Buffalo and DWright

Yes, it is really safe now, you can return!

456HH

Safe for you too! SANE? No way, that just plain ain't a bit of fun! Sake is fun! Lot's of Sake, is real good fun! No need to worry, definitely "certifiable"!

375? Hmmmm? You see, this is another reason I hate leopards. You say "entered the first blind?" Do you mean the first blind you ever sit in hunting a damn leopard? No man, you don't mean that do you?

Well, I have sit in leopard blinds many many many nights, all night, with 338 Winchester, 358 STA, 458 Winchester, 45/70, 35 Whelen, and 458 Lott--just from memory and finally got one after many nights with a 416 Remington. But never would I put my hands on a 7mm anything, nor a 375 anything. So I reckon that must have been where I went wrong in the past? Damn, if someone had told me about this, I would have bought a 375 and then got rid of it afterwards, can you imagine how many nights that would have saved me? I would have probably even liked leopards then? My whole life could be different? But it ain't so! Now I really hate leopards, 7mm, and 375's all the more so!

30 Minutes in a blind, dead leopard! I was just beginning to like you too! Damn spotted devils!


Michael

OK boys, back to reality for a minute. I did not get any shooting done today. I actually had to do real work, gets in the way of shooting from time to time. No, I have not been rolling naked in the NonCons, actually been working! But this afternoon I will load up some more 338 pills, and test again in the morning. Also surely the Brown Bus man will be bringing the light 338s today! So I can get them ready as well.

Same time, will load the 45/70s I would like to test out too. Right now I have some of the 400 gr Barnes Busters I would like to put in the mix with the 45/70, also the 330 Barnes Solid, and the 305 NonCons. See what we see there.

Been thinking too about 465HHs elephant heads! I am going to try not to duplicate an elephant head, I can't do that of course, without shooting the one I have on the range, and I ain't going to do that! So what I am thinking is to take 2 inches of fiberboard 2-3 inches inside the mix--then a mix of wet print and something else??? ending with another layer of fiberboard in the back. I will measure the width of the skull I have, add some for meat and skin, and probably add another 10-15% because this was a medium size bull. Now I don't want just straight wet print between the fiberboard, and I don't really want to put just a layer of something, so I have to look around for some sort of idea. Like I said, I have been thinking about it, not having it solved just yet. I know the fiberboard is far more dense than any bone, no doubt there. I want something tougher than an elephant head, but within reason. Think of something easy access, that can be inserted within the wet print? Wood Chips perhaps? Maybe something like 2 inches wet print mix, 2 inches wood chips? Other materials???? Ideas??? Thoughts??? I think needs to be tough, but not crazy?

I am game if anyone has a reasonable idea for this? Now, I am not really sure what it would prove, if anything, but we can try? It would be wild if we broke or bent some of these bullets? While others passed the test eh? OK, I am looking and thinking of this, maybe something comes to me! In the meantime will continue with other tests.

Michael

Michael

What's your 45-70 platform .. ?? I may have some loaded ammo for you.

Truck retreads. Screw em flat to something. Prefeably steel belted types eh ..??

Michael,
Sure glad you are not rolling in the bullets like a hound on a roadkill pancake!
I was worried that all your hard work had triggered a manic episode.
So glad you are still sane, not howling at the moon either.

How about a couple of ~1/2" thick fiberglass boards (decking material) set at 45 degree angles,
upright but twisted in the wet print, evenly spaced between the front and back of the skull?
Could simulate the glancing off of curved surfaces and transitioning between various tissues inside the skull.

Witness cards are best for solids, to watch for tumbling and veering and keyholing, aye.
Useful only in the first 8" or so with softs, aye.

DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"

Actually, it was the second blind and set up on. The first we had what appeared to be a medium sized cat coming to a bait and we built a blind. When we got back to the Landie the tracker remembered he left his chopper at the bait so he walked back to the bait to retrieve it. When he returned about 30 minutes later he said that a leopard jumped out of the tree when he approached. So we went back and sat in the blind for about an hour and a large female appeared and started feeding. We watched her for a half hour or so and left her to her meal. The kill was actually only a 30 minute wait on the first try. In addition, we saw two more leopards while we were driving around and another when we were walking looking for a bait tree. That one was curled about around a pool of water and was a large male but I passed on it since I wanted to shoot one over bait. I don't know what is so difficult about leopard hunting. Now, bushbuck are a totally different story.

