quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

... It's a 3 Ring Circus---You need all three of these factors working together--Rifle-Cartridge-Bullet. RCB!

Michael

Rifle--Cartridge--Bullet--Shottistry: RCBS!

Good one RIP! 'Shottistry'...I like it.

Thank you very much, buy a donkey, Jim.

My gunsmithing is mostly limited to using JB Weld on metal rifle parts, or fiberglass stocks.
Here is my fix to prevent the spring from moving forward in the follower slot, and in the floorplate slot,
as noted by Doc M above.
A bit of weak design on Ye Olde Connecticut Classic M70 is thusly fixed, this one is on my 49-10 M70:


The steel I cut my pieces from with a Dremel Tool before burying them in JB Weld:

RIP

R-C-B-S---Excellent!

BuyaTwoDonkeys on that one! HEH.......

Yep, an excellent fix to the spring/bottom metal. I really should take the time to do that to all mine! I have to do it on the Super Shorts--Every single one of them will jump. Just have not had that much of an issue with the B&Ms! But of course, if you do have an issue, it always seems to come at the very worst of moments! Far better to sort that out before the field. Do as I say in this case, not as I did!

M

Next step.

The PH keeps the laser beam on the target and the hunter just keeps shooting in the general direction of the target. All hits.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...663.html?ref=science

Just a little test we conducted the other day with one of the .510 caliber modified first copper 2 band BBW#13s. More of an unofficial test, some of the medium was rather dry and we had not planned an official test. Just some FYI stuff is all.





Sam modified this some time ago, it just never got shot. I think there were 3 of them, we used two in a barrel strain test in 500 Nitro. Velocity, 500 Nitro velocity is all I can remember.

Michael

Crack Pot design: hollow-pointed cup point with undercutting to help it crack off?
Maybe call it the Crack Head Bullet?

Why do the two bands of bearing surface shine like brass both in the groove and land areas?
Is that just fresh copper smear and the bands are bearing fully in the grooves and lands?

Maybe it is a design meant to clean the brass fouling out of Sam's double rifle?

Lightening the nose with that undercutting and hollow pointing would not help stability, though obviously there were compensating factors.

What was Sam's thinking on this?

quote:

I'm looking for a way to put a 1.65-5 power, 5" eye-relief Nikon on a CZ 550 Safari Magnum.
That 1.6-5 Nikon only has a 4.76" maximum mounting area on the tube, but the big CZ receiver has 5.1"-5.2" external ring measurements, if I remember. I will need a back extending front ring mount or a forward extending rear mount.

...

I would like to try out the 5" eye-relief on one of our 416s but I'm having trouble finding a good 'extended' ring combination for the CZ.

A pleasant update while the terminals are are in preparation:

A friend hand-carried from Czechia a one-piece scope mount for a CZ550 magnum to be used for a scope with only 4.75" mounting space. Nikon slughunter, with 5" eye-relief. The mount uses 3.9" for outside ring measurements. It looks nice and it should hold up since it's steel (a couple of years ago I bent and ripped a Tikka aluminum ring retainer pin on a 338.) We'll put this CZ mount on one of our Rigbys and try it out this year among the beesties.

CZ-USA really needs to add these to their services. I will appreciate going from a 4" eye-relief to 5.0" at all magnifications.

quote:

A pleasant update while the terminals are are in preparation:

Yes, we still await a bullet delivery. The boys at CEB have been busy at the shows.



Tanz, glad you brought this subject up again. I have been busy most of this week with real work, and managing to get a few hours of load data completed for the 500 MDM, which basically I had to start over because I had put way too much effort, time and data into RL 10X. RL 10X has proven a nightmare here. The first 5 lb keg I did the original 500 MDM data with was an incredible keg of powder, whatever it was? It took the 500 MDM to places I could not believe, but it did, and it was real, strain gages and case/rifle study matched the whole way. To show you how bad this was on 11/12/2010 while doing RL 10X data in the original keg 500 BBW#13 Solid with 100/RL 10X gave 59608 PSI and 2580 fps. All matched up across the line, tested several times and went on to 102/RL 10X that same day for 2617 fps and 62670 PSI--Zero issues!

I soon burned that 5 lbs up, so the next keg I bought was a little different, about 3 grs less RL 10X than the original, so that was not too much off. Well, I burned that 5 lbs out and now have two new 5 lb Kegs, and they are not even close! Now 81 grains of this new RL10X gives 59251 PSI and 2254 fps. Do you see the issue in this? Imagine my data states to use a 100/RL 10X from the original data? Very Very Bad! I find that incredible difference. Here is the worst part of it--All 4 kegs are the same exact Lot#.

