No wonder I'm so tired !!

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Hell yeah man! That's an ad.
Speaks directly to the person who would buy that rifle. Good stuff!
Got any with David Ommanney?

Those ads must have worked on Peter Hathaway Capstick, really stirred his imagination.
And then he stirred a bunch more of us than Winchester alone could ever have done.

$310 in 1963, about $2500 now?
The African has outpaced inflation!

Current Blue Book on a Pre-'64 African:

Winchester Model 70 Super Grade African
100%: $8,000
98%: $7,500
95%: $7,500
90%: $6,500
80%: $5,500
70%: $4,500
60%: $4,000

1226 mfg. 1956-1963

Normal attrition and collectors owning more than one contribute to extreme rarity.
Retains considerable "shooter" value in lesser external conditions.
Watch for cracked and/or repaired stocks.

Then came the sales blitz in 1964.
The ads worked on Dirty Harry, our man in Hollywood.









https://www.africahunting.com/...ssional-hunter.3619/



"My name (is) Katharine (Katie) and David Ommanney is my grandfather.
It is wonderful to see that he is still revered as one of the great white hunters of East Africa.

Monish,
Your initial post stating "He was one of the finest of PHs in Africa."
was very heart warming. He passed quietly in September of 2001
and he is mourned by those who survive him, friends and family, still to this day.
KOmmanney, Jul 6, 2012"



R.I.P. David Ommanney, in The Happy Hunting Ground now.


Rip
.

I have to thank all you guys for putting down in one thread both the history and what the .458WM is truly capable of instead of just falling back on the accepted dogma of the past.

I've never owned a 4-5-8 but have harbored the thought for some time. For a bigbore there are some good deals out there to be had mainly because so many have been made (comparatively speaking) by just about every manufacturer.

Keep up the good work, this has been most interesting.

quote:

I've never owned a 4-5-8

It's the trajectory thingy.
But to be fair, if new bullets make the .510" OK, I suppose there are some good .458" candidates.

Thanks!

These loads won the west:
.45-70 Government Rifle and Carbine
500-grainer at 1100 fps and 400-grainer at 1330 fps.
A 409-grainer at 1376 fps is fun.
So is a 485-grainer at 1342 fps.
Both seem to be about 1.4 MOA for three shots.
Both use 30.0 grains of AA-5744, F-215 primer,
and a 1.25" length of 0.5" diameter foam caulk-backer rod as filler.

Slower is minimally more accurate.
I am "plumping for" just about any 400 to 500-grain cast-lead-alloy bullet at 1100 to 1400 fps.
Somewhere beyond 1376 fps, there be dragons!
I am sure that beyond 1578 fps is dragon infested.











Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Wookie76,

$310 in 1963, up from $295 in 1956.

$2500 in 2016 dollars for a factory rifle.

Well, the 458 didn't come apart. Arrived late last week, and finally today strapped a scope down on it. Bore sighted and fired two jacketed bullet loads at 50 yds to adjust scope. Then fired two 3 shot groups. First group 405 gr FP RN cast of Clip on Wheel weights. Gas checked and Alox/Johnson's One Step floor wax 50/50. These three spread horizontally about 1 and 3/4 inches. Next the three powder coated plain base 515 gr RCBS BPS bullets of the same COWW, with 36 gr 5744. No filler or wad of any kind. The powder coat seems to protect the bottom. Clover leaf at 12 o'clock in the seven ring. I took a couple pics of the target and the rifle if someone could post them, I will email to you. Thanks. Les

quote:

Originally posted by Les Staley:
Well, the 458 didn't come apart. Arrived late last week, and finally today strapped a scope down on it. Bore sighted and fired two jacketed bullet loads at 50 yds to adjust scope. Then fired two 3 shot groups. First group 405 gr FP RN cast of Clip on Wheel weights. Gas checked and Alox/Johnson's One Step floor wax 50/50. These three spread horizontally about 1 and 3/4 inches. Next the three powder coated plain base 515 gr RCBS BPS bullets of the same COWW, with 36 gr 5744. No filler or wad of any kind. The powder coat seems to protect the bottom. Clover leaf at 12 o'clock in the seven ring. I took a couple pics of the target and the rifle if someone could post them, I will email to you. Thanks. Les

Les,

PM sent.
Powder coating ...

