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Egad! Less than 20 inches of barrel on a .458 Win. Mag! That would be like female circumcision! Genital mutilation! The opposite of gilding the lilly! Wipes the lipstick off the pig! Makes a sow's ear out of a silk purse! I must admit that besides Finn Aagaard my rifle tendencies were probably most influenced by Ross Seyfried who only became a "blowhard" IMHO after he came out of the closet as a .458 Win. Mag. hater. Possibly a personality change of early dementia? In his December 1990 G&A article "A Professional's Rifle" he wrote this: "Barrel length also works into the formula. I personally do not favor very short barrels. A 24-inch barrel, possibly an extreme minimum of 22 inches,is right for me. I don't find that a shorter barrel helps much in the brush and it can again make the front of the rifle difficult to 'feel.' Many of the early British and European sporters had long, slender 26 to 30-inch barrels. While they may have carried barrel length to an extreme, in open country they are absolute delights to shoot." I concur. Heck, Dan'l Boone's rifle "Tick Licker" and Davy Crockett's "Ol' Betsy" had barrels about 40 inches long. And they made do in southern vegetation much thicker than any northern spruce thicket. Cane breaks and blackberry thickets, etc. My heroes!  Ross Seyfried's comment about "feel" of the front of the rifle refers to balance, discussed on the page previous to the above quote. Quote: "A major aspect of a shootable rifle is its balance. If the arm is too light on the barrel end it becomes 'invisible' to your muscles. You cannot tell where the rifle is pointed. A barrel-heavy rifle is dull and slow to respond to your commands. Adding a very heavy barrel to a rifle as an attempt to reduce felt recoil can backfire. These ill-balanced arms arms often seem to slap me harder under recoil while feeling clubby, where a rifle weighing a pound less but perfectly balanced is quick to point and doesn't seem to wallow in its own recoil. A rifle that is balanced nicely should have its center of gravity near the front guard screw (sic, he shows a picture of himself balancing a Rigby on one finger, on the front action screw, captioned: 'The author's classic Rigby rifle balances perfectly -- at a point just ahead of the magazine well.'). If you need more weight to combat recoil, be sure to add it both fore and aft, maintaining the balance. A mixture of #9 lead shot and epoxy makes perfect ballast." Ross in his prime sure had a way with words. Muscles could both see and feel.  Rip ... | |||
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ALF,  It was a a re-cap of what has been said in the earlier pages of the thread, for a doubting Thomas.  You still avoid acknowledgement of the good ju-ju of the throat. Accidental genius by Winchester engineers? Alien technology from a UFO? ALF: Alien Life Form. That's it! Alf invented the .458 Win. Mag., and is just playing ignorant. You remain blissfully ignorant by choice, eh? Still no other throat like it known to man? Thanks for the reply. Rip ... | |||
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Again , kind of a specialty situation . When the first time a problem can be seen is 4 rifle lengths away, long barrels don't help. Lots of snort in a relatively precise area is what's needed. At least that has been my experience. For a hunting rifle, a bit of muzzle hang is nice. A friend's Remington 700 Custom Shop 416 has just the right amount of muzzle hang to make accurate offhand shooting relatively easy. To the point that I've watched him center punch clay pigeons at 200 meters off hand. But then I've done some good shooting with the Spruce King from time to time. But the most important shooting was done at such close range that sights of any kind weren't all that important. But, they weren't a hindrance either. The other thing that helps mitigate recoil is a good noisey muzzle brake. Keeps the muzzle down and blows the rain and sweat drops off the glasses all at the same time. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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And from Alf's ".416 Ruger Snake Oil" thread:
Thanks for the reply Alf, supplemented by the other thread. You totally fail at addressing the throat of the .458 Winchester Magnum. I was just kidding about you inventing it back in 1956. You were still in diapers then, weren't you? You seem to need education on this. Do you not understand how I have not had any pressure signs when loading the 500-grain TSX with 83.0 grains of AA-2230 at 3.780" COL for 2342 fps MV in a 24-7/8"-long CZ .458 barrel, chambered for .458 Win. Mag? Yep, plus-6000-ft-lbs., and not bad accuracy, but it is a bugholer if you find the accuracy node for your rifle. Mine was at 2250 fps. Do you know nothing about the effects of throat on internal ballistics? Let us stick to pressure effects first of all, and worry about accuracy issues later. I am serious. Here is the Western Powders Handloading Guide Edition 1 (2017) data on the .458 Lott versus the .458 Win!Mag! Read it and think about your selective ignorance:   No compressed powder with any of the loads here, and the AA-2230 load with 500-grainer is limited to 3.305" COL in the .458 Win. Mag. To get any significant advantage, the .458 Lott has to go longer in COL and step up to low-60K-PSI, instead of the low-50K-PSI of the shortCOL .458 Win. Mag. . . .  Rip ... | |||