Hence I have dropped RL 10X from the published data completely. Fortunately I still control all the 500 MDM rifles out there, so there were no mishaps because of that.

Now all this is leading up to something of course, I am not just hear to report the RL 10X issues. I have been hammering away at shooting 500 MDM this week, something between 200-225 rounds or so using some different powders and updating the data.

Have also been putting another 500 MDM through the ringer, remember that black matte gunkote rifle I liked so good, that I originally built to sell? Screw selling it, I decided to keep it! So I have been pounding away with it and it has turned out to be an excellent rifle, UNTIL THIS WEEK OF COURSE! Real Dangerous Game Rifles need to be put through the ringer before going to the field. This means some serious shooting to make sure there are no bugs. Sometimes you can do everything in the world, shoot 500 round before leaving, and have an issue in the field, but most of the time, you can catch it on the range if you get just a tiny bit of luck going your way. This rifle is the one I wanted to shorten to 19-19.5 inches or so on my return from Africa last year with the other 500 MDM. But I would have had to sacrifice the front barrel band sight, and I just decided it was not worth the effort. So, I did not send it. SSK puts those things on pretty good, I have only had 1 other rifle that the barrel band loosened up on, and I think it was either a 50 or a 500. Well this gunkote 500 started to lose it's barrel band, it loosened up. I was rather pleased with this honestly, so I continued to shoot it until yesterday and it finally came off! Now I can shorten that barrel. In this process yesterday my bolt came out in my hand? What the hell? Well the little thingy on a Win M70 bolt that contacts the rear bolt stop broke in the notch that it catches on. I have had this happen a couple of times, so was familiar with that and glad it came up now so it can all be done at the same time.

So you see, put a DGR through the torture tests before going to the field! Work those bugs out and hopefully you won't have that problem in the field! This is one reason if someone actually wants one of my rifles, I will not let them have it until I have gave it a go to make sure it is good to go. End of Story, almost.........

I break things on a fairly regular basis, nature of the beast. And as stated, broke a couple of things this week as normal. But what I did NOT BREAK, was that 1X4 Nikon African that was on the 500 MDM rifle that I was doing the load data on. I have two of these, and honestly, I have them mixed up now and I don't know which is which? If the one on the 500 now was the first one, then it now has something close to 500-600 round of big bore on it. It it was the newest one, well it only has the 200-225 rounds of 500 MDM, and I don't know which it is? Either way, neither one of those have broken yet. I have a 2X8 on the lightweight 9.3 B&M and will be using it this year in South Africa, it has a couple of 100 through it now, which much more to come, no issues.

Wow, all that just to say I did not break any scopes this week!



Michael

quote:

I have a 2X8 on the lightweight 9.3 B&M and will be using it this year in South Africa, it has a couple of 100 through it now, which much more to come, no issues.

We've had no issues with the 2-8 compact Nikon on either 338 or 416, and we load both calibres to their reasonable potentials, 3900-4000 and 6000-6200 ft lbs respectively. So the 9.3 B&M looks like a nice match for a compact scope. And 4" eye-relief should be fine for a 9.3. It has always worked for 416 Rigby for us, we're just thinking of taking advantage of a little more eye-relief.

As mentioned, of course, it is the Nikon Slughunter model that we plan to put on our "Kichaa 500" (our Swahili nickname 'Crazy 500'), the 500 AccRel, whenever its ready.

quote:

Nikon Slughunter model

Tanz

Yep, I know, I got one of those when you talked about it some time ago, as you recall. I did use it some, no issues, but right now it's not on a rifle as I have been using the smaller, shorter, 1X4 Africans.

I tell you, I have always been a die hard nothing but Leupold chap! Not anymore, I am absolutely tired of using that life time warranty! Right now I have 3 scopes of mine at Leupold and 1 of Daryls, total 4 sent back a couple of weeks ago. It's a constant issue here and I have had enough of it. The damned little Nikons are looking very good. They have everything going for them. Long eye relief, excellent field of view, small and fairly compact, love that rear focus adjustment user friendly, and for my eyes I can see so much clearer than with the leupolds. I had to quit shooting a rifle of my friends the other day, with a Leupold, I could not see clear enough through it to be sure of the shot. I actually thought it might be broken, it was and is on a 50 B&M. I looks fine now, but will let him take a look this morning before sending him off on a pig hunt this week. I should have just put that Slughunter on it for him?

Michael

Still waiting...

For DocM to test the 300/270 grn CEBs for the 404J or should we go lighter with 250-270 grn Raptors?

