Fear for democracy? 1776 versions of these rifles and men are the only reason we have a representative republic, including the mechanics of democracy, on this continent.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sambarman338:
The accuracy and image of all this stuff makes me fear for democracy

Absolutely no clue as to what that's supposed to mean.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
The accuracy and image of all this stuff makes me fear for democracy - but a version in 458 would be fine.

Just the fact that men have these and can use them well. Is one of the reasons we aren't over run.
The thing that sets free men apart from criminals and despots is we don't attack . We defend.

My fear is that with such accurate rifles, powerful calibres, 'smart' scopes and rangefinders, no president or prime minister is secure in the open any more. Some of them are no better than they should be, of course, but assassination rarely results in any social good and can sometimes have horrific results such as WWI.

Dirty Harry did counter-sniper night patrol work in San Francisco with this .458 WIN, pushfeed M70 African:



The work of $700 and a .30-06 can be done with the money to buy one box of ammo if you have a .458 WIN instead of a .30-06.

Nice try at a save of face there sambarman338.
edit:

Remember even the 460 Wby.Mag. can be reduced to .450 NE 3.25" Thin-Rim aka ".450 Rigby Special" ballistics
with a case about 2/3 full of Accurate-5744.
But it will not be a sixshooter, and will not likely be as accurate as a .458 WIN.

What does that have to do with sambarman338's foot in mouth?
Just changing the subject.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
My fear is that with such accurate rifles, powerful calibres, 'smart' scopes and rangefinders, no president or prime minister is secure in the open any more. Some of them are no better than they should be, of course, but assassination rarely results in any social good and can sometimes have horrific results such as WWI.

Did you go to some liberal college somewhere. This is Way up on the dumbest thing I've seen posted here! Wow.
Well, I don't know . So are we supposed to turn in all our guns and steak knives ect ect.
Maybe we should just use a lump of playdough on the front end of our rubber band guns.

Pretty much 100% of all assasinations are pulled off by some government of one form or other. They have no problem getting about any kind of weapon they want. And always will be able to.
To even contemplate any wording that restricts the God given rights of free peoples. Is just plain wrong!

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
My fear is that with such accurate rifles, powerful calibres, 'smart' scopes and rangefinders, no president or prime minister is secure in the open any more. Some of them are no better than they should be, of course, but assassination rarely results in any social good and can sometimes have horrific results such as WWI.

Did you go to some liberal college somewhere. This is Way up on the dumbest thing I've seen posted here! Wow.
Well, I don't know . So are we supposed to turn in all our guns and steak knives ect ect.
Maybe we should just a lump of playdough on the front end of our rubber band guns.

I thought it was probably the most bizarre thing I've seen on the forum as well. Beats most of Shootaway's earlier posts!

Actually, it's the type of comment that could result in a early morning visit by the Secret Service boys knocking on your door if made by a US citizen.

quote:

My fear is that with such accurate rifles, powerful calibres, 'smart' scopes and rangefinders, no president or prime minister is secure in the open any more. Some of them are no better than they should be, of course, but assassination rarely results in any social good and can sometimes have horrific results such as WWI.

Wait WHAT!!!

Note that sambarman338 is in Australia.
And this thread is supposed to be about the .458 WIN.
But this thread is actually about everything.
So let'er rip.
I just remembered that anything and everything subject-wise is good for THE MISSION.
Ring-a-ding-dong goes THE MISSION bell.

Rip ...

That came to mind but I didn't want to offend any of our fellow members that aren't from the U.S.

I never read anything Shootaway wrote that would even be a remote comparison to that post.

Sorry if I've touched a raw spot, guys. Though I thought Todd's point counter-intuitive, I guess you're saying some dangers should never be spoken of. We have an analogous one here that requires next to no technology ... say no more.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
My fear is that with such accurate rifles, powerful calibres, 'smart' scopes and rangefinders, no president or prime minister is secure in the open any more. Some of them are no better than they should be, of course, but assassination rarely results in any social good and can sometimes have horrific results such as WWI.

That bullshit does go hand in hand with many Sambar hunters.

"powerful calibres" it's a fucking 300 Winchester.

Actually with military issued rifles and issued ammo whether in 338 Lapua or 50 BMG, turn up to a real long range shoot and you would be better with a 22 pistol. Reason. Either way you will come last but the 22 pistol is easier to take to the firing line

Ban that rifle in the picture and you work your way down the list the to a 270 Sporter with 6X scope.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Sorry if I've touched a raw spot, guys. Though I thought Todd's point counter-intuitive, I guess you're saying some dangers should never be spoken of. We have an analogous one here that requires next to no technology ... say no more.

