OK, Now you See--Ya'll better watch your mouths, My boy LionHunter will be on you like "White on Rice", Just keep it up! See what happens to ya!



HEH..............

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
CCMDoc-

I should have noted: Sarcastic. I know you are a user and fan of the BBWs. I did think others might take your comments seriously, hence the reply.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OK, Now you See--Ya'll better watch your mouths, My boy LionHunter will be on you like "White on Rice", Just keep it up! See what happens to ya!



HEH..............

Doc

HEH..........

AIU

No thanks needed. Yes, penetration is deeper than anything I have ever used or tested with any conventional bullet.

The BBW#13 NonCon is as close as anything I would have ever considered as a 1 bullet do everything in Africa--NOT ELEPHANT--. Hippo, broadside, Yes I think so, but I swear I would feel better with a solid backing it.

Buffalo! I have ALWAYS been an expanding, followed by solid sort of chap! So much so, that I extended that to everything I have done since 2006, even plains game, and bear.

Since the mighty NonCon, I am beginning to sway a bit. It's performance is incredible to say the least. On this last hunt, I wavered back and forth on buffalo. There were times I ran two NonCons on top, only 1 solid below them! While I am not 100% all the way with doing away with solids on buffalo yet, it is becoming a consideration, but I have done it so long, it still might be a while before I can convert!

Everything else? Yes, I am converted, I will go to a NonCon 100% for all other critters without reservation. For seconds and thirds if I need to or can! But if I do my job right to begin with, there won't be much need for seconds. Hmmmm? I do like to shoot, wonder how I am going to break that habit? I always shoot until I run out of ammo? HEH....... Damned things will be full of holes!

NonCon--One Bullet? Very Close!

Michael

Shot today again, will be tomorrow, next day, in fact every day this week I believe. Big Bore Raptors in hand--458 300 and 350--.474 375--.500 400. Shot up some load data today in 500 MDM and the 400 Raptor. Seated deep, short tip to make it fit the magazine, no don't have any BC yet, tomorrow. Max velocity 2635 fps so far with RL 10X and RL 7. Had to move to faster powders, seated very deep, and cannot compress much, that 500 MDM bulges badly. So at 91-92 grs I am maxed out on powder capacity. Right now I am at 2635 and that is it.

I will try my best to get some photos, some terminals, some low velocity shear points, and some BCs on all of these this week, starting tomorrow. I have MUCH to do, and not near enough time to do it in. So if you don't hear much out of me, well you know why! I am on the range from tomorrow morning, until..............................

Dan sent some photos of the 338 200 ESP Raptor at 600 yards, the damned things do shoot when they are right, and they are right. With it's BC you also will get shear at 600 yards at these starting velocities.






I was also doing some work today with the 420 BBW#13 NonCon 458--BC with and without tips, and the 370 BBW#13 NonCon 416 with and without tips. With both of these the effective shear range without the tips were at 150 yds with the 370 416 No tip, and 300 yds with the tip. The 420 458 was 175-200 yards without tip, and past 500 yards with tip. Tip makes a difference! But, again, these are Dangerous Game Bullets--and you are good to go out to 150 yards to achieve effective shear of the blades.

Later,

Michael

I almost had a heart attack when I saw Michael posting 600 yard groups until I read Dan had sent photo! Whew I thought Michael had really overdosed on his meds!

About 0.3 MOA for 4 shots at 600 yards with ESP "Tipped" Raptors.
I'll bet Dan is near ruptured with rapture.

I have some of those .375-caliber ESP Rapturous bullets to try in the ".375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012" aka .375-2012, whenever it gets built.
Hope they are as good as the .338 Raptures.

Also keep that .500 MDM data coming. It should be interchangeable with my "49-bore/.500-caliber/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved of 2010" aka 49-10.

Thanks!

Some people were scoffing at the claims made of the accuracy of these bullets. I hope this helps people see what these can do. Good shooting Dan.

My accuracy with non-cons has been excellent. My Browning BLR, .450 Marlin ctdge, has a number of groups at 100yds with all three holes cutting each other. Same with other caliber raptors.

