LongCOL maximum loads.
Otherwise if all you want is the SAAMI .458 Win. with 3.340" COL, just re-barrel that .338 Win.Mag.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:
... Another 20 or 21” 458?

Not on my life.
I have concluded that anyone who cannot handle a .458 Win. with a 24"-25" barrel must be some kind of metrosexual: Overly fashion conscious.

Once upon a time, Winchester made this in .375 H&H:
Model 70 Alaskan Stainless Laminate


http://www.winchesterguns.com/...inless-laminate.html
9.0 lbs claimed for .375 H&H with 25" barrel !!!!

The latest walnut and blue M70 Alaskan .375 H&H is under 7.75 lbs, with 25" barrel, 0.640" muzzle diameter,
about a No. "3.5" sporter contour.

That would be a great one to re-barrel to .458 WinchesterLongCOL with stainless barrel, 25", all metal coated, B&C Medalist stock.
3.6" mag box, is plenty with which to beat a .458 Lott.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:
... Another 20 or 21” 458?

Not on my life.
I have concluded that anyone who cannot handle a .458 Win. with a 24"-25" barrel must be some kind of metrosexual: Overly fashion conscious..

What did you say ??

My view on the long barreled " sportsmen"

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
325gr FTX performance from my 45-70 Ruger No.1, a mild load. The No.1 extractor works well with this flanged case for positive extraction. Same bullet in my mauser action 458 WM should do about 2500 fps maximum.

That FTX bullet will turn into a shrapnel grenade at that velocity. But, the Win will push it along quite easily @ 2600 fps with 4198.

Ya, I don't know what they got going on there
Barnes and the 458 Win. Don't seem to get along or something. First they dropped the 400 gr X bullet. Then they detune the lighter weight bullets.
Then , they drop the loading data for the lighter weight bullets.
Course they seem to only concentrate on their more moderate calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by smallfry:
... Another 20 or 21” 458?

Not on my life.
I have concluded that anyone who cannot handle a .458 Win. with a 24"-25" barrel must be some kind of metrosexual: Overly fashion conscious.

Once upon a time, Winchester made this in .375 H&H:
Model 70 Alaskan Stainless Laminate


http://www.winchesterguns.com/...inless-laminate.html
9.0 lbs claimed for .375 H&H with 25" barrel !!!!

The latest walnut and blue M70 Alaskan .375 H&H is under 7.75 lbs, with 25" barrel, 0.640" muzzle diameter,
about a No. "3.5" sporter contour.

That would be a great one to re-barrel to .458 WinchesterLongCOL with stainless barrel, 25", all metal coated, B&C Medalist stock.
3.6" mag box, is plenty with which to beat a .458 Lott.

Rip ...

Jiminy Christmas I better check myself into rehab How hard is opening up that ejection port? Who does that work?

CTF,

Agree with your assessment of the Hornady FTX, best left to sabot loads in a muzzleloader.
Also agree with you about the Barnes relationship with the .458 Win. and their discontinuation of a 400-gr X-Bullet, 400-grainer never even made it to a TSX version, but wouldn't a .458/400-gr TTSX be nice?
The 300-grain TTSX (meant for .458 SOCOM) and 350, 450, and 500-grain TSXs are outstanding in the .458 Win.,
especially if you allow some slightly longer than SAAMI COLs.

What I am saying about short barrels: It's a fad.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Barnes #3 lists maximum 2562 fps for a 300gr and 2451 fps for a 350gr with 4198 for their 24" barrel test rifle. So for a 325gr maximum speed should fall somewhere in between.

Probably right, and Barnes' No.3 manual is an excellent resource for the broader spectrum of .458 bullet weights.
Sure went sparse with No.4 edition!

But I do not think their data is pressure tested, done by the seat of the pants of their "ballistician" guy most likely.
Just like Swift Manual second edition.
Every load in that book was shot by one guy.

You should look at the .458 Lott data in Barnes No.3 as a guide to the .458 Win.

I used to think a .458 Lott Ruger No.1 just had to be converted to the .450 NE 3-1/4" or it was suspect on extraction.
I no longer think that at all.
The extractors on those Ruger No.1s seem to work well with any sort of case, belted, rimless, flanged.
I have never tried a rebated-rim case in one, but I gotta look into that:
Ruger chambered a No.1 in 450 Bushmaster, rebated rim.

Nowadays, if I had a .458 Lott Ruger No.1, I would just put a .458 Win.Mag. throat on it and just live with it loaded to COL of 4.080"
with the 500-grain TSX at about 2400 fps. Any faster might loosen my teeth.

