bcelliott has a CZ 9.3x62mm, me too, and just as he said, I can get 3.450" COL into my magazine.
Using the 286-gr Partition,
3.500" will chamber OK, 3.550" is too long.
So just loading that Nosler to 3.450" would be peachy keen.
CIP maximum COL is supposed to be 83.60 mm = 3.291"

EDIT: Fly in ointment is that the 286-grain Nosler Partitions I have are 0.365" diameter,
while the old 250-gr Nosler Ballistic Tip is 0.366", 0.001" bigger.
That is just enough for the Ballistic Tip to be touching the rifling lands at 3.500" COL.
Both bullets are good at 3.450" COL.

The CZ factory rifle is already optimized for a 9.3x62mm-V-3.45".
Might be little to be gained by doing a 9.3x62mm-V-3.6",
but that probably won't stop me.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by canuck4570:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
All Kimber rifles from Yonkers are as RIP described. The action is cylindrical with a washer type recoil lug.

The safety is the 3 position Wing type wake a long, claw extractor, and blade ejector at the back of the action like Winchester with a slot the ejector jumps into when the bolt comes all the way back.

I do not know if the claw grabs/controls the round from the magazine. You can close the bolt on a round that was pushed into the chamber by the bolt.

I have a Caprivi. I will check on CRF from magazine when I am home tomorrow.

could you tell me it your Caprivi has a cone breach like the winchester

It has a cones breach. I will get up stairs and check CRF in about an hour.

thanks LHeym500

The Caprvi does control the cartidge feed from the magazine.

It does not have Control Round Extrication as RIP taught us in another forum.

The extractor itself has more tension than my Ruger, 375 Rugers.

My RSM Lott, Winchester Model 70 Super Grade, and Montana have great tension

My Caprivi is in 416 Remington.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by canuck4570:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
All Kimber rifles from Yonkers are as RIP described. The action is cylindrical with a washer type recoil lug.

The safety is the 3 position Wing type wake a long, claw extractor, and blade ejector at the back of the action like Winchester with a slot the ejector jumps into when the bolt comes all the way back.

I do not know if the claw grabs/controls the round from the magazine. You can close the bolt on a round that was pushed into the chamber by the bolt.

I have a Caprivi. I will check on CRF from magazine when I am home tomorrow.

could you tell me it your Caprivi has a cone breach like the winchester

It has a cones breach. I will get up stairs and check CRF in about an hour.

My Kimber Montana. Is controlled feed . non rotating extractor. Fixed blade ejector. But Not coned breech.

This is a tease for followup tomorrow.
It was great to be shooting again.
Rain stopped at 10 AM and I was shooting at high noon, cloudy and windy and 70*F, intermittent sun, a wonderful day,
good to be alive.
The above chronograph recording was the last of 33 shots by Bobbarrella,



30 shots with AA-2230, 3 shots with H4895.
Then there were the cast bullet loads in two other rifles ...

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by canuck4570:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
All Kimber rifles from Yonkers are as RIP described. The action is cylindrical with a washer type recoil lug.

The safety is the 3 position Wing type wake a long, claw extractor, and blade ejector at the back of the action like Winchester with a slot the ejector jumps into when the bolt comes all the way back.

I do not know if the claw grabs/controls the round from the magazine. You can close the bolt on a round that was pushed into the chamber by the bolt.

I have a Caprivi. I will check on CRF from magazine when I am home tomorrow.

could you tell me it your Caprivi has a cone breach like the winchester

It has a cones breach. I will get up stairs and check CRF in about an hour.

My Kimber Montana. Is controlled feed . non rotating extractor. Fixed blade ejector. But Not comes breech.

The smaller actions, well including the 84M, have a C-collar. I have read it is screw in C-collar. I wonder if like everything Kimber if it is some kind of hybrid.

I will take some photos, and send them to RIP. It may be next week.