Just pulling your leg Doc. Keep up the great work!
Regards

Saeed Ansari

Esskay,

Michael doesn't own a .423 caliber rifle to use with the bullet terminals. My rifle should be finished with the next month or so and I'd be happy to send it to Michael for use in .423 terminal testing.

My rifle might throw the testing results off somewhat though as it will have a 9" twist rate vis-a-vis the traditional 16"-16.5" twist rate used with the 404J rifles. Definately would be nice if Michael did .423 caliber testing to have my 9" twist rifle along with a least a standard twist rate 404J for comparison.

After my rifle is finished I'll throw the proposition out to the forum to see if anyone is interested.

Esskay

Jim is correct, I have nothing to shoot a .423 bullet??? Sounds strange but true. Just never got around to a .423 B&M yet.

We do have some of the first Big Bore Raptors in the works. They are coming and I think I might have them next week sometime. Have CEB working on another rather large order of different things, much is done, tips are in the works, new shorter tips, and we will be back in the test business very soon. Testing terminals anyway, we have been busy enough doing other sorts of work too.

Mighty nice of Jim to load a rifle out! Thanks, depends on what the guys want Jim, I already know what the new BBW#13s will do! HEH..... Probably everyone else does as well!

I do have a little project in mind to begin work on, I will just show you and I think you can figure it out.





Let's see, did anyone guess "Stick Busting"??????

If so, you are correct, we are going to bust sticks, 3 at a time. I intend to off set them, catch the edges of some, flats on others. I am going to begin at 20 feet in front of the impact boxes, I intend to retrieve and study bullet paths. I have over 500 sticks cut and ready to work with now. Don't be surprised that these sort of tests start showing up next week as well.

Michael

Will be VERY exiting to see performance of some FN solids compared to some RN solids regarding deviation after hitting an obstruction in front of the target... Very good idea Michael..

You have been busy Michael
Can you place 2" Un dried branches in your rig there? If a bullet can be stable after striking a wet branch off center that would be a good brush busting test. Compare results against round nose, spitzers and softs would add to the perspective. Thanks for all this enlightening and fun testing!

Hello Micheal,
Try to send a few 12 ga Foster Slugs through there. People for years have called them Bush Busters but I'm pretty sure the branches ruin them in short order.

I love to watch your testing, always very contolled.

Cheers, John

Michael458..u r doing exelent work in all yo testing..KEEP IT UP !!..some of us are listening..& learning..thx man

2ndly..yo tests are based on the EXACT principle that matters MOST,IMO,nl: tht rifles/bullets don't kill..SHOTPLACEMENT does..or not !

This is adequatly proven by Bell killing 1000+ ele's with his .275Rigby(7x57?)..but yet it doesn't make the 7x57 a suitable ele caliber, ever..

Bell's xmple/shotplacement also proves,IMHO:
1.tht he used a proper-constr bullet type(173gn solid?) tht could penetrate well/adequatly in a straigt line
2.tht he knew his equipmt & it's ballistics well..& handled same with devastating/deadly accuracy/confidence..over & over
3.tht he knew his quarry's anatomy well/properly by placing all thse shots right in the brain under diffrent/difficult circ's, every-time
4.tht he was wellprepared, well-practised, & fit(physically & pshycologically) to be able to execute all those ele-hunts fearless & sucessfully, with such a 'small' cal..
5.tht he realized his (the hunter's)absolute resposibility to correctly place that bullet..
6.tht he possessed xelent still-hunt abilities

Fortunatly t/day we have some adequate & powerful cal's & well constr'd bullets,as yo tests r showing.. but even so, no quarry will fall if the hunter does not PLACE THT BULLET CORRECTLY..not so ? If the vitals r destroyed, it MUST fall,.. if not,it WILL run..no 2 ways about it
Simple..but TRUE ?..doesn't matter how powerful or deadly the cal/bullet is..tht responsb remains with the hunter..ALWAYS

Just my 2cents in general

ap

Would love to be there to see those sticks a flyin...good test!

Hey Buddy -

You know I am planning on field testing the new Raptors for you in Africa this August, right? 458B&M and 416Rem at a minimum.

It's 5:30 p.m. here now and my B&M has yet to be delivered. UPS still has some time but it seems they are always late when you're waiting on something important.

Did my recent Elephant taken through the tree branch encourage the construction of the "Stick Busting" platform? I know we don't believe in coincidence, so I'm just saying'.

Ingenious Michael!