Rip ...

smallfry,

I was planning on using my Dremel Tool and some files ...
Or just see my local Gunsmith, the guy with a milling machine.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
smallfry,

I was planning on using my Dremel Tool and some files ...
Or just see my local Gunsmith, the guy with a milling machine.

Rip ...

On the rear bridge I think it f’s up the hole spacing and you have to tap another, though I am not positive. I was planing on another 458 Lott for that 338 but a 458 Win Mag works just fine... long claw or not. Don’t forget the 1-10” twist pac-nor’s

I am happy with 1:14".
4sixteen showed us 1:20" is plenty for a long, monometal 450-grain bullet.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I am happy with 1:14".
4sixteen showed us 1:20" is plenty for a long, monometal 450-grain bullet.

Rip ...

Gerard at GSCustom tends toward conservative views on stability. I ended up with 12" in .510" over 15". Up close and in brush is where over-stability is useful, while the typical twist rates are calculated to include mild stabilization for long ogive, long-range bullets.

And as I look at this thread, interesting as it is, it seems unfortunate that so much effort is spend on maximize a poorly designed case/case-capacity. A Ruger case would be a more natural platform for discussing how to find a "308" effect in a .45, well-throated design.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I am happy with 1:14".
4sixteen showed us 1:20" is plenty for a long, monometal 450-grain bullet.

Rip ...

Gerard at GSCustom tends toward conservative views on stability. I ended up with 12" in .510" over 15". Up close and in brush is where over-stability is useful, while the typical twist rates are calculated to include mild stabilization for long ogive, long-range bullets.

I have used 1:9" twist in one .500 Mbogo.
1:10" twist in another .500 Mbogo, and a couple of .500 A2 rifles.
Then I too got smart enough to use a 1:12" twist in a couple of 12.7x68mm Magnum rifles (.500/.338 Lopwah Magnum Improved)
and a couple of .500 Bateleur rifles (.510/.338 Lopwah Magnum Improved).
I finally figured out that 1:15" for the 50 BMG 750-grain A-Max bullets at 2700 fps was great, producing 129,600 rpm.
So the same bullets at 2150 fps in a 1:12" twist result in 129,000 rpm.
More than enough for short hunting bullets of 600 grains and less.
Gerard Shultz may be conservative on twist for the over-500-yard target shooting.
But he is the first to point out to me that faster twists aid the transition from air to inside the denser medium, the game critter,
helping to keep the bullet on a straight-line course
if incidence angle/angle of attack is off the normal.
I suppose if anything could help a brush bullet stay on course, faster twist would be it, but not significant enough to matter.
There are no "brush bullets."

And as I look at this thread, interesting as it is, it seems unfortunate that so much effort is spend on maximize a poorly designed case/case-capacity. A Ruger case would be a more natural platform for discussing how to find a "308" effect in a .45, well-throated design.

As I read that last comment it is sad to see that 416Tanzan is still ignorant enough to pooh-pooh the .458 Win.
The .458 Win. is easily sufficient for 2200 fps with a 500-grainer in a .30-06-length magazine rifle with 24" barrel.
That's with handloaded ammo for the .458 Win.,
at lower pressure than the factory loaded .458 Lott requiring a longer action, same barrel length, that actually delivers only 2200 fps with 500-grainer.

Also consider that the .458 Win. with its gracefully tapered, belted, straight-sided case crowds the magazine less than a "broad-shouldered" .458/.416 Ruger.
Easier to get three down in the box with excellent feeding using a .458 Win.
I will see if I can accomplish that with the .458/.416 Ruger on the Whitworth action,
which is a little tighter in the box than a Ruger M77 Hawkeye designed for the .416 Ruger.

Any detractor of the .458 Win. is also suspect of metrosexuality, probably carries a man-purse.
The old tried and true just won't do.
The .458 Win. is more than enough gun for any hunting use when properly handloaded, for varmints, mountain sheep, elephant, whale.

Rip ...

4sixteen,

Thanks for support of THE MISSION.
Getting a 400-grain softpoint over 2400 fps in a 24"-barreled .458 Win. was dicey when all I had was IMR-4198.
Easy to do nowadays, even with SAAMI COL.
Pairing that with a 450-grain FN solid at over 2300 fps will be the cat's meow,
if they have a useful pair of POIs at 100 yards.

Rip ...

