quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I wonder how well Norma's 458 Win ammo is put together. ??

I'm still looking for their listing of it.
Until I find it, here is a dissection of a couple of Hornady specimens:



No drop tube used to pour the powder loosely back into the case from which it had come.
Powder charge weights obtained by weighing intact cartridges, pulling the bullets, and subtracting weight of primed case and bullet from loaded weight,
using digital/electronic scale.
Loose powder was also weighed separately on a mechanical balance scale and agreed to within 0.1 grain difference.

Rip ...

From the Hornady Manual, H335 is considerably slower than the Superformance powder, with their "averaged" DGS and DGX 500-grainer combo manual data.
It takes 76.3 grains of H335 to get to 2150 fps according to the book.

Rip ...

I would consider handloading to match the ballistics of those loads by using 71.0 grains of Hodgdon BENCHMARK +/- 1.0 grain, with 500-grain bullets.
The + and the - depend on bullet: Length, bearing surface, etc.
The purpose being to give them same velocity for soft and solid.
E.g., the DGX bullet is longer than the DGS bullet, so less powder is used with the DGX, according to the dissection above.

In my little bit of shooting of the Superformance loads, I think I have noted some effects of temperature.
I say BENCHMARK and AA-2230 would likely show better ThermoBallistic Independence,
and they both allow 2150 fps with minimal or no compression at SAAMI COL.
Just sayin'.

Western Powders Co. "says" that in year 2016, with both Accurate-2230 and Accurate-2460 powders, they:
"... began using enhanced grain geometry ... that provides broad temperature stabilization. Combined with the .458 Winchester in extreme environments like Africa or Alaska, these two powders offer a new level of performance from this trusted cartridge."

Rip ...

Googled another link where they are hiding the .458 Win. ammo:

https://www.norma.cc/us/Produc...8-Winchester-Magnum/

Norma Solid 500-gr: 2100 fps ... Is this a brass monometal, that is, long and powder-space occupying?


Swift A-Frame 500-gr: 2116 fps ... Swift A-Frames are notorious for higher pressures or lower velocities, so this is quite good velocity for a heavy Swift.


Killer loads.

Written with an English-as-a-second-language "accent" on the word processor:

"In 1956 Winchester introduced a rifle called the “African” for their newly designed called .458 Winchester Magnum. Their aim was the increasing number of sport hunters from the US who went on safari in Africa after big game. They wisely tried to duplicate the performance of the old and well-tried .450 Nitro Express by maintaining the .458” bullet diameter and aiming for a muzzle velocity of the same 2150 fps that made the .450 NE so successful. The designers at Winchester’s, however, utilized the fact that a bolt action can withstand a much higher working pressure than a double rifle. Experience has shown that when it comes to hunting the biggest species in Africa there is little to be gained by raising the muzzle velocity of big bore cartridges much over 2200 fps.

However, time would show that the designers might had been better off by making a slightly larger case capacity as the muzzle velocity of many factory loaded cartridges in .458 Win. Mag. only was slightly over 1900 fps.

With proper handloads, however, the .458 is fully capable of matching the old .450 Nitro Express cartridges. As it can be made in any standard length bolt action, inexpensive rifles in .458 Win. Mag. are made by many rifle manufacturers and the cartridge is still a very sensible choice for hunting buffalo and elephant - with proper loads and bullets."

Whoo hoo!
Some Norma powders and load data for the .458 Win.:

https://www.norma.cc/en/Ammuni...8-Winchester-Magnum/

Link includes this interesting load:

Bullet Hornady RN 500 gr
Bullet weight 32.4 g / 500 gr
B.C 0.287
C.O.L 84.5 mm / 3.327

Norma 201 ......Max 73.5 grains >>> 2175 fps
Norma 201 ......Min 70.0 grains >>> 2028 fps

Alas, I have not tried the Accurate 2460 with 500-grain Hornady RNSP, at 3.305" COL, with F-215 primer, in a 24" barrel:
74.0 grains >>> 2192 fps AND ONLY 52,864 psi

For review, Pete and Repeat:


Alderella Shilen-Ruger (25" barrel) might beat 2200 fps with 500-grainer at 3.305" COL,
at less than 53,000 psi, with good TBI.