It is kind of a small action. I'm used to Ruger Winchester, military 98 Mauser and CZ 550 actions . The Kimber 84 M substantially smaller diameter than the afore mentioned actions. I guess that is one reason it's so much lighter.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:


This is a tease for followup tomorrow.
It was great to be shooting again.
Rain stopped at 10 AM and I was shooting at high noon, cloudy and windy and 70*F, intermittent sun, a wonderful day,
good to be alive.
The above chronograph recording was the last of 33 shots by Bobbarrella,



30 shots with AA-2230, 3 shots with H4895.
Then there were the cast bullet loads in two other rifles ...

Rip ...

WOW!! Corrected to MV that's over 6100 ft-lbs!

My Ruger made 2590 (corrected to MV) from the 400-X from 78 grs H4198 @ 3.61" COL. But I'm backing off 1-grain from that (from P.O. Ackley's Handloads)

That's terrific RIP, thanks for sharing.

Our range will be open this Sunday, May 23, but I'll not be going the first week to avoid long waits (Members only). Instead, I aim to go a week from this Monday.

Enjoy!

Bob (Next blog on Bear bullets.)
www.bigbores.ca

Buy a donkey for those flowers, Bob.
400-grainer at 3.425" COL:
3-shot average at 5 yards = 2614 fps
BC = .340 makes 5-yard correction to muzzle = 13.1 fps.

MV = 2627 fps, KE = 6129 ft-lbs, by the RCBS calculator.
That will kill moose and bear, maybe both with one shot, if the 400-grain HYDRO is legal.

I have a liking for 3.395" COL with any 400-grainer in any .458 WIN.
Only have to reduce the COL by 0.030".
Will give H4895 a try at working up from 78.0 grains to 85.8 grains at 3.395" COL.
Start with a 100% fill and work up.
Will review the non-compressed AA-2230 results here after I go take care of the Old Ladies.

Rip ...

Is there a point of diminishing returns with a long throat? I know the older, long throat Weatherby’s were said to be difficult in accuracy department.

Why did Hornady short stork the Lott when the submitted it to SAMMI?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Is there a point of diminishing returns with a long throat? I know the older, long throat Weatherby’s were said to be difficult in accuracy department.

Why did Hornady short stork the Lott when the submitted it to SAMMI?

What I find interesting based on having owned three 458s, two M70s and one Ruger No 1 plus observing others is the accuracy in a properly set up rifle.

A Weatherby is a parallel section and specofication is .0005 over bullet diameter. Most are .375" long but the 378 and 460 are .75" long. Yhe .75" of the 378 and 460 is the same as the old Wby chamberings in 300 etc. One thing for sure is a Wby with over size free bore is a real hair pulling deal. Many years ago a gunsmith in Australia had some Clymer reamers that cut an over size parallel section and rifles so chambered were bad news.

But the 458 is not a parallel section so to me they should not shoot but they do.

Did Hornady or Art Apline submit the 458 Lott to SAMMI? I have heard both.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Tim Sundles, at Buffalo Bore , has assured me that Barnes is again making the 400 gr TSX .458

I see he has the 400 grain TSX ammo on his website now.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Did Hornady or Art Apline submit the 458 Lott to SAMMI? I have heard both.

Art Alphin and A-Square started making ammo for it prior to 1996.
A-Square was a SAAMI member then.
Whatever version of SAAMI homologation update of specs exists now, circa 2002, IIRC,
it could be blamed on earlier work by A-Square/ Art Alphin.
Hornady did not start making ammo for it until 2002 when Ruger also chambered a rifle for it.

quote:

Originally posted by ldmay375:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Tim Sundles, at Buffalo Bore , has assured me that Barnes is again making the 400 gr TSX .458

I see he has the 400 grain TSX ammo on his website now.

$120 for a box of 20 rounds, 400-gr TSX at about 2240-ish fps in an ordinary 22" factory barrel,
or 2250 fps exactly in the magical 18" barrel of Tim Sundles.



“DANGEROUS GAME” 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM
400 gr. Barnes TSX @ 2,250 fps / 4,496 ft-lbs
20-Round Box


BUFFALO BORE DANGEROUS GAME 458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM

ITEM 458 Win Mag DG 400 TSX

In my mind, true Dangerous Game cartridges need to be of large bullet diameter. I’ve killed a lot of game animals with many cartridges and I can say for a certainty, that if all else is equal, bullet diameter makes a huge difference in lethality. This might be a good time to read my essay on Kinetic Energy (FT. LBS.) versus TKO (Taylor Knock Out) where bullet diameter gets included in the mathematic lethality formulae.

