quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
When re-barreled from .375 H&H, this donor rifle will make a nice .458 Win. Mag.: Assembled in Portugal, disassembled and re-assembled in Kentucky.




I'll use one of those high-class leather slip-on buttpads on this former safe queen,
and a rod through the grip, and a barrel lug with third crossbolt, and pillars with glass bedding ... Wisner "African" rear sight, barrel band sling, 25" barrel ...


Rip ...

That will be similar to the cabelas anniversary 458. I like those.

With the aim of helping get to 304 pages, but at the risk of seeming anti win mag, I have an honest question. Assuming a magazine length of 3.6", what would be the actual performance difference between a longclaw win mag and a rechambered Lott with the win mag throat at equal COL? At first glance, it seems like velocities and pressures would be equal unless lighter shorter bullets in the win mag couldnt be seated to 3.6".

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
With the aim of helping get to 304 pages, but at the risk of seeming anti win mag, I have an honest question. Assuming a magazine length of 3.6", what would be the actual performance difference between a longclaw win mag and a rechambered Lott with the win mag throat at equal COL? At first glance, it seems like velocities and pressures would be equal unless lighter shorter bullets in the win mag couldnt be seated to 3.6".

That has been beat to death.


The .458 Lott may win a few rounds, but the .458 Winchester Magnum wins the match.
The .458 Lott is the horse:

You have not read all 43 pages of the thread have you, bcelliott?
But thanks for the reply, helping with the mission.

Rip

A trick to get to page 44, page velocity having slowed a bit lately, for BaxterB, a man of good taste:

That did it, pictures from a Cabela's sale.

Rip ...

Winchester never made this now discontinued model in .458 Win. Mag.:



Maybe that is a good thing.

Rip ...

Now to get halfway to page 45:
More for BaxterB, my amateur photos of another Cabela's .458 Win. Mag., what better caliber to commemorate a half century?
Yep, they jumped the shark with this one, and landed in the mouth of a big mouth bass:

That last picture in a separate reply triggered a "flood control warning,"
suggesting I wait a few minutes before posting again,
but I was allowed to add the last picture to this reply.

Onward to page 45, soon!

Rip ...

Beautiful rifles !
Good job !
That laminated stocked 375 looks like it would shoulder well. But would give a good rise when the trigger was squeezed.

Yup! Very nice rifles! Hmmm...hmmmm.... gets me reaching for my wallet...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
With the aim of helping get to 304 pages, but at the risk of seeming anti win mag, I have an honest question. Assuming a magazine length of 3.6", what would be the actual performance difference between a longclaw win mag and a rechambered Lott with the win mag throat at equal COL? At first glance, it seems like velocities and pressures would be equal unless lighter shorter bullets in the win mag couldnt be seated to 3.6".

That has been beat to death.


The .458 Lott may win a few rounds, but the .458 Winchester Magnum wins the match.
The .458 Lott is the horse:

You have not read all 43 pages of the thread have you, bcelliott?
But thanks for the reply, helping with the mission.

Rip

I have indeed read the whole thread, but my retention over months is obviously lacking--perhaps because I'm new to this cartridge and am not in the reloading trenches with it on a regular basis. Seems that I'm having trouble visualizing what's actually happening when bullets are seated so far away from the rifling. Guess I need to go back and read again.

There is some good ju-ju in the throat of a .458 Winchester Magnum.
Is there any other cartridge with a throat like it?
Sumbuddy who know please tell me if there is!

At the end of the case mouth chamfer in the chamber, the chamber throat starts with a diameter of 0.469" and trails off in a 0*29'30" leade,
trailing out to bore diameter of 0.450" way on out there.

Somehow (good ju-ju) this allows a .458 Win. Mag. to deliver either higher velocity or lower pressure or both, compared to the .458 Lott
when both are loaded to 3.6" COL or less,
as long as the bullet is long enough to work in the shorter brass, whatever the bullet weight.
And somehow (good ju-ju) excellent accuracy can be obtained with the long-leade-only throat of the .458 Win. Mag.

The .458 Lott might be able to beat the .458 Win. Mag. for top velocity with the 400-grain HV,
if both are limited to 3.6" rifle magazine boxes.
But that is only by an extra 0.1" of length for the lot.
The .458 Win. Mag. can only go to 3.495" COL with that bullet in a 3.6" box, due to insufficient bullet length to seat out any farther.
The .458 Lott can only go to 3.595" COL due to box length restriction.