If someone complains that they are square and bones more rounded thus affecting deflection, you could drill some holes in a couple of 4' x 2" x 6" boards and stand appropriate diameter dowels (such as round handrail) in the holes. When shot up, a quick pull and replacement.

Looks like you have a similar set up with the square stock.

Another kind of "shooting sticks."
Another excellent experiment in shottistry.

CCMDoc,

Way ahead of you. This was made to use 1 inch round dowels as well.

Dowels will be good to include but their angle of impact will not be constant.

Perhaps slats could be be put on at a constant 30* angle? That would give a target where the impact could vary a half-inch or so and still be the same.

with the pictured device you could set the whole contraption at 30* going away. Then a preceise target trace would be drawn to record deviance. If you really got sophisticated you could find a way to precisely mark the trace on witness cards to simulate direction after a rib and some flesh.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
CCMDoc,

Way ahead of you. This was made to use 1 inch round dowels as well.

I'm always a day late and a dollar short.

As usual Sam, you and Michael are always thinking of the next thing. Excellent!

quote:

Can you place 2" Un dried branches in your rig there? If a bullet can be stable after striking a wet branch off center that would be a good brush busting test

quote:

If someone complains that they are square and bones more rounded thus affecting deflection, you could drill some holes in a couple of 4' x 2" x 6" boards and stand appropriate diameter dowels (such as round handrail) in the holes

quote:

This was made to use 1 inch round dowels as well.

quote:

Dowels will be good to include but their angle of impact will not be constant.

Perhaps slats could be be put on at a constant 30* angle? That would give a target where the impact could vary a half-inch or so and still be the same.

As always, great ideas, good comments and lot's of mighty fine help. However, on these first goes with the "Stick Tests" we have those flat 1 inch thick sticks, and we have over 500 of them right now. So that is what we will be using for the first go with sticks. Later, we will see what we can do with other, perhaps even tougher materials. Right now, this is what we have, and will be working with.

What I have in mind, and we will be doing to begin with unless we learn different, the "Stick Holder" will be 20 ft in front of the Impact Box, or Terminal Box. I will attempt two rounds per test, I will attempt to keep it as consistent as possible, trying to hit 3 sticks and see what happens as the bullet still has 20 ft to impact, and then perhaps even more important than just simply hitting the target, is to dig and see what the bullet does after it hits and how it performs terminally. Of course, I can promise now, that I can't hit all three sticks exactly the same test after test after test! So we see what we see. I will do my best.

Consistency. We need to attempt some sort of consistency, various live branches does not give that to us, even if it might be a better test. Sticks are not to simulate bone or anything, we are looking at what sort of Nose Profiles deflect less and can continue to drive to the POI and still do the job needed.

Once these tests are completed, then depending on the outcome of these, we can move to other types of sticks and or obstacles. What I am after to begin with is this--What Bullets can Pass this test? Too Easy? Too Hard? Are there winners and losers? I hope so. Once this is understood, we take the winners to the next level to find out what fails, what does not fail. Gotta Start Somewhere However, and it has to be as consistent and fair to all as possible. I figure this is a decent start.

Michael

quote:

Once these tests are completed, then depending on the outcome of these, we can move to other types of sticks and or obstacles. What I am after to begin with is this--What Bullets can Pass this test? Too Easy? Too Hard? Are there winners and losers? I hope so. Once this is understood, we take the winners to the next level to find out what fails, what does not fail. Gotta Start Somewhere However, and it has to be as consistent and fair to all as possible. I figure this is a decent start.

Definitely a start. And needed as a benchmark.
My prediction is that all of the solids will pass the tests when the slats are 90* (*=degree) face on. Some of the pointy softpoints will pass, but I would imagine more inconsistency as the slats are turned to an angle.
(PS: I tend to learn even more when a prediction comes up falsified. So it's win, win, on predictions.)

Type of wood makes a difference of course .I lost a deer because of a small piece of dried oak.It was obvious that the bullet went over the deer ,leaving a curved notch in the 3/4" branch from the 44 swchp.
I don't know all the African woods but ASAIK Mopane is a hard wood.
Tests should be interesting !

I think we will use brass rod to simulate Mopane!

quote:

Did my recent Elephant taken through the tree branch encourage the construction of the "Stick Busting" platform? I know we don't believe in coincidence, so I'm just saying'.

Mike

Of course! The spark that ignites!

This has been on my mind for a very long time, but just have not made the effort to get to it with so many other things going on the last few years. I have had my share of "Stick Shoots" beginning with a pronghorn way back in 96! This continued with a Moose in 2000! Then on to buffalo twice on one trip in 2007. I am sure I can think of a couple of more where STICKS have played a role in my field operations. So I have had Sticks on my mind for several years now.