I might want to use the old .459"/500-grain Government Round Nose, plain base from a Lyman mould
with 30.0 grains of AA-5744. That might be 1330 fps MV.
That would be nice. Fun enough.
Might be a great bullet to try the powder coating on too.
I won't try to go any faster with my rifle unless I have a technology breakthrough,
like powder coating

or jacketed bullets!

Squirrel season is coming ... GOR
Rip
.

Rip, thanks for offering to post my pics. It was raining today, and didn't want to get the chrono out. Will get some velocities in the near future. I use the shake and bake method of powder coating, very easy and takes only a toaster oven from a thrift shop/garage sale, a non stick cookie sheet and a cool whip bowl with a lid. Easy Peasy. There are several tutorials over on Cast Bullets website.

Les,

Here they come.
I'll post the pictures and you can add the words if anymore are needed.
I get it from your description above.









OK,
I am sold on powder coating, two reasons:
1. Powder coating allows you to hang the lube grooves farther out in the throat,
with no need to protect the delicate lube from loss or dirt collecting.
2. The powder coating is not going to make a .459"-sized bullet smaller.


Rip
.

Thanks, Ron. I size after PCing. If you need to increase the diameter a little, PC again after sizing. This load is obviously closer to the throat than the 405 gr load. Definitely showing some promise. And, no signs of leading.

I have a Lee 450 .458 mold that I plan on trying some powder coat on one of these days. On the exposed grease grooves, the lube is not too fragile nor picks up dirt if a decent plan of use is followed. I use elastic cartridge holders and the lubed bullets ride covered until I load them. Carried that rifle many miles in the Ks prairie without a problem. I clean with marvel mystery oil after each shooting session and leave the bore with a touch of that in it. Hang upside down until next trip. Do the same on both cast rifles. Simple, easy, effective. Also I can load to magazine length this way.
Remember we all carried a pocket full of exposed lubed 22 shorts, longs, and long rifles for most of our growing up years. We just weren't as discriminating in those days.

Thanks RIP for posting the photos of the David Ommanney 1964 sales campaign by Winchester.

I remember, as a boy, going down to the basement of Armstrong's department store in Cedar Rapids, Iowa,and lusting over the model 12 shotguns and model 70 rifles in the rack. They also had the revolutionary Mk 5 shotshells with the plastic sleeve wrapped around the shot to prevent shot deformation and improve patterns, greatest thing since sliced bread.

Being stuck in the Midwest corn desert, these ads were a lightning bolt from the sky and were the start of a life-long affliction with hunting in Africa. The writings of John Buhmiller , especially "Elephants are Varmits", really set me off and sealed the deal.

I believe this ad campaign was a effort to assuage the howls of outrage that the 1964 changes to the M70 produced.

Thanks again.

quote:

Originally posted by Les Staley:
Thanks, Ron. I size after PCing. If you need to increase the diameter a little, PC again after sizing. This load is obviously closer to the throat than the 405 gr load. Definitely showing some promise. And, no signs of leading.

Les,

My pleasure, and to my benefit in learning about these "PC-ed" cast-bullet loads.
What is the best source for the powder coating supplies?

I just ordered Lee bullet-sizing dies, custom order, $38 per set, for .459" and .460" diameters.
I have only the Lyman .459" Lubrisizer right now.
The Lee sizers will be great for the PC bullets.

I have watched some Youtube videos on PC-ing cast bullets.
I did surmise that you would might size them before and after PC-ing, and certainly after PC-ing.

I am thinking that I would .459"-size before PC, and .460"-size after PC.
My Lyman 500-grain Government RN bullet is a prime candidate, ought to be close to yours.
I reckon Lyman #2 alloy, but I cannot decide on what color I want them to be.


Rip
.

Fury01,

I still have hundreds of the regular-lubed bullets to shoot at 1376 fps or thereabouts.
I find minimal leading in my Whitworth.
Something as simple as SHOOTER'S CHOICE LEAD REMOVER gets it right out.
20 strokes with a copper/bronze bristle brush, patch, look, and repeat if needed.
40 brush strokes max to remove all traces of lead, so far, for my rifle.
5-10 minutes and done. Clean as a whistle.
Love it.


Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by Head Trauma:
Thanks RIP for posting the photos of the David Ommanney 1964 sales campaign by Winchester ...
I believe this ad campaign was a effort to assuage the howls of outrage that the 1964 changes to the M70 produced.

