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Michael, Expansion of the meplat starts at impacts around 2300fps. Obviously expansion depends on the SD of the bullet and how fast it is slowed down in target. Mainly, the expansion enhances the qualities that make for straight line penetration rather than detract from it. I have access to a website that is needing some content. If you want to post the spreadsheet there as a download, you are welcome. Mail it to me and I will get it up. In fact, anyone who has an article or item of interest to put up, mail it to me and we can create a category for it, if it needs it, and place it. http://www.shooter.co.za | |||
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Boy it’s been a busy day already. Ok, regarding the NF 500gr .474 FN meplat; I thought as it had performed so efficiently from Mike’s DR with its 18.9” twist rate that perhaps we needed to dig a little deeper. So shortly after Mike posted his testing results I inquired directly on the NF website and asked if they could identify some specific information relating to their CPS and FPS copper solids for me. This past Sunday I received the NF response…many thanks to them for their customer service!  The meplat as stated by NF is 0.396” diameter. And we have Mike’s measurements which would indicate the NF meplat dimensions include the edge bevel – perhaps a CNC programming dimension…? No idea. Which methodology is better, purely stamped flat surface or inclusion of bevel? Do we need to capture both specifications? Quen sabe? Now, Doc M’s latest greatest updated data capture sheet…finally figured out how to get it posted so here are the four separate sheets:     Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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www.shooter.co.za Gerard, Nice! My work 'puter is not smart enough to block that one! I might add that I have the Wingyro working on another 'puter ow and can calculate SF finally. I believe you shared that years ago, and I just now got it working. It was a problem with my end on the hardware/software interface. DocM, I think you have found a home for your spreadsheets ... maybe more than one. Since you have a South African wife, you ought to post on both sides of the pond. Not logical, I know. That expanded .395/340gr copper GSC FN was expanded by hitting water at 2700 fps. Water is harder than concrete at that velocity, but not as abrasive. By the time it got to the second waterbucket, I am sure it was down to 2300 fps or slower. All that expansion probably happened in the first eight inches of water. Actually most of it occurred in the first 2 or 3 inches of water, most likely. Set it up nicely for straightline penetration. | |||
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Jim, Good work. I am blocked from looking at photobucket at the moment, will have to whip out the iphone and magnifying glass ... | |||
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Michael. What about the 500 Hornady DGS in .458 at 2300 f/s in the Lott and around 1900-2000 in the 458 B&M??? Maybe the 480 grs as well? 465HH got great results with the DGS, see if you can confirm in your testboxes... | |||
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Whoa. You can read them on a iPhone with a magnifying glass!!  I almost need a magnifying glass to read them on my 17” laptop monitor!!Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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The 458 450 grain GS pictured was recovered in 5 gallon nylon buckets backed by a few 3/4 inch thick pine boards. It went through about 44 inches of buckets and four inches of wood as I recall. Velocity about 2,450 fps. 1-12 450 GA. Andy | |||
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Many thanks for the fine team work getting the spread sheets posted!  One more thing, please update as info is generated.  | |||
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Gerard I had in the past always contended that any deformation would or possibly could detract from straight line penetration. But I am not so sure of that these days, with as much as we are learning here. A lot of myths have been dispelled thus far. I understand the concept, and it does seem logical that by expanding the meplat upon impact, causing it to enlarge, larger meplat, deeper and straighter penetration! As long as that expanding meplat is even, which it seems to be. At least it certainly does not seem to distract from penetration from what we see. Since I rarely run much big bore past 2300 with the exception of 416 then for me personally it does not come into effect. Thanks so much for the offer to post on the site! It looks like Jim got it sorted out for us, as I knew he most likely would figure it out. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Jim I knew there was a reason I keep you around! Excellent job! Don't know how you did that, not sure I want to know either! Maybe I experiment for the next updated sheet and enlarge the print some so we can see it! Hell I know what's on there and I can barely make it out! Larger Print for the next one! As for the measurements, stamping is the only way I have confidence of being consistent with all bullets. For our purposes I think it will be enough. RIP Well I had a suspicion that either you or Jim would figure the spreadsheet out. I was correct! I think a good test again with the same .395 bullet in the Sim-Test, eh? Might see Sim explode everywhere? Good concept, I just have not seen it. Buffalo Yes, will do the Hornady DGS! When they come in I will hammer them at several velocities and see what we see. As you see posted under the 458 section the one test did not do so well with the 480. So I don't put a lot of faith in them being able to perform with the big boys! Yes, I know all to well that 465HH did very good with them, and from what I have seen he is recommending them now! What would he do if he ever shot a North Fork or Barnes Banded into an elephant, and saw how good that performed I wonder?  Andy Thanks, good info! IBT Yes, every update I will send to Jim and Jim can post it! Maybe I will ask him how, but he does things that are too complicated for me to deal with! Good man to have on the team! (But he will drive you Quickload Crazy-so don't ask about that-and he is the Quickload King) Didn't you say you were going to be in Charlotte at the NRA Convention? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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 Hum…thought that was QuickDesign Crazy…Hum… Ok guess I can stop sharing…   Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim Damn, did you see I was talking to IBT? No my man, just F%$@*&G with ya! I am quite sure you are a genius! And these days you seem to be quite an asset, so thanks! I am just proud as can be I have one of those little photos under my name now! No one has said shit about it either! All my life I have made it a point to surround myself with good folks! That is the way to success you know! So count yourself as one of those! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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What is being done here is a lot of work and the information is light years ahead of the inaccurate BS that has been spouted for years. To the testers 5 thumbs up and a toast.. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Ok, just F%$@*&G back with ya! And, you're looking mighty perky...nice photograph! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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+1 and another toast And John for you and I Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Michael, I have already done that with the NF. Check my last hunt report for the results. 465H&H | |||