465H&H

I was offered a try at leopard in the Tuli Block by baiting.
I laughed!
I would follow hounds after leopard, or shoot one as a target of opportunity only.
CITES better be straight too, or I would return to shoot the leopard guide as a target of opportunity.
I am sure there are some unscrupulous leopard guides (sheisters!) that just enjoy resting in their chairs in a blind. Easy work when you can get it.
Not this sucker!

I also find fishing boring unless I can be very active in the process, like rowing up and down the Kasilof River in a driftboat, trolling for Kings.
No sheisters in power boats on the Kenai River please!
Also favored is watching the Reds swim by and trying to snag them in the mouth instead of the dorsal fin with a big treble hook,
while Mama bear and her cubs fish the other side of the stream on the Alaska Peninsula.
Spearfishing and bowfishing is cool too.

quote:

unless I can be very active in the process

You mean like hooked up to a 200lb Yellow fin on a floppy 7' rod and 30 lb test while rolling around in 12 foot quartering seas ..??

I had visions of “She who must be obeyed” whacking you a few times with the broom trying to get you out of the bullets! Before she turned the dogs loose on you when the broom didn’t work!

Seriously…glad to see no long term issues from Sake night!

Question, with your elephant test head…are you going to use some metal piping angling from the bottom sides to replicate the incased tusks should the small brain zone be missed??? And no I’m not saying that you’re a bad shot and that you will miss the small brain area at 40+ yards impact zone. Just wondering if you’re intending to factor that issue into the ETH?

Mac

Let's see 45/70 platform, I have Marlin Guide guns, Ruger #1, couple of Winchester 1885s, Winchester 1886s, a few of each, except only 1 Ruger #1 now, I converted the other Ruger #1 to 50 AK. So have plenty of platforms!

Now Mac, truck retreads? You should have joined us on the Hillbilly thread! Ye'Ha!


Hard work will get to a fellow sometimes, and I just saw all those shiny, beautiful bullets there before me, it was almost more than I could bare! (bare? Yes, Pun Intended)

The fiberboard at an angle, wet print, more fiberboard, more wet print for the distance of an elephant skull. Yes, that might be ok, I can just about guarantee that is tougher than any elephant skull on the planet! That damn fiberboard is something else, when I test this I will take photos to show how dense it is. I might try this just to see how tough it is. Will do so with a barnes since I have plenty of those, and know personally what they will do. If it fails, then it's too tough, no doubt. I will check that in the morning and see what I can come up with!

Yes, I chunked most all Witness Cards I had past the 8 inch mark on expanding. I kept all cards on solids. Unless a card shows something other than a bullet passing thru, it's not much use on expanding. I have these booked in a notebook, with a cover sheet explaining details, bullet, total penetration, the works, then the witness cards behind it. Details on the front page, then witness cards. Always keep the 4 inch, but unless a card show something special, then dump the rest. Like trauma on the 8 inch card, keep that. Solids, I keep them all.

465HH

Driving around spotting leopards! Passed a leopard up, standing in the F%&$)ing Road! Leopards running around in the road! Leopards in trees all around you, on the ground! Laying around to pool in camp too! You know something! I don't care! And I really don't want to hear anymore about it! I don't like leopards! Damn, around the pool you say? Damn. Where is my medicine, I think I forgot to take my drugs this morning, I feel one of those episodes coming on! Running around in the road and laying around the pool? I don't even know what to say to this? I have to go, I can't take this anymore!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
You mean like hooked up to a 200lb Yellow fin on a floppy 7' rod and 30 lb test while rolling around in 12 foot quartering seas ..??

Yes, that could keep my attention too.

This ain't no damn fishing show, and I don't want to know anything about leopards, anymore! I hate leopards, don't know if I mentioned that. Tell you something else I don't do anymore and that's "goat hunting". I am retired from those activities! Wife loves to fish, she does the fishing in the family! I blew some up with some dynamite one time? Does that count? Talk about a good catch, every single one of them in the pond! Now that's my kind of fishing! First tried one stick! Like a damn firecracker! Then I tied 10 sticks together and dropped them about 5 ft down! Now that was a sight!

