quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
As I say, just call it the 450 Rimless Nitro Express and leave it at that...Satisfies everyone...well, me at least...

BaxterB,

Thanks for furthering The Mission.
But ... No way. If the .458 Winchester Magnum were to be renamed, it would "450 Nitro Express Belted,"
however, that is totally unnecessary.
The current name is quite fitting.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Seyfried would have been miles ahead to just piss on the Blaser rifle in general and forget about dissing the 458! Those rifle abominations are truly hideous!

Just helping out the cause RIPster!!

Todd,

Thanks for your support of The Mission.
Truer words were never written or spoken than yours above.
That means a lot coming from a riflecrank of your caliber.
Honestly, I began to wonder if Ross was a metrosexual or something stranger (like Walter) when I saw that Blaser.
Nothing wrong with the .416 Taylor chambering, just all the rest of that rifle!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I wonder how long the Zeiss scope held up ?

I have read of no complaints about that Zeiss scope from Ross Seyfried.
He seems to have been mighty proud of it during his metro sexual phase with the Blaser .416 Taylor.
What I glean is that he used it briefly as a Zambian PH in 1983, then went to Leupold 1.5-5X20mm on his next "Professional's Rifle" soon after that.
That might say something about it.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:

quote:

You must be built like Ross Seyfried.

That hurts, but it is true.

That's OK as long as you don't use Blaser rifles, wear makeup, or carry a man-purse.
Ross is proving good fodder for The Mission.
I'll go dig up some more of his rantings and ravings.

Rip ...

Swapping out scopes and other equipment for use in articles by "professional writers" reminds me of those photo-ops taken in the winners circle of some auto race. The winning driver will be standing there talking to some TV personality and off to the side is an assistant that has a stack of various ball caps. Each cap has the logo of some product, soft drinks, auto parts, petroleum products, you name it. The assistant will take whatever hat the driver is wearing off the driver's head and replace it with one from his stack. After a few seconds and the appropriate photos have been taken, the assistant replaces that hat with another, repeating this process through at least a dozen hats. Then the various products can use the photo of their winning driver wearing their hat. Not sure what the price for this photo service was but it would fill the same spot on the 1040 tax form as payment for a good write-up of some product.

All this talk about long leades got me to wondering. I had a M70 458, the barrel of which I considered too short (22") and thin for my tastes, so I had it rebarrelled to a fuller taper and 24". I don't recall what the COL was for a bullet seated to the rifling, so I just tried one- a 500 grain cast round nose. The COL for just touching the rifling is 3.25". Well short of the ones shown earlier, but I don't know that anything I was going to shoot with it is going to be able to argue the point with me. Incidently, it has a Zeiss scope on it, but it's the German model made a friend brought back from Germany about 30 years ago. It's a fixed power 1.5x so I needn't worry about having it on the higher power and trying to find the charging Cape Buffalo in it.

The Descent of Ross Seyfried into Defiance of the .458 Winchester
Part 4:

FACTORY vs. WILDCATS! THE CONTROVERSY RAGES ON
GUNS & AMMO/FEBRUARY 1988
By: Shooting Editor Ross Seyfried
and Technical Editor Bob Forker

Seyfried took the pro-wildcat stance in this "debate." Forker took the anti-wildcat position, for the sake of an argument.
Of course, since I suffer from wildcatitis also, I would side with Ross on this, except for some of his snide remarks along the way about the .458 Win.Mag.!

Seyfried on page 66:
"If you want a big-bore stopping cartridge for use against dangerous game, the .458 Winchester is the only widely accepted round available from American makers. I don't like its performance. You can go to the monumental .460 Weatherby to get ballistics that seem comfortable to stand behind when a bad elephant is coming your way, but your choice of rifles is very limited. If we turn to a wildcat, the .458 Lott, we get the best of all worlds. The .458 Lott, brainchild of big bore and buffalo expert Jack Lott, is a long .458 Winchester.
(Yes, it was originally just that, at the time of its wildcat beginnings. Not so with the handicapping by short throating of current SAAMI specification for the nonwildcat .458 Lott.)
By simply lengthening the chamber in an existing .458 Win. barrel to accept the 2.8-inch Lott case, you have a rifle that will fire both the short 2.5-inch Winchester factory cartridges and the Lott version.
(But by doing so you create extra wobble room for the bullet when firing .458 Win.Mag. ammo in a .458 Lott barrel.
This is due to that extra 0.300" of chamber length that is hugely wider than the leade-only .458 Win.Mag. throat.
Accuracy may suffer, and velocity may be reduced slightly for the .458 Win.Mag. ammo compared to its performance in a .458 Win.Mag. chamber.)
The Lott cartridge pushes the big 500-grain bullets at 2,350 fps,
(Thus it may have been with the original, long-throated .458 Lott wildcat. Nowadays, we top out at 2200 to 2250 fps with .458 Lott of SAAMI throating, if SAAMI pressures are adhered to, which are generously +2000 psi over that of the SAAMI .458 Win.Mag.)
while factory .458 rounds usually chronograph 2,000 fps or less.
(That is way wrong now. Now, with current powders and a long monometal bullet of 500-grains weight, talking modern here,
the .458 Win.Mag. can equal or beat a .458 Lott in 3.6" COL.
At 10,000 psi greater pressure in the .458 Lott 3.6" COL, you get about 100 fps extra MV over the .458 Win.Mag. at 3.4" COL.
By using this excellent wildcat, a hunter has the availability of factory ammunition in remote reaches of the world and the horsepower that is so welcome in tight spots."
Or, by just sticking to the .458 Win.Mag. in the same rifle as would accept a .458 Lott, one can have superior performance all around. Use your super-duper handloads, smoke'em if you've got'em, or get best performance from the factory loads off the shelf in Somewhereland, if you lose your handloads somewhere along the way.

