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Wow, I knew it was big . I didn't know it was THAT Big. !! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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BaxterB, thanks for pointing that out. Without subtitles I'm lost. Even with $6000 worth of hearing aids stuck in my ears I'm not the life of the party anymore. Good thing I can read, eh? Yeah, Ron, I would call em "gun ears". All the aforementioned symptoms fit.... | |||
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Unfortunately in today's world too few people have the kind of experience as both gun crank and hunter to write some of the interesting stories like some of these guys did. Phil Shoemaker being a notable exception. I have very much enjoyed the pieces you have written.  Without forums like this much of these old articles would likely never again see the light of day. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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The Barnes Reloading Manual Number 3, of 2001 was a great one. The Number 4 book shrunk some, and one of the things it lost was the .458/400-grain X-Bullet that Phil Shoemaker was very fond of. I lament the loss of that bullet but will find a way to replace it, hopefully.  Barnes Number three provides great info for loading the .458 Winchester Magnum Longclaw 3.6". A combining of the .458 WinMag blurb page, by Phil, with the .458 Lott load data, is presented below, in the form of excerpts of "Number 3" for book review purposes. Book review: Great book. Anything the .458 Lott can do, the .458 WinMag Longclaw can do better:          Bob Mitchell used this manual data to guide his loading of the .458 WinMag in a CZ 550 Magnum with 25"-long barrel. He got a corrected MV of 2760 fps with the 350-grain TSX crimped on the third/last groove of the bullet (less than 3.6" COL). He used only 80.0 grains of H4198. The max load with the older, single-cannelured, 350-grain XFB, is 82.0 grains of H4198, giving 2732 fps in a 26" barrel. Suggesting once again the ballistic superiority of the .458 WinMag Longclaw 3.6" over the .458 Lott!  Barnes Number 3 is a great starting place for the .458 WinMag Longclaw 3.6". Use the .458 Lott starting loads and work up. And it does not even include AA-2230! Nor Phil's AA-2200!  Even Chimera WinCzechster can chamber and eject loaded rounds up to 3.6" COL. I am thinking the barrel on the Extreme Weather .458 Winchester Magnum Longclaw 3.6-Inch might need to be 26" long, just because.  Rip . | |||
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@ Phil Shoemaker: My favorite quote from Phil Shoemaker in BARNES RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER 3 is found on page 715: "In my extensive tests, the 400-grain X-Bullet ahead of 80 grains of Accurate 2200 outpenetrates every other softpointed bullet in every other caliber by a large margin, while exhibiting perfect expansion." Phil, What velocity were you getting with that load, Phil? Barrel length? Glad you liked seeing the Jack Lott piece again. Me too. Rip . | |||
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Backtracking to cast bullets, here is the Lyman 457125 "Government" bullet. It might be 500 grains in Lyman #2 Alloy, but it is 486 grains in my Linotype. The bore-riding nose section is .450" diameter, and the full-bearing surfaces of bullet are .461" diameter as-cast in Linotype. Bullet length is 1.328" I cast 117 of them before getting big-bored and stopping. Kept the pot about 660 degrees F while casting.  I set aside 100 of the prettiest, and powder-coated 17 of them:  Minor screw-up: Aluminum foil sticks to the powder coat if the bullets are baked on a Pyrex plate covered with dry foil. I won't do that again. Some of my bullets have aluminum foil gas checks.   The minor boo-boo of mine should not interfere with my initial trial at making round holes in paper with these. Rip . | |||
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Just trim the aluminum around the base of the bullet. Gas check! (You can't fix stupid) Falls of Rough Ky University Our victory cry is FORK U! | |||
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Some may dismiss the .458 WinMag 3.6", thinking why not just do a .458 Lott if you have a 3.6" box? Even the 3.4"-box length allows one to single-shot load the 3.6" COL ammo. I am certainly going to do that, and who knows, I might end up dismissing the .458 WinMag with 3.6" box also. Woodelle Whitworth, Chimera WinCzechster, and even my Winchester M70 Super Grade Safari Rifle all do just fine with that. They chamber and eject a loaded/unfired 3.6" cartridge while keeping 3 cartridges of 3.4" COL in the box. Thus, you have two rifles in one. Both a single-shot and a magazine-repeater. My favorite kind of double rifle! After I get these powder-coated cast bullets sorted out for my .458 WinMag "double rifles," I am going to start with the varmint bullets and work my way up the jacketed-bullet ladder, just for kicks. From 300-grainers to 600-grainers.    Rip . | |||