Lessee, about 10 grains less powder and about 10,000 psi less pressure than a .458 Lott MAP,
and all the velocity for optimum performance,
and all that with less than 3.340" COL,
and less recoil than from a .458 Lott load of same velocity.
The .458 Win. is definitely the winner.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
CTF,

Yep, with your proclivity for short barrels, you better go with the .416 Ruger.

For the .416 Taylor to do what the .416 Ruger does, it needs all of 2 or 3 inches more barrel, call it 2.5".

So, a 22.5" .416 Taylor about equals a 20" .416 Ruger.
Knowhuttahmean?

My .416 Taylor has a 26" barrel, so it easily beats a 20"-barreled .416 Ruger with Hornady factory ammo.
My .416 Taylor handloads go 2431 fps MV with 400-grain Hornady RNSP.

The longer barrel will make the rifle a better walking staff for old age hill climbing.

It is always good to have a .416 Taylor for old age, or a .416 Ruger,
for when one can no longer handle a .458 Win. as well as he used to.

Rip ...

Yup, I should prolly get one to have onhand. I do really like the 375 Ruger GG. It would give me another excuse to stock up on brass.

Comparison is good and since I see that the thread has dropped a few notches in The Mission, I'll post some somewhat big bore rifles (in keeping with the subject category). For those that can't make-out what each is by the cartridge, they are, from top to bottom: 458 Win Mag, 404 Jeffery, 375 RUM, 375 H&H. All are some sort of Model 70. The 458 & 404 are designed for close shots, The RUM is geared for 600-1000 yard shots and the H&H is all-around open country with a 6x scope.

Photo to be attached- I forgot to copy it prior to making the post and don't want to do-over.

Nice looking rifles !

Ray B,

Very nice rifles,
and very nice how you did that in two posts instead of one. That's the spirit.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
very nice how you did that in two posts instead of one. That's the spirit.

Rip ...

With The Mission in mind, no effort is too much.

I figured it out.
The Hornady Handloading Manual data for the .458 Win. has not changed since the 6th Ed. of 2003.
The numbers are all the same for those 500-grain loads in the 10th Ed. of 2016.
This is in spite of the fact that the 500-grain bullets have changed from the old RNSP and RNFMJ to the current DGX and DGS.

Even the brass used in both editions of the manual is "Winchester" despite Hornady now making their own brand of .458 Win. brass.

Yep, back when they loaded the old "Heavy Magnum" loads to a claimed 2260 fps with 500-grainer for the .458 Win.,
they were using Winchester brass for the Hornady factory loads.
And they were using a mysterious powder type and/or "proprietary method" of loading it.
Supposedly.

For whatever reason that did not work out for Hornady.
Nowadays they claim 2140 fps with 500-grainers, DGX and DGS.
Nowadays their factory loads use Hornady brass, and a powder that is a visual, volumetric, and ballistic match for Accurate 2230,
the newest version of Accurate 2230,
available to us handloaders since year 2016,
closely fitting the Western Powders Co. data posted above.





Hornady's powder most closely resembles Accurate 2230.
I rest my case, my Hornady .458 Win. brass case, that is.
THE MISSION shall continue.

Rip ...

When are you going to "Win Mag" a 475 version?

for the mission - time on my hands with the lathe and my pocket knife(first time with imgur)

Not sure what the newer Hornady manuals show for loads but my second edition shows Winchester M70 w/25" bbl,Win brass & 120 primers, 500 gr RN: max loads, 2150 fps 72.2 3031; 77.3 4320; 80.6 748. Five other powders were listed giving 2100 fps.

How does this compare with the newer data?

Lady Alderella Ruger, will her hips be .532" and maybe a .515" bust?

Does your scope have an etched or wire hung reticle ?
That is some good shooting !

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
When are you going to "Win Mag" a 475 version?

Ha ha ha. Thanks to boomstick for furthering THE MISSION with this bit of whimsy: The .475 Winchester Magnum, with a ghost shoulder no doubt,
because there ain't enough case taper to allow anything but a ghost shoulder.

Rip ...

Rip ...

Just found a NIB Whitworth in 458 Win Mag, express folding leaf sights, 100, 200 and 300 yd leafs, front sling hanger on bbl band. Looks like new old stock, the seller said it came from a collection of a deceased friend, never fired. Hope to change that real soon. Will prolly leave this one irons only. We'll see.