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Hot Lott, WinnieMag Winnebago. Me thinks you're discussing the 308 vs 30-06 at times. Now what could a 308 do with a long leade? What could a 30-06 do with a long leade? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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CTF, Very interesting that you mention clay pigeons at 200 yards with an M700 .416 Rem. Mag. Here is Ross Seyfried, in a picture from the article quoted above, busting a double in sporting clays with his M700 .416 Rem. Mag. "Professional Rifle."  It is a rework of a factory barreled action, 24" barrel. He had about a pound turned off the barrel, and about a pound taken off by restocking with a Brown Precision. It must be about 7.5 pounds after addition of Bondo to raise the comb to where he felt best with irons and scope. Rip ... | |||
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Mighty lame, but about as good as can be expected from the anti-four-five-eight lunatics. Thanks for the reply. We await Alf's detractions from the throat of the .458 Win. Mag. Rip ... | |||
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Bingo! Page 45. I have a file of Ross's writings dating back to June 1986. I have been reviewing them and finding startling signs of incipient dementia developing early in his career as a gunwriter. These are his disparaging remarks about the .458 Win. Mag. occuring prior to his meltdown in January 2004 when he wrote "In Defiance of the .458 Winchester." I trained as a psychiatrist for a year and a half of that residency, until I noted that I scored better on the "In-Service Training Examination" than even the fourth-year residents (scores were posted by ID number and I scanned the entire list to see how I stacked up), and noting that one child psychiatry professor had hung himself, and a 4th-year chief resident overdosed on Elavil while I was there, I figured I knew all there was to be learned there about "psychiatry," and so moved on to another medical specialty. So, I feel well equipped to analyze Ross's slip from a grasp on reality. Documenting it will provide many more replies to this thread. Onward to page 304 and beyond. I will not be building a .458 Win. Mag. based on a factory-barreled M700, but a 7.0-pound Winchester M70 3.6"-Boxer is an interesting proposition: No.4 sporter and Brown Pounder. My face is fat enough that I will not have to put Bondo on the comb. That will save some weight. Rip ... | |||
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G&A October 1999 "Common or Custom?"  | |||
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Rifle 185, September-October 1999: "A Professional's Rifle"  | |||
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So does dementia work in reverse?
For my adult hunting life, mostly Africa-based, I have never understood the place for a 308 Winnie. The -06 had 30-cal covered, and the 300's were around to blow up lightweight cup and core bullets. Both could do a job with 180's and 200's. And now I'm thinking of getting a Kimber Hunter 308 for the grandkids. Go figure!  +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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416 Tanzan, Hmm, I see, have a lie-down on the office sofa there and tell me about your concerns regarding "reverse dementia." Did your mother love the .308 WCF? I had a Kimber Montana .308 WCF. It had a 1:12" twist barrel, shot OK with 150-grain bullets, but nothing heavier. Maybe they have learned to use a faster twist on the Hunter? Now, look at my pocket watch swinging like a pendulum before you ... you are getting drowsy ... Rip ... | |||
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It's morning, here. And yes, the Kimber Hunter now uses a 10" twist for all the good and new bullets. But for grandkids I'll probably have light loads of 130gnTTSX at about 2600-2800fps and then something heavier and more robust for adult hunters. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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The Descent of Ross Seyfried into Defiance of the .458 Winchester This chronicle begins with a bit of irony. In GUNS & AMMO/JUNE 1986 Ross Seyfried "wrote large" about the 1967 wildcat by Elmer Keith and R.W. (Bob) Thomson. Article title: KING of the LONG-RANGE MAGNUMS .338-378 KT The blurb in large type below the title: This mighty wildcat shoots flatter than a .270 ... with more wallop than a .458!" And the first paragraph of the article begins like a joke about two guys and a unicorn walking into a bar: "If someone walked up to you and said they had a rifle with the same muzzle energy as the .458 Winchester, that would hit with more 'punch' than a .375 H&H and had the same trajectory as a 7mm Remington Magnum at 600 yards, your reply of, 'I doubt it,' wouldn't be unexpected." So which is it, "more wallop than a .458," or "the same muzzle energy as the .458 Winchester," hmm? This is a slightly mixed message. Does it signify an early ambivalence? So we see that early in his writing career Ross Seyfried might have seen the .458 Winchester Magnum as a powerful cartridge, a standard of power by which to evaluate other cartridges. Or was this a subtle disparagement of the .458 Winchester Magnum's trajectory? Might this signify the nascent love-hate relationship that eventually blossomed into full-blown defiance?  Rip ... | |||
