Fraternal twin brothers of the .458 Winchester Magnum:



Throating is the family identifier.
These two would be for supersonic and subsonic fun.
Of course the same could be done with fast twist barrel on a .458 Winchester Magnum and proper loading.

A sabot of .458-caliber to .366-caliber is also intriguing, and a 1:8" twist .458 Winchester Magnum might do nicely for that.
286-grainer at 3000 fps ?

Speaking of families and 9.3mm caliber,
seems the Grizzly Skins Clan is using the 9.3x62mm Mauser lately as a backup rifle, at least Tia uses it to save the bacon of her bear hunting clients.
She is also a .375 Ruger and .416 Rem.Mag. user:



I like to think Phil has not retired Ol'Ugly the .458 Winchester Magnum "Mauser" Mark X for a 9.3x62mm Mauser rifle !



Ol'Ugly ... not Phil, the rifle, a .458 Winchester Magnum:



.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Inspiring photos, RIP. Thanks for posting.
Damn that's a big bear!

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Inspiring photos, RIP. Thanks for posting.
Damn that's a big bear!

Yep, and that is a big rifle compared to the 100-pound Tia.
She is a hardy girl who well demonstrates that recoil tolerance is mostly mental, mostly just bein' willin'.
She puts a lot of men to shame, having to shoot their wounded bears for them.

Somewhere I have the article where Jack Lott details the birthing of the 460 GA.

quote:

Speaking of families and 9.3mm caliber,
seems the Grizzly Skins Clan is using the 9.3x62mm Mauser lately as a backup rifle, at least Tia uses it to save the bacon of her bear hunting clients.
She is also a .375 Ruger and .416 Rem.Mag. user:

https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-co.../04/G0619-TANK-5.jpg

I like to think Phil has not retired Ol'Ugly the .458 Winchester Magnum "Mauser" Mark X for a 9.3x62mm Mauser rifle !

A 100-lb. Tia likes the 375Ruger?
Sounds like a young version of Lady Tanzan (though LT may be heavier at 105 lb.) and Tia probably has several hundred times more hunting experience. Ladies that like the 375Ruger are doing something right. And the 9.3 and 416 arn't too shabby either. A person recognizes that the recoil is not going to hurt and then just holds on to ride it.

416Tanzan,
Yup, 9.3x62mm (might be a Ruger Hawkeye African ?),
.375 Ruger Hawkeye in Alaskan mode pictured above,
with flashlight picatinny under the barrel, "a la Phil"
and her pride and joy is a D'Arcy Echols .416 Rem.Mag. M70, weighing 8 pounds scoped, IIRC.
She is a determined young lady oblivious to recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Somewhere I have the article where Jack Lott details the birthing of the 460 GA.

The article I posted at bottom of last page of this thread, from June 1989 G&A, is a vague retrospective,
but there are many other articles from circa 1970 onward.
Working our way backwards ...

"The 458-Plus Arrives" by Jack Lott, HANDLOADERS DIGEST 10th Edition 1984, pp. 119 - 124, might have been posted earlier in this thread. Will look see ...

Yes. Entire article is on page 21 of this thread, for THE MISSION.

Jack Lott: "In the early 70s, I began experimenting with 458-caliber wildcats, beginning with the 460 G&A on the basic 404 (10.75 X 73) case, but straightened out and trimmed to 2.800-in. ...

(Others worked on that one before Jack, so he really could not call it his own.)

"My next effort was to design a short 458 magnum on a 2-1/2-inch basic 404 case so as to clean up original 458 chambers ...

"Finding Norma brass ... a bit soft, my mind turned back to Winchester-Western H&H belted brass, the springiest and toughest of all braas I've used ...

"I recalled the almost forgotten 450 Watts, the 2.850-inch (375 H&H length) belted straight-tapered progenitor of the .458 Winchester Magnum ..."

Then off to the push for commercial success, since the .460 G&A was not getting popular.

1971 has been said to be the year that Jack rustled up the Watts and changed its brand to ".458 Lott" and sometimes ".458 Long" early on
while Jack was still feeling a little guilty about the wildcat rustling.

Jack recounted the story of his 1959 Mozambique bullfight to lead off that article about his rush to come up with an alternative to the .458 Winchester Magnum,
more than a decade after assault and battery upon his person by the buffalo.

This must have been the buffalo before the one that tossed Jack Lott:



Funny thing is he tells of returning to Africa in 1962 and 1963,
toting the same pair of safari rifle chamberings, .458 Winchester Magnum and .375 H&H,
but this time his "battery" was fully scoped,
respectively with Lyman Alaskan 2.5X and Weaver K-2.5.
And he shot very well with them thereafter.
Jack raved about the efficacy of a scoped .458 Winchester Magnum:
"The advantages of a heavy caliber scoped rifle are that it will take game from any angle, usually
putting them down quickly and eliminating long spooring."