In a 3.8" box, the .458 Win. Mag. can actually load the 500-grain TSX to longer COL than the .458 Lott, by securely crimping the bullet on the fifth and last cannelure on the bullet with the 2.5" brass.
With the 2.8" brass of the .458 Lott, and the crimping locations on the bullet, the .458 Lott must be loaded to shorter COL than the Win. Mag.
And if you do load both to same COL with no crimp,
the good ju-ju throat of the .458 Win. Mag. makes it champion.







I do not need to go any faster than 2500 fps with the 400-grain HV. That is enough of a good thing for me.
Even if the .458 Lott could go faster with the 400-grain HV bullet, I do not want to learn another trajectory.
2500 fps is already dialed in.

Rip ...

That 78gn load is nice.

Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
That 78gn load is nice.

Good shooting.

Thank you, yep, it is a nice load, 3.780" COL, fired in the 24-7/8"-barreled WinCzechster.
And it ought to be easily duplicated with the .458 Winchester Magnum Flanged 2.5".
But trimming that 2.6" brass down to 2.5" is a nuisance.
So, one might just leave it 2.6" long and shorten the throat by 0.1" to maintain the .458 Win. Mag. "good ju-ju."



This would be for use in the Ruger No.1 with 1:18" twist, to be a little better with cast bullets,
still adequate twist for 500-grain TSX, and 400-grain HV.

Rip ...

Rip, thanks for the dimensions for the leade. How in the world is there no gas blowing by the bullet base before it's completely in the bore? (That was a lot of b's!)... Especially loaded to 3.34" or so.

By the way, does anyone have a solution for an M70 magazine floorplate opening and dumping cartridges on the ground? Mine just began doing this today on every shot for no apparent reason. Do I need a stronger spring? If so, where can I get one?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
There is some good ju-ju in the throat of a .458 Winchester Magnum.
Is there any other cartridge with a throat like it?
Sumbuddy who know please tell me if there is!

At the end of the case mouth chamfer in the chamber, the chamber throat starts with a diameter of 0.469" and trails off in a 0*29'30" leade,
trailing out to bore diameter of 0.450" way on out there.

Somehow (good ju-ju) this allows a .458 Win. Mag. to deliver either higher velocity or lower pressure or both, compared to the .458 Lott
when both are loaded to 3.6" COL or less,
as long as the bullet is long enough to work in the shorter brass, whatever the bullet weight.
And somehow (good ju-ju) excellent accuracy can be obtained with the long-leade-only throat of the .458 Win. Mag.

The .458 Lott might be able to beat the .458 Win. Mag. for top velocity with the 400-grain HV,
if both are limited to 3.6" rifle magazine boxes.
But that is only by an extra 0.1" of length for the lot.
The .458 Win. Mag. can only go to 3.495" COL with that bullet in a 3.6" box, due to insufficient bullet length to seat out any farther.
The .458 Lott can only go to 3.595" COL due to box length restriction.

In a 3.8" box, the .458 Win. Mag. can actually load the 500-grain TSX to longer COL than the .458 Lott, by securely crimping the bullet on the fifth and last cannelure on the bullet with the 2.5" brass.
With the 2.8" brass of the .458 Lott, and the crimping locations on the bullet, the .458 Lott must be loaded to shorter COL than the Win. Mag.
And if you do load both to same COL with no crimp,
the good ju-ju throat of the .458 Win. Mag. makes it champion.







I do not need to go any faster than 2500 fps with the 400-grain HV. That is enough of a good thing for me.
Even if the .458 Lott could go faster with the 400-grain HV bullet, I do not want to learn another trajectory.
2500 fps is already dialed in.

Rip ...

REAL nice group !

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Rip, thanks for the dimensions for the leade. How in the world is there no gas blowing by the bullet base before it's completely in the bore? (That was a lot of b's!)... Especially loaded to 3.34" or so.

By the way, does anyone have a solution for an M70 magazine floorplate opening and dumping cartridges on the ground? Mine just began doing this today on every shot for no apparent reason. Do I need a stronger spring? If so, where can I get one?