As far as this Brit recalls the .458 WM was meant to duplicate, exactly, our .470 NE. But, yes, it did so in a case that was 30-06 length and so was working at the near maximum of the cartridge design.

If the .458 WM was designed today it'd be, for sure what the .458 Lott is. And if the .300 WM had been designed with honesty Winchester would have merely adopted the .308 Norma Magnum.

To my limited experience there's only been one Winchester Magnum were Winchester actually got it 100% right. That's the .338 Winchester Magnum. All the others are imperfect. flawed, designs.

????
All I know about the 300 gr X and TSX 458 bullets is from starting out @ 2700 fps. And they punch fist size holes THROUGH bears. !!!
The only time I detuned them to 2500 fps was for my wife, when she was packin the Spruce King as my bear watch. 2700 fps was a bit too much for her in the recoil dept. But @2500 fps she could handle it OK.
I figured it would kill at least as well as a 375. Probably a bit better beings its A Lot fatter bullet that still penetrates well and is very stable.

That is awesome !!

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
As far as this Brit recalls the .458 WM was meant to duplicate, exactly, our .470 NE. But, yes, it did so in a case that was 30-06 length and so was working at the near maximum of the cartridge design.

So the .458 Win. bettered the .470 NE for penetration with a 500-grain bullet at same velocity.

If the .458 WM was designed today it'd be, for sure what the .458 Lott is.

Or what the .450 Watts Magnum was before any of the others?

And if the .300 WM had been designed with honesty Winchester would have merely adopted the .308 Norma Magnum.

Or the .30 Belted Newton?

To my limited experience there's only been one Winchester Magnum were Winchester actually got it 100% right. That's the .338 Winchester Magnum. All the others are imperfect. flawed, designs.

Well, why not just make a full length .338/.375 H&H Improved instead of the .338 Win.?
For the same reason that the .458 Win. was a success?
That trio of 1956-1958, .458, .338, and .264 all have leade-only throats by SAAMI homologation, ~1/2-degree for the .458, and more abrupt 2-degree semi-angles for the other two.
Like the tail fins on a Cadillac in the late fifties ...


Rip ...

This is off topic, but I can't see a 1959 Cadillac and not think of a problem woman I dealt with nearly 50 years ago. I was bartending and this woman had about a half-buzz going, Not enough to be able to 86 her but enough so that she was giving me a ration about anything she could think of- Finally she and her husband decided to leave. Her husband got the car and drove up to the entrance. she had some verbal parting shot at me then weaved a little as she went out the door. the door was open so I could see her walk around the back of the car. When she was right at the corner of the car she lost her balance and fell, landing with her side directly on the point of that fin. I chuckled and wondered how she felt in the morning trying to remember who had hit her. I'm certain that it left a mark. chalked up to what goes around comes around.

Sorry for the diversion, but it is a favored memory.

4sixteen,

Great illustration of the .375-.458 bullet cross-sectional area difference.
Underscores "bloody big hole" of the .458 Win.

Also admirable how you are illustrating more loads in the .45-70 just 200-300 fps shy of what the .458 Win. can do,
and then showing a .458 Lott load even slower than that.
It would be much more meaningful if you gave the powder charge, primer, and COL information.
Bob Mitchell long-throated his .45-70 Ruger No. 1 and got closer to .458 Win. ballistics.
I take it that your Ruger No.1 .45-70 has the factory throat?
Bob used the BARNES RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER 3 .458 Lott data to load his CZ 550 Magnum .458 Win. to well over 2700 fps with the 350-grain TSX.
I stopped at 2627 fps MV with that bullet,
but found best accuracy at 2590 fps MV.
Better killer than a .375 H&H 300-grain softpoint with hardly anymore recoil,
.458/350-gr TSX at 2590 fps would be a nice plains game load.
Makes bloody big holes through the thinner and softer stuff.

Rip ...

Ray B,

Thanks for THE MISSION support, however extraneous, it is appreciated.

Q: What .458 Win. load will be best for whitetail deer?
A: Any you like.

Q: Can a .458/450-grain CEB/North Fork, brass/copper, BBW#13-profile, FN solid at 2350 fps penetrate more deeply vs.
the .510/570-grain GSC copper FN with truncated-cone FN at 2350 fps?

A: To be determined.
.458/450-grain SD = 0.306, but bullet material is harder and nose shape different.
.510/570-gr SD = 0.313.
I think it will be a horse race won by a nose.