458 diameter bullets, if constructed properly, are serious killers. In fact, you really do not need expanding bullets in 458. The bullet diameter alone, even with solids, simply kills assuming sufficient penetration.

This 400 gr. TSX load was developed for folks that like to use their 458 Win. Mag. for hunting or stopping North American game. It’s the perfect load for stopping giant bears at close quarters and for hunting moose out to 250 yards. I have a friend in Idaho that likes to hunt elk with his 458 Win. Mag. and this load would be perfect for that task as well. Remember that this 400 gr. mono-metal (all copper) expanding bullet is longer than a typical premium lead-based cup and core bullets of 500 grs. This means that this cartridge with its somewhat limited powder capacity, will lose needed capacity when the long-for-weight bullet is seated in the casing…….this will limit velocity, slightly. That trade-off is worth it as the way TSX bullets perform terminally, cannot be bested by any expanding bullet I know of. Normally, I can get shorter lead-based bullets of 400 grs. to achieve around 2,350 fps in the 458 Winchester Magnum. This load generates 2,250 fps in my 18-inch barreled 458. I could have added a couple more grains of powder and compressed the crap out of it with the seated bullet to achieve 2,350 fps, but I do not care for the practice of heavily compressing powder charges with the bullet. This load is slightly compressed, but not heavily compressed.

My 18-inch rifle shoots this bullet slightly faster than my 22-inch rifle. Why? Please read this article“Velocity Versus Barrel Length”. My 18-inch rifle sports an old highly custom Marquart barrel as I had this rifle made over 30 years ago, (the date of this writing being 05-2020) for kicking around in Coastal Alaska. My 22-inch rifle is a factory Winchester and simply does not have as slick/fast a barrel.



458 Rifles

➤ 2,247 fps -- Winchester, 22-inch
➤ 2,250 fps -- Custom made, 18-inch

Our propellant selection has allowed us to keep pressures below SAAMI average max. This can become important if your barrel gets filled with rainwater or dust, etc., which raises pressures upon firing and you may find that pulling the trigger with rain in your barrel will raise pressures beyond the rifle design and reliable rifle function can be compromised……..not good when facing an animal that can stomp or maul you into a pile of bloody flesh.

The first six times I hunted AK Brown Bear, my guide used a 458 Win. Mag. with 350 gr. hand loaded Hornady bullets and swore by it over the 375 H&H hands down and he had killed many dozens of big bears in his life. I expect that this load will become the gold standard of factory 458 ammo for AK bear guides that prefer to use the 458 Win. Mag.

Both of my test rifles shoot this load with extreme accuracy.

This is serious ammo for serious applications. Use it with confidence. Thank you.

https://www.buffalobore.com/in...product_detail&p=589


Funny how Tim Sundles is only customer of Barnes Bullets with access to .458"/ 400-gr TSX.

Rip ...

The .458 Lott has been well and truly vanquished by the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Above: Marcella relaxing at the range, with cast bullets.

Rip ...

I am not scientific enough to even type a decent hypothesis. However, I still “think” the length and width of these mono metal and heavy flat point bullets is playin on penetration.

These bullets are relatively the same length to the nose, so the bullet is stabilized across its length as it transverse media.

If you had a long wide bullet body with sharp taper at the ogive to a small, pointy nose that bullet would want to tip at the nose which may hinder penetration.

LHeym500,

Did you mean to post that on the "458 win mag" thread where all the bullet pictures are ?
This is the "458 winchester magnum" thread, THE MISSION.
Might get more action on the other thread.

But think of this: A 480-grain Hydro at 2300 fps has a little more momentum than a 500-grain Hydro at 2200 fps.
Just a little bit more, but being shorter would make it more stable, for a couple of reasons I can think of.

You have goaded me into posting that at the other thread.