Forker on page 67:
"There is no real secret to getting higher velocity in any given caliber. All you have to do is increase case volume. This can be done in several ways. One is by 'improving' the case -- reducing the case taper and sharpening the shoulder. Another uses freebore; that is, removing the rifling from a half-inch to an inch of bore ahead of the chamber. Ballistically, this is equivalent to increasing case volume. But by far the easiest way to increase case volume is to neck down a larger case."


Mr. Forker makes an excellent point here. Nobody else on this thread but me has touched the throat issue.
Not even with a ten-foot pole!
I'm still looking for any comments from Ross Seyfried on the ".458 Winchester" throat.
Ignorance can be the basis for blissful blasphemy sometimes.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
All this talk about long leades got me to wondering. I had a M70 458, the barrel of which I considered too short (22") and thin for my tastes, so I had it rebarrelled to a fuller taper and 24". I don't recall what the COL was for a bullet seated to the rifling, so I just tried one- a 500 grain cast round nose. The COL for just touching the rifling is 3.25". Well short of the ones shown earlier, but I don't know that anything I was going to shoot with it is going to be able to argue the point with me. ...

Ray B,

Thanks for mentioning throat/leade and getting The Mission to page 46.

You must have a long full-diameter/full-bearing shank on your cast lead 500-grain bullet, with a little dome for a roundnose, not a bore-rider nose, eh?
Can you point us to a picture of that bullet, or a mould listing?
That sounds like a very good bullet to be using in a .458 Win.mag.
Fills the throat, from inside a 3.4" magazine box.
The .459-461" diameter "Government" 500-grainer I used could be seated out to 3.500" in a factory .458 Win.Mag. Mark X Whitworth.
Powder-coated, plain-based, it gave good accuracy at about 1400 fps.
A Matthew Quigley .45-110-500 Sharps could not do any better.

Rip ...

I'll attempt to post some photographs of the rifle and bullet- that's asking quite a lot for someone who still uses film cameras.

If this works, it's the cast bullet and the mould, which is a Lyman #457406 475 gr Gas Check; although I see that I got the moulds mixed, there is also the Lyman #457124 385 gr flat base.

Yep, that is a good one for the .458 Win.Mag.
To review some home-made bullet shooting, Les Staley taught me how to powder coat cast bullets, from page 14 of this thread:







Just use 35.0 to 36.0 grains of AA-5744 (NO FILLER) for about 1400 fps. Good velocity for bullet integrity on game, and accuracy is about 1 MOA,
even in the standard SAAMI .458 Win.Mag.
IMHO, .458 Win.Mag. cast bullet accuracy is improved by:
Larger diameter bullet, up to 0.461".
Harder alloy, heat treat to BHN 20 when possible, with arsenic trace in alloy, like wheel weights. The powder-coating heat-and-cool-in-air cycle with linotype alloy lowers its BHN from 22 to 20,
and hopefully makes it less brittle.
Longer COL, 3.500" with a .461" bullet diameter.

With those properties being proper, the 1:14" twist and long, leade-only throat of the .458 Win.Mag. works fine,
shortCOL or LongCOL.
LongCol is better for accuracy.

Rip ...

The alternative for cast bullet shooting with the .458 Win.Mag. brass is a wildcat:
The ".458 Winchester Special" a la Gil Sengel: Short throat, 1:20" twist.
Then you can use lighter bullets at higher velocity with good accuracy.

No thanks.

Rip ...