Your trying to establish some sort of record when in actuality you should shut the #@%€ up.
There is no danger. Only a bone headed progressive or liberal would think so.
There are more ways to end someone , anyone. Than using a firearm. A modern , accurate rifle is Much less deadly than a school bus or some virus or the electricity flowing thru your house wireing. Ect. ECT. ECT. Like a rock to the mellon.
Get a clue man !

Let's hope you're right, CTF.

You may be right, too, Mike. Did I hear they've banned rifles with assault-rifle-type pistol grips in Tassie? That seems absurd (esp. in regard to other gun law plans down there) and it certainly doesn't make a rifle any more deadly - but, as Johnnie Howard's excessive laws may have found, some maniacs want to be Rambo but can't do that without a weapon that looks the part.

Remember a society that seeks safety over liberty will have neither.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
My fear is that with such accurate rifles, powerful calibres, 'smart' scopes and rangefinders, no president or prime minister is secure in the open any more. Some of them are no better than they should be, of course, but assassination rarely results in any social good and can sometimes have horrific results such as WWI.

What a crock of shit. Apparently you are totally ignorant of the sophisticated technology that’s protects presidents and the like.

But leave it to you to come up with such ignorant shit as this.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Let's hope you're right, CTF.

You may be right, too, Mike.

I know I am fucking right.

WA is the worse. Calibre must meet need = animals available. So bigger stuff is out, even 338 Win. I did draft a letter a letter on the basis of getting a 460, 505, 500 J etc. on the basis of community safety. Magazine often 2 shots rarely more than 3 shots. Bullets used typically low BC. If yo decide to do a massacre do you a brake and hence take your ear muffs etc. and the weight of the ammo. If the rifle is stolen then the local bikie gang won't have cases of ammo, in fact they will have no ammo. It is with good reason that world military chooses for its small arms calibre things like the 378, 458 Lott, 460, 505 etc.

But the blokes were scared to do such a letter because of WA police system with guns. An important point was that although the number of blokes wanting 375 and up is small it would be a win on a technical argument basis.

338 Lapua is a problem in SA and getting that way in QLD. Although the bigger 338/378 is OK as is the 338 RUM and 300 Edge (necked a 300 RUM).

Anything Chey Tac is out and especially the 375 Chey Tac.

A lot of Sambar deer hunters can be a real fucking pain as was the Pacific chapter of SCI in 1996.

By the way the new record for a 5 shot group at 1000 yards is 1.05" and with a small case capacity 6mm. It swaps around between smaller 6mms and 300 WSM, although not standard chamber 300 WSM.

As I said it work its way down to a sporter in 270 with 6X scope.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
My fear is that with such accurate rifles, powerful calibres, 'smart' scopes and rangefinders, no president or prime minister is secure in the open any more. Some of them are no better than they should be, of course, but assassination rarely results in any social good and can sometimes have horrific results such as WWI.

That bullshit does go hand in hand with many Sambar hunters.

"powerful calibres" it's a fucking 300 Winchester.

Actually with military issued rifles and issued ammo whether in 338 Lapua or 50 BMG, turn up to a real long range shoot and you would be better with a 22 pistol. Reason. Either way you will come last but the 22 pistol is easier to take to the firing line

Ban that rifle in the picture and you work your way down the list the to a 270 Sporter with 6X scope.

Mike,

Our Sambar stalking friend obviously shoots a 338

Great work for THE MISSION, y'all.
Any topic or controversy welcome,
especially if it can be related to the .458 WIN.
Easy enough to ignore and move on if you like or don't like.
Just remember, we are recommending nothing to children to try at home without adult supervision.



Above DSS-2PP mount allows any scope you want on any rifle.
Thumb Gap (patent pending) facilitates two-fisted fast reloads.
Low-height rings for most scopes, medium-height rings for some with combined short mounting length and large bells. High rings would be required only for rare applications yet to be tried by Bubba Gunwerkes R&D.
We'll keep y'all informed if we find one.

Final production items will be precisely CNC-Machined to fit any bolt action rifle, and will have less J-B Weld showing due to closer tolerance.
Of course, pipsqueak chamberings of low recoil may be used without the J-B Weld,
relying on only the integral recoil stop and four 8x40 screws with blue LOCTITE.

Rip ...

Yes Mike, WA is not the frontier territory you'd expect but a kind of nanny state in regard to rifles. And yes, Blair, the 338 is my favorite but I do have a 270WSM, which shoots really flat and used to have a largish scope.

My rueful thought in regard to tactical rifles is that criminals are rarely the flawed geniuses TV portrays, but more often copycats of low intelligence, easily lead by dramatic icons and props.

But as Mike says, some of those rifles are incredibly accurate. Whoever managed to shoot a 1.05" group at 1000 yards must have had a good bit of luck, for all that, and a range with no wind.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

But as Mike says, some of those rifles are incredibly accurate. Whoever managed to shoot a 1.05" group at 1000 yards must have had a good bit of luck, for all that, and a range with no wind.