We shot big 4x4 blocks here in either Nov or Dec to see what happens, just a play day, but we were amazed at the results of that.

After seeing your stick issue with the elephant, and many terminals actually winding down, it is time to move to other learning experiences, this is one of those that needs to be explored! We all have and will continue to have this issue if we go to the field! Let's see by damned what is best for us to work with! Let's see what hell we can raise now! Let's see by damned just what makes the grade and what falls to the wayside. What is SUPERIOR-What is INFERIOR!!!!

Let it begin!
Michael

DocM, Sam,

Way back in the day Kynoch used to have a 300 grn 404J load at approx 2600 fps for "English gentlemen shooting in the himalayas". These were made for the standard 1:16 twist that was prevalent.

My thinking is as follows:

Since stability is primarily a factor of bullet length and velocity and thereby twist or rpms, can we not come up with something that is the same length as the original bullets for the 404j with the 1:16 twist, let the weight fall wherever it does. Just asking...does this make sense?

Warm regards

Saeed Ansari

Of course, these 300 grn bullets were used against tigers, and in Africa with somewhat less than expected results

S&M:
Are you going to lock the sticks in place with a mirror image rack on top of them as well as the holder below?
If not, the unpredictable flexion and breakage of various stick types might add some inconsistency ... or will it?

Esskay: You are talking "Chadwick Ram" loads for the 404 Jeffery?
Mr. Chadwick took his 300-grainers at 2600 fps after the Stone sheep of British Columbia in 1936.
His trophy is still considered the No. 1 North American hunting trophy of all time.
He was sensible enough to bring 400-grainer cup&core bullets for grizzly bear too.
That was in pre-Non-Con days ...
A 300-grain CEB Non-Con ought to be a good "lion load" in a 404 Jeffery, or .423 B&M.

I was thinking wet 2" branches held at the base would give the best real world test since they would flex and have some density. This should bring up the twist wars again.

Esskay,

Yes I think you are right on the money with making a non conventional bullet to match your slow twist. So what if it weighs less than normal we are talking non cons here and they will out perform any conventional lead cored soft point.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I was thinking wet 2" branches held at the base would give the best real world test since they would flex and have some density. This should bring up the twist wars again.

Quit F*****G thinking, and come over here and start cutting these 2" branches! While you are at it, trim the bitches down on the bottom two inches to only 1 inch wide so they fit in my slots on the "Stick Holder" as well!


"I was Thinking"--- I was thinking I might have to "Bitch Slap" You! That is what "I was Thinking"

quote:

S&M:
Are you going to lock the sticks in place with a mirror image rack on top of them as well as the holder below?
If not, the unpredictable flexion and breakage of various stick types might add some inconsistency ... or will it?

RIP

The slots are fitted fairly tight, they won't move or flex. Those sticks are cut to fit in, some of them I have to beat them in, so overall they won't move.

M

I'd be happy to Michael :-)
Just need my handy pack axe to lop off the sides a bit. Should be easy. Just need my axe, pruning saw and a plane ticket.
Wet wood does not splinter as much so makes for easier clean up
Ok, I'll stop "thinking" for a while

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I'd be happy to Michael :-)
Just need my handy pack axe to lop off the sides a bit. Should be easy. Just need my axe, pruning saw and a plane ticket.
Wet wood does not splinter as much so makes for easier clean up
Ok, I'll stop "thinking" for a while

HEH HEH........... Well, while you are "Thinking" don't bring me any branches that are 1.5 inches, and don't bring any branches that are 2.5 inches, I will "Cut" you some slack, a 1/10 inch either side of 2, but that is it! All of them must be 10 inches long, and I will need 500 of them to get started. Sharpen your handy dandy Pack Axe and Pruning Saw!



Or better yet, take your own advice, and think up something else!

quote:

I'd be happy to Michael :-)

I know for a fact you would too! You would be right here working your tail off if you could!

M

The next best thing would be pine dowels like that used for closets for use with hangers. Cut to size and shape the base then soak for a couple days but that is still a lot of work. It's hard to get iniform results I would imagine. The best thing would be angling the boards as previously mentioned or using 4x4 posts at 45 degrees from perpendicular to get an entrance and an exit at 45 degrees from perpendicular to give the bullet some stability challenge. The entry I think would give the most gyroscopic challenge so even just those boards at an angle should give some monkey wrench to the bullet path. Will be enlightening for sure. One thing about the 1" boards is that it will not give much side slap to re true the bullet but just knock one edge and blow out the rest.