Now RIP, do we need some in .395?
Max

Michael,

Minimum velocity for shear on the .510 535gr Non-Cons? Fired from a 500NE with a starting velocity less than 2100fps, is this an issue for the 500NE?

Following on from my earlier post on the previous page, here are some photos of a 338 calibre 160gn Barnes TTSX I recovered from a pig.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77909987@N03/

I thought this may interest you Michael458, and 416Tanzan.

My load for my 24 inch barrelled 338 Win Mag is 81gn Reloader 17, behind the 160gn Barnes TTSX, using Norma cases and FED 215 primers. The bullet is seated so that the base is just slightly above the bottom of the case neck, and the jump to the lands is about 0.080". The powder charge is slightly compressed.

I shot the pig at about 90 yards, as it ran away from me. It was about a 90kg Boar, very battle scarred, with thick fighting pads and in very good condition. The MV was 3390 fps, so the impact velocity must have been around 3100fps. The bullet entered the right ham, smashed through pelvis, travelled through a stomach full of grass, penetrated the liver and a lung, and broke a rib on the left had side ribcage just behind the shoulder. The pig expired quickly. It is the only Barnes bullet I have recovered so far. It lost one petal, but was still 144.2gn in weight. All the side on shots I have taken with this bullet achieved complete penetration, and all were quick kills.

I am quite impressed with this little bullet in the 338 Win Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I almost had a heart attack when I saw Michael posting 600 yard groups until I read Dan had sent photo! Whew I thought Michael had really overdosed on his meds!

No NOT ME--I can't shoot past 50 yards, and that is on a good day!

RIP

The Big Bore Raptors--Well, they are big! I have Short Tips for all, so we will find out this week how they do. The .500 400 Raptor has to be seated DEEP in the 500 MDM even with a short tip to fit the magazine. So far, only done pressures and velocity at 25 yds. Today will try and do some Tip Shooting at 50 to get BC both NonCon and Tipped--Then terminals as well. Have to be very careful seating, the 500 MDM wants to bulge with the BBW#13 Solid (Boat Tail) in the bottom, PUSHING powder out and away from center. Can't compress a lot with this bullet, as compared to a flat base.

Accuracy with the BBW#13s? My LONG RANGE shooting at 50 yards regardless of caliber (Big Bores) regardless of load, regardless of weight--all in a hole. Gotta do my part.

Todd

Will try and work on the 535 BBW#13 NonCon soon as I can. I don't think it's an issue, I bet the shear point is down at 1600 or so on this bullet--Lots of ass pushing blades with it. But we will see.


338User

Excellent. Before the BBW#13s I was heavy swayed by all the TSX bullets in various calibers. It does the job, and penetration of a conventional can't be questions, it's the best. Accurate as well.


On the range again today--it's going to be a long long Day!

Michael

Nice pictures of the bullet. I might try the load the next time that I hunt the smallish deer in Calif.

However, you are on the game-size limit with that bullet. In Africa, where we often run into larger animals at the same time as hunting smaller ones, I would want 185TTSX as the minimum antelope round, and as I said, the 225 TTSX is the go to weight if buffalo and eland are around.

Have I missed something, do you now have a "short tip" that when used will fit in the Magazine box?

The short tips are designed for the B&M carts.

This thread just keep going.. I understand why - the best thread ever...


I am going on a dovehunt in RSA in April, after that I have managed to do some hippohunting up in Limpopo.. So far two hippos on the menu, maybe more...
I plan on testing my new 500 Acc Rel with the BBW#13 solids.. Will aim for the 570 grs BBW#13 at 2300 fps... Those hippos will be full of holes from all angles when we are finished with them...

Lol
Hippo bullet trap. Save some of the hide to make sjamboks and bracelets with. That's what I'd do when I get lucky enough to hunt hippo. Take lots of documentation and pics for us geeks.

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
This thread just keep going.. I understand why - the best thread ever...