Hornady 10th Ed. of 2016 comparison in red below:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
Not sure what the newer Hornady manuals show for loads but my second edition shows

Winchester M70 w/25" bbl, Ruger M77 with 24" barrel
Win brass & 120 primers, Winchester brass case and Winchester WLRM primer
500 gr RN: max loads, 500-grain bullets are DGS and DGX of latest make in 2016

2200 fps
78.3 gr. Accurate 2230, the top-velocity powder

2150 fps
72.2 3031; 70.1 gr. IMR 3031 gave only 2100 fps
77.3 4320; 73.8 gr. IMR 4320 gave only 2100 fps
80.6 748. 81.4 gr. WIN 748 gave 2150 fps
Five other powders were listed giving 2100 fps.
Ten powders listed gave 2100 fps maximum. Seven of those powders listed gave 2150 fps maximum.
Only one powder listed gave 2200 fps: AA-2230.
Of the total of eleven powders, RL-7 was the only one that topped out at only 2050 fps, with 65.9 grains, must be pressure limited to 60,000 psi MAP.

How does this compare with the newer data?

Will post a scan of the 500-grain bullet data from Hornady. I haven't done this before? I can't remember ...

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Handloader's Digest 13th edition has an interesting article on the 458 WM ( The 458 Revisited by Ray Ordorica). His choice for best powder with 500gr bullets is Re15. Muzzle speed is listed as 2137 fps from his 22" barrel custom 1903 Springfield. I've been using Re15 with 500gr bullets as well with good results.

I cracked the book on that article and noticed that Ray Ordorica got his RL-15 idea from reading of Saint Aagaard's load with that powder.
Otherwise not much else of interest for me, as that was published about 6 years after I ran into the same wall with 400-grain bullets as he did.
Much better nowadays.
Filed away and forgotten, same as my water under the bridge.
Thanks for reminding me to look it up, 4sixteen.

Saint Aagaards load results were a little different, different rifles, different powder lots? RL-15 is famous for lot-to-lot variability:
500-gr Hornady RNSP, CCI-250 primer, R-P case, 65-75 degrees F, COL 3.340" or less:
RL-15 78.0 gr. >>> 2146 fps (25" Pre-'64 M70) ... 2097 fps (22" post-'64 M70)
Saint Aagaard said of this load: "I have no laboratory-tested data for Reloder 15 in the .458 Winchester. This load appeared safe, but cannot be recommended."
Maybe why I never tried it?
I would rather substitute Hodgdon's VARGET at the same charge levels as RL-15, for better TBI.

There is indeed a dearth of pressure tested data for RL-15 in the .458 Win.
The Alliant website does not even show any.

Hodgdon does shows pressure data for VARGET:
500 gr. HDY JRN, COL 3.310", Winchester case, CCI-250 primer, 24" barrel:
VARGET 70.0 gr. >>> 2056 fps <<< 39,400 CUP
VARGET 74.0 gr. (compressed) >>> 2152 fps <<< 48,100 CUP (submaximal pressure, IIRC, 53,000 CUP is about 60,000 psi in the .458 Win.)

The Swift Bullet Company Reloading Manual Number Two shows a RL-15 load with no pressure data, so we assume it is below 60,000 psi:
500 Grain A-Frame, Federal case, F-215 primer, COL 3.340" or less, 24" Wiseman barrel:
RL-15 67.9 grains >>> 1950 fps
RL-15 73.0 grains >>> 2102 fps (107%, compressed load)
The A-frame is longer than a RNSP of same weight,
and is a favorite for debauchery with the .458 Lott.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Lady Alderella Ruger, will her hips be .532" and maybe a .515" bust?

416Tanzan,

Do you mean Woodelle Whitworth the .458 WinRuger?
Not Alderella Ruger the .458 Win.?
I'm getting confused myself.
How rude to inquire of a lady's bust and hip measurements!
No! Those are not HER measurements!
Seems you got the measurements of the .458 WinRuger cartridge, base and shoulder diameters, that she (Woodelle) will be shooting.
That is a much more polite way to put it.

Rip ...

Excerpt for book review purposes:

Book review: Good book.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Les Staley:
Just found a NIB Whitworth in 458 Win Mag, express folding leaf sights, 100, 200 and 300 yd leafs, front sling hanger on bbl band. Looks like new old stock, the seller said it came from a collection of a deceased friend, never fired. Hope to change that real soon. Will prolly leave this one irons only. We'll see.