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Dude, that was one of my favorite articles. Dreamed of building one, got a 416 Rigby instead. Bouya. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Made it to 45, now the march to 50!! | |||
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So , I'm waiting to hear back from NightForce as to whether the NX8 will stand up to the 458. It has 3.75" of eye relief. And a nice short length from the power ring to the back end of the eye piece. Full mil/mil or moa/moa reticle and turrets. And ! It only weighs 17 oz . This may be an expensive discovery for me. 1 for the Spruce King . 1 for the 375 Ruger Guide Gun and 1 for the Kimber 338. Tho most of the time I won't need to be ranging with the reticle. It happens often enough that I don't want to be without that ability. Would be nice to have the identical reticle as the SWFA 1-4×24 SS Classic . Course, if that SWFA had 4" of constant eye relief I wouldn't be having this trouble. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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RIP, You wouldn't mind posting the entire G&A article of Ross's .416 would you? For "book review" purposes of course.  Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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CTF: from another thread: The Nikon Inline 3-9, parallax at 100yards, and the Nikon Slughunter 3-9, parallax at 75yards, are the toughest scopes I know. Set them at "3" in the forest, and crank up to "9" if you need a 300 yard shot. Eye-relief throughout both scopes is 5 inches. If you want an illuminated reticle, you will need to go to the Nikon 24mm scopes. A little heavier and bulkier, but good for a bright dot. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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16, 17 oz isn't really bulky. And it has 4" of eye relief. https://swfa.com/nikon-1-4x24-...mm-riflescope-1.html It has a nice reticle also. If it can stand up to the recoil. It would make a good spare scope at least. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Rip, Do you really think your post is valid, most of us that have hunted a lot, HAVE CHANGED OUR MIND, Is that not allowed anymore...Im sure like Ross, you have done a few turn arounds in opinions concerning hunting and guns, I sure have and for instance Ive changed my mind as to hunting style, scopes, calibers, Ive changed and contradicted myself on guns in general, I will continue to do so, I have that right..We all do..If you knew Ross, you would realize what a informed hunter and rifleman he really is.. I would also suggest you read Phil Shomakers and Finn Aaggards script, much the same as Ross seyfrieds, at some point the realized what was best for the pro guide, and pretty made little difference to either of the 3..A glass or Bondo stock that shoots good is all that's actually needed IMO, all three have such rifles..Maybe your the one that needs a shrink, I'll be glad to share him with you!!  Oh btw, owning one .308 makes not an expert on the caliber, that applies to any caliber, I have owned perhaps two dozen over the years, and excuse me but I can't tell any difference in killing and animal with a 308 than with a 30-06, which I wouldn't be without btw..Both are excellent..I separate the two by what I intend to hunt and how Im hunting..I use my 308 Savage 99 almost exclusively for hunting horseback, or hunting deer from a blind etc. the 06 when Im on foot or in rough country most of the time, but in each case that's my call, nobodys elses.. What I really think is your trying to keep this rediculas thread that no longer has Jack s--t to do with the .458 Win..Your present goal is to stir up the masses (and me!)..Its working so congrats on that, but I have to confess that you have turned to evil and treacherous means to accomplish your evil deed, to be the administrator of the longest running thread for less than intelligent conversation, shame on you, I know you know better!! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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416Tanzan, You are a scholar and a gentleman, and a riflecrank of highest order. Please let us know if you dig up anything on Ross Seyfried and the .458 Winchester Magnum. Thanks for the reply. The new goal of this thread is to make it to page #458. Rip ... | |||