Best 10 shot group from memory is 2.4" but been plenty in that area. I think a bloke did a 20 inch 3 shot group at 4000 yards with a 375 Chey Tac.

With any sort of bench shooting the trick is to get shots of fast so under the same conditions. From memory, maybe 98% sure, that 1.05" group at 1000 yards was also on point of aim. In other words he would have actually hit 5 gold balls in a row.

50 BMG has never done as well and I guess for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there are nowhere near as many blokes do it with 50 BMG. The range of components/barrels is not there. Also, in general the weight of powder and bullet in the 50 BMG is heavier in relation to the gun so the gun moves back further while the bullet is in the barrel. Also is the action diameter. These big one on calibres from 378/416 Rigby based and the Chey Tacs are nor your normal 1.33 diameter receiver, much bigger. A 50 BMG would probably need a receiver 3" or more to be equal. Quite a lot of the 50s are altered but to be a bit shorter but parallel side but with same capacity.

There is a trade off. The bigger the bore size the higher the SD you can use (smaller bore lets you use a lower SD) and of course with same form factor the higher SD bullet has higher BC. So if custom bullets were made you could make higher BC bullets in .458 than say .308. However, muzzle velocity would be very low with a 458 Winchester and so bullet going under speed of sound would not be as far out. Also trajectory would be much higher so more of an issue for the bullet to stay point on as it reaches the highest point.

There you go RIP, I sneaked the 458 Winchester into the post

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
A longer range shot might need to be taken. But the .458 350gr TSX has a rather dismal ballistic coefficient (0.278) so the bullet runs out of steam real fast. Expect to do a bit of tracking.

Compared to my .416 Ruger loaded with the 340gr V15 (0.78 b.c.). Energy at 700 yards is still 3000+ ft-lbs.

Can’t knock a 416, can only praise them. Harry Sellby loved the 416.

quote:

Compared to my .416 Ruger loaded with the 340gr V15 (0.78 b.c.). Energy at 700 yards is still 3000+ ft-lbs.

416:

What kind of accuracy are you getting with that bullet/load?

I ask because I've had some CEB do excellent on accuracy while others have been problematic in building accurate loads. I'm not sure why, and have not had sufficient opportunity to follow up on many options, especially in smaller calibers (.243, .277, .338).

That is a spiffy .416, useful bullet, many applications possible.
Bullet is .416/340-gr MTH, length 1.793":



CEB needs to make a similar, proper MTH single-feed bullet for the .458 WIN.
As yet there is none.

The consolation is that the GSC .458/400-gr HV allows magazine feeding and +2500 fps:



And the Lehigh Defense .458/465-grainer (that is designed for subsonic velocity in a 1:10" twist)
could be used for supersonic loads in a 1:14 twist,
stable there at 1600 fps and higher.



And the 450-grain TSX with MV = 2469 fps, BC = 0.369, Muzzle Energy = 6091 ft-lbs:
It still has 3026 ft-lbs at 325 yards.



Rip ...

This scope fits the rifle so well that it is spooky! LOW RINGS:



"The Weatherby Skull" is an award presented by Bubba Gunwerkes.
It is a sign of approval for proper scope placement.
Scope is forward enough on rifle to avoid Weatherby EyeBrow.

Rip ...

The scope's ocular bell abuts the rear side of the rear ring as a recoil stop,
preventing forward movement of scope in recoil.
At the same time, the front side of the front ring abuts the objective bell and it is tight!
With about zero room to spare, this aspect of fit is primarily aesthetic.

There is plenty of room between the power-change ring and the rear base, see enlarged view of that area below.

Rip ...

If it's dangerous game being shot. I prefer to hit it with 4,000 ft lbs whenever possible ! Just seems to have more affect on them from what I've seen.
But over 3k does get a lot of work done.
That is a good looking round ! And 700 yards with nearly 2000 fps should be sufficient to cause expansion.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Compare the Nikon P3 3-9x40 Shotgun scope (requires 1-Inch Medium rings) to the Nightforce SHV 3-10x42 (requires 30mm Low rings):







Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
No 350 to 450gr Match/Tactical/Hunting VLD bullet in .458 because the 1:14 twist common to the .458 WM is too slow for proper stability.
Actually, the 1:14" twist common to both .458-caliber and .416-caliber barrels is relatively faster for a .458-caliber than for a .416-caliber.
The reason the .416-caliber MTH bullets are stocked by CEB is largely due to the existence of the .416 Barrett.
Similar bullets could be made for the .458 WIN, 460 Wby, .458 Steyr, etc., with bullets longer than that .416/V15.
Done in .458 cal they could be easily stabilized by 1:14" twist at modest, supersonic velocities.
But apparently it will have to be be a custom order,
since the .458-caliber is so uncommon at the "King Of Two Mile" shoot-offs.
It might be like the .395-caliber, .423-caliber, and .500-caliber batches that we members here have occasionally gotten CEB to produce.
I still have a life-time supply of the .395-caliber bullets from CEB, GSC, and S&H.