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465 HEH! Depends on where you put the hunt report. I don't spend much time upstairs, it's a little to "pompous" for my tastes. Most of the time I cruise through just curious at what ignorant stupidity I might run across for laughs. And if you are posting it upstairs you are pretty much wasting your energy there, if it has to do with shooting and bullets, it needs to be here where at least it can be looked at by shooters. 3/10/10 You know this statement is a bit ugly, and for that I apologize for the rudeness of it, in doing my best to be a gentleman! But none the less, it's very hard for me to tolerate rudeness, arrogance, ego and ignorance, traits combined together as one in others in which they consider themselves legends in their own minds because of some sort of experience or another. Not directed at you 465 HH at all, but some you hang around with! I think you should keep better company and stay down here with us! Most of the time I simply ignore, but once and awhile I cannot abide by such, and simply must take them to task! http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, Here’s H’s post over on the DR Forum, 470 vs 500 (Penetration) Thread: I’ll try to summarize as follows: Calibers – Penetration on frontal head shots of elephant: .465 & .475 Calibers: 480gr & 500gr Woodleigh FMJ RN: – frontal head to middle of the neck, .458 WinMag @ 2150fps: 500gr .458 Hornady DGS FN: Woodleigh +18” (frontal head to front of shoulder) 500gr .458 North Fork FN: Woodleigh +30” (frontal head to back strap next to spine) .458 Lott @ 2150 fps: 550gr .458 Hornady DGS FN: Woodleigh +30”+ (found in stomach – over 6’ penetration) Now if we knew the actual distance of “frontal head to middle of the neck” and “found in stomach – over 6’ penetration” a better perspective could be developed. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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You're welcome! I'm glad I could contribute something other than aggravation.  Hey, I didn't really suggest lipstick for marking the meplat, did I? Great job on the spreadsheet, Jim. Now don't get ticked off and delete it on us! _________________________ Glenn | |||
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"Didn't you say you were going to be in Charlotte at the NRA Convention?" Will not be at NRA this year. It's the Shoot Show's turn. Did attend the DSC earlier in the year. I try to rotate the NRA, SCI, DSC and Shoot Show in some sort of order. One a year. | |||
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IBT OK then I suppose I won't see you there. I don't make many shows anymore. I do love SHOT and the NRA, and since NRA is in my back door nearly I will be there for Friday and Saturday on the floor. I won't attend other functions, just the floor! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I will see you there, Michael! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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O, I'm here Michael. . . . yup, right here . . . . Keepin an eye on all the testing goin on, in case I have to jump in to keep you between the picket fences! But it looks like you are doin just fine so far on your own. . . . But remember. . . . I WILL be watching!  | |||
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But, where is there? I could not find it on my GPS _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Evidently you need a better GPS...... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Excellent Whitworth--For sure will catch up with you there on the floor I suppose, or are you behind the scenes somewhere? Dwright, keep watching! JWP There? Here is there? All truth flows from South Carolina! Had a GPS once, could not figure out anything other than on and off! Much past that I just soon use a compass! But I do have that on and off button whipped! OK, little break, back to the lab, then back to the range! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I think I might have the spreadsheet thing figured out. Also made some improvements on the way it appears (I think) since I have and keep the data. If this works well, then it is not an issue for me to update and post when needed. So we see below?  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Well that appears pretty good looks like to me! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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It would be nice to have the expandable data, and 338, too, when you get a chance. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Tanzan When I saw your post in my email, I remembered, wait, in the solids we also did a 250 Barnes 338, that I neglected putting on the spreadsheet. What has been posted is Solids and FMJ only---no expanding bullets. The way I keep terminal data is by caliber. All expanding and solids are on those sheets, but, this was a request from Capoward which included all measurements of solids, so it is totally separate sheet from the other data. As for expanding, yes that is something I can work on and get posted now that I know how to do it. I will endeavor to get some data posted. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Tanzan How's this work for you?  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, PM sent....... "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Got it and replied back. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Now I am outta here, I have range work to do, some more load data on the 50 B&MSA. Be back sometime later! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Hey Michael, that works for me! There are going to be a lot of thankful animals in the forest for a neat, orderly invitation to dinner. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Hey, whatever happened to the Garrett Hammerheads y'all were going to test?? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Nice picture Michael…not as perky as yesterday…but nice nonetheless. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I've been wondering the same thing as Whitworth. What happened to the Garrett Hammerhead test? | |||
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Yes, the 45-70 Hammer Heads, what happened? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Did someone ever send some Hammerheads to Michael? Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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