Two excellent scopes for a .458 Win.Mag.
Weights in Ruger rings:
12 ounces for the little one.
20 ounces for the big one.
A half pound difference:



The rear ring on the SlugHunter is tight, locked down tight and square and as far rearward as it can go on the scope,
thus scope as far forward as it can go on the rifle, to avoid Weatherby eyebrow.
The front ring is loose, ready to be fitted to Alderella when she gets home from the spa.

I sure enjoy the SlugHunter. The Ultralight is backup that will probably never be needed.
But as every Tenderfoot knows, "Always be prepared."

Rip ...

quote:

I'll attempt to post some photographs of the rifle and bullet- that's asking quite a lot for someone who still uses film cameras.

What film do you shoot, and where do you get it developed.

Granite Mountain Sports in Delta Junction has AA 2230 in stock
$34. A pound. Which is kinda high. But I needed some.

I will say the Nikon Black Force 1000 . 1-4×24 Illuminated reticle scope looks very good.
https://swfa.com/nikon-1-4x24-...mm-riflescope-1.html

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
What film do you shoot, and where do you get it developed.

While I do some (Kodacolor, Fujicolor, and I'm told Kodak is resuming production of Ektachrome) with the 35mm most of the serious photographs I take are 2 1/4" format and I use Kodak Portra VC and NC film. A local camera store that specialized in Hasselblads was going out of business so I bought their supply of 120 film. For developing of either prints or slides I send it to Omega Camera store in Bellevue WA. It's about 100 miles from where I live so if I want to brave Seattle-area traffic, I can even deliver/pickup in person.

One only needs look at the photographs I take with the digital which I haven't learned how to use despite having it for ten+ years to see how true the saying You Can't Teach an Old Dog New Tricks is.

CTF,

Ouch! That is expensive for AA-2230, but you have to pay some extra freight in the bush, well worth it.

https://swfa.com/nikon-1-4x24-...mm-riflescope-1.html




Nice scope, if it can hold up to recoil.
At 16.4 ounces it is only 1.7 ounces heavier than the SlugHunter or InLine: 14.7 ounces.
For the 1.7 ounces you get a 30mm tube long enough to not need extension rings, and an illuminated reticle with windage and elevation hash marks.
I want one too.
Only twice the price of a SlugHunter.

Rip ...

The Descent of Ross Seyfried into Defiance of the .458 Winchester
Part 5:

.416 RIGBY
By: Ross Seyfried
GUNS & AMMO ANNUAL 1989

This is an excerpt for book review of the Guns & Ammo Annual of 1989.
Herewith I demonstrate findings related to the .458 Winchester Magnum in an article about the .416 Rigby.
Bless his heart and soul, Ross just could not resist a dig at The King of Cartridges whenever he coud work one in.
As pre-occupied as he was with the .458 Win.Mag., speaks volumes.
There is redeeming social value in this article,
Ross tells us that Butch Searcy used to make .416 Rigby rifles out of pushfeed Remington M700 and Winchester M70 rifles,
replacing the bolts with Mauser-type bolts.
That is just brilliant, and hopefully the actions were opened to the rear.

1988-1989 was the time of revival for the .416 Rigby, and other .416-caliber chamberings.
The several factory offerings were being gestated, as were the improved bullets. The .416-caliber rifles are now better than ever as a choice for the hunter.

Ditto the .458 Winchester Magnum. Many of Ross's snide comments are now totally erroneous if applied to current .458 Win.Mag. capability.



Yikes! Ross's 1 of 700 original .416 Rigby rifles has been drilled and tapped for Kimber bases.
Note his tendency to use an extension rear base to overhang the ejection port,
same pattern as used on his .416 Taylor Blaser and .416 Remington Magnum M700, Talley bases with the latter, overhanging rear bases on all:











Note typo above, that last recoil tabulation is for a .416-cal/350-grain bullet, not an 850-grainer!

Book review, Guns & Ammo Annual 1989:
Some of the material in the above article is quite obsolete, but of excellent historical value in understanding the psychology of .458 Win.Mag. haters.
Some of the material is of "timeless" historical value.
Overall, the book is an excellent read.

Rip ...

Young Ross corrupted me into taking a .416 Rigby to Botswana in 2001 for cape buffalo. It worked.
The .458 Win.Mag. is my current deer and buffalo rifle.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
CTF,

Ouch! That is expensive for AA-2230, but you have to pay some extra freight in the bush, well worth it.

https://swfa.com/nikon-1-4x24-...mm-riflescope-1.html




Nice scope, if it can hold up to recoil.
At 16.4 ounces it is only 1.7 ounces heavier than the SlugHunter or InLine: 14.7 ounces.
For the 1.7 ounces you get a 30mm tube long enough to not need extension rings, and an illuminated reticle with windage and elevation hash marks.
I want one too.
Only twice the price of a SlugHunter.