In the early 70s the ".458 Lott/Long" went along.
And the Lottite cabal was born.


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

It has been reported that former co-owner with her husband of Barnes Bullets, Coni Brooks, who only weighed about 120 lbs, could shoot the 460 Wby better than most men!

I've written on this a number of times that, as RIP said, the fear of recoil is mostly mental, and in some case 100% so! To illustrate that fact, I have two sons that are hunters/shooters that live within the GTA, about an hour to one-and-a-half hours from here by auto. One is a member at the same range where I've been a member for the past thirty-one years. The oldest (62) spent two decades in Africa, living with family in the outback until their last couple of years when they moved into Dakar. He became a licensed BG hunter, mostly using a 12ga with Brennekes (when he could get them or afford them) and a single-shot .22LR with which he brought home the "bacon" in shooting many warthogs for protein and sport. When I visited, I used his 12ga with Brennekes. But he dislikes much recoil though he outweighs me by 60 lbs and 3 inches taller. He also works out regularly in a gym and bench presses XXX hundreds of pounds! His rifle is a .356 Winchester (for which I make handloads of 220gr Speers at about 2250 fps.

The other son outweighs me by at least 100 lbs is 6'2", and has owned a Ruger #1 and #3 in .45-70 for which he and I made stiff handloads. He also had a .338 Win Mag for several years and got wacked on the brow 2x when firing at moose! Now his "big gun" is a 7-08 Remington!

I'll be 85 in two months from today and still shoot my .458 Win Mag and a stiff loaded 9.3 x 62. I'm not fearful of either, but considering my age, I do have some concerns over potential retina detachment (I'm blind in one eye since childhood), so I'm loading "down" both rifles for "safety" reasons. They will still get any job done and I'm enjoying that challenge of developing accurate modest loads:

2600 fps for the 250 AB from the 9.3 x 62; and 2490 fps from the 286 Partition. Formerly, those bullets were leaving at +2700 and +2600 respectively. They both were very accurate and did their jobs excellently on bear.

My current load for the .458 is the 350gr Speer at 2500. What I'd like to do for next spring's bear hunt is use the 480gr Hor. DGX at a modest 1810 fps. With it's blunt tip it should work on anything to as far as I could hit anything with it. I've already developed that load and it's on file. At one time I used a 465gr hardcast with a 1/4" FT from a NEF single-shot in .45-70 on a 6' black bear at 70 yards as it faced me. MV was 1900. The bear was flattened on the spot and the bullet buried itself somewhere under the bear. It never expanded. There was a bullet size hole in and out, but the inside was missing a heart and the chest cavity was flooded with red liquid.

Just some "bits and pieces" for THE MISSION!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Rip, what are those bits sticking out of the fore ends on both Tia and Phil's rifles?

I take it they both use Leupold M8 2.5x scopes. I bought one the one day to use as an emergency on the Zastava 9.3x62, in the event the Nickel Supralyt packs in, but will only just have room fitting it between the Burris Universal mounts. I don't expect mechanical trouble from the Nickel, of course, but I've heard their lens cement could be a fraction brittle and have seen fungus in one or two.

Looks a rail for flash light for following big bears in dark.

sambarman338,
You must be feigning sometimer's as a jolly good show of supporting THE MISSION.
For that: Buy a donkey !
Search this thread, page 128, where you were posting just before this picture appeared:



Also the close-up pics, how Phil does it,
rings that hold the flashlight and clamp onto the Picatinny rail sticking out from forend under the barrel:





Bob,
I am enjoying reduced recoil too.
Selous killed the Big Five with .461"/ 540- to 570-grainers at about 1300 fps.
My smokeless loads duplicating that for deer are gentle !

quote:

Bob,
I am enjoying reduced recoil too.
Selous killed the Big Five with .461"/ 540- to 570-grainers at about 1300 fps.
My smokeless loads duplicating that for deer are gentle !

RIP and Bob, you are starting to talk about what I have been contemplating for sometime in the future.

My solution to reduced recoil is to use a 416 or 375 Ruger so that reasonably flat loads can reach out to 300 yards.

A 550 grainer at 1300fps sounds more like a handgun round. Let me explain. A 300gn flatnose solid at 1300fps is going to penetrate deeply, and sufficiently for most hunting, although ultimately not as deeply as a 550gn. A 45 Colt in a robust Ruger or Freedom Arms, or 45 Casull would go a long way to duplicating the ballistics.