I am going on a dovehunt in RSA in April, after that I have managed to do some hippohunting up in Limpopo.. So far two hippos on the menu, maybe more...
I plan on testing my new 500 Acc Rel with the BBW#13 solids.. Will aim for the 570 grs BBW#13 at 2300 fps... Those hippos will be full of holes from all angles when we are finished with them...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Nice pictures of the bullet. I might try the load the next time that I hunt the smallish deer in Calif.

However, you are on the game-size limit with that bullet. In Africa, where we often run into larger animals at the same time as hunting smaller ones, I would want 185TTSX as the minimum antelope round, and as I said, the 225 TTSX is the go to weight if buffalo and eland are around.

I agree 100%, I only consider the 160gn TTSX as adequate for small to medium game. Pigs and Red Deer are about as far as I would go with it. For anything bigger I generally choose either the 225gn Barnes TTSX, or the 225gn Nosler Accubond, (or any premium 225gn or 250gn bullet). The 160gn bullet will not be loaded for my African trip (hopefully coming up in the next 2 years).

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Michael,

Minimum velocity for shear on the .510 535gr Non-Cons? Fired from a 500NE with a starting velocity less than 2100fps, is this an issue for the 500NE?

Todd

Sam and I did this little job this morning. Starting at 2100 fps with the 535 BBW#13 NonCon you have a window to 75 yards that you will get shear of the blades. Low End Velocity Point for shear is 1800 fps. Keep impacts to less than 75 currently, and good to go, starting at 2100.

Michael

I am not so happy with the Raptors in .500 and .474 right now. Accuracy is just not easy to come by. I think I have have miscalculated the weight again, and gone too heavy for a Raptor. Damned Raptors HAVE TO BE LIGHT FOR CALIBER. Or at least this is my thought after a grueling, ugly day of failures of all sorts! Seems Nothing went easy or well, and any small success was fought for with great difficulty!

.500 Raptor is 400 grs. Right now, I think it should have been 350. .474 is 375 grs, I think it should have been 325. Might be wrong, but no joy yet. I will keep working on them. Raptors can be a bitch until they are just perfect, then they go!

I got curious about the .500 375 BBW#13 NonCon, with the 400 Raptor not doing so well. Loaded some up, I had never shot many light bullets in the 500 MDM other than some of the North Fork 375s. Right off, 3 rounds in the same hole. Same thing with the new long nose projection 345 BBW#13 NonCon, all in a hole at 50. So I will be taking just a few of these to Africa instead of the 400 Raptor now.

Oh my, well, tomorrow is another day! We will see what it brings as well!

Michael

Raptors love velocity so light is not such a bad thing. I hope the 300 grain 458 raptors work well. Remember the .2 SD works well so that's 300 grains for the 458 and 350 for the .500 to achieve .2SD
Maybe 325 for the 475. Fast and vicious!
With .2 SD the Raptors were out penetrating the best expanding bullets.

Ok...this makes no sense. The .338 caliber Raptors have the following sectional densities: 170gr = .213 / 200gr = .250 / 225gr = .281; while the 400gr .500 = .229 SD. There has to be something beyond the bullet that is causing the accuracy issues.

Could it perhaps be the 12" twist rate in the .500 that is raising its ugly head with the long Raptor length? What is the length of the 400gr Raptor with the tip inserted?

I'm thinking I'll be very happy that I have a 9" twist rate in my .500 caliber rifle...well I will have when it's finished.

I guess we need the tip lengths.
See what lengths will be stable for what twist.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
My accuracy with non-cons has been excellent ... number of groups at 100yds with all three holes cutting each other ...

Now RIP, do we need some in .395?
Max

Of course! See the ".395 Bullets" thread.

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:
Ok...this makes no sense. The .338 caliber Raptors have the following sectional densities: 170gr = .213 / 200gr = .250 / 225gr = .281; while the 400gr .500 = .229 SD. There has to be something beyond the bullet that is causing the accuracy issues.

Could it perhaps be the 12" twist rate in the .500 that is raising its ugly head with the long Raptor length? What is the length of the 400gr Raptor with the tip inserted?

I'm thinking I'll be very happy that I have a 9" twist rate in my .500 caliber rifle...well I will have when it's finished.