No doubt.
And Dave Ommanney was up to the task.
Didn't he do Timex commercials on "The Wide World of Sports" also?
I think I remember that on TV.
They took a licking and kept on ticking,
just like Dave.
"The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat ..." (ski jump fail footage on TV accompanies announcer voice).

See Brian Herne's White Hunter:

http://www.ntz.info/gen/b00623.html

Herne, Brian White Hunters: The golden age of African Safaris, 1999
Page Number: 207
Extract Date: 1952

David Ommanney

Stan Lawrence-Brown had many fine professional hunters associated with his firm in Arusha, but perhaps the best all-around hunter was David Ommanney. Dave was born in Jalgaon, India, in 1931, the son of a British policeman in the Indian Colonial Civil Service who settled his family in Nanyuki, Kenya. As a schoolboy Dave had been befriended by the famous tiger hunter from India, Jim Corbett, then in retirement at the small town of Nyeri in the foothills of the Aberdare Mountains. Corbett's influence helped prompt Ommanney to become a white hunter.

"There were only three safari outfitting organizations operating in Nairobi at the beginning of the fifties," Dave recalled. "Safariland, Ker and Downey, and Lawrence-Brown and Lunan."

Dave started with a visit to Safariland. The manager, Wally King, was not encouraging. Dave made his way to Ker and Downey's office where he met Donald Ker. Ker took one look at Ommanney and said, "Ker and Downey would never employ anyone who wore shorts! - In 1952 Ommanney was hired by Lawrence-Brown and Lunan Safaris as a "stooge."

There was hardly any money, and Stan worked him to the bone. But Ommanney does not resent the hardships, the brutal training, and long hours. He stuck out his stooging job with teeth gritted, although perhaps 98 percent of would-be hunters with stars in their eyes dropped out. The trainee's backyard university was fixing cars, meeting and greeting clients, tracking animals, scouting on reccies, skinning game, or standing in line at some bureaucratic counter getting interminable permits. There was always a rush to get the next safari on the road and get a shady, scenic campsite located, cleared, tents pitched, kerosene refrigerator and lamps working before the white hunter bwanas and clients arrived half a day later expecting hot showers, hors d'oeuvres, and a five-course dinner on the table. Bored to distraction sorting and packing supplies, or being jumped on for some petty fault, being eternally broke, tired, sore, bug-bitten, and belittled was not everybody's cup of tea. In those days only men who really meant to make a full-time career out of hunting would put up with the hardships. The years that were required to qualify for an unrestricted professional hunter's license constituted a most serious business, and Ommanney winces at the recollection of it.

Extract ID: 3828


Rip
.

Rip, Harbor Freight red is the best coating powder you can walk in and buy. About $8 a jar. Takes a tablespoon of powder to coat around 100 bullets depending on bullet size. I use black Airsoft plastic BBs , 'bout half a cup in the bowl with the powder and bullets. Snap on the lid and shake rattle and roll for 45 seconds, place bullets base down on a cookie sheet, bake for 15 minutes @400degrees. Any plastic bowl with a snap on lid and a recycle code of "5" in a triangle or circle on the bottom. This setup makes pretty good static and dry coats the bullets pretty well.

Red is good.


Rip
.

"Red is good". I thought when I first loaded that bullet in 45/70 that it looked like lipstick (for a pig).

Would the red powder coating work on bullets like a Barnes TSX?

Just wondering how it would work compared to the spray on molycoating (CRC dry moly lube #3084)I am currently using.

Head Trauma, that's a good question. Worth a try to find out.

HT ; I used to moly spray , then moly tumble bullets Now I tumble jacketed and mono metal in hexagonal boron nitride. .
I don't know what the friction coefficient is for PC . or how it compares to HBN.
Does anyone know what the blue bullet coating Barnes used between X and TSX ???

CTF, What is this hexagonal boron nitride that you speak of? What caused you to change from spray moly?

Thanks

HBN is alot better bullet coating than moly. Clean bullets with acetone . tumble in HBN powder.
It sticks to the bullets better than molybdenum dysulfide.

Here is a very good thread on HBN.https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/hexagonal-boron-nitride.151457/

CTF, thank you for the link, very informative.

In the thread they recommend 3 grains of HBN per pound of bullets, what do you use? Where do you get your HBN? What do you use for tumbling media?

This article explaines my results using molycoated Barnes 300 TSX bullets in my 375 H&H. Uncoated bullets averaged 2552 fps, moly bullets, same load, 2424 fps.

Thanks again for the link, a wealth of information.