The 480gr Hor DGX at 1810 is a replacement for about 200 hardcast 465s which don't shoot well in my #1 Ruger .458. RIP intentionally, or unintentionally explained why that was so: They should be about .459" instead of .458 -- which worked excellently in my .45-70s. I would prefer to use them, but they didn't shoot well enough in my former CZ550 either, though I tried several different COLs, powders and MVs.

So, in lieu of those 465s, I hope to go to the 480gr DGX at about the same MV as the 465s in my single-shot .45-70s.

The load for the DGX in the #1 Ruger .458 is 67 grains of RL-15 at a corrected MV of 1810. Recoil is less than 30 ft-lbs and accuracy is very good.

A ballistic profile shows that such a load could be useful on anything to +300 yards, or well beyond that if you can shoot like Sharpsguy.

Sorry for getting off the current theme, but Tia made me do it!

The weather has been terrible here so little hunting so far.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
My solution to reduced recoil is to use a 416 or 375 Ruger so that reasonably flat loads can reach out to 300 yards.

I just ordered some MMP .45-.357 sabots.
Will try them in a 1:10" twist .458 B&M to see if .366-cal, 250-286-grainers in a 1:8" twist .458 WIN.Mag. might be feasible.
This is THE MISSION, don'tchaknow.

A 550 grainer at 1300fps sounds more like a handgun round. Let me explain. A 300gn flatnose solid at 1300fps is going to penetrate deeply, and sufficiently for most hunting, although ultimately not as deeply as a 550gn. A 45 Colt in a robust Ruger or Freedom Arms, or 45 Casull would go a long way to duplicating the ballistics.

Exactly, the old buffalo hunters of the American West were at best lobbing .45-cal/ ~550-grainers at ~1300 fps MV to way out there.
One can kill anything with that if one can shoot like sharpsguy.
The rifle does have better aiming qualities than the handgun for long range use,
but a super-magnum revolver is not too far behind in trajectory and retained energy for closer range work.

In the words of Ross Seyfried, .458 Winchester Magnum Denier Emeritus:

"Further, for anyone to infer that because the velocity
was only 1,800 fps, the 500-grain solid bullet would
only stick in the skin of an elephant, is purest folly.
Selous killed many elephants and buffalo with his .461
Gibbs Metford rifle. This used a 540- or 570-grain,
slightly hardened, lead bullet with about 1250 fps
velocity. These would penetrate completely through
most buffalo and to the far side of elephant. The .475
revolver will exit both shoulders of a buffalo and has
been known to make the frontal brain shots, penetrating
into the neck, on big bull elephant. This with 430-grain
bullets and 1300 fps velocity. Thus by very basic
reasoning we see that even an anemic .458 load has
plenty of punch to kill perfectly, let alone get through
the skin. So why all the fuss?"

Indeed. Why all the fuss ?
Just the Lottite Cabal, business as usual, like Damnedocrat politics.


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
The 480gr Hor DGX at 1810 is a replacement for about 200 hardcast 465s which don't shoot well in my #1 Ruger .458. RIP intentionally, or unintentionally explained why that was so: They should be about .459" instead of .458 -- which worked excellently in my .45-70s. I would prefer to use them, but they didn't shoot well enough in my former CZ550 either, though I tried several different COLs, powders and MVs.

SAAMI minimum specification groove diameter for the .45-70 Government is 0.456" with 0.450" bore diameter.
SAAMI maximum specification for bullet diameter (jacketed) is 0.4580" but allowed to be as small as 0.4550" diameter and still "in spec."

SAAMI minimum specification groove diameter for the .458 Winchester Magnum is 0.458" with 0.450" bore diameter.
SAAMI maximum specification for bullet diameter (jacketed) is 0.4590" but allowed to be as small as 0.4560" diameter and still "in spec."

Most .45-70 Government rifles have .457" to .458" groove diameter and are "in spec," commonly 0.001" to 0.002" more than minimum.
Most .458 Winchester Magnum rifles have groove diameter of 458" to .459" and are "in spec," most commonly no more than 0.001" greater than minimum.

I truly believe that smokeless-propelled, hardcast bullet diameter should be +0.002" bigger than groove diameter for best work in either
.45-70 Government or .458 Winchester Magnum.

With softer cast bullets that "bump up" or obturate more readily, +0.001" or less might do.
Slug your barrels, and try your bullets of whatever hardness and lube,
and see what works for bullet sizing.

With BLACK POWDER smacking the base of the softcast, grease-lubed bullet harder, even -0.001" smaller than bullet diameter might be good.

So, in lieu of those 465s, I hope to go to the 480gr DGX at about the same MV as the 465s in my single-shot .45-70s.

The load for the DGX in the #1 Ruger .458 is 67 grains of RL-15 at a corrected MV of 1810. Recoil is less than 30 ft-lbs and accuracy is very good.

A ballistic profile shows that such a load could be useful on anything to +300 yards, or well beyond that if you can shoot like Sharpsguy.

Sharpsguy uses a 480-grainer in his .45-70 BPCR at barely 1300 fps to kill African plains game out to 500 yards with barrel sights !!!

Sorry for getting off the current theme, but Tia made me do it!

No apology warranted. All themes make good fodder for THE MISSION !

The weather has been terrible here so little hunting so far.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Elmer Keith thought a 400-gr hardcast FN at 1800 fps from the .45-70 Government was a great load for elk in timber.
The Hornady 480-gr DGX FN at 1810 fps should make Grace the .458 WINm! Ruger No. 1 into a regular Lucretia Borgia type poison slinger,
for anything in North America,
and FUN TO SHOOT from prone too.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

About as specific as it gets on the 460 G&A,
any older articles will be gravy:

A 1994 reprint of the sold-out "collector's item" edition of 1983, by GUNS & AMMO was also a memorial to Jack Lott.
It was mostly same as original, but not quite the same, after Jack's passing.



Jacques P. Lott
b. July 15, 1920
d. August 12, 1993
R.I.P.

Your granddaddy's .458 Winchester Magnum was always more than adequate, and even better nowadays in all its glory.
Technological developments in bullets and propellants were due to no fault of the .458 Winchester Magnum,
but it has benefitted greatly from them.
The greatest is now even greater, just competing against itself.
The .458 Winchester Magnum trumps all, no damned politics or lies (but I repeat myself) about it.



THE GREAT ONE

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
The 480gr Hor DGX at 1810 ...

The load for the DGX in the #1 Ruger .458 is 67 grains of RL-15 at a corrected MV of 1810. Recoil is less than 30 ft-lbs and accuracy is very good.

A ballistic profile shows that such a load could be useful on anything to +300 yards, or well beyond that if you can shoot like Sharpsguy.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

KE of 480-grainer at 1810 fps = 3,492 ft-lbs

For calculating MTE down range, MTE = KE@impact X SD X CSA

CSA of .458 bullet = 0.1647 sq.in.
SD of 480-gr DGX = 0.327

KE in ft-lbs = [(V*2)/(450,387)] X (Bullet weight in grains)

I have verified that KE formula by using universal gravitational constant to 6 significant digits.
Good enough for nearest 0.1 ft-lb, round to nearest 1.0 ft-lb unit.

Or you can use this table to nearest 10 fps for KE per grain of bullet weight,
from Powley tabulation as shown in P.O. Ackley:



When you get to Mach 3 you'll need to go to the next page:

.458 Win.Mag. in 24" Magnaported Ruger No. 1 barrel,
Bob's woods load:
480-gr Hornady DGX with 67.0 grains of RL-15 >>> 1810 fps MV ... KE = 3,492 ft-lbs
(presumed COL = 3.200" crimped on Hornady cannelure)



Review to emphasize the versatility of the .458 Winchester Magnum with same and other type bullets of 480-ish-grain weight:



Jacketed Bullet:
25" Shilen barrel (Bobbarrella-CZ with brake)
Rip load:
480-gr Hornady DGX with 78.3 grains of AA-2230 >>> 2297 fps MV ... KE = 5,623 ft-lbs
(COL = 3.340" with crimp at the added CH4D cannelure)

Cast Bullets:
23" McGowen barrel (Marcella-M70)
487-gr Lee Plain Base Pointed Round Nose Hardcast PC-painted with 65.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 1945 fps (5-yard) ... KE = 4,091 ft-lbs
(COL 3.500", no filler)
475-gr Lyman "Mini-Money" GC Hardcast PC-painted with 65.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 1961 fps (5-yard) ... KE = 4,056 ft-lbs
(COL 3.450, no filler)



Monometal copper bullet:
25" Shilen barrel (Bobbarrella-CZ with brake)
480-gr T6 (nose-shortened 500-gr TSX) with 77.0 gr AA-2460 >>> 2263 fps (5-yard) ... KE = 5,458 ft-lbs
(COL = 3.570")
Sub-MOA, made with mini-chopsaw, drill press, bastard file, and hand de-burring tool !



.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

I wonder why the Hornady Factory loaf is loaded so short instead of to 3.340?

RIP can you tell us?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I wonder why the Hornady Factory loaf is loaded so short instead of to 3.340?

TIP can you tell us?

Josh,

Because of where the cannelure is, after Hornady redesigned their bullets so they would fit into a 3.600" COL with .458 Lott brass crimped on cannelure,
without trimming the .458 Lott brass shorter.
They short-shrifted the .458 Winchester Magnum for the benefit of the neer-do-well .458 Lott.
Politics of the Lottite Cabal !

Now go delete that partial duplication of my post which you copied just before I finished adding the cast bullet picture, please.
We don't want to waste Saeed's bandwidth.

Thank you you and did it. I think.

Ross Seyfried did some honest reporting before he started doing his fake news on the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Regarding Jack Lott's buffalo fiasco of 1959 in Mozambique, which Jack used for decades as a ploy for impugning .458 Winchester Magnum "power,"
Ross Seyfried reported truly AND delivered astute opinion.
This was in RIFLE # 204 (Nov-Dec 2002, pp. 22-26).
It was the roll out of the SAAMI .458 Lott cartridge.
His piece was entitled simply ".458 Lott."

Seyfried:
In reality, using Jack's own words, we see that power had nothing to do with the problem.
I will quote his narrative:
"It was clear what happened. As I fired my first shot the bull was spinning counter-clockwise so the bullet entered the right ribs and into the paunch."
(His first all-important shot was a gut-shot. Not to to worry, it happens to the best of us.)
"My second shot, a solid, smashed his right leg high, just below the shoulder joint, semi mushroomed and failed to penetrate to the vital arteries between the shoulders."
So, let's dissect the problem and see why the buffalo was not dead from the first or even second round.

(Edit by Rip: Jack Lott stated in the original source that on that fateful day he alternated softnose and solid bullets,
and he stated that the second shot fired was a solid.)

Seyfried:
Bullet placement was, for probably very good reasons, impossibly bad on the first shot.
Because Jack clearly states that round two was a solid, I presume the first was a softnose.
Had this bullet been a solid, there is a good chance that it would have penetrated through to and broken the pelvis or back leg.
With this the bull would have been more or less disabled and at least somewhat easier to finish.
The second shot's failure was purely due to bullet failure.

(Edit by Rip: One has to presume also that the first shot, if it had been a solid,
would not have "semi mushroomed" on encountering the lighter rib bone.
Jack Lott was using Winchester factory ammunition for the .458 Winchester Magnum.)

Seyfried:
Americans had a lot to learn about solids and for a long time felt that if a bullet had a "full metal jacket,"
regardless of that jacket, it would perform as a solid.
Not true.
This one "mushroomed" and failed to penetrate.
The result would have undoubtedly been WORSE with the .458 Lott,
due to its higher velocity and greater potential to destroy less than perfect bullets.

(Edit by Rip: This implies that the factory ammo was plenty speedy in the .458 Winchester Magnum.)

Seyfried:
So, Jack got stomped not because of lack of power or due to the .458 Winchester's fault in any way.
He got stomped because of bad bullet placement and bad bullets!

Hey is that a .458 Winchester Magnum banner on the Amish wagon ?

To shoot like sharpsguy,
with a .458-cal/ 480-ish-grain FN cast bullet at 1300 fps MV,
cleanly taking plains game out to 500 yards
with barrel sights,
i.e., to BAG WELL,
there are these prerequisites:

1. A laser rangefinder.
2. An optometrist who will correct the shooter's vision to 20/10 or better.
3. Calm wind.
4. Favorable daylight on the sights and target.
5. Proper rifle and ammo: .45-70 Govt. or the immensely versatile and accurate .458 Winchester Magnum.

The Blue Moon will be full tonight for Halloween,
with Mars beside it, almost directly overhead about midnight, where I am.
An iPhone snapshot from my backyard last night:



Hoping for clear skies tonight !

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The recent article about Tia and the 9.3x62 mistakenly claimed Tia was using a 9.3x62.
Once Tia traded in her 375 Ruger for her 416 Remington ! She has only used it when guiding, it was her client who used the 9.3 to kill the bear in that photo.
And while I often carry one of my 9.3x62 rifles during moose season, Old Ugly is still my preferred bear rifle

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The recent article about Tia and the 9.3x62 mistakenly claimed Tia was using a 9.3x62.

That would be in THE COMPLETE BOOK OF RELOADING 2021, pp. 28-31,
a glossy little magazine that recently appeared in the magazine rack at the local Sam's Club in Kentucky.
The article was entitled "Mauser Madness" by Cork Graham. Shame on him.

Once Tia traded in her 375 Ruger for her 416 Remington ! She has only used it when guiding, it was her client who used the 9.3 to kill the bear in that photo.
And while I often carry one of my 9.3x62 rifles during moose season, Old Ugly is still my preferred bear rifle

This is a prime example of the sort of subterfuge that has been foisted upon us by the Lottite Commercial Cabal (LCC).
In this example, the item being sold is the Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan in 9.3x62mm Mauser.
More than a bit dishonest, eh ?
Author did not need to lie about it. That rifle needs no help in selling.
I impulse-bought one myself, first time I saw it at the local emporium.
Similar stretching of the truth has been used by the LCC to belittle the .458 Winchester Magnum and push the .458 Lott onto the gullible.

Tia carries a "Legendary" D'Arcy Echols .416 Remington Magnum M70 Winchester for her backup work on Brown Bears.
There's no going back to a .375 Ruger after that.
Phil still carries Ol'Ugly the .458 Winchester Magnum Mauser.
Impossible to beat that for effectiveness if not beauty.
Here is a picture of that HEAVENLY HARDWARE on Tia's rifle,
D'Arcy Echols' better mousetrap:



A Legend in .458 WIN+P+L 3.6" would be very nice, and better than all those floating around out there with SAAMI .458 Lott chambering.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Speaking of heavenly, I gotta include this from last night from my back deck and an iPhone-8:







The clouds parted and Mars was ascendant.
Just like ignorance clearing and the red god smiling happiest on the .458 Winchester Magnum.


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Another example of obfuscation like that of the Lottite Commercial Cabal is not quite so outrageous as has been heaped upon the .458 Winchester Magnum.
It is from the same magazine as the insult to Tia's recoil tolerance and prevarication about her shooting the bear with her 9.3x62mm Mauser.
(More likely, the client shot the bear with a 9.3x62mm Mauser Ruger Hawkeye African and Tia had to finish it off with her Echols .416 Rem.Mag. M70 Legend.)

Anyway, this one is just sloppiness in comparing the .300 Win.Mag. to the .300 PRC to curry favor for the latter:

Jay Langston on page 69, "300: The Sequel"
(They like short titles to their articles.):

"Readers might wonder why the .300 PRC exists at all, with the multitude of .30-caliber magnums already in existence.
The .300 PRC fixes the problems associated with the .300 Win Mag's long SAAMI spec throat of 0.315 inches, and the cartridge's short neck.
When compared to the .300 PRC, shooting the .300 Win Mag is
'like throwing a hot dog down a hallway,'
said Ruger's Mark Gurney.
This is a pretty loose fit for a cartridge that is used in a precision role.
The .300 PRC also solves the problematic bullet seating position out of the case body where it intrudes into the powder column."



The .300 PRC actually has a longer throat overall than the .300 Winchester Magnum.

Distance from maximum brass length case mouth to the end of the leade (bore diameter) in each chamber:

.300 Win: 2.9545" - 2.6200" = 0.3345"

.300 PRC: 3.0050" - 2.5800" = 0.4250"

The bullet travel distance from maximum brass length case mouth to groove diameter is also greater for the .300 PRC:

.300 Win: 2.8156" - 2.6200" = 0.1956"

.300 PRC: 2.8521" - 2.5800" = 0.2721"



What was the author of that magazine article trying to say ?
I do not know, but he obviously confused some facts.

The .300 WIN has a leade-only throat like the .458 Winchester Magnum, but less acute leade angle in the .300 WIN.
The leade diameter at its start is 0.3150", leade hemi-angle is 1*26'37".
The length of the throat is shorter than that of the .300 PRC.

The .300 PRC has a parallel-sided-free-bore of 0.3088" diameter and 0.2328" length for those parallel sides
then it starts into the leade of 1*30'00" hemi-angle, i.e., 3-degree cone angle for leade.

The .300 PRC has a 40% longer bullet/cylindrical-slug jump than the .300 Winchester Magnum.
In other words the hotdog gets thrown 40% farther down the hallway with the .300 PRC than with the .300 WIN !

"Throwing a hotdog down a hallway."
That is a funny one !


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

This is GOLDEN:

".458 Lott, Jack's Legacy"
by Ross Seyfried
RIFLE #204 Nov-Dec 2002, pp. 22-26

Ross starts it off with a sort of sub-subtitle as his first short paragraph of the article:

Ross Seyfried

THE COMMERCIAL ESTABLISHMENT OF A FINE BIG-BORE CARTRIDGE -- AND WHY IT EXISTS.

Notice the prominence of the word "commercial."
Is this a wink and a nod to the Lottite Commercial Cabal ?

To begin at the beginning, I must do two things that

surprise me and then ask some very major ballistic questions.

Remember the phrase "ballistic questions" starts this off and also ends it for Ross.

First, I will mildly disagree with my late friend Jack Lott.



Second, I will, now with a "very-mild" connotation, defend the .458 Winchester.

Very mild my ass !

Then we look at the first professional, "pressure-gun" data for the Lott.