Now, I did some 9.3 tests a couple of months ago, some have seen them, I posted over on my 9.3 thread on small bores, or somewhere. I am bringing them here today since I have nothing else to offer, and there may be some lurkers here that did not see them.


Want to talk about good penetration!

Michael

OK the UPS just delivered, and no Midway Order! So I go to Midway, check my order, hell maybe I forgot to hit the purchase button or something? No, there was my order, 1/15/2010! It's two days UPS, always and forever! But Midway sent it USPS, and it only went out on the 19th! With the US Postal, it may never arrive! Maybe in the next two to three weeks now I suppose?

Sorry Tanzan, they will arrive one day maybe!

Other great news! I have one of my 500 MDMs back in the rack, with it's brand new Chamber and new updated and improve 500 MDM cartridge! I will get some of these shot tomorrow and show you! YIPPIE!!!!!!!

In the meantime, this is the first one back from getting a new chamber!

Michael, I understand.
We'll wait. I can't do the testing where I am, and will just wait on this year's bullet order until after you can shoot some 185 TTSXs and 225s.

PS: your 9.3 TSX didn't list penetration above.
Was it over 16 in?

quote:

PS: your 9.3 TSX didn't list penetration above.
Was it over 16 in?

Tanzan

Yes, I see the missing number now. It's on my data sheets, yes over 16 inche

9.3 250 Barnes TSX in 9.3 B&M---17 Inches. Sorry I missed that!

Oh, I might be exaggerating some concerning the Midway delivery and the USPS! I expect it to be here in a day or two. Most likely I can complete the mission by Saturday anyway, if they come.

Not sure why Midway sent that way? I know I did not request, but I did not pay attention either on that page of the order. I know recently, and this is terrible, that USPS lost 500---510 gr .500 caliber solids, last October!!!! Gone, they don't know where they are? Just gone! I bet I could ride around some back country dirt roads and find them scattered all to hell somewhere! Not much faith in our USPS!

Well, you have seen some 338 bullets now, what do you think?

Michael

Michael!

You need to get out of your back yard and your swimming pool and realise that there are natural pools out in the bundu!

465H&H

465HH

Now of course I know there are pools in the bush! Man, been there too! But what you fail to realize is that all the Sake and all the beer is back at camp around the pool and the back yard. I can't get my trackers to understand they must carry the cooler on their backs! In fact one of them is just getting plain lazy! So these days I am not getting too far from where the vodka, sake, and ICE cold beer is! So I am going to start hunting leopard again! Yes, that's correct! If that bastard comes anywhere near the beer cooler, or the fridge in camp, I am going to shoot him with one of the .500 NonCons and watch him explode! Dirty, bastard spotted devils they are!

Anyway..................

I could not wait, had to set up the dies, load some 500 MDMs, had to see the new case and what it looked like! Can't wait to show you!


Michael

Thank you.
well, if the 9.3 got 17", let's see if the
225TTSX in 338 won't get 18. It would give some added confidence to what we have. Maybe we'll just get some more and add a box of those nice flatnose solids. 48" at slower speeds is still plenty of emergency backup.
And watching these tests, I'm going to guess 12" for the 185 grain TTSX, unless it drops it petals and 'goes long and deep' for 25-30. OK, not likely.
Testing is what gives us knowledgable choices. I suspect that the 160 and 185 may need to be llimited to deer and impala. But we won't know ...until.

Tanzan

225 TSX 18? Possible I suppose! I suspect 16 or so at the high velocity in 338 Win. If I remember I might load some down to around 2650 or so and try those too, penetration should increase. I think that having a few of those 250 Barnes Banded in your back pocket is a no brainer. If I was walking around in the bush where you are, I know damn well I would have some. You can easy get 2600 + in your 338 Winchester if you want, but as you already know, anything from 2150 up will get you there! I think Windage should be ok with POI, say between the 225s and the 250 Solids. Elevation you have plenty of room to play with the 250s and velocity to get them working close to the same POI say at 100 or so. But should you ever need the 250s it would be much closer, might consider getting POI at 50 instead. Sight in with the 225s, check the 250s and adjust the velocity to see what happens with POI at 50.