What cartridge does your Model 70 shoot.
If its a 458 or something similar. You might check the stock closely. Sometimes that happens when a heavy kicker breaks or splits its stock.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Rip, thanks for the dimensions for the leade. How in the world is there no gas blowing by the bullet base before it's completely in the bore? (That was a lot of b's!)... Especially loaded to 3.34" or so.

By the way, does anyone have a solution for an M70 magazine floorplate opening and dumping cartridges on the ground? Mine just began doing this today on every shot for no apparent reason. Do I need a stronger spring? If so, where can I get one?

What cartridge does your Model 70 shoot.
If its a 458 or something similar. You might check the stock closely. Sometimes that happens when a heavy kicker breaks or splits its stock.

It's a New Haven Super Express .458 win mag. I hadn't thought to check the stock... Just did, and from the outside, it looks pristine. Haven't pulled out the action though, and I do need to get it bedded and reinforced. Was shooting some stiff 500 grain loads at the time, and the catch seems a bit too easy to depress, so I figured that might be the problem.

I haven't had it pop open while shooting, but as it sets in the safe every once in a while I'll open the door and notice that as it set there it had poped open. How that happened I have no idea. I suppose that after I did a routine cleaning I assembled it and didn't get it completely snapped shut.

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Rip, thanks for the dimensions for the leade. How in the world is there no gas blowing by the bullet base before it's completely in the bore? (That was a lot of b's!)... Especially loaded to 3.34" or so.

Obviously it works OK with the HUGE bore and small powder charges, no worries.
Think of the 500-grain TSX that is 1.650" long.
When it is seated to 3.340" maximum SAAMI COL,
there is still 0.810" of bullet shank length buried in the case.
That is more full-diameter bullet length coming out of the brass confinement
than the entire jump from case mouth to start of lands,
0.6725" SAAMI minimum jump from 2.5" maximum brass to start of lands in the long leade.
When you load them longCOL, there is effectively less jump and the rifling gets plugged sooner than later.
But it is a non-issue altogether.

By the way, does anyone have a solution for an M70 magazine floorplate opening and dumping cartridges on the ground? Mine just began doing this today on every shot for no apparent reason. Do I need a stronger spring? If so, where can I get one?

What cartridge does your Model 70 shoot.
If its a 458 or something similar. You might check the stock closely. Sometimes that happens when a heavy kicker breaks or splits its stock.

Good thought. Definitely need to check that.

It's a New Haven Super Express .458 win mag. I hadn't thought to check the stock... Just did, and from the outside, it looks pristine. Haven't pulled out the action though, and I do need to get it bedded and reinforced. Was shooting some stiff 500 grain loads at the time, and the catch seems a bit too easy to depress, so I figured that might be the problem.

If it is like my beloved Connecticut Classics, it has the two-piece bottom metal, floor plate hinged on the front piece,
trigger guard and latch comprising the rear piece, plus sheet metal box and three screws.
Bedding was hot glue around the recoil lugs and otherwise bare wood.
There should be a secondary recoil lug on the barrel. And of course two visible crossbolts, fore and aft of the magazine well.
Winchester learned on the earliest Pre-'64 Africans, early ones split stocks until they added the barrel lug and another through-bolt.

A stronger spring on the latch might do, but any change in the bedding, as possible with a splitting stock, might make the problem appear anew.
If the spacing becomes "not right" between that front and rear 2-piece bottom metal, the floor plate might start popping open.
You have to get them just right and keep them that way.
Good glass bedding with pillars will go a long way toward keeping it "right."
I once had a rifle that was too tight between the front and rear bottom metal after final bedding and reinforcement,
and I actually had to enlarge (by filing and polishing with a Dremel spud)
the groove that the latch button rides in to make it possible to close and open the floor plate at all.
I suppose it is possible that with a lot of wear that groove might enlarge too much and make it easier for the floor plate to pop open in recoil,
but that would be unlikely with normal use and lubrication.
Spacing too far apart between the front and rear two-piecer is an obvious culprit and easily fixed with better bedding.

I took a shortcut once to keeping a Whitworth Mark X .375 Wby shut in recoil.
That has a one-piece bottom metal with only two action screws,
until I added a spiffy, countersunk, stainless steel 8x40 floor plate screw:



Perfectly timed too.


Rip ...

BTW, bcelliott has the ideal candidate for a .458 Win. Mag. 3.6-Incher.
Just pop out the spacer at the rear of the box,
and shorten that fixed ejector, and VOILA!
Better than a .458 Lott 3.6-Incher anyday.