Rip ...

The ballistic trainer and backup for the .458 WIN,
same weight as Marcella the M70 .458 WIN.
Barrel is only 20.5" long, appropriate scaling down from .458 to .366.
Three-position side safety and single set trigger.
All steel bottom metal except for a plastic magazine follower, to be replaced soon !
The C-clip firing pin support retainer was replaced by the double-nut retainer.
CZ-USA sent a spare firing pin assembly for free, long ago.
Even the adjustable rear sight is all steel.
And it is a bugholer with factory ammo.
I wonder if they still make them, or did they go broke on these too?
The Weaver "Dangerous Game" scope apparently cost more than the market could bear also, discontinued.
I bought one, then two more at half price on close-out sale.
They have a brilliant, true-1-power, both-eyes-wide-open capability.
Might have to put one on Marcella too, for the sororital twin outfitting.
Little sister and big sister same weights.
Classy walnut and trashy synthetic. Hubba hubba.





Main mounting screws on the rings also replaced with socket-head screws so a hex key in pants pocket is a handy QD-QD lever.
Always handy if you are wearing pants,
highly recommended when hunting.
Sling fits nicely in cargo pocket of those pants if not used as carry strap for rifle.

A CZ 550 Medium would make a dandy .458 WIN-V-3.45".

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
LHeym500,

Did you mean to post that on the "458 win mag" thread where all the bullet pictures are ?
This is the "458 winchester magnum" thread, THE MISSION.
Might get more action on the other thread.

But think of this: A 480-grain Hydro at 2300 fps has a little more momentum than a 500-grain Hydro at 2200 fps.
Just a little bit more, but being shorter would make it more stable, for a couple of reasons I can think of.

You have goaded me into posting that at the other thread.

Rip ...

I was. I was not intending to goad anyone. Long day. I beseech you for mercy. I re-read last night the Dangerous and Large Game cartridges installments by Van Walt who states the shorter bullet stabilizes better. We read so much of long, parallel side bullets penetrating the best. Of course, length per caliber is proportional to weight. Maybe, the length and parallel sides are irrelevant and limiting. Yet, the momentum of large bullets is the factor permitting penetration.

Not to relitigate the old Best Dangerous Game Bullet thread, but I still think the Wide flat point meplat aids penetration simply by counter acting force that would cause the bullet to tumble. It is harder to get that wide nose off path.

just got off the phone with Barnes Bullets about the 400 TSX and they are not in production at all.the ammo that Buffalo Bore is selling was a special run by Barnes for Buffalo Bore and not available to us but a request has been sent in to make it a production item for all of us. so maybe some day we will see a 400 TSX bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
... I re-read last night the Dangerous and Large Game cartridges installments by Van Walt who states the shorter bullet stabilizes better.

Pierre van der Walt also said: "I would like to touch on some logic here. Assuming that Hatcher, MacPherson and I are correct that a long for diameter bullet is unstable in a terminal medium ..." (pp 80-81)

We read so much of long, parallel side bullets penetrating the best. Of course, length per caliber is proportional to weight. Maybe, the length and parallel sides are irrelevant and limiting. Yet, the momentum of large bullets is the factor permitting penetration.

Yes. Momentum and whatever works to keep direction of travel straight. Also whatever works to reduce the resistance of the terminal medium.

Not to relitigate the old Best Dangerous Game Bullet thread, but I still think the Wide flat point meplat aids penetration simply by counter acting force that would cause the bullet to tumble.

SHOULDER STABILIZATION for sure.
Possibly better "super-cavitation".

It is harder to get that wide nose off path.

Yep, never trust a round nose or spitzer solid to stay straight
except in a dry, first-order terminal medium like a stack of homogeneous pine boards and air.

