Bob,

Co-author that thing?
Your .458 WIN Loading Manual needs to be re-published.

Rip ...

If Woodleigh gets the bonding sorted out on the .458/550-grain Weldcore RNSP, it would be interesting in the .458 WIN LongCOL and the .45-100 SWT.
Or, use the .458/550-grain FMJ Woodleigh "solid" as a backup for the 544-grain FNGC.



About 2150 fps like the 544-grain FNGC, with AA-2460 might be "Tropical" enough for any gentleman.
Even if the bonding does not hold together, as in the one example I have read of here (by member tarbe),
that spectacular failure resulted in a one-shot cape buffalo kill within 10 seconds of the shot.
At 1400 fps MV, F. C. Selous and Matthew Quigley both might have been happy to have the gilding metal patch replacing their paper patches,
on their 540-550-grainers.

Recall that the .45-100 SWT is identical to the "45-70 Elko Magnum" that was CIP homologated July 28, 1992 and revised May 5, 2015,
thanks to Dr. Lauren Kortz of Elko Arms, Belgium.
It has 2.6" brass and 0*29'30" leade semi-angle,
throated identically to the SAAMI .458 WIN.
I have independently re-created the wheel, again!

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
The Woodleigh Hydros might work well with the long throat and the CZ magazine. I've had trouble with them in lesser calibres where either the throat or the action length meant they took up too much powder space.

Paul,
Using your method of ruler and calculator on image of bullet, and Woodleigh report that the .458/480-gr HSS brass solid is 1.466" long,



I figure that crimping on the middle of 5 cannelures will give a COL with 2.5" brass of 3.567".
That will be enough to beat a SAAMI .458 Lott.
I have also ordered a Woodleigh reloading manual.

Rip ...

Though normally a little out of the conversation, RIP, your posts in this chapter have great interest for me.

So, in the interests of The Mission, I'll start at the top:

Glad to hear you can make it work for you ...

Yes, that CZ peep sight really is a beauty (JFE showed it to me at the range the other day, and I had a shot using it).

I have not found the plastic tips inclined to fall off the Hydros but I have prised them off because they added to the COL in my 375 Win 94.

I suggested to Geoff McDonald that he make a hybrid bullet by drilling a hole in a short Hydro and filling it with lead but, at that point, he seemed to lose interest in corresponding with me.

I'd certainly buy a book, RIP, knowing it to be the good oil.

My only suggetions are:

don't pee in the soup of existing makers who advertise in magazines - or it won't get reviewed;

and make sure your publisher is safe to land stocks in the countries you want to target.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

quote:

Originally posted by JFE:
... I will order a couple of replacement front sights as my aging eyes are having difficulty picking up the factory fitted fine bead. For those interested alternatives are available from NECG.

What sort of front sights are you thinking of, JFE? I know beads are de rigueur for express sights but peeps allow you a bit more choice.

You might recall my telling of the buffalo I was directed to shoot, so distant the 1/10th-inch bead covered three-quarters of it; though my rifle shoots high even when taking the finest bead, the nature of beads suggests the impact should be within the centre of the circle, so my shot still went a little high.

With fat, square posts you can centre the target above the flat top, without lateral sun glint distorting your concept of centre. I'm not against the sight catching light, though, so file my posts off at 45 degrees if I can't find a store-bought sourdough. If you keep that angle shiny, it works nearly as well.

I guess NECG's patridge sights would be nearly as good.

I’m going to order one with the 3/32” red insert as well as a partridge front sight. I am used to both types of front sight and probably feel marginally more at home using a bead on a rifle.

RIP - I bought my BRNO aperture sight off a guy on Gunbroker years ago and had it fitted locally.

I can tell you not many gunsmiths wanted to touch the job of retro fitting the aperture sight. It’s a pretty tricky bit of machining to get right, especially with no instructions!

FYI AHR can do that work as I had enquired of them at the time when I was having trouble finding someone to do the job. Fortunately I eventually found a competent gunsmith locally that I could trust and he did the job really well. It looks like a factory installation.

Good to know about finding the peep and having a GUNSMITH install it. I shall take that under advisement and use the NECG until accomplished.

Woodleigh has some other neat bullets for THE MISSION.
Geoff did good on a 480-grain RNSP dedicated to the .458 WIN as well as one for the 450 NE.
Looks like the two have different ogives,
and different seating depth by cannelure distance from base.

The .458 WIN has shorter length of bullet overall, yet longer and fatter nose to fill the throat, and less intrusion on case capacity:



Yep, Geoff did good.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I have not found the plastic tips inclined to fall off the Hydros but I have prised them off because they added to the COL in my 375 Win 94.

I wonder how they say on at all, given the shape of the nipple on the end of the Hydrostatically Stabilized Solids?
Glued on?
Like pasties covering nipples?

I suggested to Geoff McDonald that he make a hybrid bullet by drilling a hole in a short Hydro and filling it with lead but, at that point, he seemed to lose interest in corresponding with me.

Paul,

Seems that you wanted a Hydrostatically Stabilized Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid.
"Woodleigh Bullets Hydrostatically Stabilized Jackhammer Solid."

Thanks for the excellent work on the multiple-replies tactic, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

fI am thinking the 400-grain Protected Point from Woodleigh for the .458 WIN might be pretty nifty too.
Michael458, "Doc M," found them to be pretty darn good in his test media and large plains game, using a .458 Lott.
A review at MidwayUSA:

Submitted 10 years ago

By Michael

From Conway, SC

"I recently tested this bullet in my 458 win mags and 458 Lott. Running at 2500 fps in the Lott this bullet makes a tremendous impact on large soft skinned animals. I developed the load as a new lion load in the 458 Win Mag at 2300 fps, but used it in the 458 Lott for Kudu in Oct 2002. Effects were tremendous. This bullet holds together at these velocities and but might expand a bit much for heavy game such as Cape Buffalo, reducing penetration."



I know that the 400-gr GSC HV does 2500 fps in the .458 WIN LongCOL, and just barely longCOL at that: 3.395" IIRC.

The gilding metal jacket on the 400-gr PP should accept a second cannelure quite nicely.

No issues with a bad batch of bonding 10 years ago!

Maybe the .458-cal/550-grain bullet's SD of 0.375 is just a bit much for any bonding process?

Rip ...

Another great combo from Woodleigh for the .458 WIN, the 400-gr Weldcore-PP plus the 400-gr Hydrostatically Stabilized Solid:



Bullet length is 1.239" for the .458/400-grain HSS.
For the .458/400-gr Wc-PP it is 1.152".

A "Tropical" combo with both of these might be 2400 fps instead of 2500 fps.

For the 400-gr WC-PP, Geoff recommends no more than 2400 fps impact velocity, and no less than 1900 fps impact velocity.
BC = 0.340
It is a tough little bullet.

For the 400-gr HSS: No wories, mate.
That bullet is built like a brick dunnie.
And who cares what the BC of that one is?
Being short makes it more stable in straight penetration,
compensating for lack of mass.
We have another elephant brainer to go with the large-varmint bullet.
Great combo.
So many bullets, so little time.

Rip ...

Townie's take on hunting rifle sights is perfect for the .458 WIN:

Thanks RIP, I enjoyed your Whelen reproduction. I have a couple of books by him and find his words dependable. Recently I discovered that the Australian Outdoors magazine bought the rights to use his reloading wisdom and published it in a book edited and contributed to by the Colin Shadbolt whose scope outlook I reprised and who owned that BSA 458WM ye wot of.

I love the flat top squares. I love the sourdoughs. Nearly impossible to fine them today fitting the standard 3/8’s dovetail.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Bob,

Co-author that thing?
Your .458 WIN Loading Manual needs to be re-published.

Rip ...

RIP,

I might agree to write a Preface (?)

I do agree to re-publishing the .458 loading manual after completing some tests. But right now I have to resolve a critical problem. Hairline cracks have developed in the stock of the Ruger Tropical. I had previously been warned that might happen in using a Lead Sled. I should have paid more serious attention to that advise!

So using the .458 for an upcoming bear/wolf hunt is on hold using that rifle. But still hoping to invest a few days in that activity sometime between now and the 15th November (last day of bear season), or December 31 (last day of wolf season). Will not likely be doing anything in regard to hunting activities, however, before the end of this month.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks RIP, I enjoyed your Whelen reproduction. I have a couple of books by him and find his words dependable. Recently I discovered that the Australian Outdoors magazine bought the rights to use his reloading wisdom and published it in a book edited and contributed to by the Colin Shadbolt whose scope outlook I reprised and who owned that BSA 458WM ye wot of.

AH HA! Ye have been influenced by Col. Whelen. Your kin of sights is good as his.

In that 1952 GUN DIGEST the blurbs on "Contributors" pp. (220-221) said of Col. Whelen:
"Col. TOWNSEND WHELEN
The dean of firearms writers and editors, Colonel Whelen is the author of many valuable books, notably,
The Hunting Rifle and Small Arms Ballistics and Design.
His latest volume, Why Not Load Your Own,
is the least expensive and most practical book on handloading available.
An active participant in the Bench Rest Shooters' Association since its inception,
he served as its first Vice President and is at present editor of the BRSA Yearbooks."

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
I love the flat top squares. I love the sourdoughs. Nearly impossible to fine them today fitting the standard 3/8’s dovetail.

Fury01,

I feel your pain.
The .458 Winchester Magnum Flanged lead slinger under construction has this type front sight:



The antique Hawken and Sharps front blades might be better:



Or my all-time favorite, a Beech folding two-fer:



But, yes, it has a scope base too, for lead bullet accuracy assessment with my aged eyes.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
... But right now I have to resolve a critical problem. Hairline cracks have developed in the stock of the Ruger Tropical. I had previously been warned that might happen in using a Lead Sled. I should have paid more serious attention to that advise!
Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Well heck!
You can probably repair that stock for a spare, maybe develop some high-tech Selous Side Plates for it.
To get you back up and running sooner, is there any problem with me mailing a replacement piece of walnut to you?
What with customs between USA and Canada?
I have one off of a .416 Rigby Ruger No.1 Tropical that I will gladly contribute to support THE MISSION.
What do you think? I will send you a PM to discuss.

Rip ...

What is The Best Big-Game Rifle ? — P1
from Bob's blog, of August 30, 2019:
www.bigbores.ca

My choice for African DG would be a bolt-action .458 Winchester Magnum, and my 9.3 x 62 for plains game. Both shooting handloads.

For Cape buffalo it would be either the 450gr Barnes TSX or the 450gr Swift AF at 2400 fps from a 24″- 25″ barrel, seated long in the case. Using modern powders (reformulated) such as H4895, H335 and AA2230, such bullet speeds at the muzzle are possible. For a solid, Barnes makes a 450gr and Hornady a 480gr. Why not a 500? Good question. I could go either way, but the 450s are about 100 fps faster while generating less recoil. That’s a bit of hair-splitting, I know. 2400 fps from a 450gr is making 5755 ft-lbs at the muzzle. That’s some reserve over the traditional standard of 5000 ft-lbs for African DG of the largest/toughest sort.

Yeah, I too believe there’s more to it than that — nevertheless, it might resolve any doubts as long as the bullet and shooter are equal to the task at hand.

Pirated for THE MISSION, sound advice.
This is fun but we don't want to take forever to get to 461 pages.

Rip ...

Sounds like a plan, RIP. That would be greatly appreciated. I don't think Customs would be a problem on this end. It would be a matter of how it's declared on your end.

That would resolve the issue for sure. Glad to compensate.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
That is good. Go to your PM, please,
to discuss mailing.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
What is The Best Big-Game Rifle ? — P1
from Bob's blog, of August 30, 2019:
www.bigbores.ca

[b]My choice for African DG would be a bolt-action .458 Winchester Magnum, and my 9.3 x 62 for plains game. Both shooting handloads.


Rip ...

My choice is the 500NE paired with a 9.3x74R. Both in doubles. The 500 shooting 570gr TSX and 570gr CEB BBW#13 solids. the 9.3 shooting 286 gr CEB BBW#13 solids and the 255gr CEB Safari Raptors. That little 9.3 not being limited to non-dangerous game as I took a large male lion with it and that bullet in Zim back in 2012. Devastating it was!!!

In fact, I've taken that combo a couple of times now and it's my preferred African set up. The 9.3 being scoped with a quick detach that returns to perfect zero.

No need for a scope on anything over 375 as the entire point is to get up close and personal!!!

Count this one for the mission.

RIP;

New PMs sent.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Todd,
Mighty gallant of you to fly the occasional sortie for THE MISSION.
The more often the more better for THE MISSION, I always say.
And there is more than one way to skin a cat, OK, I get it.
And sometimes less is more, since I am on a cliche kick.
That means some of us could make a .458 WIN do it all.
I dream of a 9-pound, field-ready .458 WIN LongCOL-3.6", scoped and loaded,
and a 6.5-pound, unloaded, iron-sighted Remington/Baikal "Spartan" SxS double rechambered
from .45-70 Gov. to .45-100 SWT aka the .458 Win.Mag.Flanged.
That spartan will weigh about 6.75 pounds with two cartridges in the chambers.
I might want to shoot reduced loads in that one,
until I can find a heavier .45-70 Gov. DR to rechamber for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Well I respectively suggest that any .458 load that has a muzzle velocity of 2100 FPS is compacted by 6 to as much as 12% or perhaps more. So exactly what does HOrnady have to say about the specific "Load Density" of your loads.