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Yep, one way to deal with a screw-up. Like I meant to do it on purpose. Rip . | |||
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Real nice looking casting job RIP . Are you using an electric pot , bottom pour , dipper or a gas fired pot. ?? Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Thanks, CTF. I use a 20-pound Lyman "MAG 20" electric pot and a Lyman "Lead Dipper." It has bottom-pour capability but I just don't do as well with that as I do with the dipper. The thermostat dial on that pot goes from zero to 10, seems to work well enough, keeping it set on about 7, with an RCBS lead thermometer in the pot to monitor it. 4 of the first 44 I cast looked so bad they went back into the pot, less reject rate after that. I drop them from the mould into a 5-gallon bucket of water. Now ain't a .458/600-grainer at 2100 fps a force to be reckoned with?  I might just waffle back to the .458 WinMag Longclaw 3.8-Inch: More powerful than a .458 Lott 3.6" FOR SURE!  Rip . | |||
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A silicone baking sheet works great. The hemostat with vinyl tape on the jaws is not so great for picking the bullets out of the shaker, makes bare spots on the bullet noses. No matter for function though, just appearance. I am thinking of trying gloved fingers instead, dusted with powder, wondering how that would work? 20 more pigs with lipstick:  Just a couple of dummies, bullets have not been sized down to .460", but they chamber just fine. Any paint left on the silicone is easily scrubbed off. You can scratch it off with a fingernail. The silicone sheet leaves a nice texture on the bottoms of the bullets:  Bare Linotype: 0.461" major O.D., 486 grains weight, 1.328" bullet length Powder-Coated: 0.462", 487 grains, 1.330", roughly.  Alas, this may be another good reason for a .458 Winchester Magnum Longclaw 3.6". I cannot dismiss the concept. Those who do dismiss it can still keep a magazine full of short loads, like 500-grainers at 2150 to 2250 fps, in their 3.4" magazine boxes, and single-shot feed and eject the cast-bullet loads, 487-grainers at gentler velocities.  Rip . | |||
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Looks like you got GREAT coverage, Ron! If they will chamber at .460, try a few Downrange. You might be pleasantly surprised. I wish my mould would drop at .460. I barely get clean sizing at .459, but they shoot great with no leading. | |||
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Thanks for the info RIP! Agree the Lott is superior, but I call my Lott she bitch from hell. Only rifle I own that I don't enjoy shooting. Hunt mostly with a .416 Rem. that has done well all around. But, I have an old MS in .458 WM that my PH won't let me use for buffalo, so I've wanted to develop some loads with lighter bullets to use on deer here in the States. I think a 350-400 grain would work just great. | |||
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Les, Thanks for goading me into this powder-coating, your tips have been good. How do you get your bullets out of the shaker and move them to the baking pan? What do you think about a vinyl or latex glove, powder the index finger and thumb tips before grabbing bullet nose? Note that they chamber just fine at .461" naked Linotype, and also no problem after powder-coating. That adds about .001". I have 35 of the piggies with lipstick now, minus 2 from the first batch that were used for the dummie rounds. The dummies chamber and eject just fine in Woodelle Whitworth and Chimera WinCzechster, the .458 WinMag sisters. I believe I will try 5 rounds each with 1.0 grain increments from 30.0 to 36.0 grains of AA-5744, no filler, chronographing and watching for accuracy tendency. I reckon the old original 404 Jeffery was a "squeeze bore" by C.I.P. spec, with jacketed bullets, not mere cast lead: Bullet diameter: 0.4220" maximum Bore diameter: 0.4118" minimum Groove diameter: 0.4181" minimum So, shooting lipstick-coated lead piggies of .461" to.462" diameter through .458"-diameter grooves ought to be no problem. But I will run a few through the .460" sizer and see what they look like ... Rip . | |||
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lavaca, You are welcome, my pleasure. But: I did not say the .458 Lott was superior to the .458 WinMag! I said just the opposite, for many reasons. I was enamored from the beginning with 400-grainers at 2400 fps, hard to do in the old days, though 350-grainers at 2500 fps was always easy, pleasant, and accurate. Now we are looking for + 2400 fps with 450-grainers, +2500 fps with the 400-grainers, +2700 fps with the 350-grainers, and +2800 fps with 300-grainers. Yep, all would be very adequate for deer and many other things. Rip . | |||