Link for HBN source and some info

https://www.bulletcoatings.com...17527&cat=249&page=1

I just put them in the 1/2 pint jars . Put 1/8th teaspoon of HBN powder on top of the bullets. Put the lids on . put one in a tumbler tub right side up . One up side down. . Turn it on for 1.5-2 hrs.
Empty them into a pair of cotton socks . Slinky them back and forth. Pour into another set of socks. Slinky them some more and pour them back into their respective boxes. . At 1/8th teaspoon per 50 , 375 bullets or per 75-100 6.5 bullets . It lasts a long time. And I haven't been shooting much lately.
The guy that set me up with HBN threw a couple oz in with the tumbler. Actually , it's a Harbor Freight dual drum rotary rock polisher.
It works great and is nice and quiet.

A riflecrank's dream come true, the "WinCzechster": She will be called "Chimera the WinCzechster."
She will be dedicated to jacketed bullets,
as her mate "Woodelle the Whitworth" has called dibs on cast-lead bullets.
Woodelle is looking forward to some red, powder-coated bullets, like lipstick on a pig.



The magician who created this chimera did something like this:
The CZ barrel threads were turned down to their minor diameter.
The Pre-'64 Winchester M70 barrel thread is 1.000"/16-tpi. This fits inside the CZ minor diameter.
About 0.050" of relief/face-off was required to get the CZ sights aligned/timed.
0.60" (or 9-1/2 threads) are engaged.
Sticking a 3/8" wooden dowel down the barrel to breech bolt face shows the crown of the barrel at 24-7/8" or very near 25" barrel.



The cross-slot bases are Warne Maxima.
8x40-ed and blue-Loctited by the maker,
not yet JB Welded by me.
I may want to cut off the overhang on the front base,
but for now I have the potential for a 3-Ring-Circus scope mounting, as is.



The scope rings are Leupold QRW low.
Any ocular bell bigger than on the Leupold 2.5x20mm "Ultralight" scope
will require a step up to medium height rings.



The forearm of the Classic Tupperware stock is filled with a piece of wood laid in, MarineTex epoxy over that, and there are three pieces of steel allthread.
It is not floppy.
I think it is going to be accurate.
I hope it is the barrel that had a CZ factory target showing 3 bullet holes in 0.75" at 100 meters.
The balance is a little muzzle heavy when the rifle is unloaded and the scope is "Quick-Detached."
Yet with all the forearm wood, epoxy and steel,
it is amazingly light: 8#2oz
Adding ammo and the little scope shifts the CG rearward a little,
and makes the rifle feel more lively and lighter than the 9#5oz field-ready weight.
Adding a 4-oz sling and a 4-oz slip-on butt pad will make her weigh 9#13oz
really, really field ready.





I have already been varmint hunting with Chimera, our first date!
On the way home from the Spa for Wayward Rifles, I stopped off at the happy hunting ground, hoping to surprise a groundhog.

The woodchuck did not show, so Chimera and I "chucked" three 465-grain A-Square Monolithic Solids
(the factory load that is supposed to do 2200 fps but does not)
at a paper target in the "pasture" set up 25 yards from us.
This was done in order to start getting an idea of where her barrel is pointing relative to her sights.
I had planned to see where she hit on the groundhog, but that was not to be.

The first two bullets were touching, just about 1/3" to the left, windage, might have just been the wind,
but elevation of POI was about 3" higher than point-of-aim at 25 yards.
I got excited and pulled the third bullet a little low:



That is my story and I'm sticking to it.
Of course Chimera might shoot lower at 25 yards with 400-grainers at +2400 fps.
I'll get a replacement front sight bead height figured out when I settle on her load.
Windage is drift-adjustable.


Rip
.

Ron ; that is a nice setup !! That is Really nice.
I think most Alaska hands would give your Chimera a big thumbs up. .
Honestly seriously impressed !!!

I know you got Lots and lots of fairly over the top rifles. But imho your WinCheczster doesn't need to take a back seat to any of them. !!

CTF,

Thanks. I got a new favorite rifle that is for sure, and she ain't no safe queen.
And born fully grown and ready to go!
Yes, might be a redneck girl, a pick'emup-truck rifle,
but she just screams "Grab me and use me!"
And I can't keep my eyes and hands off of her!
No kin, of course, this is Game of Rifles, not Game of Thrones!