Truly the 458 Win. is not, and never has been an efficient caliber..Will it kill an elephant, of course it will, and its a do-able round but lets not call it something its not and never will be..Lets just call it a pretty good round when handloaded, but in the heat of Africa it has has some problems, and its always been held in suspicion by some and not others. All I can say is don't load it too hot and don't leave on the hood of your bakie..

Other than that we will probably have to agree to disagree..

I hate to disagree with your long, hard experience, Ray, but from a point of cartridge size, powder burned and usability in short, reliable actions, I would contend that the 458WM is an efficient cartridge, notwithstanding the problems you cite.

As you say, handloading makes it much better and I think that this should aim to emulate the ballistics of the old British double rifles.

From years of shooting big bags of driven pheasants and grouse, the Brits evolved concepts of what loads/velocities were needed for the game hunted and what the human body could generally tolerate in terms of gun mass and recoil.

It would seem they decided a 480-grain bullet, even in calibres slightly larger than 458, driven at 2150fps, was enough for most dangerous-game shooting, with recoil tolerable to most big-game hunters if the rifle was heavy enough.

So, if the stubby, short-COL 458WM can be loaded to those ballistics without risk of powder compaction, it makes a very efficient round for use in 98 Mausers or M70 Winchesters of moderate mass, even if you need a masochist to sight it in for you.

Paul,
I am sure Atkinson regrets his prior remarks.
Even old dogs learn new tricks. I would have left that sleeping dog under the porch,
but giving it a kick is indeed good for THE MISSION.
Thanks.
You are absolutely correct.
I am on a sane kick (for a while) going for .458/480-grainers at 3.340" COL, low pressure, and 2150 to 2200 fps.
The original .450 NE needed 28" barrels with Cordite to do 2150 fps with 480-grainers.
My only question on load development is how short the .458 WIN barrel can be to accomplish the objective? 20 inches?

Rip ...

To continue the book review of THE GUN DIGEST 6th edition-1952, here is an historic excerpt (pages 172- 177)
Winchester's "Forgotten" Cartridges, 1866-1900 by Paul Foster.
If you cannot read through the Winchester logo obscuring the print,
HOLD YOUR HORSES until I get some detail/magnified views to follow the whole page scans:
(Edit) Might be best to start here and continue on below:





Might be easier to read through the Winchester Horseman logo with these:

There is much in that article regarding the evolution of the greatest hunting cartridge ever, the .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM.
Detail views follow (on the next page) to highlight some salient points, for THE MISSION.
If we keep up this pace, it will take only two more years to complete THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Within the same year as patent of the .46 O. F. Winchester, 1867, a solid, one-piece, drawn brass case was being made for it.

Oliver F. Winchester lived from 1810 to 1890.
He started work on the .458 Winchester Magnum, circa 1866.
He may have been inspired by the U.S. Experimental rimfires of .45-.46 caliber with 500-grain bullet, circa 1864, late in the Civil War,
and Dr. Maynard's ".46 Rimless" of 1846, according to date by Hoyem, typo?
That would pre-date even Joseph Whitworth's muzzle loader experiments defining the .45-bore/530-grain rifle of 1:20" twist.
Maynard's patent date for that ".46 Rimless" rifle cartridge was in 1856, also documented in Hoyem.

The belted brass case was done in the USA first, by Winchester, with the .30 Belted in 1893.
A belted steel .41-Roper Rifle case (by Sylvester Roper of USA in 1866) is the earliest belted case known.
But how about Winchester doing the first rimless rifle cartridge in 1872, the .45 Dupee!

Rip ...

Prior to the 458 Winchester was there any wildcat that was similar, that is, 2.5" belted case and 458 bullets.

The 270 Wby was Roy's first cab off the rank and of course much earlier was the 275 H&H, so people had been playing with a 2.5" version of H&H belted case well before the 458.

Obviously someone, somewhere, cut the 375 back and blew it out and necked it up bt was there a wildcat with a name. It would seem a logical wilcat would have been a 2.5" version of the 450 Ackley Improved, so like a 458 Winchester Improved.

Why was the 458 Winchester given such a long freebore? Was it to match a powder Winchester wanted to use. I think I read somewhere (many many many years ago ) that it was to reduce recoil.