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Ray B, Quite the Old Scope Collector, eh? sambarman338 says, in his book, that the early Weatherby Imperial scopes were made by Hertel & Reuss of Germany. I do not know what DDR stands for on my scope. Your Weatherby Imperial is different in that you have the windage dial inside of/concentric to the elevation dial, and a separate dial for focus. They called that the "Weatherby Dual Dial" turret. My old Zeiss-Jena had no windage adjustment, no concentric "dual dial." I am going to call it the "Zeiss-Jena Czechoslovakian Double-Dial-Uni-turret." Maybe that is what "DDR" stands for?  Your Weatherby Imperial is a true reticle-movement scope, but sambarman338 says that those concentric reticle adjustments dials sometimes ended up getting stuck together, problematic. 6x62? Is that a 62mm objective?  Or is that the luminosity score of the scope, or both? WEATHERBY FIREARMS COMPANY IMPERIAL 6X (1953 - 1974) Magnification .................... 6X Field of view .................... 21.7 feet at 100 yards Luminosity ....................... 62 Eye relief ....................... 3.25 to 4.5 inches Length ........................... 11.5 inches Weight ........................... 12.375 ounces Tube diameter .................... 1.0 inches (Value: $300 - $550)  Rip ... | |||
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Where to start? Well, I like your thoughts on the 458WM scope, RIP. At least the East Germans didn't put elevation and windage under the same turret. And, as I've said previously, even in reticle-movement scopes it is better not to put lateral strain on a flat spring by making it cope with a second screw. H&R's 6x62 refers to power and luminosity, of course, indicating an exit pupil of almost 8mm and an objective diameter of about 47mm. And yes, short-throated barrels and finding weird cartridge cases have somehow taxed me more than mounting those old-timey telescopes. | |||
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Since it was made in East Germany, I figured DDR stood for Deutschland Democratic Republic, but maybe not. | |||
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Boomstick, instead of shortening the 458 case to create a wildcat, why not consider a standard length 458 Win mag chamber with a shorter throat as mentioned by RIP earlier. There are a couple of ways to approach this. Designed by Keith Francis JGS developed a chamber reamer which was a 458 Win Mag with a short throat. I believe the throat is somewhat similar to the throat currently fitted to the 458 Lott. PTG reportedly can supply a similar reamer. This way you can have your thumper with no need to shorten brass or custom dies. You could still chamber in a short action if you used the right action that had a longer mag box fitted (say 3.1” long). Another alternative if you don’t want to purchase a special reamer is to order a Pacnor prefit barrel. In their list of wildcat chambers is a 458 no throat reamer. That way you can throat the chamber separately to suit whatever bullet application you have in mind. A 458 with a cast friendly throat would be like a bolt action 45/90. Pacnor also offer different options for twist and number of grooves. | |||
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East Germany, Behind the Berlin Wall, calling themselves "Democratic" just like the "Democratic Party" here in the USA! Ha! I am watching the Kavanaugh hearings now, as I type this during a recess. Build the wall and then deport all the Democrats. That will make America great again. Rip ... | |||
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PAC-NOR: 458 Rifle (.458") 3 groove 13" 14" 6 groove 8" 8 groove 10" 14" 15" 18" 20" 22" 26" McGowen:  458 Caliber Bore .450″ | Groove .458″ Twists Available 1-8″ (8 Groove) 1-10″ (8 Groove) 1-14″ (6 & 8 Groove) 1-16″ (8 Groove) 1-18″ (8 Groove) 1-22″ (8 Groove) 1-24″ (6 Groove) Available Cartridges 458 Winchester Magnum, 458 Lott, 458 SOCOM, 45-70, 450 Alaskan (Johnson Version) Shilen: .458 - 14" for all bullets Douglas: 458/45-70 ..... 0.450" bore/0.458" groove diameter, 8-groove, 14" TO 22" twist ..... 458 Win., 458-2 American, 45-70, 458 Lott, 450 Marlin | |||
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From the CLASSIC issues of GUNS Magazine available online as pdf files, here is the cover of the first ever Annual Safari Edition, January 1963, the final year of production of the "African": https://gunsmagazine.com/class...s-magazine-editions/  Gun porn with redeeming social value continues on page 80, for THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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Behold the premier safari rifle of all time, putting the squash to all the extended-pinky-finger panache: M70 African  | |||
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 By 1963 the .458 WIN was putting Safari within the reach of many more professional small boys. $310 for a Winchester Model 70 African in 1963. $2300 for a 21-day Ugandan safari. That is way better than a feathery plume on your pith helmet. To heck with "panache." What ache? Rip ... | |||