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Ron, I use a long nose needle nose pliers I got at....(wait for it)....Harbor Freight! Lightly pick the bullets up by the nose rider section and place standing up on the cookie sheet. Makes hardly a mark and when cooking the paint flows to cover that little flaw. Never see it! | |||
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I think I finally found some AA 2230 here in Canada.I have one CZ 550 in 458WM.I think I will keep it as such.It will be rebarreled soon with a Lothar Walther I have on order.I had sent it to Ralf a few years ago for feeding work.He put a spacer in that huge magazine box to help solve the feeding issue. | |||
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Les, Got that. Will use long-nosed, needle-nosed pliers. I pushed the PC-ed bullets through the .460" Lee sizer. It is as if the paint on those bullets acts as a lubricant.  No other lubricant needed. All it did to the bullets was make the painted driving band surfaces shinier, if that is possible. No visible change in the bullets, and the caliper says they are 0.461" in diameter after being pushed through the Lee "0.460-Inch" sizer. Good to go! This is really easy. Very neat and tidy compared to messing with lubes and gas checks. I am putting Woodelle Whitworth back on her throne in the safe. She now has a couple of cast-bullet loads using the old-fashioned slugs. Just keep them under 1400 fps and they all shoot pretty good. Now for the new-fangled, powder-coated, Linotype, cast bullets: Chimera WinCzechster is going to have herself a go at these bullets. Will report back on the results. 
shootaway, That is very wise. Old dogs do learn new tricks! I am thinking I want to re-barrel the CZ 550 Magnum that I had re-chambered from .458 WinMag to .458 Lott. It needs to go back to being a .458 WinMag. I think you might understand why. I forsee two future re-barrelings to .458 Winchester Magnum: 1. The "Alder Queen" .458 WinMag Longclaw 3.6-Inch Winchester M70 Stainless Extreme Weather, B&C-stocked, 25"-barreled. 2. The "African Queen" .458 WinMag Longclaw 3.8-Inch CZ 550 Magnum, B&C-stocked, 26"-barreled. Those two will both have the Wisner reproduction "African" rear sight, of course. And both will have non-fluted, stainless, #5 sporter contour barrels. Rip . | |||
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I would not choose a Douglas barrel.They are really low quality. | |||
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Thanks for the article, RIP. Antlers Double Rifle Shooters Society Heym 450/400 3" | |||
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Antlers, Welcome, my pleasure to re-read that old thing too. Sun finally came out today, so hi ho, hi ho, off to the range I go! I fired 35 powder-coated bullets, the first fifteen with accidental aluminum-foil gas checks. The last 20 with just the PC-paint on the bases, textured like the silicone cookie sheet. For the first 20 shots, the yahoo next to me was blasting away with some short-barreled pipsqueak rifle that was noisier than mine. The Oehler 35P would give error readings whenever he pulled the trigger! First time I have had that happen. When he left, I took off my sunglasses and focused the scope better. Surprise! The WinCzechster got more accurate after 20 shots. The last 15 shots had reliable readings and summaries too. I will have to manually calculate the other 4 loads. The first 5 shots were used to get on paper and adjust scope on a different target. Here are the last 30 shots on one target, and the last 15 shots zoomed-in:   Chimera WinCzechster likes red, Harbor-Freight lipstick on her pigs. 487-grain powder-coated pigs, cast from Linotype. Henceforth they are getting cast in Rippalloy and will be closer to 500 grains. This rifle likes those pigs loaded to 3.500" COL, in new Hornady brass, with F-215 primer. Here is what she wore to the range today:  Get a load of that standard deviation of 1 fps, for 5 shots, with the 34.0-grain load of AA-5744. No fillers used! That Nikon SlugHunter scope is a treat. Thanks again to 416Tanzan for recommending that.  Rip . | |||
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That will hunt Rip. Congratulations! "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Yep, that pig will hunt! I am impressed that no filler was used and that accuracy is better. Might have something to do with the powder coating and larger sizing, and longer COL seating of the bullets (.461").  Velocity is relatively low for amount of powder burned. Meaning, I reckon, pressures are lower without the filler and with the PC as lube, and with longer COL, even though bullet size was larger. Or red lipstick is just magic. I had the urge to add more powder and go on up to 40.0 grains of AA-5744, but I went and lay down and the urge went away.   I will try the heavier alloys and quit around 1400 fps with those too. .461/500-grain Rippalloy. Just plumb comfortable. Rip . | |||