Forgot to mention she feeds like a champ too.
Not picky! Easy to satisfy, low maintenance. Digests everything with gusto,
pointy bullets, round nose bullets, flat nose bullets,
Holds 3 cartridges with lots of room to spare in the box, and the 4th cartridge can be slipped in anyway you like,
off the top or dropped into the chamber
smooth and fine as a woman's inner thighs.

Her Tupperware butt seems to soak up the recoil too.
The softer the cushion, the better the pushin'.
She is a joy in the pounding department for sure.
And her trigger is extraordinary!
She goes off with the slightest touch.
I am in love!


Rip
.

Nice stuff.
You guys are going to have me looking for one of those 416 Ruger Alaskans sooner than anticipated.

Here's some fresh data. Shooting Pig Lipstick in the PE King, no adjustment of Leupold 4 power scope from the previous shooting, fired four shots across the Chrony at 100 yds. Four nice round holes, (no yaw apparent). 'Zactly 5" high from point of aim. Consistent with the trajectory chart I picked using 1500 fps for the velocity. (Lucky guess). Actual readings were 1538, 1535. These two were left over from the first five I loaded. 1564, and 1550 from the fresh batch. These I neck sized only after checking that all fired cases would chamber. This sighting gives me a 160 yd zero and -7.5" at 200 yds. Gotta try some 405 gr RNFP powder coated and gas checked next. Will also re-calculate the trajectory with 1550 as the velo. Should flatten it a little.

quote:

Originally posted by Les Staley:
Here's some fresh data. Shooting Pig Lipstick in the PE King, no adjustment of Leupold 4 power scope from the previous shooting, fired four shots across the Chrony at 100 yds. Four nice round holes, (no yaw apparent). 'Zactly 5" high from point of aim. Consistent with the trajectory chart I picked using 1500 fps for the velocity. (Lucky guess). Actual readings were 1538, 1535. These two were left over from the first five I loaded. 1564, and 1550 from the fresh batch. These I neck sized only after checking that all fired cases would chamber. This sighting gives me a 160 yd zero and -7.5" at 200 yds. Gotta try some 405 gr RNFP powder coated and gas checked next. Will also re-calculate the trajectory with 1550 as the velo. Should flatten it a little.

Les,

Your alloy is wheel weights, right?
BHN might vary from batch to batch?
That is usually a little softer than Lyman#2?
I have a bunch of Lyman#2 I want to use.
Maybe the harder alloys like linotype and Berry's Hard Cast (BHN 20) would be even better for grabbing the rifling after a jump?
More like jacketed bullet grabbiness?

I would also like to do away with the foam filler and try AA-5744 and air as you are doing with the powder-coated bullets.

I am waiting for the Lee sizers.
Hope to duplicate those powder-coated results,
with some red 500-grainers.
1550 fps with 500-grainers is fun enough.

Woodelle Whitworth shall ride again,
and eventually she might learn to shoot straight too, and teach her mates to do the same.


Rip
.

Three floor plates and a block of steel

trying to get 5 458 rounds down and one up the pipe

in the prototype for a

commercial hunters service rifle





floor plate in the foreground holds 4 down
floor plate in the background holds 5 down
it was carved out of the block of steel



the belly pan this is how it now looks on the gun



a two step button release will be added to assure the floor plate will not snap open dropping rounds out of the magazine at unexpected times

just one more feature

that sets the stopping rifle of the professional hunter

apart from the standard cosmetic classic safari rifle

next to show we will work up a commercial hunters

bulletproof trigger system for the 8.5 pound 458 win mag stopping rifle

in battery with 6 458 win mag 550 grain woodleigh hard nose bullets

moving forward at 2,150 feet per second THAT AL A BACK EM UP

you can have 4 down so slim belly look
or 5 down as shown --configured as a duty rifle for the PH- gameranger or national park wildlife control officer
or both after all it's just money
more money for both

early look at some of the work on the trigger system much more later

Nice work, Stradling. "I know what you're thinking, did he shoot five, or was it six? But being that this is a 458 Winchester Magnum, which used to be the most powerful gun........." What ever. Powerful enough for me! Ron, the piggy lipstick is water dropped wheel weight, straight clip on, no stick on WW added. Powder coating bakes them at 400 degrees for 15-20 minutes. I'm seating these bullets out to COL 3.230" and the front portion of the bullet before it starts to form the nose is right at 448-450 PCed, so it's acting like a bore rider. Don't know the hardness, but the 400 degree bake time could be softening the alloy a little.