And a .45-cal round ball load too, or two or three balls.

Rip ...

It is fun flying by the seat of my pants.

.550"-bore: A 28-ga, 2-3/4" hull, load of 3/4 ounce shot and 18.5 grains of Blue Dot: 10,000 psi.

.450"-bore: Guesstimate of pressure of B-52-ga load of 3/4 ounce shot and 18.5 grains of Blue Dot: 15,000 psi.

I deduce this from Universal Gas Law:

PV = NRT

Rip ...

I think they make shot sabots for the 45-70. Maybe try those. Maybe brass balls instead of lead? Need for speed!

I just did some quick measurements. In the Hornady case we should be able to get close to a 3/4 shot charge. Shot stringing will prob be horrendous but effectice nonetheless. If I get a chance I will load some up this weekend and try them out on clay birds and report back.
JRN

A couple 458 has checks on top of a load of Unique should solve the squirrel problem around my place.

quote:

Originally posted by jrn:
I just did some quick measurements. In the Hornady case we should be able to get close to a 3/4 shot charge. Shot stringing will prob be horrendous but effectice nonetheless. If I get a chance I will load some up this weekend and try them out on clay birds and report back.
JRN

JRN,

Strong work for The Mission.
My approach:
3/4 ounce of 7-1/2 shot works this way, no plastic shot cups, just gas checks and thin nitro card, as described previously:

That is Hornady brass and F-215 primer.
There should be no problems with ignition.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
A couple 458 has checks on top of a load of Unique should solve the squirrel problem around my place.

CTF,

Are you going to put any shot between those gas checks?

I do squirrels with a .22-cal air rifle.

Rip ...

Good results with both ball and shot.
To be improved.

Rip ...

Interesting to load the 458 as a shotgun but I suspect the rifling might cause excessive dispersion of the shot- but the concept certain contains merit for further review.

Ray B,

Yes, the rifling spreads the pattern, but the birdshot might work as a snake load inside of 10 yards.
Here is the 3/4 ounce of "seven-and-a-half" with 18.5 grains of Blue Dot:



14" X 14" grid target.
The two big holes are the gas checks.
They seem to fly with highly variable degrees of crookedness.

Rip ...

The three-ball load, very close to 1 ounce of lead with 18.5 grains of Blue Dot:



No gas check holes?

I am thinking of doing away with the gas checks.
Use just a thin nitro card over the powder, fill up the case with as much shot as I can get into it,
with one roundball as an "over-shot wad."

Then I will try a scope-zeroed sight-in, to see how the one ball and a swarm of shot do together.

BTW, those 3-ball loads feed from the magazine very nicely, in Woodelle Whitworth.
The open-mouth shotshells, not so good, so I just drop them into the chamber and close the bolt.
Woodelle Whitworth's extractor has been set up to allow extractor to engage by just closing the bolt on a pushfed cartridge.

One roundball over 3/4 ounce or more of shot will work on most varmints at close range, it's the all-purpose B-52 gauge shotgun shell.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
A couple 458 has checks on top of a load of Unique should solve the squirrel problem around my place.

CTF,

Are you going to put any shot between those gas checks?

I do squirrels with a .22-cal air rifle.

Rip ...

Yup. I've got half a bag of #5 shot.
As I get older, I get a bit more paranoid about stray bullets in the neighbors yard ect.
I don't have a scope sighted 22 .

I’ve now up both the powder charge and the shot charge for the 458 shotshell. .69 ounces of 7.5 shot with a 12.5 grain charge of Allianz 410 powder. Still using a clay buster 410 wad with a third of a peanut as the over wad-sealed with a little hot glue.

Using the savage 110 with the er Shaw barrel (and the new upgraded slug hunter scope- hat tip) I am happy to report that my sons and I went 6 for 6 on hand thrown clay targets. A may run these through the Ruger no. 1 as it has more shotgun like handling(and no scope).

I'm wondering if anyone has ever done R&D for a shotshell wad to negate the effects of the rifling- something like the one piece wad used by WW,RP,F in their 410 loads, but then a well lubed inner wad that would hold the shot. Then on firing the outer wad would fill into the rifling and spin, but the inner wad and the load of shot would not be spun due to the lube between the wads. the desired effect would be to have a pattern similar to a non-choked smoothbore.

As for squirrels, the population of them around here is effectively controlled by the PUD leaving the access door on the power transformers open. The squirrel crawls in to get out of the weather, makes a circuit - actually a short-circuit, and off the squirrel goes to squirrel heaven- leaving those down line from the transformer without power until the lineman cleans/resets the transformer. Personally, I'd prefer the .22 method of wildlife management.