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Ray B, Thanks for noticing. Onward to page 458. Rip ... | |||
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Cougarz, Too much of a jackalopement right now! Show a little respect for the .458 Winchester Magnum, please. Ross did two articles about his general thoughts on "A Professional's Rifle" that I am aware of: Dec. 1990 G&A, and Sep-Oct 1999 Rifle #185. The Remington M700 .416 Rem. Mag. you mention is not the primary subject of either article. I cannot even get a weight of that rifle so far, but for "almost 2 pounds lighter than the original factory rifle." He does speak in another article of firing a 7.5-pound .416. I assume that is the iron-sighted, possibly loaded with 4 rounds, weight of the M700 rifle. I am not going to further dignify a Remington M700 .416 Remington here. Just another sign of poor judgement on Ross's part, like his opinion of the .458 Winchester Magnum. You will see that he would go to great lengths (pun intended) to longCOL load a .416 Taylor, yet he poo-poo-ed the Mighty .458 Winchester Magnum.  Rip ... | |||
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 Is that a HS Precision stock? Do you recall the pattern description and/or model #? Thanks. Bro' Dart I have a long neck, and high cheek bones. I use a lot of bondo making Monte Carlos on butt stocks.  | |||
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Atkinson, Thanks for the reply. I can work with about anybody in furthering The Mission, whether they get it or not. Here goes:
Thanks, Atkinson. Rip ... | |||
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https://www.hsprecision.com/shop2/rifle-stocks/ruger/ Ruger Rifle Stocks Our Ruger Rifle stocks are built one at a time from the highest quality raw material. We start by CNC machining the aluminum bedding block. Every stock we produce will have an aluminum bedding block that is machined specifically to the dimensions of the barreled action it will be used with. The aluminum bedding block is then placed into a mold. Both sides of the mold are hand laminated with Kevlar, fiberglass, and carbon fiber. We use an abundant amount of these material for added strength and durability. Next we inject the mold with a proprietary mixture of a dense polyurethane foam material. This will give us the general shape and design of the stock. We spend the rest of the time hand finishing the Ruger stock to ensure that it is perfect and ready for your needs. We're currently working on bringing you a new Ruger M77 stock. Tentative release in the Fall of 2018 Rip ... | |||
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Before resuming psychoanalysis of Ross Seyfried's "Defiance of the .458 Winchester," I stopped by the local emporium and found that one of the old "long-tailed" 577/450 Martini-Henry rifles had appeared on the used-gun rack. Except for the buttstock being loose, it seems to be in working order. Hold my horses! There is the answer for the Ruger No.1. A 577/450 MH throated like a .458 Win. Mag. on a Ruger No.1 might work out. That is the biggest rim anyone seems to be able to do on a Ruger No.1, i.e., like 577 NE? The 577/.458 Winchester-Martini: I'll put that in my pipe and smoke it. Rip ... | |||
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The Descent of Ross Seyfried into Defiance of the .458 Winchester Part 2: GUNS & AMMO/MARCH 1987 THE "INSIDE" STORY ... BIG GAME BULLETS By Ross Seyfried Near the beginning: Page 43: "The first big game bullets were chipped flint, tied to the end of a spear or arrow shaft." Big Game bullets evolved. Ross said this about monometal copper and bronze solids: Page 44: "Because they are made of a material that is less dense than lead, these bullets are longer for any given weight than a solid with a lead core. There are times when this extra bullet length can cause problems. The .458 Winchester, with its all-too-small case capacity, is one of them. (emphasis added by me) Barnes makes a lighter .458 bullet that works well, and there are the Trophy Bonded solids that still use a lead core and are the same length as conventional bullets." So what does Ross do with the .416 Taylor, similarly limited in case capacity? He chose it for an earlier season as a PH in Africa, where it performed admirably, even though he was using it in a Blaser rifle,  prior to his use of the M700 .416 Rem. Mag. Did he actually load it like shown on page 45? Behold the .416 Taylor LongCOL:  BC = Before Condemnation, year 2003 and prior. AD = After Defiance, year 2004 and subsequent. These are the eras to be used in reference to the writings of Ross Seyfried. I have independently arrived at the 3.540" COL as the maximum COL that will allow me to eject .458 Win. Mag. unfired ammo from the chamber of a Ruger M77 Mark II, with no modifications to the action. I now wonder if Ross Seyfried is to blame for me ever venturing down the LongCOL road. The human mind is a funny thing ... (self-psychoanalysis) The picture of the .416 Taylor cartridge was just popped into the article with no other reference to it nor discussion of the .416 Taylor in the article. No mention of LongCOL loading of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Have you noticed that even in the BC era, Ross refused to call it the ".458 Winchester Magnum." He always clipped off the "Magnum" part. To him it is not a magnum. It was just the ".458 Winchester."  Rip ... | |||
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Not a bad call, though. Over 40 calibers need a little extra capacity to push all that weight accumulating at "volume-cubed" rates. Just to be normal. Just to have a trajectory worth hunting with. In .458" I would call the Weatherby, Rigby and Dakota "magnums." In .416" only the Rigby and Weatherby are worthy of 'magnum,' if loaded to use their capacity. Yes, in relation to 30-cal, everything over-40 might be "magnum," but case capacities in the 90-100 grain range are just ho-hum, plain jane. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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416Tanzan, Thank you for your further belittling of the .458 Winchester Magnum aka .458 Winchester. Rip ... | |||
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The Descent of Ross Seyfried into Defiance of the .458 Winchester Part 3: 2000 BC: Disdain for the .458 Winchester Magnum had been festering for decades when Ross Seyfried wrote the following: Handloader 204, April-May 2000 Reloading the .416 "Getting the best from the heavy hitters!" By Ross Seyfried "Somewhere around 1983 ... with the help of Chet Brown, my Blaser Ultimate became a .416 Taylor. It held three rounds, was a takedown, had a single set trigger, was non-rusting, carried a Zeiss scope in quick detachable mounts, shot 1-1/2-inch groups (with four different bullets), weighed in at 7-3/4 pounds with its Kevlar stock and kicked like a mule. But it was magic because this diminutive package delivered Rigby horsepower. Making cartridges was as simple as necking down the essentially useless .458 Winchester brass and adding W-748 Ball powder ..."  Apparently the Blaser Ultimate could handle a COL longer than 3.340" and Ross's .416 Taylor was throated long enough to allow it. Just guessing, I know nothing about Blasers. I guess it never occurred to him to LongCOL load the .458 Winchester Magnum. No wonder Ross quickly replaced the Blaser .416 Taylor with a Remington M700 .416 Remington. A Remington M700 sure beats a Blaser. Rip ... | |||
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The 458 WM is the 308 of the 45 calibers. That is actually praise, at least in many people's eyes, and I'm planning to get my first 308 when I can work out the logistics. A comparison with the 308 neither belittles nor magnifies the cartridge, but lets it stand on its own merits. I don't think of a 416 Ruger as a magnum, either. Hey, maybe it's not, since it doesn't wear a belt?  +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Well, I was just pulling your string to start with, I certainly enjoyed your well thought out reply it was elegant and well versed, a bit wordy, but allow me to think about it for awhile! Maybe you will turn me into a dyed in the wool 458 lover..Ive been on the brink for some time now!!  BTW, PHil is a good friend of mine besides being my favorite gun scribe, Finn was also a good friend. Both are/were .458 Win. fans. But their rifles were not fancy and they had nothing against Bondo, glass, or rawhide for that matter, nor do I, other than I use my Glass, bondo and rawhide on wood! Plastic sucks!  To be continued in 10 days, a hunt starts Sat. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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As I say, just call it the 450 Rimless Nitro Express and leave it at that...Satisfies everyone...well, me at least... | |||
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Seyfried would have been miles ahead to just piss on the Blaser rifle in general and forget about dissing the 458! Those rifle abominations are truly hideous! Just helping out the cause RIPster!! | |||
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That hurts, but it is true. | |||
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I wonder how long the Zeiss scope held up ? Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Nowadays the .458 Win. Mag. (with standard SAAMI throating) is fully the equal of the .458 Lott (of current standard SAAMI throating) if both are limited to 3.6" box length. In the beginnings of the .458 Lott it was specified to have the identical throating as the .458 Win. Mag. It could do marvelous things then. Now with the latest SAAMI spec on the .458 Lott throat, short-throated, it sure ain't no "Magnum," not even by name only, unlike the .458 Win. Mag. Rip ... | |||
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What a cliffhanger!  Can't wait for the next episode! Rip ... | |||
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then this suddenly becomes the best thing since David converted his slingshot to a 38 special.