Rip ...

It's a great scope. The eye-relief is good, 4.1" to 3.8", but not GREAT. I could see using it on rifles under 6000ft# loadings.

For 6000ft# and over, a person needs to weigh it against the Slughunter and Inline with 5.0-5.0" eye-relief. Each can make their own call. I've found that in low light a scope with an exit pupil 5-7 or over is usually plenty bright. We sometimes shot desert warthogs around water-holes on nights with first-quarter moon.

Check the second "recoil summary" and find an example of derelict proof reading/editing. I seriously doubt that any 416 Rigby is going to use an 850 grain bullet. Oh well, a reader could almost follow the author's comparison if the author had let the facts speak for themselves. Evidently the author felt the facts were insufficient so he had to editorialize with words such as anemic and red-faced. When anyone starts using derogatory adjectives to augment their position, I immediately discount their credibility, and so it is with that author.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
CTF,

Ouch! That is expensive for AA-2230, but you have to pay some extra freight in the bush, well worth it.

https://swfa.com/nikon-1-4x24-...mm-riflescope-1.html




Nice scope, if it can hold up to recoil.
At 16.4 ounces it is only 1.7 ounces heavier than the SlugHunter or InLine: 14.7 ounces.
For the 1.7 ounces you get a 30mm tube long enough to not need extension rings, and an illuminated reticle with windage and elevation hash marks.
I want one too.
Only twice the price of a SlugHunter.

Rip ...

Yup. I'm going to get one and give it a good workout. See if it will retain its zero and generally hold up. I'm thinking I will put a Kick Eez Magnum pad on the Spruce King. I like the pad on the Guide Gun in 3 six bits.
Thank you for putting up the pics.
I really like the reticle and the undercover turrets, the fairly constant eye relief and the 30 mm tube.

The rebarrelled M70 w/Zeiss Diatal 1.5; along with the original barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
CTF,

Ouch! That is expensive for AA-2230, but you have to pay some extra freight in the bush, well worth it.

https://swfa.com/nikon-1-4x24-...mm-riflescope-1.html




Nice scope, if it can hold up to recoil.
At 16.4 ounces it is only 1.7 ounces heavier than the SlugHunter or InLine: 14.7 ounces.
For the 1.7 ounces you get a 30mm tube long enough to not need extension rings, and an illuminated reticle with windage and elevation hash marks.
I want one too.
Only twice the price of a SlugHunter.

Rip ...

It's a great scope. The eye-relief is good, 4.1" to 3.8", but not GREAT. I could see using it on rifles under 6000ft# loadings.

For 6000ft# and over, a person needs to weigh it against the Slughunter and Inline with 5.0-5.0" eye-relief. Each can make their own call. I've found that in low light a scope with an exit pupil 5-7 or over is usually plenty bright. We sometimes shot desert warthogs around water-holes on nights with first-quarter moon.

World of difference between there and a conifer rain forest where you need headlights at 2 in the afternoon sometimes in the fall.


4" is totally sufficient eye relief for the rifles I shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
The rebarrelled M70 w/Zeiss Diatal 1.5; along with the original barrel.

Nice. Super Grade Classic from Connecticut?
Very easy to convert to 3.6" box:
Pop out the spacer at the back of the box, shorten the ejector until it ejects on schedule.
I'll get around to one of those after the Alder Queen gets blooded.

Rip ...

It is getting tedious parroting Ross Seyfried denigrations of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Ancient history. I suspect he just never used one much, with all the other fancy stuff he chased.
And now is a new day for the Four Five Eight.
Performance has been wildly improved since Ross's old critiques.

Ross poo-pooed Jeff Cooper's Lion Scout, 350 Remington Magnum. Have to say I agree with Ross on that one,
but I will agree with Col. Cooper on how to approach Ross's disapproval: Ross will not be asked to use a Lion Scout.

Jeff Cooper:
"Another pundit for whom I feel great empathy but with whom I must disagree is Ross Seyfried, who scorns my treasured Lion Scout. I have been working out with this piece at some length recently in anticipation of my forthcoming elk hunt in Montana, and I think a 36-caliber 250-grain bullet at 2500f/s is "enough gun" for anything short of buffalo. It will shoot crosswise through a moose, in one side and out the other, and it will shoot lengthwise through a lion from stem to stern, expanding to 60-caliber on the way. It will shoot tighter than I can out to what is essentially an unsportsmanlike range. It is short, light, handy, and a great pleasure to use. The only faults I can find with it are that I cannot replicate it, and it is a bit difficult to feed, but Riflemaster Gannaway has just prepared for me 200 fastidiously loaded rounds using the excellent Swift partition bullet. It is a treasure, and if Ross does not like it I just won't ask him to use it."
http://www.molonlabe.net/Commentaries/jeff4_12.html

So, I will not ask Ross to use a new and improved .458 Win.Mag.

Ross is older and wiser now, probably was just doing a schtick previously,
he was schtuck on his schtick, really mostly a comedy routine for him, contrived, and he now knows better.
I am doing the opposite on the .458 Win.Mag., but mine is no schtick. Just the facts.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The Descent of Ross Seyfried into Defiance of the .458 Winchester
Part 5:

.416 RIGBY
By: Ross Seyfried
GUNS & AMMO ANNUAL 1989

This is an excerpt for book review of the Guns & Ammo Annual of 1989.
Herewith I demonstrate findings related to the .458 Winchester Magnum in an article about the .416 Rigby.
Bless his heart and soul, Ross just could not resist a dig at The King of Cartridges whenever he coud work one in.
As pre-occupied as he was with the .458 Win.Mag., speaks volumes.
There is redeeming social value in this article,
Ross tells us that Butch Searcy used to make .416 Rigby rifles out of pushfeed Remington M700 and Winchester M70 rifles,
replacing the bolts with Mauser-type bolts.
That is just brilliant, and hopefully the actions were opened to the rear.

1988-1989 was the time of revival for the .416 Rigby, and other .416-caliber chamberings.
The several factory offerings were being gestated, as were the improved bullets. The .416-caliber rifles are now better than ever as a choice for the hunter.

Ditto the .458 Winchester Magnum. Many of Ross's snide comments are now totally erroneous if applied to current .458 Win.Mag. capability.



Yikes! Ross's 1 of 700 original .416 Rigby rifles has been drilled and tapped for Kimber bases.
Note his tendency to use an extension rear base to overhang the ejection port,
same pattern as used on his .416 Taylor Blaser and .416 Remington Magnum M700, Talley bases with the latter, overhanging rear bases on all:











Note typo above, that last recoil tabulation is for a .416-cal/350-grain bullet, not an 850-grainer!

Book review, Guns & Ammo Annual 1989:
Some of the material in the above article is quite obsolete, but of excellent historical value in understanding the psychology of .458 Win.Mag. haters.
Some of the material is of "timeless" historical value.
Overall, the book is an excellent read.

Rip ...

RIP, thank you for another favorite article. I've re-read that piece many a time, and have done so again with your posting. I had a paper copy of that article for a long time, though I don't know where it is these days.
It is probably the article that tipped the scales for me to get a 416 Rigby, in 1992.
Some of the lines have stuck with me since the first reading:

"Four-sixteenie." Classic.

"Reach out and touch someone . . . hard!"

If you read the article without taking offense at his slighting a less-than-optimally-loaded 458, you will see that he makes an excellent case for the 416 Rigby as the ultimate all-around African caliber. I had forgotten that he even calls it the ultimate forest elk stopper. He might be right on that last one, but a 416Rigby is always going to be a bit heavier on a mountain than a Tikka in 338WM.

Ross calls the recoil of the 400gn at 2400 "severe, ouch." Yet Jack O'Connor approved of that load, leaving the 400gn at a faster 2600fps as severe. (I forget Jack's exact words, but he didn't like 2600fps with 400grains. 'grim'?) Both of these writers bring out a fact that most comparisons ignore. The 416 Rigby is an ideal candidate for hand loading with modern components. It far exceeds nominal specs and any comparison that ignores the hand loaded 416 Rigby is simply not a fair comparison.

Ross also pushes the 350grain to velocities that make open plains game hunting a delight, especially before the age of inexpensive range-finders. His only limitation there was the IMR 4350 powder. With Reloder 17 it is easy to get over 2800fps with no pressure signs and flawless extraction. I'll post an picture to show some nice 416Rigby cases that clock around 2825 with a 350TTSX:

Accurate?
Here is the field sight-in off a car bonnet/hood with two different shooters:


The results, of course, were fairly predictable:


Now I'm not saying that a person couldn't have shot that impala with a 458. It was only a 75 yard shot as the impala walked across a small opening following the does of his herd. I just sat down on my can with the 416Rigby on my knees and waited until Mr. Herd stepped across.

Back to recoil and all-around plains game. There were a couple of years when we only had a couple of 416Rigbys to hunt with. We felt ready for anything. The recoil at 2825fps with a 350gn goes up just a little over Ross' 6000 ft# level. I would not call it "ouch." But the rifle is 11 pounds with a scope. That makes the lighter 416 Ruger in the African model very attractive.

If I might attribute Ross' article to leading me to a 416Rigby, some of Ray Atkinson's praise of the 416Ruger in the African model may lead to such a purchase. It's hard to decide between a 20"-barrel Alaskan and a 23"-barrel African. I'll just wait and see how I feel when that day comes.

Another point to appreciate: Ross' mentor Cameron considered the 416 to be nicely balanced by a "275Rigby," which is the imperial name of the venerable 7x57. That is not a bad combo. Almost like a 416 and a 270. While I'm partial to the 338WM as a light rifle, we might bring over a 308 one of these days. 416 and 308. Not bad. It's a little restricted at 400 yards, the 270 might be just a tad better for a 400-yard Dorcas shot, but I can only remember two animals that I've taken at 400 yards, both in wide, wide, open plains. A person just doesn't need an easy-400-yard rifle in most of Africa. For that loss of a 1 in 100 shot-opportunity there are plenty of other animals. So maybe in Namibia or Chad one could replace that 308 with a 270, if the 338WM was not around.

Closing lines: "So what do we have here? Could it be that we are looking at the real candidate for an all-around rifle?" Yes. If walking around Africa with one rifle, the 416 Rigby is a contender for sitting at the top of the pyramid. Other calibers are good, and some could argue 'as good,' but not better.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
[QUOTE]
Nice. Super Grade Classic from Connecticut?
Very easy to convert to 3.6" box:
Pop out the spacer at the back of the box, shorten the ejector until it ejects on schedule.
I'll get around to one of those after the Alder Queen gets blooded.

Rip ...

Yes, It was made in 1996, I purchased it new then a year or so later had CP Donnelly rebarrel it. I like the added heft and muzzle shift of balance. With the cast 350 gr bullets and full case of TrailBoss it shoots like a 30-30. there is merit to lengthening the magazine since it appears all I'd have to do is grind out the rear block, but I don't know that I'd appreciate the increased ballistics since I have chronographed 500 gr Hornadys at 2100 fps. I'm not into proving that I can get muzzle energy equal to the much bigger cases. I'm still waiting for the survey of Cape Buffs shot with the 458WM and see how they rate it compared to the bigger cartridges. And besides, as is, it has prevented attacks by marauding elephants in my town for more than 20 years - check the records and see the proof for yourself.

416Tanzan,

Great stuff there, thanks.

Finn Aagaard was my first GUN GURU, then came Ross and I was ashamed of the .458 Win.Mag.
No more!
It's all good now.

My .416 Rigby kick was for several years before Y2K, and several years after.
I went to a Tennessee game farm with a Ruger No.1 .416 Rigby, 350-grain X-Bullets at 2700 fps, shot a 2000-pound water buffalo at 50 yards,
then a 100-pound fallow deer at 342 yards.
Then I took a Ruger RSM .416 Rigby to Botswana in 2001, 380-grain GSC FN at 2500 fps: Cape Buffalo HAMMER! And a bugholer for accuracy.
The first three GSC bullets I ever shot went into one hole at 100 yards:
105.0 grains of H4831 from the Ruger RSM.
That is the "John Buhmiller/Jack O'Connor" load for any 400 or 410-grainer in the .416 Rigby.

It seems that Ross stopped at 103.0 grains of H4831, due to babying his antique Rigby rifle.

105.0 grains of H4831 works wonders with 380-grain GSC FN too.
So I will add your RL-17 for 350-grainers to the mix.
Maybe RL-16 too ... that will be a good excuse to get out the RSM, "Ol'Purple," is her name,
for the glossy, dark, plum-colored hue of her receiver bluing.

(Note to self, and to 416Tanzan: We forgot to post each picture, each page scan, etc., as a separate reply so as to move this page count along. I will try to remember to do that, hope you can too.)

Rip ...

Ray B,

I am sure glad you are there to keep the hometown safe from marauding elephants, with your Four-five-eighty.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
... there is merit to lengthening the magazine since it appears all I'd have to do is grind out the rear block ...

You drill out the 4 little spot welds on the back of the box.
Use your drill press and do it precisely-nicely,
supporting the parts with wood blocks as a rigged jig, however,
and the spacer will just fall off the inside of the back of the box.
The only grinding on the back of the box is just smoothing of the edges of the tiny holes,
like with a Dremel Tool polishing spud.
They are of no consequence to function.
They could be filled if desired, and even a thin plate re-inforcement applied to the outside rear of box.

The real grinding comes in shortening the ejector about 0.200",
keeping the same leading edge shape as the original,
so it ejects the longer COL later as the bolt is pulled rearward.
Shorten and try, shorten and try ... until just right.

That's all. Just two little tricks to turn a 3.4" box into a 3.6" box on a Winchester M70.
The ejection port is the same on both .458 Win.Mag. and .375 H&H M70s.
A .338 Win.Mag. M70 Extreme Weather has a smaller ejection port, a longer rear bridge, would require extra work, serious milling machine work.
It is otherwise same "M70 LA" configuration.

But, like you say, really not necessary for elephant patrol with 500-grainers at +2150 fps in a 24" barrel,
of the MIGHTY FOUR-FIVE-EIGHTY.
Use AA-2230, no powder compression, and less than 53,000 PSI.
Any higher velocity might detract from speedy followup shots,
in the rare case of not immobilizing the elephant with your first shot.
Ross Seyfried has given up on his .458 Winchester schtick, surely.
Progress waits for no one, not even Ross Seyfried.

Rip ...

quote:

One thing he got right for sure is ... the 416 Rigby certainly can do everything the 375 H&H can.

Something that will surely set off the plain vanilla "your best bet is a scoped 375" crowd!

Todd,

Ross subsequently opined that the best .416-caliber rifle chambering was a .416 Dakota.
Even Ross has been known to change an opinion or two.
I bet he just loves the Four-Five-Eighty nowadays.

Rip ...

The best bet medium rifle is a 9.3x64. Same ballistics as a .375 Rimless Nitro Express, and it was designed to fit in a standard length action back in 1910!

If you have a popularly priced CZ in 416 Rigby, and have a hankering for a .458, why not just re barrel to the 450 Rigby? Load it to 2,150 - 2,250 fps at a ridiculously low pressure. The larger rifle will help soak up the recoil. Brass is easy to find these days, as well.

Instead of "Long Loading" the .458 Win Mag, and modifying the magazine and bolt, why not just get a used 7mm STW, 375 H&H, etc. - then turn it into the .458 Lott. It also allows doing everything the .458 Win Mag does, at a lower pressure.

I think the best use of the .458 Win Mag is as a bear buster with 400-grain premium bullets. It also would shine in hunting large ungulates at moderate ranges with 350 or 400-grain bullets.

So sayeth Forrest Gump.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Todd,

Ross subsequently opined that the best .416-caliber rifle chambering was a .416 Dakota.
Even Ross has been known to change an opinion or two.
I bet he just loves the Four-Five-Eighty nowadays.

Rip ...

Dakota vs Rigby not withstanding Ripster, my comment was more directed at the 416 (any flavor) being superior to the widely accepted 375 H&H (Vanilla)!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Dakota vs Rigby not withstanding Ripster, my comment was more directed at the 416 (any flavor) being superior to the widely accepted 375 H&H (Vanilla)!

Yup, I got that, and it is a good point, unlike Bro'Dart's comments.
Bro'Dart still does not get it at all.
And he claims to speak as wisely as Forrest Gump?
Sheesh!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
The best bet medium rifle is a 9.3x64. Same ballistics as a .375 Rimless Nitro Express, and it was designed to fit in a standard length action back in 1910!
Is that really such a great recommendation for the 9.3x64mm, just a little less whomp than from a .375 H&H, eh?

If you have a popularly priced CZ in 416 Rigby, and have a hankering for a .458, why not just re barrel to the 450 Rigby? Load it to 2,150 - 2,250 fps at a ridiculously low pressure. The larger rifle will help soak up the recoil. Brass is easy to find these days, as well.
I have done more than that, and nothing is quite as satisfying as the song of the Four-Five-Eight.
I have a .450 Dakota Mauser Banner M98 Magnum (4+1 fiveshooter), so would not care for a .450 Rigby at all.
I rebarreled one CZ .416 Rigby to 460 Wby.Mag., then set that barrel back and did a .458/.338 LapuaMag. 2.7" with 22" barrel instead.
I rechambered a CZ 550 Magnum .458 Win.Mag. to the same .458/.338 LapuaMag, left it 25" long.
All three of those will easily do +2400 fps with 500 grainers, and I never cared for anything over 2500 fps with the 460 Wby.Mag.
I prefer necked-up .338 Lop'wah brass, and have a great stash of 450 Dakota brass.
Who needs a 460 Wby.Mag. or a .450 Rigby copycat of the .450 Dakota?
I rechambered another CZ 550 Magnum .458 Win.Mag. to .458 Lott and the consolation there is the residual Win.Mag. throat
and preserved 5+1 sixshooter capacity (6+1 sevenshooter with a Wisner floorplate),
so I know I can get at least 2350 fps with 500-grainers, like Ross Seyfried said of the original wildcat .458 Lott,
just like with the .458 Win.Mag. used in the same action can do.
I would not expect that with a short-throated SAAMI .458 Lott.