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I am going to sacrifice a couple of pigs to the red god. Hardness testing before and after powder coating of Linotype slugs: See if I can detect any change in the BHN. Then same with Rippalloy slugs. The Lee Hardness Tester is the best I got. Bob Mitchell got the 350-grain TSX up to 2760 fps with 80 grains of H4198 in a 25" barrel. The 300-grain TTSX for .458 SOCOM is actually a slightly longer bullet, but being lighter, it might be speedier, even if my barrel is ~1/8" shorter than Bob's. It is time for me to try some 300-grain jacketed, varmint&plinking loads to add to the versatility of the .458 WinMag. Rip . | |||
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Did they feed from the magazine? "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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At 3.500" COL with two lube grooves showing, and crimped in the third, they are single-shot loaded: Push the ass end of the cartridge into the box with 0.1" of the bullet nose resting on the feed ramp. Like a hunting dog on point. Close the bolt and the round CRFs off the top of the loaded box. Carry those special, long loads in the ammo carrier on the buttstock. You can have 3.4" COL rounds in the box and still do this. Now, when I seat and crimp with only one lube groove showing, the COL is 3.375", and the WinCzechster feeds those from the magazine like poop through a goose. I do believe Les Staley's bullet is similar to mine and he seats them to shorter COL and gets good accuracy. I'll give it a try next time. COL 3.375" and magazine repeating. I will make a new batch and cut one in half to hardness test before and after powder-coating. And while I am at it, I will try some PC on those .459"/485-grain RNFP gas-checked. They are 10-1 alloy (lead/tin) supposed too have a BHN of 11.5 according to Lyman. Will hardness test them before and after PC, then put a gas check on the painted bases. Can't be shooting a rebated base bullet. I will use 36.0 grains of AA-5744 and no filler for everything. Just loading to a shorter COL will make the velocity a little faster: ++ 1400 fps. Counting on the PC to keep them accurate, through whatever voodoo is involved. Rip . | |||
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I put lipstick on 50 more pigs today, here is a sample of the two bullets and two loading lengths (COL) for each:   And, yes, the Powder-Coating (heating to 400 degrees for 15 minutes and then cooling in room air) does soften the bullets a little. BHN goes down about 2 units, according to my Lee Hardness Tester Kit. Roughly: Linotype goes from 22 down to 20 BHN. 10-1 (lead/tin) goes from 11.5 to 9.5. My Lee tester reads about 1 unit low, and my LBT tester reads about 1 unit high. Do both tests and average them and I am right on. Close enough for Government work. The .461"/487-grain Linotype Government bullet is a varmint bullet. The .459"/486-grain gas-checked bullet ought to be sufficient for deer. If the Government bullet is cast in Rippaloy, it will be close to 500-grains, and that will hunt too. I need to shoot both bullets at both COLs and see how accuracy and velocity compare amongst the four loads.  Rip . | |||
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Looks like I'll have to find some linotype. Passed up some 20# ingots at the last Gunshow. He was shooting cast in a Model 70 Classic in 375 H&H. Booklets look great, Ron. Appreciate the tech info about baking losing hardness. Keep on truckin'. | |||
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Shortening the COL from 3.500" to 3.375", with no change in powder charge, increased the velocity, but does it decrease the accuracy? I continue to be amazed by the uniformity of AA-5744 with no filler and cases half full, using powder-coated cast bullets. Here is another 5-shot Sd of 3 fps. These are shots 36 through 40 without cleaning the barrel. There is some mild leading of the barrel visible after 40 shots. Maybe I will clean every 40 shots:   The .459"-sized/486-gr, 10-1 alloy, gas-checked, powder-coated bullet was not as good as the "Government" bullet. Being able to load all the cartridges through the box magazine means less fiddling, with the 3.375" COL. I am hoping any difference in accuracy between the 3.500" COL and the 3.375" COL was due to my shooting, and a small sample. The excellent standard deviation for 5 shots with the shorter COL might be a more objective indication than my shooting.  I'll use the PC-Linotype for targets, zero at 100 yards, then see how far out I can hit the gongs with this Nikon SlugHunter scope. The next bunch of "Government" bullets will be cast in Rippalloy (heavier, less brittle), and sized as big as possible: .460" if .461" is not possible. Stay tuned for .458/300-grain jacketed bullets at +2800 fps, including the Barnes .458 SOCOM TTSX. Twice the speed, not twice the MOA, I hope. Rip . | |||