I think you are right.
I think the 1:12 twist doesn't manage to stabilize the long 400 grain Raptor.
I would be surprised if it becomes a problem in a 1:9 twist.

I think in a 1:12 twist, the .500 Raptor should be maximum 350 grain as you say Michael. Maybe even as low as 325 grain. I am sure it will penetrate plenty anyway and you will also get higher speed, resulting in better shearing.

We need to have the bullet lengths if we are going to speculate about stability.

I just did a calculation for .510" bullets at 430 grains, using a 12" twist and a 1.9" bullet. The stability factor came out a whopping 3.2 !!! That is 'spin heaven'. Long range shooters and light calibre shooters are happy with anything over 1.3 stability factor. A 1.9" bullet would be two and a half times more stable.

So we need bullet lengths in order to get to the mysteries. It might also be possible that Michael's loads were at a bad frequency node for powder and bullet-in-barrel-time (an anti-sweetspot), and it wouldn't hurt to make sure that the tips were not flying off somehow and adding to yaw.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
We need to have the bullet lengths if we are going to speculate about stability.

I just did a calculation for .510" bullets at 430 grains, using a 12" twist and a 1.9" bullet. The stability factor came out a whopping 3.2 !!! That is 'spin heaven'. Long range shooters and light calibre shooters are happy with anything over 1.3 stability factor. A 1.9" bullet would be two and a half times more stable.

So we need bullet lengths in order to get to the mysteries. It might also be possible that Michael's loads were at a bad frequency node for powder and bullet-in-barrel-time (an anti-sweetspot), and it wouldn't hurt to make sure that the tips were not flying off somehow and adding to yaw.

Tanz and all. The Raptors are simply not that "simple". Seems they have a mind of their own and traditional methods don't really seem to mean a lot with them. I can tell you right now, a 425 or 430 .510 is just not going to work proper. It has to be lighter.

I am working on it again today, tomorrow, Friday, Saturday, and so forth on lot's of things, Raptors included. So I am not done yet. I suspect there are two issues right now with the .500s. Could be loads as you suggest, while not up to my specs exactly after seating the bullet out 2 bands out, two bands in, 5 rounds went into an inch at 50. Not bad, better than seated with one band out, which in the 500 MDM is where it has to be to take a tip. But not quite up to BBW#13 Standards. Better. Solids did about the same. The tips? I don't think these short W Tips are doing good either! Even with a 375 BBW#13 NonCon, with tip is not good. Without tip-X3 in a hole. So tips could be an issue. I had one very wide flier with the tip added. Found that tip laying 25 yards in front of the target. So it had come out. Now what is causing that I don't know, as they snap in pretty tight. If I had good luck and good accuracy with the tips--For hunting I would glue that tip in. After checking terminals with it that way too!

So there are many many factors involved that could be the problem. I have to sort through until I make a discovery one way or the other.

You see, the BBW#13s have been so easy. All of them shoot like crazy, straight up, no worries, nearly any load or powder. The Raptors are a bit more finicky. The ones that get right are totally incredible, but getting some of them to that point is a bitch. I have, Dan has, and many have made the mistake through the entire Raptor process of being too heavy and too long, even though we thought we were light for caliber anyway! This has been the biggest issue of all, and it seems we are continuing that same process in the big bores, too heavy, too long, even in the big bores. Big learning process.

I have a tremendous shooting agenda ahead over the next couple of weeks, I will try and get as much done as I can. I have to put priority on the 500 MDM and a few rounds to do some shooting with, right now that is going to be either the 345 BBW#13 SS NonCon-No tip, or the 370 BBW#13 NonCon Lever bullet, no tip. They are shooting incredibly good, 1 hole at 50. I am trying to get low velocity shear points on all those today, a job in and of itself.

I am going to make a big effort to shoot the 458 B&M with the 300 Raptor. We need a success here, and I believe this is going to be one of them!

Later boys, gotta go, getting ready to burn too much daylight!

Michael

Well, I would be happy with a 400 grain Raptor or tipped non-con in .510".