Doc M of MIB (McCourry Institute of Ballistics) and Sam of BBW (Bastard-file Bullet Works) worked it out, in the thread pinned to top of this forum.
A flat meplat about two-thirds of bullet diameter is optimum. That is about 65 to 67 per cent of caliber.
Finalized in nose profile BBW#13, that seemed to be the optimum nose shape for penetration and function.
Bigger than that won't feed well from bolt-action magazines, and also may offer more resistance in some terminal media.
Makers like North Fork and CEB started producing their solids with the BBW#13 nose profile.
And then there is the Woodleigh HYDRO, as good, or better?
It all depends.
There are no absolutes.
Everything is relative: Viking Law.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by hydehunter:
just got off the phone with Barnes Bullets about the 400 TSX and they are not in production at all.the ammo that Buffalo Bore is selling was a special run by Barnes for Buffalo Bore and not available to us but a request has been sent in to make it a production item for all of us. so maybe some day we will see a 400 TSX bullet.

BUY A BUY A BUY A BUY A DONKEY: Quadruple very much thank you.
That is two of us that have requested it.
And you got them to admit it was a custom run for Buffalo Bore only.

Rip ...

It might be that the 450-grain FN solid in .458 caliber is the optimum penetrator: HYDRO, CEB, North Fork, or GSC.
Momentum may be the highest with that weight, right in the middle of 400-grain to 500-grain range that might be considered.
At least it might be that way with the .458 WIN, and we now know the .458 WIN beats the .458 Lott with any bullet weight from 400 grains on up.

Might be good to use the 400-grain soft to assure it stays inside a buffalo for culling operations.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
It might be that the 450-grain FN solid in .458 caliber is the optimum penetrator: HYDRO, CEB, North Fork, or GSC.
Momentum may be the highest with that weight, right in the middle of 400-grain to 500-grain range that might be considered.
At least it might be that way with the .458 WIN, and we now know the .458 WIN beats the .458 Lott with any bullet weight from 400 grains on up.

Might be good to use the 400-grain soft to assure it stays inside a buffalo for culling operations.

Rip ...

Don’t leave the Barnes 450gr FN solid out of your list. Some of us have lucked into stashes of them and Keep them locked up for a rainy day...;-)

The last couple of posts reminded me of some 450 grain .458 NF FPS bullets that I picked up a few years ago. They were custom to work in a Winchester 1886 rifle and I used them in my .45-90 (aka .458 2.4).
They really shot through things!

Then came the chance to participate in testing .458 bullets in 1886 rifles in Africa.
I donated my NF bullets and 45-90 rifle and brass to the project and others took care of the loading.
We sent a hunter experienced in Africa and the 1886 rifles to do the shooting.

In a nutshell, they shot through Cape Buff bodies and ele heads like there was no tomorrow!
So did the Punch 430 grain bullets.

It is the bullet that does the killing!

crshelton,

I believe !
Buy a donkey for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
Don’t leave the Barnes 450gr FN solid out of your list. Some of us have lucked into stashes of them and Keep them locked up for a rainy day...;-)

OK, from my small stash, for posterity and for THE MISSION:



(OK, maybe save the 3.700" COL for use with the 500-grainer only.)

Certainly a great bullet, banished by Barnes, for whatever screwed up reason.
Another chance to kick sand in the face of the SAAMI .458 Lott.

Rip ...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LkzaSMYjiDo

Here is a video speaking of the Winchester Model 70 458 free bore chamber or long throat. The guys dope is it straight as this thread has taught us, but I thought I would add it.

We all ready know this, but RIP’s 458 WM is awesome.

Here is the long and short the 458 Lott is the 458 WM for those who are not proficient in handling.

LHeym500,

Good Ol' FortuneCookie45LC !
I have watched some of his videos before, but that was a new one for me.
His attitude and spirit are excellent, an old man acting like a young kid with a new toy.

I like that he recognizes that cast bullets in the long-throated, relatively fast-twist .458 WIN can be made to perform excellently,
but are more of a challenge than with the shorter-throated, slower-twist, and possibly tighter grooved rifles like the .45-70 Govt., etc.
He also recognizes the failsafe nature of the .458 WIN throating which he humorously calls a "quirk":
It will handle just about any bullet in any situation, and prevent pressure problems.