Les,

Please post a picture of Woodelle Whitworth's twin sister.
It will help cheer her up when she comes home from the spa, after surgery on her chamber.
Family photos are precious!

Rip ...

I like the look of the dot. I Really like dot reticles !!!
Some stadia is handy for ranging also.
Thanks !

And if he gets the rifle zeroed properly for the right load to match the 2.5-MOA dot: Point and shoot ~5" kill zone covered by the dot at 200 yards.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
In a pinch 458 Lott brass can be formed from 416 RM brass.

That's a stretch!
(But not much of a stretch, makes good brass.)

However, I hope I never get that desperate for .458 Lott brass.

In a pinch, .458 Win. ammo could be fired in a .458 WinRuger. But that would become short-necked, once-fired, throw-it-out brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:
... As aside when .375 Ruger brass was in short supply (actually none to be had) up here in Canada a few years ago some people used fire formed .338 win. brass..
Never heard of any reported problems with doing that..

Oh and remember the world was once flat..

Remember Gert making 404 Jeffery brass from .375 H&H brass?
http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/7181041491/p/1

Rip ...

Of course, to fire a .458 Win. cartridge in a .458 WinRuger chamber would rely upon headspacing on a CRF (Mauser-type claw) extractor.

Rip ...

The one time I tried headspacing on the extractor of a CZ 550 Magnum, it was an accident, but it worked, ONCE!

Shooting one day, alternating between two rifles to allow cooling,
a .264 Ripmoor (.264/.375 Ruger) cartridge used in a Krieger-barreled M70 Winchester



was accidently loaded into a 10.4 Spiridon Moor (.408/.338 Lapua Magnum) rifle with a McGowen barrel on a CZ 550 Magnum.
The extractor headspacing worked to fire the small cartridge in the big chamber:



Yes, I fired a .264 Ripmoor cartridge in a 10.4 Spiridon Moor rifle,
and it ripped more.

Rip ...

So, .458 Win. fired in a .458 WinRuger chamber might work in a pinch, but I will avoid it whenever possible.
Don't need to be messing around on purpose!
Woodelle's chamber has been messed over once before, which is why she is making the sacrifice of being re-chambered from .458 Win. to .458 WinRuger.
Onward with THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Interesting brass case. Would be nice to reverse engineer the transition during firing and have an animated movie of how it came about.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
Interesting brass case. Would be nice to reverse engineer the transition during firing and have an animated movie of how it came about.

Blows my mind!
Thankfully did no damage to the McGowen .408 barrel.
I won't be reloading that .264 Ripped-more case.
It resides with the dummies, as a reminder.

Rip ...

Amazing .458 Win. for only $27,450.00.
But if you gotta ask "how much" to convert it to 3.6" magazine box length, if not already done ...



http://hallowellco.com/lee_hel...tom%20Model%2070.htm

Lee Helgeland Custom Winchester .458 Win. $27,450

Model 70 Classic

22" tapered round barrel with hooded full-band front sight, full-band swivel

base, and quarter rib with 1 standing and two folding gold-lined express

sights. Fully figured walnut stock with ebony forend tip, classic wrap-

around point-pattern checkering with mullered borders, twin recoil

crossbolts, steel-capped pistol grip, classic comb, double-beaded pancake

cheekpiece, inletted rear swivel base and leather-covered recoil pad.

Winchester Model 70 controlled-feed action with custom bolt handle with

five-panel checkering, built up and checkered bolt stop, FIRE inlaid in gold,

cloverleaf rear top tang, and Blackburn hinged straddle floorplate with

release inside triggerguard. Extensively engraved by Barry Lee Hands: deep-

chiseled scroll on front sight band and hood, front swivel base, barrel

breech, receiver, bolt, recoil bolts, triggerguard, grip cap, and rear swivel

stud. Scenes of nine elephant on left side of quarter rib, five on right; and

bull elephant surrounded with deep-chiseled scroll on floorplate. Pull: 14

1/2". Weight: 8lbs 12oz. New condition.

More of a "Business Rifle," except the cartoon elephant in gold on the floorplate:



http://hallowellco.com/jules_l...stom_mause%20458.htm

Jules LaBantchni Custom Mauser .458 Win. Mag. $3,650

24" lugged, tapered round barrel with ramp front sight, full-band swivel base

and matted quarter rib with 1 standing and 1 folding express sight. Figured

European walnut stock with fine classic point-pattern checkering with

mullered borders, horn capped pistol grip inset with engraved brass

escutcheon ready for your initials, Shelhamer-style chinstrap, beaded pancake

cheekpiece, rear swivel base and solid red Old English recoil pad. Mauser

98 action with lever-release hinged floorplate, Dayton Traister trigger,

jeweled bolt, 4-panel checkered bolt knob with rosette and casehardened bolt

handle and cocking piece with original Mauser wing safety engraved S and

F. Scroll engraved floorplate and triggerguard and with a gold elephant inlaid

in high relief on the floorplate. Pull: 14". Weight: 9lbs, 1oz. 99%blue.

Here is a 1957 model that has a current Blue Book value of $7,500.00 based on 98% condition, and that is what it sold for in 2013, including BP (Buyer's Premium).

https://historical.ha.com/itm/...rifle/a/6105-32421.s



.458 Win. Mag. Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 Super Grade African Bolt Action Rifle.
Serial no. 401590. .458 Winchester Magnum. 25-inch barrel with a Winchester Adjustable Sporting Rear sight and ramped spear front sight with cover. Front sling swivel mounted on barrel. Blued action, triggerguard and floorplate. Floorplate marked: Super Grade. Engine-turned matching lightened bolt and magazine follower . Finely wrap-around checkered Monte Carlo pistolgrip stock of slightly contrasting straight grain walnut with two recoil bolts with Bakelite plugs. Cheekpiece. Black fore-end tip. Blued steel grip cap. Winchester red recoil pad. Leather sling. Condition: Excellent, showing limited use. Barrel and action show 98-99% bluing. Action flat shows some wear from the extractor. Excellent bright bore. Floorplate shows a 1/8-inch slight scratch. Stock shows two small impressions near the barrel channel.

If the original magazine box and ejector-boltstop were set aside (retained for re-installation)
and replaced with those from a .375 H&H or .300 H&H (much more common),
one could retain the collector value if one did not beat it up too much huntin' with it.
Might as well get a fiberglass beater stock for it too.
Heck. Leave it as a safe queen and rebarrel my 1958-vintage .300 H&H action which is already in a fiberglass stock.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
In a pinch 458 Lott brass can be formed from 416 RM brass.

Easy way to make 458 Lott brass.
Shoot 375 H+H ammo in a Lott chamber. Instant 458 Lott brass.
Bt Dt. Quite a bit actually.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Here is a 1957 model that has a current Blue Book value of $7,500.00 based on 98% condition, and that is what it sold for in 2013, including BP (Buyer's Premium).

https://historical.ha.com/itm/...rifle/a/6105-32421.s



.458 Win. Mag. Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 Super Grade African Bolt Action Rifle.
Serial no. 401590. .458 Winchester Magnum. 25-inch barrel with a Winchester Adjustable Sporting Rear sight and ramped spear front sight with cover. Front sling swivel mounted on barrel. Blued action, triggerguard and floorplate. Floorplate marked: Super Grade. Engine-turned matching lightened bolt and magazine follower . Finely wrap-around checkered Monte Carlo pistolgrip stock of slightly contrasting straight grain walnut with two recoil bolts with Bakelite plugs. Cheekpiece. Black fore-end tip. Blued steel grip cap. Winchester red recoil pad. Leather sling. Condition: Excellent, showing limited use. Barrel and action show 98-99% bluing. Action flat shows some wear from the extractor. Excellent bright bore. Floorplate shows a 1/8-inch slight scratch. Stock shows two small impressions near the barrel channel.

If the original magazine box and ejector-boltstop were set aside (retained for re-installation)
and replaced with those from a .375 H&H or .300 H&H (much more common),
one could retain the collector value if one did not beat it up too much huntin' with it.
Might as well get a fiberglass beater stock for it too.
Heck. Leave it as a safe queen and rebarrel my 1958-vintage .300 H&H action which is already in a fiberglass stock.

Rip ...

Rebarreling the 3hunert would be the best idea!! Any time you can eliminate a 30 caliber from the gene pool you have done a very good thing !!!!!