Let's see: 2750 fps muzzle, 6700 ftlbs,
with only -8" at 300yards using a +2.0" max-arc and still retaining 2150fps and 4080ftlbs.

That ought to take a wildebeest, and buffalo at whatever range one gets into. It will be interesting to see the terminals when the tip is glued. I even had a Barnes TTSX lose a tip once on a flight accross the ocean. Go figure. Defective tip or curious security guard somewhere?

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
This thread just keep going.. I understand why - the best thread ever...


I am going on a dovehunt in RSA in April, after that I have managed to do some hippohunting up in Limpopo.. So far two hippos on the menu, maybe more...
I plan on testing my new 500 Acc Rel with the BBW#13 solids.. Will aim for the 570 grs BBW#13 at 2300 fps... Those hippos will be full of holes from all angles when we are finished with them...

Doesn't the Snipers credo of "One shot - One kill!" no longer pertain to hunting?

465H&H

Michael458 and srose,

I was searching for something entirely different but came across this quote and thread and thought you would appreciate it:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
PWN375, all of the Bridger, Woodleigh and GS Custom solids I used performed perfectly. I did not make an attempt to compare them scientifically this trip, but in the past I found that flat nose solids give about 10-20% deeper penetration on body shots, and cause more blood loss. On head shots, flat nose solids seem to penetrate a little deeper but the difference probably is not significant. However, I did notice that flat nose solids were blowing out large sections of bone from elephant skulls when I used them to brain elephant, while round nose solids just punched through with a normal hole. On a side brain shot with a Bridger solid, there was a chunk of skull blown out from the back of the elephant's brain cavity which I could just barely cover with my hand. That is quite an impressive hole, and keep in mind that the chunk of bone blown out was not even contacted by the bullet since this was a side brain shot and the piece blown out was at the back of the ele's head.

It came from this hunt report back in 2005:

FN vs. RN on elephant

Back then I had a bunch of those Bridger FN bullets for my first 600 Overkill. As usual, AHR's exemplary work allowed them to feed and function perfectly.

Keep up the great exploration

Good Day on the range today....... I managed to get the .474 375 Raptor to shoot all in a hole. Had to seat it out, slow it down a bit, but accuracy is not the issue, tips, no tips, or solid, all in wad at 50. Still, overall a 325 is going to be better. It will not shoot when seated deep enough to allow the tip to fit the magazine. Seated out, does very good, my 1:10 twist I am sure is having effect.

From low velocity shear points on the .510 535 NonCon at 1800 fps, we are changing that bullet to the widest cavity that we can, taking it further out to the meplat. This should drop the shear point to 1600-1650 fps. I am doing all of the .500s the same as well. This will drop the weight by about 10 grs per bullet--I elected to keep the bullet length, and drop the weight, as bullet length and bearing surface is more important to POI with the matching solids than weight is. They will have new Part numbers or ID numbers so as to not be confused with old ones.

More good news--The .458 300 gr ESP Raptor is a big winner. Tipped, NonCon, Solid all in one hole, zero issues, no problems, just great accuracy. I will be doing terminals in the next few days.

While yesterday was a bad day on the range, today made up for it, all wins, no losses!

News on TIPS--Totally New Design! Short, more pointy, new stud design to keep them in without gluing, maybe. When new tips arrive I will be testing. I was going to do a lot of BC work and terminals with tips, but I scratched that plan at this point. No need to waste time with tips that are on the scrapheap!

FYI--Nikons still holding!


Buffalo, I am with you, hell with that sniper one shot deal, you and I, we are CQB, close and personal, fill'em full of holes, sort'em out when they are down!

Yeah Doc, I think 500Grains would be happy with a BBW#13.

Michael

Hey Michael,

Glad you had a better day today. Had to get better.

And great news, for me, about the .458 300gr ESP Raptors. With all three bullets shooting to the same POI, you know I'll be wanting some for this years safari. It should work great on PG after I have the Ele down.

BTW, you need to start spending some time in prep for your safari. Everything will be here when you return.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

BTW, you need to start spending some time in prep for your safari. Everything will be here when you return.