But a few things made me cringe, like showing his scope mounted with front ring around the very end of a Leupold 1.5-5x20mm (or similar scope).
Also his fear of push-feeding a round into the chamber though the M70 Classic style action is designed to do that as well as CRF from the magazine.
And he uses a lead sled and a one-hand grip to test fire the rifle in the next video !

Rip ...

Getting the .458 WIN to just over 6000 ft-lbs of KE at the muzzle is a pretty good indication of near maximal loads,
whatever the bullet weight from 350 grains through 500 grains.
I wondered if that would apply over the more extreme range of 250 grains through 600 grains.
Is +6000 ft-lbs possible throughout that range?
Well, maybe, maybe not.
Maybe one should not expect so much from the lightest of bullets.
The .458 Lott might do better with the 250-grainers and birdshot loads.

Here are the numbers to be plotted as a guide:





The 6001 to 6004 ft-lbs KE loads above are plotted as the little black squares on the graph below.
They connected up smoothly using a French curve and a pencil.

Here are four actual loads that exceed 6000 ft-lbs KE with the .458 WIN using a 25" barrel,
plotted as the little red squares below:



The "legend" comments in red letters beside the actual loads give the basic load details.
All that was left out was brass make and the primer.
That would be Hornady and F-215 respectively for those "Red Letter Loads."
I have found Winchester (W-W SUPER) brass with WLRM primers to work equally well.
If I use that combo I call them "Legendary Loads."

Rip ...

The greatest actual load KE came with the shortest COL and it was with the 400-gr Woodleigh PP SN at only 3.425" COL.
All the other bullets were TSX by Barnes.

If the Barnes 400-grain TSX ever becomes available to handloaders, I suspect it will make another nice Red Letter Load or Legendary Load.
I suspect it might do this at about 3.580" COL.
Stuff it into a case full of AA-2230 or H4895 and it might beat 6000 ft-lbs KE.
Might be the stuff of legends. Pun intended.

Until then Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis Technology will continue to convert 500-grain TSX bullets into 400-grain and 480-grain bullets.

Rip ...

FOR THE MISSION GUYS!!!

Look what my .458WM did on the weekend!




I was using old Red & White box factory ammo with the old 510gn Winchester soft-point.
I have chrono'd this ammo out of my rifle at 2015fps.

I originally sourced this ammo so I could shoot it off as quickly as possible so I can load the empties...
But the more I shoot this stuff the more impressed I am with it.

My mate wanted a shot with my rifle (he had never fired an elephant gun before...) and fired one of these factory rounds at a Gum tree easily the size of a telephone pole... and the soft-point zipped clean through.
His second shot did exactly the same thing!

The Red Deer pictured took a poor shot to the ribs at around 50m immediately followed by a better shot on the shoulder - and my friends who were some distance away, said they heard the THWACK! as the projectiles hit home.
(The second shot - the good one, dumped the deer almost immediately. It travelled maybe 10m and was stone dead by the time I reached it.)
Both my friends had never seen an animal taken with a .458 before and both commented that the entry holes made by the .458 looked like their rifles exit holes!

Also when sighting in with the factory ammo, it puts 3 shots in the same hole at 50m.
So it's accurate too.

Also, sighted in 2" high at 50m puts it around 2.5" high at 100m, ZERO at 150m and around 7" low at 200m.
When all things are considered thats not too bad a trajectory out to 200m in my book if you want to use it on smaller stuff like deer etc... and the horsepower is always there in case you run into something bigger and meaner...

I guess what I'm trying to say is although I handload and love doing it, if you do have some of this factory ammo laying around, it performs better than you might expect.
There's still a lot of this stuff being used in the Northern Territory of Australia on big Scrub Bulls and Water Buffalo and a friend who shoots a lot of this same ammo on such beasts says it's very effective.

I have a Buffalo cull hunt booked in for next year in the NT and even though I'm working on a 550gn load to take up (when I can get some powder!), I really wouldn't feel undergunned using this factory ammo...

As a handloader I never thought I'd be writing that!


Oh, and this is what my .458 also did on the weekend...



LONG LIVE THE GREAT .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM!

badboymelvin;

GREAT STUFF!!! (except for the bloody forehead!)

Thanks!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca