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I don't recall ever mentioning scopes in my original post. A rereading of it confirms that I didn't. What I was objecting to was (is) open sights as opposed to aperture sights like receiver sights or tang sights or cocking piece sights. My favorite DG rifle has no scope on it and I never found the need for one, but looking through a hole at a target, which I have done most of my life, is a far cry from using a bead and notch. I have a scope on my .458 DR, but I would be just as happy with an aperture sight, if I found one which could be mounted on it in a way that didn't offend my aesthetic sense. | |||
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 My work is done here for now. Effectively stirred up the hornets nest momentarily ... for the mission!!!  | |||
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Just for the Mission; I digress. My most disliked phrase that permeates our discourse these days. I know what it means, because I can search and read; but why it has become the catch all for push-back, I do not. On Irons only, Whatever floats your boat I approve of. Horse hockey on "reasons" for or against. The individual Shooter is always the largest variable in the equation and as such, we should all encourage freedom every chance we get. We each could bat each others reasons at will over the fence, but let's not is my suggestion. And that is just a Passive suggestion. I leave everyone the freedom to choose; for the Mission!! "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Of course we all need a provision for a GHOST RING peep sight and a front patridge on every DGR. That is fast and accurate enough at close range and even accurate enough at longer range with care, and maybe a screw-in smaller aperture. BUT A LOW POWER SCOPE or RED DOT is even FASTER and the scope is more accurate FOR MOST HUMANS.  Rip ... | |||
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Todd, You "done good" at stirring up some mileage for THE MISSION. Keep up the good work, and we will soon be to page 461, instead of only page 181. To paraphrase a line from "Josey Wales": Doing good has no end. Rip ... | |||
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AMEN ! That is all that needs to be said about that. Now, to each his own ! In my world: A chicken in every pot ! A .458 WIN in every home ! A ghost-ring peep and patridge on every .458 WIN ! Multiple disposable scopes for every .458 WIN ! Rip ... | |||
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I will post some .458 WIN scope "pairs." Scope and re-scope like Pete and Re-Pete. BTW, anybody notice Nancy Puh-loser tear up her copy of the State of the Union speech ? She shuffled it and made funny faces over it throughout the speech, looked puzzled the whole time. I bet she can't read ! Illiterate ! That explains a lot about her. Rip ... | |||
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Yeah, looked like a confused patron at a French restaurant. Now, back to the important aspects of life... To scope or not to scope? In my humble opinion, the versatility if the .458WM has been amply demonstrated In the previous, voluminous 181 pages and in many circumstances a scoped option would prove to be quite useful and appropriate. It speaks of the universal utility of the 458 as a fully capable DG, quick action open sighted life saver while also wholly filling the role as a mild mannered plains game or deer rifle, or a far reaching long range paper puncher in the tradition of the 19th Century 450 match rifles. Dang, I think I may even be warming up to the .458WM myself! Which... Begs the question. What .458WM rifle would be the general recommendation for a newbie from the more experienced? A Ruger No.1? A Whitworth? Maybe a Model 70? | |||
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I like the Model 70 for beating a SAAMI .458 Lott via 3.6" COL limit. Very easy to convert a Connecticut Classic or Portuguese/FN M70 from 3.4" to 3.6". Make it less than 8 pounds or as heavy as you like. Lots of aftermarket stocks and bottom metal options if you want increased magazine capacity. And the CZ 550 Magnum is ready to go as a .458 WIN-V 3.8" right out of the box, after refinements and tuning needed by any factory rifle.  Plenty of excellent options. Had I only been wiser when I was doing all that wildcatting, an MRC M1999 or PH could have been set up for .458 WIN-V 3.6" like an M70, or for .458 WIN-V 3.8" like the CZ 550 Magnum. I would have had a Dakota M76 African .458 WIN-V 3.8" instead of this .423/.416 Rigby Improved Plus aka ".404 RIP":  It is seen above with scope, but it also has a Talley peep rear sight and an NECG patridge with brass insert. That is the only reason I used the Talley mounts, for that peep. Rip ... | |||
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Either xausa or Todd might be able to tolerate an ugly rifle like this if chambered for .458 WIN-V instead of some crazy wildcat:  If they objected too loudly to the worn texture-paint on the stock, I could sand it off and repaint it. But for me, those are memory rubs, caused by bouncing around in Saeed's Bakkie for nearly a month, restrained in the rack by strips of inner tube. Consider it primer.  It is amazing how shootaway is the only proponent of the SAAMI .458 Lott nowadays. Rip ... | |||
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Not ugly at all. I like a battle worn rifle as much as anyone. Maybe more. Especially one that has been modified for purpose. Cerekote, stainless, and / or texture paint on a classically designed weapon, even with synthetic stocks, makes perfect sense. It's just purpose driven make up. Now, if you start putting leather grips on a synthetic stock, or worse yet, cover the entire stock in leather, ala Blaser, THAT's what makes me wanna  . | |||
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The 458 wm is a wannabe Lott. | |||
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Yup, saw that. But it looked to me like she wanted that to be noticed! And she did look puzzled through most of it. I thought Trump did a very good job considering circumstances! I respect a man that doesn't flinch under pressure -- that kind! Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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You are still missing the point George. The SAAMI Lott is a wannabe "As Jack Built It" Lott. It ain't what you think it is in it's SAAMI guise. | |||
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Looks like you're still trying, Shootaway. Here's a suggestion that might help your situation: Start a new thread, "The .458 Winchester Magnum is better than my .458 Lott". I bet you'd get a Lott more attention! I'd even contribute to that! Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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RIP--Shootaway has a valid point. If someone gave me a choice of factory rounds in a 458 Lott vs. factory rounds with a 458wm for a hunt right then and there ---I'd take the Lott, lay something over a car bonnet/hood, find a tree at 100 yards, verify the sight-in, and go hunting. Simple.  It takes special handloading to get Lott performance out of a 458 Win Mag. Doable, absolutely. But not for everyone. And for factory rounds in a 3.4" magazine--I'd still go with a 416 Ruger, unless limited to a buffalo-only special hunt, and then I'd take the factory 458WM, maybe. I normally prefer 2400fps over 2100fps, but I really prefer 2600-2800fps. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I’ve designed a sweet grip cap big enough to hold the Talley peep. Has some other cool features too...No one wants to make it though... :-( | |||
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416Tanzan, There's a disconnect between what Shootaway is thinking and what you are suggesting. I hope you get it. As to specialized handloads for the .458 WM: what's special about it? It's by far one of the easiest cartridges to make good to excellent loads for, just like a .45-70. I've never fired a factory load in either, and if going on Safari I'd simply use what I already have in handloads. Shootaway is still trying to put down the .458 WIN in comparison to his .458 Lott when each is handloaded -- not factory loads. I wouldn't go on safari using factory ammo for either. But Finn Aagaard got 2188 fps/5314 ft-lbs firing Federal 500grs from his 23" custom barrelled .458 Win Mag. It had a short throat. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Perfect recipe for a .458 WIN. My .404 RIP finish (action, Talley bases and peep matching) might have been called "French Grey" Gunkote done by a local young gunsmith who is now a pathologist at Vanderbilt. Cerakote now has "Sniper Grey" and "SIG Grey" and etc. and etc. It did get some scratches in Tanzania. But I will not be refinishing it with "Lollypop Purple" Cerakote. The action is chrome-moly, never could find a stainless Dakota M76. Makes me think Saeed got a special run of stainless Dakota M76 for his .375/404 rifle #2, or it is nickel plated ? | |||
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Speak of the devil and he appears, ringing the doorbell and running off after leaving another empty paper bag aflame on the doorstep. Rip ... | |||
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She can't read and her dentures don't fit and her diaper was getting soggy. Do we think Congress will pass the law allowing families to sue sanctuary cities and the sanctuary state of california for damages from catch and release killers ? How ironic that the actor Clint Eastwood was born in san francisco, california. To inspire a movie like DIRTY HARRY of 1971, that city has been going to hell for a long time. I did a drive-by viewing of that city about 1986 and looking at it from the golden gate bridge I was most impressed by the crowding together on the hillsides of all those human abodes. I wondered how all that human feces was dealt with. In reality, they dump it on the streets. In fiction, DIRTY HARRY flushes it. Crowd rats together and they start buggering each other and become regisTURD in the DemocRATic POTTY and vote for Nancy Puh-loser. Rip ... | |||
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Buy a buy a donkey. We can copy replies to shootaway's thread for extra mileage at THE MISSION. Thanks for counseling 416Tanzan. Let us not give up hope on him. He surely has better "kidneys" than shootaway. Rip ... | |||
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And Hornady found the SAAMI .458 Lott could do only 2250 fps with 500-grainer (3.600" COL, 62,500 PSI, 24" barrel) while the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum did 2200 fps with same 500-grainer (3.340" COL, ONLY 60,000 PSI, 24" barrel). Yes, the throat of the .458 WIN. Accurate with every bullet and every COL and pressure relieving and case capacity increasing. Not magic, just fantastical. Easily beats a SAAMI .458 Lott when used in the same rifle with the proper chamber: SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum. Rip ... | |||
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bobmn and BaxterB, I have been through the same gyrations as you. I just carry the peep in a bag in my pants pocket. I always wear pants while hunting. I am open to any suggestions for improved carry mode like a rifle grip trap that will fit a Talley peep, or a patch box on the rifle butt like a flintlock ? Rip ... | |||
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Trump acquitted. Nancy loses again. Actually the patch box on the .404 RIP is a great idea. That is an MPI stock, only one I could find at the time for a Dakota M76 African. I personally inset a 2"-thick oak block into the butt with epoxy before I turned it over to the Gunsmith for the recoil pad installation. I painted it myself. Otherwise, the butt is a fiberglass shell filled with foam. A minimally ornate flintlock patch box could easily be fitted, to hold the Talley peep and padding. The oak block will be a fine foundation for installing the patch box. Cerakoted Sniper Grey, of course, it will be another refinement for a future .458 WIN-V 3.8". With the patch box, the rifle might need a longer barrel than the current 23" ... to balance the extra weight in the butt, and to give it more of a "longrifle" look. Maybe 25" traditional, but no "Red Ryder" nor "Original African M70" open sight on the barrel to get in the way of the peep. Hawken style:  This is a bit too much maybe:  Rip ... | |||
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Why should my bullet need to jump before reaching the rifling? My bullet starts off smooth.Mine is not a weird chamber with a long throat. | |||
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 Just working your "village idiot schtick" or serious, shootaway ? Whatever. That is droll, man. "Droll" as in adjective: amusingly odd, whimsically comical noun Archaic: a buffoon intransitive verb (drolled, drolling, drolls): to clown French: drole, from noun "buffoon," from Middle Dutch drol, "little man." adverb: drolly noun: drollness, drollery See also: Walter, Walterish, Walterable, etc. Rip ... | |||
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In the spirit of responding to a Trolling of the Mission, which we should not let stand: "Why should my bullet need to jump before reaching the rifling?" The Jump to the rifling on the 458WM contained in the magnificent design of the throat that allows superior velocity and efficiency of performance in the 2.5" case, also tends to stabilize the vagaries of wobble in some folks offhand shooting. Your mileage may vary. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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You're obviously an intelligent man of the world, Todd, and rich with it. Is it possible you're involved in extractive industries whereby it pays to deny global warming? Not only does the repeated triangulation of consilience prove in scientific terms that global warming is happening and is our fault, but real-time experience is showing that it brings dangers beyond a closer beach. The oily leaves of Australian eucalypts have always made them prone to burning and forest fires have been known throughout our history. Though there were fires every summer, until recently truly bad ones were intermittent. In my home state of Victoria we had bad fires in 1851, 1898, 1926, 1939 and 1983 but nothing terribly memorable in between. Other states had bad years, too, but often not the ones we had. But then with the rapidly rising temperatures of this century we have had shocking fire seasons in 2003, 2006, 2009 and 2015 and the worst remembered this summer season. And for the first time I can remember all states and territories have had bad fire seasons at the same time. The fires now begin in early spring and may not be over until winter. For those who see things only in terms of hunting, in our state we can hunt sambar all year - most of it even with hounds - but it's not the way it used to be. Gone are the long, cool seasons when it was easy hunting up in the hills. Now the leaves are cornflakes under your feet and the snakes are out before spring. We used to enjoy gentle showers and drizzle to cover noise and help with tracking but now, when the rain does come, you don't want to be there. Not only will you and your stuff get real wet but the creeks flood and you might be lucky to get out for days. | |||
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Sambarman, What about forgetting the “climate change” enrich Al Gore/Greta Thunberg type BS and focus on the possibility of arsonists setting many of these Eucalyptus fed fires in Oz? (Especially fires started by aggrieved imports from countries that hate the Christian West). I do not deny “climate change” as it has been reliably documented as happening over millions of years; however I simply cannot eagerly swallow the supposed Anthropogenic cause of global climate change......it seems a Socialist scam designed to bilk the West and enrich the “climate doom” industry. AND: WTF pray tell does this climate change crap have to do with discussion of .458 Winchester? Sheesh...brainwashed geenie zombies. | |||
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He is from the state of Victoria which is the absolute home of all this bullshit in Australia. Like our version of California. | |||
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 FISH ON THE LINE!!! | |||
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Yes, thank you Bob. I understand that Shootaway may not have understood what he was arguing. I simply wanted to point out that there remain situations where the Lott is a good choice, even a better choice for non-handloaders. The Lott is not a bad caliber, nor are the 450 Dakota or Rigby, but the last two are specialist calibers that call for a lot of pushback to justify themselves. Myself, I'm a dyed-in-the-wool handloader, and I'm interested in lighter carry. So someday I'll downsize to a 3.4" Ruger. (Hey, I've already got a 3.4" Ruger in .510" that does 7000-ftpounds of recoil, so I'm thinking a little over 5000 ft# would be downsizing.)
This has truly been something that shows the dark-side of people's hearts when ready to read other people's intentions in bad faith and only in bad faith. Fortunately, I listened to the State of the Union, and I heard the unsuppressed joy when the President mentioned his administration's full support of the 2nd Amendment.  That includes the WinMag and Lott, the 10mm and the 45. Even a wildcat 500 or lowly 416. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Hey, there's NOTHING lowly about the 416. The lowly moniker should be reserved for the 375. And of course, any Blaser. | |||
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