Very good accuracy with the 340gr MTH V15 bullet in my .416 Ruger Alaskan. Group shown is at 100 meters off the bench.

Should work pretty good on heavy game. On the roster for this Spring -

https://cuttingedgebullets.com...g-edge-bullet-design

Excellent shooting there with the .416 Ruger.

If I wanted to specialize with a .458 WIN for a run at King of Two Mile, I would consider a faster-twist barrel and needle-nosed bullet.

Rip ...

If anyone needs to know how to take pictures of rifles or ammo or how to post pictures then this thread has the people who can help

Yes indeed.
But if you are using a .416/340-grainer,
then I will make do with about 400 to 450-grainer for a 0.8 BC.
I am dreaming of a custom MTH from CEB, a .458-cal./412-grain copper monometal of 1.8" length.

The Lehigh Defense .458/465-grain Subsonic Controlled Fracturing bullet is only 1.800" in length
and has a BC of 0.792 at 750-1200 fps.
I am wondering what that BC becomes at 2400 fps MV?
1:17.5" will stabilize it at 2400 fps.

The standard 1:14" will work well with .458-cal bullets no more than 1.8" long.

But as you say, for about 2.5"-long .458-cal bullets:
Try this 582 grains of Lehigh Bullets .458-caliber brass which gets to BC = 1.105 !!!
Better BC than Hornady's .510/750-gr A-Max !!!



I was figuring that 1:10" twist would be best to try at 2150 fps MV,
just for paper punching out to 1000 yards with the .458 WIN.

I do have a .458 B&M with 1:10" Twist Pac-Nor barrel only 19.75" long.
What a waste of a good barrel!
I guess I need a 1:10" barrel on a .458 WIN for use of 2.5"-long bullets.
Now that is funny, a bullet as long as the brass case.
Also, a .458 B&M shooting bullets longer than the brass case:

Rip ...

4sixteen,

Thanks for support of THE MISSION.

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Highest b.c. .458 expanding hunting bullet is the 500gr TSX at only 0.412.

But I can get a custom bullet made, a .458/412-grainer with BC = 0.780, with MV of only 2450 fps, your .416-cal is easily whooped, from muzzle to infinity.

The .458 is too stubby for much higher b.c.'s unless it's a lot heavier than that, and muzzle speed will be low.

You exaggerate worse than I do!
My next bullet will go yours one better.
It will be a .458-cal 450-grainer with BC = 0.800 or more.
Launched at 2450 fps MV, it has almost a thousand ft-lbs more energy at the muzzle than the little .416-caliber 340-grainer that was launched at 2600 fps.
The .458/450-grain VLDHunting bullet keeps a big advantage past 1000 yards.

The .458 500gr TSX launched at around 2200 fps is no match for the .416 0.78 b.c. 340gr MTH at 2600 fps in terms of downrange energy retention.

Your CEB MTH is essentially a "boutique bullet" spurred into existence by the .416 Barrett.
I can get my own custom bullet made to top that with the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Highest b.c. .458 expanding hunting bullet is the 500gr TSX at only 0.412. The .458 is too stubby for much higher b.c.'s unless it's a lot heavier than that, and muzzle speed will be low. The .458 500gr TSX launched at around 2200 fps is no match for the .416 0.78 b.c. 340gr MTH at 2600 fps in terms of downrange energy retention.

Don't see the point in comparing two highly different weights...and who cares about shots beyond 200y when hunting DG?

Like RIP said, the CE bullet is for an altogether different cartridge and application.

If you want to push the limits off, let's go with a .375 Cheytac 0.85 BC at 3200

Aw, shucks, Gustavo just burst my bubble ...
Back to reality.
I'll be needing a spotter to call my shots for me ...

Rip ...

I do think 4sixteen is definitely into something .
The big reason for smaller carts than a 45 caliber rifle cart . Was greater range/lower trajectory and less recoil.
As he is accomplishing his goal from a 20" barreled hunting rifle. I say he has a spectacular point.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I do think 4sixteen is definitely into something .
The big reason for smaller carts than a 45 caliber rifle cart . Was greater range/lower trajectory and less recoil.
As he is accomplishing his goal from a 20" barreled hunting rifle. I say he has a spectacular point.

For normal hunting a person could have either 350gn TTSX in the magazine or 330gn GSC in the magazine under the MTH in a chamber. Maybe that would be nice for cross-canyon elk.

Of course, for simplicity in Africa. the MTH chamber-feed would not be necessary out to 400 yards, practically speaking.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:


...and who cares about shots beyond 200 y 50 Yards when hunting DG?

There. Fixed it for you!!!