I have shot the latter through 8 feet of bison from rump-entrance to neck-exit, twice.
Once while on his feet, alive and going away.
Then being amazed by the tookus to throat pass-through found on wound inspection, I got down on my knees and shot the dead bison again in the other south-facing cheek.
The bullet exited true north again!

I am going to have to set up the Iron Water Board Buffalo to the same specs as used with my previous best penetrator,
the .395/330-grain S&H brass FN at 2800 fps.
That one barely beat the .395/340-grain GSC copper FN at 2700 fps.
That is my baseline for the comparison in artificial media.
Two half-inch-thick plywood boards and a plastic bucket of water to each 10" compartment depth,
10 compartments. 7 to 8 compartments stopped the .395 Tatanka solid loads.

I have been wanting to try that .510 solid load to see if it beats that.
How does +8 feet of bison compare to 100 inches of IWBB?

Then I will have to go shoot another 1632-pound bull bison in the rump and see if it comes out of his throat,
using the .458/450-grain FN solid load that performed best in the IWBB comparison.

Rip ...

The Sectional density is only a guideline. More relevant is the shape ratio. If two bullets have the same SD, the narrower one will be proportionately longer and will have more weight per square inch pushing it through whatever resistance it encounters.
An expanding bullet will have a dynamic ballistic coefficient as it changes shape inside an animal. This is desired since we want it to have as much drag as possible so that its energy will be absorbed by the animal. So with bullet construction we can decrease/increase the BC change. Keep in mind that the energy total will remain the same and if some of the energy is used to modify the bullet, it takes some away from its penetration potential.

given the two bore sizes and bullet weights, if "all other things equal" one would expect the bullet that has 120 grains more weight to offset the .052" increase in diameter and have slightly more penetration; but as noted above there are other factors so all other things aren't equal. So we just have to wait for the test results.

quote:

Or the .30 Belted Newton?

LOL I worked with a guy who had one on a 03 Springfield action if I remember right. It was the the first 300 magnum I ever shot.

CTF,

Lee manual, MODERN RELOADING SECOND EDITION by Richard Lee:

300-gr Barnes X: H4198 maximum 72.5 gr (compressed) >>> 2720 fps <<< 57,437 psi, 3.300" COL

My variation with 300-grain TTSX:
In the WinCzechster, 24-7/8" barreled .458 Win., I went up to 75.0 grains of H4198 and got only 2712 fps MV and no pressure signs,
3.390" COL, 57*F, F-215 primer, Hornady case,
but 3-shot accuracy was 2-MOA.

71.0 grains H4198, other specs same, gave 2638 fps, 0.53-MOA 3-shot, and Hornady case was only about 99% full. Not compressed with the TTSX seated out just a little long: 3.390" COL.
That will fit in the Spruce King's box,
and I know you are adult enough to try it safely.
But do tell the kids not to try that without adult supervision.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

Or the .30 Belted Newton?

LOL I worked with a guy who had one on a 03 Springfield action if I remember right. It was the the first 300 magnum I ever shot.

The .30 Belted Newton was R.F. Chatfield-Taylor's pet, mentioned in a 1962 GUNS magazine "Classic Edition."
The perfect excuse to re-chamber a .30-06 Springfield whatever for about $25 in 1962, including the cost of the new reloading dies.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

More relevant is the shape ratio. If two bullets have the same SD, the narrower one will be proportionately longer and will have more weight per square inch pushing it through whatever resistance it encounters.

That is not correct.

Consider a solid copper flat ended cylinder with one being 1" in diameter and one being .5" and one being .25" in diameter. The 1" has 16 times the cross sectional area of the .25" cylinder and being the same height/length it also has 16 times the mass. Thus both sitting on a table both exert a the pressure on the table and of course that would be also e the same going through air or water or whatever. Both have the same sectional density.

Of course where the real world difference comes into play is in two departments. The 1 " long .25" can be swaged into a very long tapered spitzer and of course the .5" sits in between.

However, the 1" diameter can be made 4" long and so becomes a scaled up version of the 1" long .25 and it will have 4 times the sectional density and can be swaged to the long spitzer.

If the .25" calibre was made 4"long then the SD would be the same as the 4 inch long 1" calibre but it would be like a piece of wire.

Thus the bottom line is the smaller the bore size the smaller an SD can be used and the bigger bore allows for a greater SD to be used.

If we go the other way consider a 5" bore slug that is 1" long and again the SD is the same as a 1" long 25 or 50 etc. However, that 5 incher would be like a disk and you could not put even a round nose on it and thus a 1" long .5 slug could be swaged to have a shaper point or round etc. and thus have better penetration.