Cheers

Agree.

Michael, get to a break point, update your work and let it be for a bit.

Go shoot something.

IBT

I tell you guys, I get pulled in a 1000 different directions here on a daily basis. Sometimes this is a madhouse, to say the least. No doubt, I get sidetracked on lot's of things, daily.

I pretty much have my 9.3 B&M ready to go. Don't have all the ammo loaded just yet, but getting there. There is a couple of things left to do with it, I want to get terminals with the current short tip in the 210 Raptor I have now, that you have seen in the photos. Then I want to do the low end velocity shear point, again, with tip installed to see if the tip helps lower that shear point some, or not. Rifle is shooting great, 1 hole with tips, without tips, solid. Velocity is good and pressures good. 19 inch gun, 210 Raptor 2900 fps steady with 74/IMR 4320. Pressures 61309 PSI. Once I do those terminals mentioned, it's pack that one away, RTG (Ready To Go).

Then the 500 MDM, 19 inch gun. Hopefully it's on its way home from SSK. Sent it up to have the barrel whacked and whittled down to 19. Also, re-stamp it 375/500 for the brass issue. I really won't be using it a lot while there, if the new 350 Raptors don't make it before I leave, then I will use either the 375 or 345 NonCon, 2600 fps or so for a few things. I will mostly be using the 9.3 for what I am doing this time. First outing for the 9.3 B&M.

Dan and I have been talking a lot lately, doing the tweaking on this, and that to make it better. I tell you we are a fortunate lot to have someone willing to work with us like Dan has. It just does not get any better. It takes a tremendous amount of time, energy, and $$ to get these bullets to where they are, and we are still changing and tweaking to get top end performance! Without Dan's and CEB's support, we would be still be in the "Dark Ages" of bullet tech. It is my sincere hope that it pays off dividends for them in the future, it has to. Encouraging news from him yesterday that the Dangerous Game Bullet line, the BBW#13s, business is picking up a lot, so that is great.

My own .500 caliber NonCons and the .510 NonCons are the last to be tweaked with the wider cavity. The BBW#13 NonCons, from 9.3 and UP should all now meet that 1600-1700 fps low end velocity shear point.

Last week only, I tested the 416 370 NonCon and 325 NonCon for low end velocity shear points. They both come in at 1800 fps, just like the .510. However, I found out yesterday that I had forgot to update my own 416s with the wider cavity that we did well over a year or so ago--same time we did 9.3, 375, 409, 416 and 458s. I had not got any of the newer 416s, I was still shooting the small cavity. I have the wider cavity on the way, shear points will drop I know to that same 1600-1700 fps level. LionHunter, take note of this! I won't have time now, but when I get back I will sort those 416 terminals out, again. This one slipped through the cracks on me!

Going to be a very busy weekend, my buddy Lou is on his way from Ohio today, will arrive sometime tonight for a few days visit. Also this weekend JD Jones is in town, so we will be visiting with JD and his lovely wife Jane as well. And will continue shooting, I don't think we are going to run out of bullets anytime soon! HEH HEH............

Michael

lionhunter

quote:

And great news, for me, about the .458 300gr ESP Raptors. With all three bullets shooting to the same POI, you know I'll be wanting some for this years safari. It should work great on PG after I have the Ele down. Big Grin

This is one of the big things I have on my list to do the next few days with the 300 Raptor, is get POI in relation to the 450/420 BBW#13s. Along with complete terminals, top end, low end, tipped, solid, the works on the 300 Raptor in .458. It is a Winner--good to go.

This is why I think that a .474 325, a .500 350, and I think a 375 .510 is the way to go in the Raptors in these calibers. Gotta be Light! No Choice.

You must remember, these big bore Raptors are not buffalo bullets--or not their intended purpose. Once I start getting terminals on them, then we will know how far you can go with them, but their intended purpose is just like Lionhunter says, for plains game after the big stuff is down and out!

Hoping for good POIs with the bigger BBW#13s! That will be great if we can accomplish that goal! Then you have a "System". But, don't get too excited, this should be IMPOSSIBLE to do. We will see.