This data is wildly different than we expected, and we are only able to ask an educated, Why?

The goal is to offer a good understanding of the whys and wherefores of a fine round, the .458 Lott,

now adopted by Hornady and Ruger. ...

Well, boo hoo for the .458 Lott and HOO RAH for the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Now skip to the last 2 pages of these 5 pages of true enlightenment.

You can see the complete load workup from the Hornady lab.

The ballistician tells me he worked to a maximum of 62,000 psi

(electronic piezo) and that the barrel was a Wiseman and nearly identical

to the company's .458 Winchester pressure barrel.

Both pressure barrels were 24" long and .458" in groove diameter.
The .458 Lott had 1:10" twist, the .458 Winchester Magnum had 1:14" twist.
NO EXCUSE !

The largest surprise was that he was

only able to wring 2,250 fps out of the Lott

with one powder, Winchester 748.

Maximum data for several other powders is within

a few tenths of a grain of their maximum

for the .458 Winchester.

The Lott case should have much more

internal capacity than the Winchester,

and therefore, it should take significantly more

of the same powder to achieve the same ballistics.

But this is not so, because the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat produces greater "effective" case capacity
and pressure reduction at shorter Cartridge Overall Length for the same bullet.
Therefore, model the .458 Winchester Magnum in QuickLoad
by adding about 13 grains of water to its default gross case capacity,
even though COL remains 3.340".

We also see that the maximum load of 4320 being 73.6 grains,

where historical data went almost 13 grains higher.

I knew the old published loads of 4320 were a bit hot,

but only by a few grains.

Accounting for the next 9 grains between proven working loads

and Hornady's maximum, is difficult.

Not so difficult if you realize that Jack's first rifles
were re-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum Rifles with longer throats
than the SAAMI .458 Lott that Hornady was testing.
Changing powder lots in the Lotts might be a secondary difference from the old days.
But here is how IMR-4320 shook out:

.458 Lott, 3.600" COL, 500-gr Hornady old FMJ, 62,000 psi (for MAP 62,500 psi), 73.6 grains >>> 2100 fps
.458 WinMag, 3.340" COL, 500-gr Hornady old FMJ, 59,500 psi (for MAP 60,000 psi), 73.8 grains >>> 2100 fps


Last but not least, Reloder 15 is shown with 76.6-grain

maximum load and only 2,150 fps.

Two things about this one confuse me.

First, RL-15 is usually quite close to 748 in charge weights.

Second, the load is far behind that for the .416 Remington,

a reasonably similar cartridge where RL-15 is the hands-down favorite.

How could all this be possible?

Perhaps the SAAMI MAP for the .416 Remington Magnum
allowing it 65,000 psi has some small contribution to the confusion ?

I believe we can point our fingers at a few possibilities.

First, there is the common syndrome of wildcats, even established wildcats,

being overloaded by modern scientific pressure standards.

Next, there is the probability that the Hornady pressure barrel

is not only extra, extra tight, but also may well have an

unrealistically short throat.

Is Ross Seyfried accusing SAAMI of being incompetent for the way the SAAMI .458 Lott is throated ?
He already said the Lott and Winchester barrels were "nearly identical."
Now he is suggesting tighter groove/bore in the Lott barrel ?
The small difference in twist rates is an insignificant difference.

The combination would result in excess pressure with very normal loads.

WELCOME TO THE SAAMI .458 LOTT, ROSS.
That is just Lott ballistics as usual.

Also, the cases are Hornady manufacture,

a brand that has never been used before in the Lott.

This is a big wild card, because the internal capacity

may be much different than the cases we are used to.

If Ross had checked a few cases for water capacity, easily done in a few minutes,
it would have eliminated this plausible deniability of disappointment with the .458 Lott.

Therefore as promised, I leave you

only with questions, not answers.

But, rest assured in the future

we will seek and find the ballistic truth.

In the meantime, be cautious with your new Lott.

Things may not be what they have appeared to be in the past.

Hate being so cautious with a SAAMI .458 Loot ?
(Freudian slip, I meant .458 Lott.)

Well, then get a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum and rest easy.

Hornady data for best they could do in their 24-inch pressure barrels, with 500-gr FMJ:

.458 Lott, 3.600" COL, 500-gr Hornady old FMJ, 62,000 psi (for MAP 62,500 psi), 86.8 grains W-748 >>> 2,250 fps

.458 WinMag, 3.340" COL, 500-gr Hornady old FMJ, 59,500 psi (for MAP 60,000 psi), 78.3 grains AA-2230 >>> 2200 fps

Ross Seyfried said:

In my deciphering of Jack's original design criteria,
he only wanted to produce 2150 fps.

That was with a 500-grain bullet.