You ever see that playdough like blobs the people at kiosks in the malls try to sell?
It is extremely plastic and can be drawn out to extreme lengths.
Nothing sticks to it.
Possibly, in a shotshell by itself with shot suspended within the
“Blob”, it can transverse the length of the barrel without the rifling affecting it.
Exiting the muzzle it would immediately flatten and expand possibly retaining the shot
or,the blob would vaporize due to air resistance and the shot would continue on.
Just a thought for the fun of it...

quote:

Originally posted by jrn:
I’ve now up both the powder charge and the shot charge for the 458 shotshell. .69 ounces of 7.5 shot with a 12.5 grain charge of Allianz 410 powder. Still using a clay buster 410 wad with a third of a peanut as the over wad-sealed with a little hot glue.

Using the savage 110 with the er Shaw barrel (and the new upgraded slug hunter scope- hat tip) I am happy to report that my sons and I went 6 for 6 on hand thrown clay targets. A may run these through the Ruger no. 1 as it has more shotgun like handling(and no scope).

Good shooting!
A MAGNUM .410-Ga/.458 Win. load for Sporting Clays!

Rip ...

Ray B and Colt Commander:

You guys are getting too complicated for me.
I am keeping it stupid-simple next time out:



If 3/4-ounce was OK, surely 0.914-ounce will be better.
The 3-ball load of lead weighed 0.960-ounce and caused no problems.
A plastic, frangible, over-shot disk would be nice, if they make those for .410 shotgun?
Will see if the gas check seems to be a pattern spreader first.

I too have suffered power outage due to a squirrel commiting suicide in the local transformer.
Horribly over-cooked he was.
We need to kill them properly, and cook them properly, before they fry themselves.
Eat more squirrel!

Rip ...

Is an ounce of #5 shot more compact in volume than an ounce of #7-1/2?
Maybe a 1-ounce load is possible with #5 shot?
That might be an excellent shot size for squirrel.
#7-1/2 shot is, I believe, the best compromise for both snakes and squirrels, using the 52 gauge/.458 Win.

Rip ...

Finally, a use for the .458 Lott: Heavier shot loads than the .458 Win. can manage.

Rip ...

The Germans in 1958 were no fools, but typos can happen, to anyone.
1958 M-S Magnum Rifle in .458 Win. MSRP was $298.00 in a Stoeger/importer ad.
1958 Winchester M70 African MSRP in GUN DIGEST was $295.00. No tariff on that.
Was it over-priced at well over twice the standard M70 price of $129.95,
and a Super Grade was $192.75?
I think not.
They had to pay for the cracked stock replacements on those earliest models without the proper crossbolts and secondary recoil lug.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:

quote:

Oops. They made a boo-boo. Should be ~5000 ft-lbs.

Rip ...

By gum, the butt stock on that 458 looks like it would shoulder and point easy and well. But I think it would create an overly lively recoil. Owww.

And a double-set trigger, and a buckstix-style recoil pad.

Rip ...

Rip ...

52 gauge/.458 Win. shot loads:
I stopped using the bottom gas check over the powder because I had to pound it in with a wooden dowel and a rubber mallet. Too tight in the bottom of the case.

Just scoop a 1.6cc Lee Dipper of Blue Dot, pour it into the case and push a .460" card (0.025" thick, from Circle Fly Wads) down over the powder,
tamp it down with a dowel.
Bell the case mouth and fill it to the top with 7.5 shot.
Place a gas check over the shot, concave side down, easy start in the properly belled case mouth.
Seat it to 2.500" COL using the belling plug die.
Crimp with Lee Factory Crimp die, or usual seater-crimper die, whatever you got works fine.
Voila.
Stupid-simple, stupid-easy.
I weighed all the shot charges and 400-grains of 7.5 shot is just a perfect fill to top of case.
I won't have to weigh anymore shot charges.
Just a scoop of powder and a scoop of shot to fill case.
Hope it patterns well.
A 14" twist seems to stabilize the gas check pretty well, but it has a very poor SD and BC.
Not to be relied upon for long range,
especially after the shot passes it up and tips it in flight.

Rip ...

rIP
Love the use of the gas checks as it allows maximum volume for the shotshell. Now I just need to get some. And you are correct - a good excuse for the Lott Hahahaha

I have some video of the clay target breaks. Not authoritative like a proper choked shotgun, however it should be more than enough for feathered targets and tree rats inside of 20yds(preferably 15).

Additionally those 300gr TSXs for the 45/70(cavernous hollow point) are spectacular for destroying water mellons with the 458.
JRN

jrn,
Thanks.
15 to 20-yard treerat hunting is sporting for sure!
I am going to have to practice with some clay pigeons too, with express sights.
Never know when you might have to stop a charging treerat.

By volume, fill case with 1 part Blue Dot, and 3 parts 7.5 shot, with a nitro card between them. Top with gas check.
That is pretty close to my latest recipe.

Rip ...