Rip ...

Same action lengths, same ejection port dimensions, same scope bases needing to be J-B Welded and 8x40-ed to the actions,
same sheet metal boxes needing reinforcement in the front.
Trigger guards are slightly different in shape (a little bigger hole for a gloved finger on the Alaskan?),
and the wood-to-metal fit is better on the Super Grade:




Rip ...

The only improvement to your latch securing device would be for it to be spray painted flat black.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
The only improvement to your latch securing device would be for it to be spray painted flat black.

I could do that!
Or maybe a matte-blued chrome-moly oval head screw?
No engraving please.
A cap screw for hex or Torx wrench?
A QD-QD lever adapted from a busted set of rings, tightened down and timed straight forward?
That will be tricky, but parts is parts.

Rip ...

The "Alder Queen," Alderella, is vacationing at the Gun Shop and Spa for Wayward Rifles.
I have requested that her barrel be left as long as possible from the 28.15"-long Shilen blank for chronographing before cutting and crowning.
Also fitting to the HS Precision stock, trigger job, and front of magazine reinforcement have been requested.
Then a 220 grit rub down on the feed ramp and rails also, a massage for The Queen.
Barrel hardware will go on after the final barrel length is established.

A second .30-06 trajectory-trainer load occurs to me now.
To match the 500-grainers at 2200 fps with BC of about 0.300:
220-grain RNSP/FMJ bullets at 2200 fps with BC of about 0.300.

It will be interesting to see POI difference of .458 Win. Mag. 500-grainer at 2200 fps versus POI of 400-grainer at 2500 fps,
compared to POI of .30-06 SPRG 220-grainer at 2200 fps versus 180-grainer at 2500 fps.

Two rifles, both Ruger M77 Mark IIs, two Nikon SlugHunter scopes in Ruger rings.
22" barrel on the .30-06.

Final barrel length on the .458 Win. Mag. is yet to be determined.
I suspect the Shilen grooves are tighter than the CZ grooves,
and the SAAMI-minimum throat on the Alder Queen will be tighter.
The "regulation" load is aimed at 2500 fps with 400-grain HV COL of about 3.450".
Barrel length: It depends.

The 500-grain .458 Win. Mag. loads at 2200 fps are shortCOL to function through the magazine box. Two in the bottom of the box.
One longCOL HV in the chamber and the second on the top of the box, bolt closed with tip sitting on the feed ramp.
Like carrying around two double rifles, a light and a heavy. Two shots of HV, two shots of FN solid.
450-grain FN solids in the bottom of the magazine at 3.340" COL might just be better though ...

This is throttling back the .30-06 for trajectory-trainer purposes.
If we let'er rip, +2450 fps with 220-grainer and +2750 fps with 180-grainer would be fair dinkum hunting loads for a 22"-barreled .30-06.
That would require different trajectories than the .458 Win. Mag.,
a little flatter shooting, but not much.

Rip ...

It is plumb simple.
If you can load a .458 Win. Mag. with any bullet to the same COL as the .458 Lott load with that bullet,
then the .458 Win. Mag. can take more powder and produce a higher MV at same pressure as the Lott.

The .458 Win. Mag. will be champ with any bullets heavy and long enough for the required longCOL loading.
The .458 Lott will be champ only with the lighter and shorter bullets.
But the .458 Win. mag. can go plenty fast with those light and short bullets, plenty accurate too, with less than 3.4" COL on some of them,
like the 300-gr TTSX.

The .458 Lott is dead.
Long live The King!
The King is going to get stuffed into The Queen.

Queen Alderella will start off with 500-grain Hornady RNSP at COL of 3.305" in Winchester brass with F215 primer.
Handloading will work up to 72.0 grains of AA-2230 which is supposed to give 2159 fps from a 24" barrel at 53,808 PSI,
according to the Western Powders Handloading Guide Ed. 1 (2017).
There is no powder compression with that load.
I wonder how fast a 28" Shilen barrel would make that load go?

Rip ...

Alderella is a good name for a 24" barreled 458.
Now if you were in spruce and hemlock regen a 16-20" barrel would be preferred. Nearly 0 visibility at times. And point blank distances.
But, that's perhaps a speciality situation.
Adlers are nice and open brush.