A 22"-barreled SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum, with COL 3.340" and MAP 60,000 psi, will easily beat that nowadays.

Jack Lott was a family friend of Lon Paul and his father and according to Lon all Jack was after was an honest 2150 fps with a 500 gr bullet.

Interesting that Kynoch doesn’t even load a 500gr bullet in their 458 Lott. They claim 2299 FPS at the muzzle, which is probably very generous, but they use a 480gr like the 450 Nitro.

They do load a 500 in the win mag but only claim 2040. Seems they have these loads mixed up.

RIP;

Here is the full data on three loads for the 480 DGX in my #1 Ruger:

1) Win case; WLRM primer; 81 grains H335; COL= 3.56"; MV= 2280, April 17/'19; Temp. 45-50*F
2) Win case; WLRM primer; 67 grains RL-15; COL= 3.52"; MV= 1810, May 21/'19; Temp. 45*F
3) Rem case; WLRM primer; 82 grains H4895; COL= 3.585"; MV= 2353, June 11/'19; Temp. 70*F

Have not yet tried the 480gr DGX in Hor. cases. But the 3rd load is the one I'd use at longer range than 300 yards if....

Those are corrected to muzzle velocities, and 2353 fps = 5900 ft-lbs with no evidence of excess psi.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

And I want to apologize to badboymelvin for some harsh words about the article he reference from Allan Jones.

Melvin, I appreciate you and your comments very much. I was reacting to that particular article by Jones on the .458 Win, which I'd read at least a couple of months earlier, and was disappointed with Allan for such a weak presentation...

Please let me explain: I'd had correspondence with and talked with Allan Jones back in 1995 - 96 about pressures for the Ruger No.1 in .45-70, in their #12 that had been reduced from #11 because Ruger had shortened the throat on their #1 in .45-70.

I'd shared with him my loads for the #1 and he approved. Plus he gave me the pressure for several loads recorded for their 400gr in the #1 Ruger in CUP, and none were over 36,000 cup. The #12 manual was showing 56 grains of AA2015 BR at 2018 fps and 35,100 cup.

I was using 64 grains of AA2015. His words: "That would be fine". In fact, he called me back with a lot of info, so I was disappointed in such a "milk toast" presentation on the .458 Win.

But, I understand: Pro writers in magazine articles can't go outside corporate policy for fear of litigation!

But, I've had private correspondence with several that has revealed something of what they might do on their own! That's a hint...

Sorry, badboymelvin, I wasn't unhappy with you!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
480 DGX in my #1 Ruger:

1) Win case; WLRM primer; 81 grains H335; COL= 3.56"; MV= 2280, April 17/'19; Temp. 45-50*F
2) Win case; WLRM primer; 67 grains RL-15; COL= 3.52"; MV= 1810, May 21/'19; Temp. 45*F
3) Rem case; WLRM primer; 82 grains H4895; COL= 3.585"; MV= 2353, June 11/'19; Temp. 70*F

Have not yet tried the 480gr DGX in Hor. cases. But the 3rd load is the one I'd use at longer range than 300 yards if....

2353 fps = 5900 ft-lbs with no evidence of excess psi.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Hey Bob, buy a donkey for that.
I calculate 5900.6 ft-lbs for your 480-gr DGX load at 2353 fps. Rounded up you get credit for one extra foot-pound.

Aiming for 2373 fps with the 480-gr DGX: 6001.3 ft-lbs.
Rounded down to 6001 ft-lbs, that is a worthy goal.
Another 6000 foot-pounder (and shoulder pounder)
for the composite graphic, when verified.
Your H4895 looks promising.
AA-2230 also:
83.0 grains of AA-2230 with 500-gr TSX, 3.780" COL >>> 2342 fps (25" barrel) 6089 ft-lbs
84.0 grains of AA-2230 with 450-gr TSX, 3.680" COL >>> 2457 fps (25" barrel) 6032 ft-lbs

Your 3.585" COL with the 480-gr DGX (shorter than a monometal) sounds good to try for 6000 ft-lbs in the .458 Winchester Magnum.
But of course, the shorter the COL is, the easier it is to get pressures and velocities up for a given powder charge,
so I might have to use a shorter COL with the 480-gr DGX than you did.

Buy a donkey for that information, BaxterB.




.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

That’s not a compressed load?

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Jack Lott was a family friend of Lon Paul and his father and according to Lon all Jack was after was an honest 2150 fps with a 500 gr bullet.

Jack must have been in Hog Heaven when he got 2375 fps MV from a 500-grainer in a 25" barrel,
by merely re-chambering a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum with a hand reamer, to accept 2.800" brass without altering the throat.
No barrel setback or "nuthin."