RIP
Thanks for the info. Glad to see someone else is also using the Lee dippers. They are perfect for this type of operation.
JRN

4sixteen- Hornady may be meeting the claimed velocities- back in the day, Hornady had some factory ammo that they loaded with "secret proprietary" methods and velocities of such loaded ammo was supposed to greatly exceed standard production; claims such as making a 30-06 perform nearly to 300 magnum levels and such. The gun writers were all a tizzy about the process, but then what do you expect from someone that gets a paycheck from the company?

4sixteen,

Thanks for the reply.

From page 3 of this thread:

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
few shot on a montana action custom
22 inch barrel

chronograph lab radar

458 win mag
500 grain solid
aa 2230 powder
fed 215 primer
new winchester brass



74 gn 2231
75 gn -----
76 gn 2270
77 gn 2285---2280
78 gn 2310---

Here is the old factory ammo that you disassembled, my condolences to your pocketbook for sunk costs:

old store bought hornady ammo
500 gn solid
published velocity 2260

22 inch montana
2180 fps
21 1/2 inch custom remington 700
2110
smithson custom 98 mauser 22 1/2 inch barrel
2126

the older heavy mag ammo not the new superformance stuff

In their tight test barrel of minimum bore and groove, and whatever length,
it is very likely that Hornady got what they claimed, and at no more than 60,000 psi MAP.

Rip ...

4sixteen,

Good shootin'.
What was your powder charge with the 350-grainer?
I am sure it is conservative, we don't need protection from that information.
Yep, your instrumental velocity of 2396 fps is easily over 2400 fps at the muzzle,
assuming 5-yard chrono distance.
But hey, anyone can do that with many different powders in the .458 Win. with 350-grainers.
The .458 Win. is that good.
Very easy to work with.
For The Mission.

Rip ...

That 350 gr Speer bullet is a good bullet. At 2400 fps it will kill real well. Even at 2500+

RIP,

Thanks for the comparison of throat effects between the historical Lott chamber dimensions.

I spent several days/phone calls trying to chase down reamers/reamer prints for the .450 B-J Express, and found a reamer listed at Pacific Tool and Gauge, but when their people went through their records, they discovered that they have neither the prints nor the reamer. Due to these unfruitful efforts on my part, their reamer webpage for this cartridge will be removed.

4sixteen,

Excellent Mission Support.

Your load is duly noted for accuracy potential with a good bullet for moose and lesser game at moderate range.
The video of you shooting it shows it to be not at all obnoxious in the recoil department.
Jolly good show.
Rubbernecking as I drove by, I had to watch the "$300 Bullet" video by some geezer that popped up after yours ...
Geezer: It takes one to know one.

Rip ...

bcelliott,

Thank you too for the valiant effort to track down the throat of the .450 BJE.
Excellent Mission Support.

I guess we ain't gonna be building any .450 BJE, original spec rifles,
until some archeo-gunnologist steps forward with a find.

Rip ...

I have a confession to make.



Apparently my use of filler (foam wad) with AA-5744 "ringed the chamber"
of Woodelle Whitworth while shooting cast bullet loads.

I have heard of double rifles having their chambers ringed.
Now I have done it myself, to a bolt action.

Save for just shooting 15,000 to 20,000 psi shot loads with express sights,
Woodelle is being retired until rechambered to .458 Ruger or just having her barrel set back the length of her threads and rechambered to .458 Win.
Whatever I can talk the gunsmith into.
She is currently 23.75" in barrel length. I remembered to cock the action before sticking the measuring rod from muzzle to bolt face.
I think I would prefer a 23" .458 Win. if I can get the Gunsmith to do it.
Poor Woodelle needs corrective surgery.

The ring showed up after use of filler with AA-5744 and cast bullets.
I kept shooting her, with cast bullets, AA-5744, and NO FILLER.
She performed well, I was in denial.
I am seeing the same ring on her shot shells now.
And it is a good way to mark the brass for shot shell use only, until corrective surgery.

The loaded cartridge shown above is a handload with 71.0 grains of BENCHMARK and a 500-grain Hornady RNSP, F-215 primer, in Hornady brass.
This duplicates the ballistics of Superformance DGS and DGX 500-grainers pretty closely.
That is a benchmark of sorts, pun intended.
We are waiting for Alderella to see what chopping 2.5" off her barrel does to the velocities of those loads.

Rip ...

That's too bad RIP !

4sixteen; isn't that a Sako in the pic? Is it a 458 Lott ?

A 400 gr 458 bullet at that speed would actually be alot better killer than many think.
Who knows how many elephant met their demise to 458 Win 500 gr solids that were only going 1700-1800 fps

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
For a reduced load in my .458 Lott I use the 400gr Speer SPFN and Blue Dot with a bit of dacron fluff to keep the powder against the case bottom. Muzzle speed is just under 1500 fps. Low recoil, mild pressure and good accuracy.

4sixteen,

There you go again. Good Mission Support.

What dose of Blue Dot are you using in that .458 Lott for about 1500 fps with a 400-grain jacketed bullet?

Rip ...