Michael

quote:

This is why I think that a .474 325, a .500 350, and I think a 375 .510 is the way to go in the Raptors in these calibers. Gotta be Light! No Choice.

You must remember, these big bore Raptors are not buffalo bullets--or not their intended purpose.

I do surely hope that a 375 grain in .510" will reliably penetrate buffalo. Otherwise, we will petition for 400 or 425 grainers. I cannot believe that a weight cannot be found that will shoot accurately AND will penetrate buffalo (preferably 20+" MTM [Michael's-test-media] penetration)

I like to be free to take Mr. mboga out on the mbuga (open 'black-cotton soil' areas lacing and alternating their way through forests), where shots can frequently be 100-200 yards from the edge of the forest. For me, the basic bullet needs to be 'all-purpose', including 200-yard buffalo. Then, perhaps, a special long-range bullet can be slipped in for longer-range non-dangerous game (250-400 yards) when there is plenty of time. Buffalo from 0 to 200 is a different style of hunting, but one that I enjoy. I want to see RIP's picture of the buffalo reacting at a heart shot as an available option for 200 yards.

How about some 700gr .620 Raptors with matching tips?

DocM,

And some 250 odd grain .423 (aka 10.75 mm) Raptors?

Doc, just bugging you. Incredibly fascinating work you folks are doing.

JHC--You guys know how damned hateful these Raptors are and have been? Had Sam and me saying very ugly things a few days ago. Even had Dan saying ugly things the past day or so too! One thing at a time!

Now Tanz, fellow ought not shoot a buffalo past 50 yards! 50 Yards is TOO LONG---It don't get to be any fun at all unless they are 25 and in!

Got a little more done today with some things. I learned I could use brand new brass, formed only not fire formed. No bumping the chamber, and case head separation! 458 B&M and 475 B&M. 475 using H-322 and 458 B&M using TAC--even though TAC is ball. The 458 B&M has always been an easy loader. Never experienced a separation with it at all. 475 was bad about separating, but with the discovery that extruded powders no separations with the 9.3 B&M, they don't with the 475 either! Hmmmmm! Next test on that will be 416 which is horrible for splitting. This will make loading very easy. Pressure traces are ugly, but velocity is consistent, and no other issues. I am going to stop fire forming these things, just for the sake of fire forming!

In fact one test with these cases was the 300 Raptor and the 450 BBW#13 Solid in .458 today to get a POI at 50. Windage good, 300 Raptor is 3 3/4 inch higher than the 450 BBW#13 Solid. Just FYI for those that might have thoughts of taking both to the field. It can be sorted out.

Next, something that is pertinent to my upcoming shooting expedition!

I am also busy loading 9.3 B&M 210 ESP Raptors for the trip in a couple of weeks! So I just grabbed two of them out of the loaded ones, took them to the range for a couple of last terminals, just to make sure. Both were tipped with the short tips, and performance was superb! I am very pleased with them and I think they are going to hammer the hell out of whatever I happen to shoot! As long, as I follow the rules of engagement, 225 yards and in--Maximum Shear Range for this bullet, my rifle, this load, starting at 2900 fps!




This will do.

Now, I want to show you some test medium and a witness card out of this. Do you recall me speaking about how when the blades are still close to the bullet after they shear, they are working with the bullet to rip and tear tissue, so that it is actually torn, and ripped, therefore more massive trauma, and permanent wound channel for a short distance after penetration of 1.5-2 inches. This seems to work from 2 inches up to 5 inches before the blades have dispersed far enough away from center to become projectiles on their own for another few inches. Captured, a little anyway, here in the wetprint you can see that ripping starting good at 2 inches. The photo of the newsprint is at 4 inches even, and it goes in another inch or so. This is exactly what I have been seeing in animal tissue. Remember the buffalo heart with the big hole through it? This is what is happening when blades are still close to the center with the bullet.





Tissue being elastic, we know that, this is ripped and torn, no more elastic and closing back up for that distance from 2-5 inches or so.

Enjoy!
Michael