I have load envelopes waiting for the bullets, they did not arrive today either. Tomorrow?

All of you, better pay attention! I don't think some of you are paying attention! I posted something today, and have heard zero comments, better go back and look?

465HH

Elephant head that RIP and I discussed? Any suggestions, thoughts?

Michael

Yes, that 500 is a beautiful gun and a good lookking cartridge.
I would gladly use one.

But some of us simple folk have to get by on a good wine and only a couple of rifles. Maybe less, the 338 is actually my wife's. But she lets me use it.

.

Tanzan
Thanks! I love the 500s!

Wine gives me heartburn! Have to stay on the sake!

LOL.

Alf

Top of the evening to you!

Elephant heads. Well I never really had a problem with one. I have shot a few, saw a few cut in half, pretty familiar with what they look like inside, even have one that I shipped back, the first animal shot with the 2.25 inch version of the 50 B&M--510 solid frontal brain, all the way thru and gone somewhere else? Tough, I never thought they were that tough myself personally, however 465HH keeps posting broken ass bullets, broke on elephant skull! So I figure I can make something here, a hell of a lot tougher than an elephant skull out of this fiberboard material. Now, not trying to simulate an elephant skull, I like the one I have, and I am not going to shoot it up! I can't simulate one at all. I figure if the bullets will travel thru something I do here that is far meaner and tougher than an elephant skull, then an elephant skull should be a piece of cake! ??? Maybe? Maybe Not? I don't know, just figuring! Read what RIP suggested, I think that will be far tougher than any elephant skull I ever seen or heard of!

With my .500 caliber solids I put them thru 2 inches of this fiberboard a couple of inches inside the medium, at an angle. The bullets burned right through the fiberboard, and did not even penetrate less, and was dead straight, and no damage to the bullet! I figured no elephant walking would present such an issue. Now I have only had a chance to shoot 2 elephants and 18 buffalo with those solids and they work just fine on those animals.

I am trying only to attempt to give some of the solids a little something tougher than just the wet print alone, but still try to be somewhat reasonable. This fiberboard is tough and extremely dense. Much more so than bone of any kind. That's all! Any ideas or thoughts of something else I can do?

Michael

That New .500 MDM just flat gives me a woody!

DWright

Man I could not wait yesterday afternoon to shoot the 500 MDM. I reset the current dies, they will work until new dies come in from Hornady, at least I can keep shooting. Loaded up about 10 of them and went to work. Fantastic is what I say! Hornady made an expander for me to take 375 Ultra up to 500. I was a little concerned with the new shorter neck that might not work, but it does. Damn though it makes an ugly, narly looking cartridge until it's fire formed! But irons out perfect! The MDM brass I have from Quality is perfect for this! Now today, I am going to load up some of the old already formed brass and see what happens? I am afraid that I will loose that brass! But fortunately I have less that 100 pieces of that, so..........? I love the shorter neck, just looks so much better to me!

I hope to get some more test work done today! I will post later if I get any thing done!

Michael

Isn't the 'shove' comforting, as you remember walking in the bush among those dark, angry shadows we call buffalo?

Great picture Michael. Interesting that while both .500 MDM variants are of recent design, the original cartridge case has the appearance of an early 1900’s design while the new cartridge case definitely has the modern improved look currently in vogue.

quote:

Now today, I am going to load up some of the old already formed brass and see what happens? I am afraid that I will lose that brass!

Michael,

I think the results your firing of the original style case in the new improved chamber will be of interest to everyone participating in the thread. I realize that runs counter to safe reloading philosophy…but you’re headspacing primarily off the extractor already runs counter to traditional philosophy. So my personal opinion is that the extractor will hold the cartridges just fine and with the smooth radius at the shoulder and the shoulder/neck junction of the legacy brass that it’ll fire form to the new chamber dimensions without loss of brass…unless the brass is already at the end of its reloading life cycle.