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Great pics man!!! Klineberger, and I think I see Brian Herne and Nicky Blunt in that pic. Awesome! | |||
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Which one is Brian Herne, BaxterB? Is that him, second from the right? In case anyone is wondering, I don't think you're allowed to hunt brush turkeys here any more - but by the numbers I saw in Queensland last year, maybe we should be able to. | |||
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Yes, that is the one I think is Brian. | |||
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I watched only a part of the hearings, but did see some highlights. I have to agree with Alan Dershowitz, the prosecutor they hired from California to question the accuser was either incompetent or disinterested. an attorney skilled in cross-examination could have gained sufficient clarity to show one way or the other regarding the accusers claims. I'll stop with that because anything further would be considered siding with one side or the other and would belong in the political section. congratulations on page 80. that's interesting that a safari was so reasonably priced in 1963. I recall 1963 was before Idi Amin started making life a problem for foreigners and citizens alike. | |||
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BaxterB, Thank you for supporting THE MISSION. Brian Herne did write about Nicky Blunt in the Uganda chapter of WHITE HUNTERS. Is that Blunt next to Herne, far right? Finn Aagaard mentioned Blunt, in "Make Mine Mauser" (American Rifleman circa 1985), said he filed a thumb slot in the side of a Winchester M70 action. Must have been a .458 WIN, eh? Rip ... | |||
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sambarman338, You can read 5 pages on turkey hunting in Oz, GUNS January 1963, here: https://gunsmagazine.com/class...s-magazine-editions/ Other gems related to the .458 WIN as well as old scopes are to be found there too. Rip ... | |||
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Ray B, Ms. Rachel the Incompetent was from Arizona, IIRC. She was BAD indeed! The dirty-donkey-Democrats shall reap the whirlwind. Rip ... | |||
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X 2 !! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Yes, I *belive* that is him. There is a pic of Nicky in Herne’s Uganda Safaris book. Herne was a 458 guy as well, BTW. | |||
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If we run out of replies we can continue where we left off with listing all the famous users of the .458 WIN, including Richard Harlan, Ron Thomson, Brian Herne, Nicky Blunt, Finn Aagaard, Phil Shoemaker, Harry Selby, Joe Coogan, Elmer Keith, Charlie Askins ... Speaking of the devil, see Askin's Viet Nam safari below.  | |||
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Last gasp of the B&L Adjustable Mounts?  | |||
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No. They lasted at least another month, with the two-page spread dwindling to a full one-page ad:  | |||
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Looking at ebay parts offered for sale, I have concluded that the B&L mounts have no place on a .458 WIN. A reticle-movement scope with only vertical adjustment internally, and a windage-adjustable mount makes a lot of sense to me still. Back to the drawing board, and making do with what we got. Rip ... | |||
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Putting panache to rest started in 1956. The .458 WIN has more than panache, it is a panacea to panache. It will limber up the stiff pinky fingers nicely. An excellent form of safari practice with the .458 WIN could involve setting a feathery-plumed pith helmet on the ground at 100 yards, and shooting the panache off of the helmet, from shooting sticks. When you can clip the panache off the helmet with your first shot, you are ready. Earliest use of the .458 WIN that I have found documented in the journals so far:  | |||
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The Howdah .458 WIN:  "Top: Riding elephants provide best jungle transportation." Photo below that: "A Moi tracker holds author's .358 Savage with Weaver IX shotgun scope." I cannot find that Weaver in Stroebel, but I know it must be a good one, as it has got to be a reticle-movement scope. Good ol' Charlie Askins. Rip ... | |||
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         Above are a few mounts previously discussed, and 1 or 2 that aren't. the order got a little mixed in application but they are, top to bottom: 1,2 Leupold 7/8" tube Pioneer scope with Adjust-O Mount/Rings. 3 is a side mount of German mfg, with windage adjustment. 4,7 B&L old style mount with Balfor 4x on MS 1903. 5,6 Buehler adjustable mount and rings, both windage and elevation. when set it is a very secure mount. 8,9 Redfield windage adjustable mount & rings with Zeiss Zeilvier 4x on Rem 30S. | |||
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Ray B, You could have supported THE MISSION more numerously by putting each picture in a separate reply.  Great stuff, and you have a wealth of it. This one is pristine, mount and scope, and pains being taken not to mar the scope?: What make of 4X scope is that, please? Is there internal windage adjustment in the scope too? Interesting to see how the scopes and mounts evolved. It was rare to see a scope on a .458 WIN in the 50's and 60's. Somehow, it is now possible to scope a .458 WIN. Rip ... | |||
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Watson Yoshimoto is third from left. He is a former Weatherby award winner and was a heck of a nice guy. He booked many hunts through Klineburgers way back when. In some book I have all the people in the photo are named. I'll see if I can find it. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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It's a Kollmorgen Bear Cub; made in Northampton, Mass in the mid-50s. The tube is 26mm and the rings were supposed to be 26mm but the fit was such that the scope would slide during recoil, so some Teflon plumbers tape was applied to shim it tight, which has the side benefit of preventing scratches. | |||
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I agree, RIP, that the B&L plunger mount may not have been great on a 458WM - the cones were too close together and had too little bearing area. However, I think an improvement of the daisy-wheel version such as shown on page 105 of the book would cut the mustard. In hindsight, I would do as B&L did with the daisy-wheel patent and also replace the rear, elevation cones with an angular cradle riding on a threaded spindle (one side with l/h thread, the other r/h, to make the bearers move in opposite directions). For those unable to see the drawing, it shows an evolved B&L daisy-wheel-type mount with the distance between cradle bearers extended. In order to increase the strength, the 'daisy-wheel' is converted to an elongated piece of steel that doubles as a second leaf for the 'cart-spring' when tightened. Thanks for the pics, Ray B. I like the distance between rings on the Leupold Adjust-O Mount. Did it work well? | |||
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AH HA! Kollmorgen! I thought it had a Redfield look about it ... From Sam's book, seems to be they beat Weaver to a patent on their system of image-movement, but with reticle in FFP, Weaver's was in SFP. Page 15 of LIGHT AT THE START OF THE TUNNEL: "The new system worked not by moving the reticle when adjusting zero but moving the field of view in front of it. In this way the reticle always appeared to be in the centre. Two months later Ernst Kollmorgen et al filed what would be US patent 2,955,512, (a continuation-in-part of an application filed a year to the day before Weaver's) and assigned it to Redfield. Kollmorgen's patent tensioned the erector tube with a heavy coil spring and shows the reticle in the first focal-plane. I am not sure if this design was actually used then but rear coil springs and image-movement with the 'FFP' reticle anticipated state-of-the-art Austrian scopes now." And it goes on and on, fascinating reading on the timeline of scope evolution. We need a timeline chart from Isaac Newton to present for the second edition of the book, eh sambarman338? Stroebel has a couple of pages on "Kollmorgan" (pp. 352-354) but misspells the name despite reproducing a 1958 advertisement with the proper spelling, "Kollmorgen": "KOLLMORGAN OPTICAL COMPANY In 1956 the Kollmorgan Optical Company of Northampton, Massachusetts began marketing scopes under their own name. Previous to that time they had been producing the Bear Cub line of scopes for the M.L. Stith Company. These Kollmorgan branded scopes were available only from 1956 until 1959, when the Redfield Gunsight Company purchased Kollmorgan, and began marketing their scopes under the Redfield label. All the Kollmorgan scopes featured constantly centered reticles, weatherproofed lens systems, and windage and elevation settings that were adjustable to zero." KOLLMORGAN BEAR CUB 4X (1956-1959) Magnification .................... 4X Field of view .................... 31.0 feet at 100 yards Luminosity ....................... 76.7 Eye relief ....................... 3.25 to 4.5 inches Length ....................... 11.375 inches Weight ....................... 9.75 ounces Tube diameter .................... 26mm (Value: $175 - $275) Rip ... | |||
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From page 477 of Stroebel, about Stith scopes (1950-1956): The Master Series had no internal adjustments and was designed to be used with Stith's popular "Master Mount" windage and elevation adjustable mounting systems. The Double had internal windage and elevation adjustments and used conventional ring style mounts. The original Bear Cub scopes had elevation only internal adjustments, and were designed to be used with Stith's "Streamline" windage adjustable mounting system. Stith's Bear Cub 2.75X De Luxe in a Streamline mount would be the sort of system that Bubba Gunwerkes would like to create for the .458 WIN, only better. Rip ... | |||
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"Stith Mount - A brand of scope mount from San Antonio, Texas, noted for utilizing a rifle's existing slots and holes; requiring no new holes to be drilled or tapped. Popular during the earlier days of effective telescopic sights when rifles were not normally factory drilled and tapped, both to save gunsmithing work and to avoid alterations to futurly-collectible rifles. The front mount normally consisted of a sleeve around the forward portion of the scope tube connected to a dovetail inserted into the rifle's front sight slot, and a rear mount that screwed into the factory pre-drilled receiver sight mounting holes." From: http://www.hallowellco.com/sti...20-%20definition.htm  | |||
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 Notice how I got more replies by putting each picture in a separate reply. Sometimes I get carried away and forget that trick. It is a good method for supporting THE MISSION. Rip ... | |||
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Front base on the receiver ring makes more sense, for sure. Just a simple Redfield Junior mount set that has been 8x40-ed&J-B-Welded to rifle action would do nicely. Windage adjustable in the mount. J-B-Weld all but one of the two windage screws in the rear mount when it is zeroed. There it stays until the scope dies. Quick detach only if the scope dies. QD is to be done only when the scope dies. Have backup iron sights only for use when scope dies in the field, until scope can be replaced. A 1X scope is always better than any iron sight. Scope never comes off the rifle until the scope dies. All I need now is the scope with vertical internal adjustment only, reticle-movement. But lacking that, I'll just have to stick to the image-movement, double-internal-adjustment scopes we are all plagued with today. Use J-B-Welded Picatinny and cross-slot rings, or Ruger&CZ integral bases with OEM rings to fit. Have a second scope pre-zeroed to replace the first when it dies. No iron sights needed. Just point and shoot if you have to, until you can get the other scope on the rifle. Yes! I finally got it settled. I am stuck with it. Ten of the three-hundred dollar scopes are much more useful than one of the three-thousand dollar scopes. Rip ... | |||
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Much as I like a good, wide spacing of mounts, the Stith system may have taken it a fraction far, though I realised location of the rear sight node dictated the distance. A smack towards the front of the scope may have caused more movement than with a stout mount coming straight up from the barrel reinforce or front receiver ring. I've gotta say, RIP, I admire your concern with scopes and ideas on how to make mountings stronger. Were it not for the realities of the market, I'd suggest you write your own book on the matter, including the great pictures. Many in our fraternity will spend hours and much money on tuning rifles and handloads but their eyes glaze over when it comes to scopes. Beyond size, gadgets and brand cachet, they swallow whatever the makers and mercenary reviewers tell them. | |||
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Sam, Your book has shone the light, and the cockroaches of ignorance have scurried away from my mind on the subject of rifle scopes. Thank you. Rip ... | |||
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See xausa's successful use of the .458 WIN on elephant, copied below. I am going to guess this is from the 1970's, before the Munitions-Industrial-Complex began to undermine the .458 WIN, for the sake of their own bottom line. Sales of all other rifles and ammunition were at risk due to the incredible success of the .458 WIN, which was taking over the world. Like a bunch of dirty-donkey Democrats smearing a SCOTUS candidate, all kinds of dung has been flung at the .458 WIN. I fell for it too, in the mid 1980's, leading to abandonment of the .458 WIN for the next big bore whore coming along, one after the other, seemingly endless in number. If only I had just stuck with the .458 WIN!  It's never too late to jump on the wagon, and stay on the road of righteousness.
xausa, Thanks for the reply. Glory days indeed!  But all those with feathery plumes atop their pith helmets, and with their pinky fingers surgically fused in full extension, will complain to no end that you were merely lucky to survive that hunt using a .458 WIN. And to profane a double rifle with such a cartridge, and an O/U to boot. Sacrilege!  Rip ... | |||
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