Instead of "Long Loading" the .458 Win Mag, and modifying the magazine and bolt,
... You mean magazine and bolt stop/ejector. ...
why not just get a used 7mm STW, 375 H&H, etc. - then turn it into the .458 Lott.
I have done the Whitworth Mark X .458 Lott.
I have done the Ruger No.1 .458 Lott conversion to 450 NE also,
and now I wish it had been a .458 Win.Mag. to start with and I had left it as a .458 Win.Mag.
A Ruger No.1 .458 Win.Mag. was my first big bore, back in the 1980s,
wish I had never traded that one off.
I blame Ross Seyfried's misguided youth for that.
Both Ross and the .458 Win.Mag. are mature now,
both in their seventh decade. Me too, over 60 years old. Old enough to know better when I see it.
It also allows doing everything the .458 Win Mag does, at a lower pressure.
Baloney! You have not been paying attention. Forrest Gump has better reading comprehension.



I think the best use of the .458 Win Mag is as a bear buster with 400-grain premium bullets.
It also would shine in hunting large ungulates at moderate ranges with 350 or 400-grain bullets.
Excellent for all that, no doubt, anything weighing less than a ton.
Back it up with FN solids of 450 to 500 grains if over a ton.

So sayeth Forrest Gump.
Seriuosly? Forrest Gump knows better than some of the above! Don't blame him for all of it.

The simple fact is that for internal ballistic purposes,
the .458 Win.Mag. with SAAMI throat has a greater effective case capacity
than the .458 Lott with SAAMI throat. See the words of Bob Forker at the bottom of the previous page of this thread:

"There is no real secret to getting higher velocity in any given caliber. All you have to do is increase case volume. This can be done in several ways. One is by 'improving' the case -- reducing the case taper and sharpening the shoulder. Another uses freebore; that is, removing the rifling from a half-inch to an inch of bore ahead of the chamber. Ballistically, this is equivalent to increasing case volume. But by far the easiest way to increase case volume is to neck down a larger case."

Used in the same length action, the .458 Win.Mag. wins the match against the .458 Lott,
for greatest velocity at lowest pressure.
It may be a TKO, but it is a fact.

Rip ...

Forrest Gump says the 9.3x64mm Brenneke is like plain vanilla, not a box of chocolates, and should never be used in a Blaser.
He also requests that Lawndart review this:




Rip ...

Apples to apples: use the same, longish .458 Win throat at the end of the LoTT. Then you can seat the bullet out a touch longer than you do with the 458. More room for combustion in the Lott case, without having the bullet waving in the breeze.

There is only a need to achieve 2,150 to 2,200 fps. I never knew that the Lott held less powder than the Winchester.

The 450 Rigby reaches your goal with less pressure, and a properly sized gun for using that level of horsepower.

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Apples to apples: use the same, longish .458 Win throat at the end of the LoTT.
That is how Jack Lott did it originally. The initial CIP homologation of the .458 Lott had exactly a .458 Win.Mag. throat tacked onto the 2.8" .458 Lott chamber.
Subsequently changed to current .458 Lott shown in my drawing above.
Then you can seat the bullet out a touch longer than you do with the 458.
As demonstrated previously,
when using the 5 cannelures for secure crimping on the 500-grain Barnes TSX,
with the 2.5" brass versus the 2.8" brass,
in a CZ 550 Magnum magazine box:
Longest COL possible with .458 Win.Mag. brass using 5th cannelure = 3.780"
Longest COL possible with .458 Lott brass using second cannelure = 3.730"
And the .458 Lott throat is shorter so you cannot add as much powder as you can in the .458 Win.Mag., if limited by pressure with fast powders.
The .458 Winner Magnum wins again, in this specific little instance.

More room for combustion in the Lott case,
Baloney again! All that extra case length (0.300") is just filled with bullet, not powder.
without having the bullet waving in the breeze.
Bullet set against 100% load, securely crimped, no problem.
Just like Ross Seyfried does not have to use Jeff Cooper's .350 Remington Magnum Lion Scout,
Lawndart does not have to use my .458 Winchester Magnum LongCOL.

There is only a need to achieve 2,150 to 2,200 fps.
The Standard SAAMI .458 Win.Mag. with AA-2230 and a 24" barrel at 3.305" COL easily does that, at less than 53,000 PSI.
I never knew that the Lott held less powder than the Winchester.
Well, you do now.
The 450 Rigby reaches your goal with less pressure, and a properly sized gun for using that level of horsepower.
Say .450 Dakota, not .450 Rigby copycat, please.

So I am bored with the usual 9.5-pound .450 Dakota.
I want a 7.5-pound .458 Win.Mag. LongCOL.
That would one-up Ross Seyfried's "Professional's Rifle."

Rip ...