Anyway, that’s my personal opinion…which with about $5 will get you a small cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Alf and Michael,

One thing to remember is that elephant heads are variable in their ability to stress bullets depending on where they are hit. Alf is correct that the elephant head above the brain is made up of honeycomb bone. This is not very tough bone to penetrate. But there are at least three other bones in the head that depending on the angle of the shot you may have to penetrate. They are the tusk sockets (exceedingly tough, hard and dense bone), teeth ( possibly the toughest bone in the head) and the jaw bone also very dense bone but thinner than the other two mentioned. In addition if you are a little low breaking one of the first two neck vertebrae(atlas and axis) can also be difficult. Also their isn't a much tougher bone to penetrate than the humerus (front leg bone)or the femur (hind leg bone). Look at what happened to the GS FN solid that hit what appears to be an elephant humerus posted by Gerard above. Now what is even tougher is the ball joint where the humerus attaches to the scapula.

I wouldn't use your elephant skull either. For one reason it is dried out and wouldn't provide the same resistance as a fresh blood and fluid filled bone. As to how to better replicate an elephant head or other bone, I don't have a good idea. I am not sure that the fiberboard is a good imitator because it is flat and elephant bones have rounded or angled edges that may affect bullets differently. Using fresh leg bones from cattle might give you some idea but thy will be much smaller that comparable elephant bones.

I have neglected to answer Michael's question on the twist rate of my Lott when shooting the 550 grain Woodleighs. The rifle was a custom Pre-64 Mod-70 with a 22' Douglas Premium Barrel with a 1 in 14 twist rate.

465H&H

Capoward

I fired 10-12 rounds of the old cartridge in the new chamber. Zero issues with headspace (Extractor-Extractor-Extractor) I keep saying. Anyway, it irons out good to the new chamber, but leaves a slight ring where the old ghost shoulder used to be. I can't feel anything inside the case, but at some point it might be possible those would separate?? I don't know, but will find out later I suppose!


Michael

465HH

Yes, correct elephant head are variable and lot's of different bones involved, depending on the shot and angle. Bone is variable and rather dense. I don't think something like that can be duplicated, but we can put some obstacles up and see what happens.

There goes my theory about twist rate and my rifle I suppose. I still don't know what mine is, but I would suspect standard 1:14 same as yours.

I have some tests to post, coming up, even 1 very difficult test for a solid, and it changed the normal outcome of that particular bullet! Hmmmmm? More 338 tests to be posted. Have shot all damn day today.

Michael

Well you know we have been talking about inserting something in the mix to make it tough on the solids. Can't really duplicate an elephant head, but we can see if we can do something to upset some of these "super penetrators".

Since I am not going to shoot my elephant skull, I have been talking about this fiberboard. So I could not stand it, I set up a little test, and since I was shooting and playing with one of my 500 MDMs then it got to be the goat today!




The bullet was the 510 gr SSK Solid that I have used quite a bit in the last few years. I know for a fact, as I have done this, that this bullet at 2100 fps will go completely through, from the front an elephant head, exit the brain, and goes somewhere in the body, not found. I know it will go through an elephant broadside, I know it will exit an elephant from a rear shot after traveling a minimum of 7 ft. I know it will burn through buffalo from any angle. So this is a great bullet for my rifles. One I trust.

In the wet print mix it is very consistent, driving to around 62 inches dead straight.

Here is a photo of the fiberboard, or the commercial name is Rhino Decking. This is dense material, whatever it is. Can't nail through it, have to drill. The same size piece of yellow pine feels like a feather compared to this stuff.


Below you see how the test was set up. It cannot be consistent from time to time, so don't ask, it won't be. Close yes, exact, no way.

I used 12 inches of fresh wet print up front. Then a fiberboard turned at an angle behind the mix, then a 1X4 pine turned opposite angle, at 20 inches another fiberboard turned on angle and a couple of pieces of pine board thrown with it, and at 29 inches another fiberboard turned flat and piece of 2X4 behind it flat. Now in between all these boards I stuffed some chewed up, half dry-half damp wet print just to hold things in place. Behind all this mess was solid wet print mix.



In the 500 MDM the impact velocity at 21yds was 2260 fps. Not running at full speed which is 2350 fps. No need for 2350 fps with this bullet. The bullet burned through the first 12 inches of wet print like it was air of course.

The first fiberboard at an angle entrance and then exit



The second fiberboard exit only


The third fiberboard entrance and exit


Some of the pine boards in between all this.


And the end result.


The bullet stayed dead straight to 46 inches where at that point it started to veer up, it left the top of the box at 54 inches. I was smart enough to put some telephone books on top of the box to contain it should it come out, and they did.