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base and reflex site pic s for the 458 win mag       BEST QUICK RELEASE REFLEX SIGHT MOUNTING SYSTEM OUT THERE YOU CAN TAKE 2 SIGHTS WITH YOU SNAP ON OFF SNAP THE NEXT ONE ON OR PULL IT OFF AND USE IRON SIGHTS SO BEST OF ALL WORLDS MAIN THING IT'S DOWN LOW WHERE IT BELONGS QUICK TO COME TO BATTERY Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Mighty cool, built solid and low as part of the rear open sight base. Is that rear sight base integral to the barrel? Perfect for DGR use. But those of us who want to make a varmint rifle out of the .458 WinMag need a scope too. That should work well with addition of Smithson scope mounts too. Or, some cross-slot bases on the action, for Leupold QRW or Burris X-Treme Tactical rings. Rip . | |||
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Ron, If you have not done this...then try the following. Take a 270 or 300 Winchester and used reduced loads with any of the powders like Varget, 3032, 4064 etc. and seat the bullet so it is into the rifling. Seat the bullet so it is maybe a 1/32" too far out. Use heavier bullets like 180 grain in 30 calibre etc. You will be amazed at far down you can go with the powder the charge and also the accuracy. No fillers required. | |||
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RIP shaped out of a bar of stock fit screwed sodered then cut square to the action so not part of the barrel this is a prototype the black stock is the pattern which will be duplicated in walnut and then set to the rifle the 5 down bottom metal is shown in the black stock which is final shape style next is the trigger system some here might find that interesting if not intriguing once it is crafted we are closing in on a professional killing machine steady as she goes Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Mike, If you say so, OK. Your participation is greatly appreciated. Only 12 pages and 56,720 views for the .458 WinMag thread to catch up to the 400 Whelen. Got any .458 WinMag, jacketed-bullet, plinking loads from 300 to 400 grains at somewhere between Mach 1 and Mach 3? I am more interested in .458 WinMag squirrel loads at the moment. Rip . | |||
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Stradling, Thanks for posting any developments. Only 56,719 more views to go until we catch this .458 WinMag thread up to the 400 Whelen thread, and leave it in the dust. We can do it! Rip . | |||
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Les Staley, Thanks again for talking me through the powder coating.  I am going to go load up a bunch of the PC-Government bullets and zero that Nikon SlugHunter scope 3" high at 100 yards, then the center of the reticle will be dead-on at 135 yards. Nikon "Spot-On" ballistics say that on 3X power setting, the bottom post is then calibrated for 550 yards. I will have to hold only about 6-1/2 feet high for 600 yards. Tennessee elevation is required even with this "high-tech" scope. The 10 MPH crosswind drift at 600 yards is only about 5-1/2 feet. Kentucky windage. Rip . | |||
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NEMO Arms The new AR in 458 win mag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcnoFE7Dc68 here are another 30,000 views for the 458 win mag RIP might help get things forward The Biggest AR Ever: NEMO OMEN .458 Winchester Magnum 30,577 views 13 pounds only $6,000 bucks every deer hunters rifle NOT AVAILABLE IN 458 LOTT Anyway it matters not, because my experience always has been that of---- a loss of snot and enamel on both sides of the 458 Win---- | |||
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Stradling, Right, views, I meant, not posts, corrected. What, about 40 posts per page? Look out 400 Whelen. Thanks for the Youtube link. One Youtube leads to another of course. After watching those girls' fannies jiggle ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEwG0-Rl9XI ... while they were shooting prone, I found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLP1s0IeIWw Hey, if Quigley can shoot a bucket at 782 yards with a .45-110 Sharps 2-7/8", with 540-grain paper-patched bullet at about 1300 fps MV, well, I ought to be able to hit a much bigger gong at 600 yards, using a flying pig at +1400 fps MV, from a .458 WinMag.  I'll keep shooting until I hit that gong. Then the varmint loads ...  ... as preliminaries to some big game hunting loads with GSC and North Fork 400 to 450 grainers. Rip . | |||
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