The bullet burned straight through all of the fiberboard, all the wood inserts, and through 15 or more inches of wet print behind this mess before loosing stability.

What does this prove? I suppose all it proves is that this bullet, this day, did the above described! That's all I know, but it was interesting that for the first time I was able to de-stabilize it! Also the bullet has no damage in any way, does not show any compression at all.

Michael

Michael,

I have friends who have used new 2.5” belted magnum brass to form their 30 Newton and 35 Newton cartridge cases Edit added...this was prior to availability of 375 Ruger formed or basic brass which they currently use. If I remember correctly it usually took two full load firings to full straighten the brass yet all would still have a similar case crease at the former belt/body junction yet the brass was still good for 6-12 full load firings (depending upon brand of brass) before the brass needed to be disposed of.

Using their experience, your 100 cases should be good for 600 to 1200 firings, under normal loading conditions, depending upon the original quality of the factory brass. Perhaps you should use the creased cases in your testing, load work, and maybe pig hunting and save the good QC headstamped brass for overseas DG hunting. Or at least until you’ve exhausted the reloading life of the early formed cases.

Jim

I think you are probably correct on all points. I scratched around on the inside and can't feel anything, I imagine the brass will be fine! I do like the new look, I know we talked a lot about that!

Michael

Ok it's 338 time now!
No bullet delivery today either. USPS--


I tested some 338 caliber bullets I have around and got some pleasant surprises today. All these are with the 338 Winchester.
This is the 180 Nosler Accubond. I was playing with this in my 338 WSM. I was rather pleased with the results, for small game only take note!


I have shot a few smaller critters with the 200 Nosler Ballistic Tips. I think the largest animal I have shot with it is a blesbuck. Have shot a few baboons with it too. Works great for those sort of critters.


The 215 Sierra BT really surprised me, I expected it to loose the core, but it did not.


250 Hornady does much better at lower velocity!


250 Nosler Partition looks pretty good



These 250 Swifts were loaded in 1999. 69 grs IMR 4350. Seems they held up pretty good!


That's all I have today!
Michael

quote:

I thought about dumping them all out there in the floor, mixing them up together, getting NAKED and rolling in them, like a dog on a bone!!! Serious, for real! But I could not find anyone to take the photos. If I can get someone to take the photos I will go get naked and post them quickly for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Michael, sometimes a verbal description is sufficient.


I'm impressed by the performance of the 320 grain 9.3x62! As long as you have that, it appears you wouldn't need no stinkin .375.

I can't wait for the 338, 225 grain TSX results. I'll have to stay tuned for the next episode

.

Alf's story of his Pop and the 44Mag ele kill explains why ele can be taken by round nose solid bullets as well,

Michael,
Your Tyrannosaurus rex skull simulation certainly proves the efficacy of the .500/510-gr
FN solid at 2260 fps impact.

Anyone who expects calibration to elephant skull should just kiss his own ass.
You have made a tougher test than any ele skull.

quote:

You have made a tougher test than any ele skull.

Affirmative!

Made some all copper SHARRC FN's for a DR customer a while back. .585" x 750 Grain. While regulating various loads, a 1/4" steel backstop was used behind the target at 25 yards. The FN's punched clean holes through the steel plate like butter. If Babar wore a helmet he'd still be toast.

Glenn

I too was extremely impressed with the little 9.3 320 Woodleigh! I turned around immediately and ordered another box from Midway. Now I have zero plans for hunting the heavies with 9.3, just not my thing, but like I was telling Tanzan, check the POI with the load you are using, and stick some of those in your back pocket, just in case!

We did test the Barnes Banded, it was not so good. Biker and I did that on a quick note one day and I did not photo, or record the data as well as I should have. Seems it only went into mid 20 and veered. It has a very small for caliber meplat.

JWP475

You have that big 338 Lapua and I know you explode coyotes with it, but have you used any of the bullets we tested so far on anything? If so, report please?

You know, for years and years I always get my Midway order in 2 days! UPS. I did not pay attention much to the shipping page, it always goes straight to UPS shipping. I suppose this time, for whatever reason it went to USPS, and I did not check it. I must pay attention next time, this is getting silly!

Michael