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Yep Pretty sweet  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Michael the PH i am hunting with wants to test some BBW#13's. He and his partner shoot 458 Win mags-Since I am comping the bullets what weights do you recommend I send Him? For what its worth PH is Paul Phelan. and I need to send him the bullets by 1-27 here in states.He will do a full bullet & hunt report. Thanks SSR | |||
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Nice fireforming bullets. I have been meaning to get a mould made for casting some of my own with .338 base and .500 nose. John Buhmiller used to have a wildcat in the 1950s that used a rebated shank bullet in .375 H&H brass. Like a giant .22 LR rimfire bullet. Rebated shank, full-caliber nose. Inherently stable/accurate with CG forward.  | |||
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Cross 458 Winchester----I would work with the 450 Solid/420 NonCon in 458. Do you need me to send some? M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, PM sent. SSR | |||
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Cross Got it, bullets on the way, should have them Monday or Tuesday! RIP Yes, in fact those shot very well. Had to keep going up with powder charge to get it to blow out proper, or close to proper. Sam and I are getting ready to do some barrel strain work and chamber pressure work in 500 Nitro next week. I received both PTs back this past week, will be checking both of them this morning to make sure they are up and running for the project, then I have several loads I have to get pressure traces on in the B&Ms over the next few weeks. Terminals are on hold right now until I get the range cleaned up from the half ton of shot up medium that Daryl and I chewed up, and until we get new tips and new big bore Raptors coming in, after Dan gets back from Shot Show. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Whew its been a long day. Left home at dark and got home at dark! 100+ rounds of 500 NE shot today by me and Michael did all the computer work. I'm a bad asistant again as I left the range dirty with dacron and foam all over the floor. So much smoke in the air Chrono quit working. Couldn't even see target at 25 yards. I didn't clean up crap!!! Michael took twice his normal meds and didn't even notice. I'll be in the dog house when those wear off. We got a lot done and as usual found out some really interesting things. Michael will have to work a week to get it all figured out and posted. Sam | |||
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God Almighty, I never seen such a mess in all my life! Damned puffs of nasty smelling dacron all over my floor, foam everywhere, smoked my white walls with that black powder crap, it may take a month to get back to normal! It's a damned good thing you took off before the meds wore off and I paid attention to all that! I am going to start working the load data and putting it in some sort of format today. There are 47 different strings of data to compile--That is a lot for those that don't know--Normal session I might run 15 strings, really big day maybe 20 strings of data. All just chamber pressures now for 500 Nitro. Once I get something I will get it out. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Why don't you guys learn to use whole kernal pop corn ?It'll work fine in the large bores and you'll have a nice snack when you're done.Anything else is too messy !   | |||
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How about chuncks of rice cakes? They could be perfectly formed by chopping down an old case and punching them out like cookies! Andy We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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Nah, the newsprint would taste better than the rice cakes mess.  .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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Good Morning guys! Well not anything to report on terminals. Not much of that going on now. Very busy with other projects currently. Will be back on terminals in a week or two hopefully. Waiting on some new bullets to come in over the next couple of weeks or so. In the meantime trying to catch up with much needed other projects. Many are aware of the 500 Nitro project Sam and I are working on, and I am going to post some of that here, as well on the threads down on doubles. I got the data compiled and organized late yesterday and have it posted on the B&M site, under the "Additional Research" main page, then link to the 500 Nitro Data. A direct link to that is here; http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Barrel-Strain.html It's a downloadable PDF document. It is only some chamber pressure work, and that is no where close to completed, just the first leg of it, much left to do. Barrel Strain data has not even started yet, and I have yet to get a barrel strain gage attached to the rifle. That will begin the next couple of weeks I suppose as time allows. So it's an ongoing project, that Sam and I will update as we gather new data. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, Very interesting preliminary results in from yours and Sam’s tests. Is there a chance you could also post the major diameter of each bullet?... Just wondering how true each brand/type is to the .510 groove diameter. Thanks, Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Jim I think the only one measured was the Barnes, and they are always off, at .509 undersized, which for .510 is fine. Of course BBW#13s are all true .510 as are the North Forks. Woodleighs? Will try to include that, and it is especially important when getting to barrel strains. Started a new thread on this info downstairs in double rifles It's called--- 500 Nitro--A New Exploration http://forums.accuratereloadin...061036071#1061036071 Since it is specific and not related to terminals, we chose to do the 500 with a new thread of it's own. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I thought you guys might want to comment on this! I already have!  http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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A shameful disgrace of lack of integrity. I don't know who Keith Woods was before this, but he is damn sure "Nobody" now! Of course he is a lacky for Barnes I reckon. I love this "Perceived" increase of terminal effectiveness of the flat nose solids. That is a dandy line, wonder where he got that from? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael- I hope I didn’t cause you any heart palpitations; it appears that my article raised your blood pressure more than my dagga boy did on my hunt. I hope you are “in shape”. I will not debate the fact that you are far more of an authority than me when it comes to terminal ballistics, with 217 pages on the subject. I’m just a hunter with a laptop, I don’t claim to be anything more or less. I will also not debate that “perceived” terminal performance was an inaccurate choice of words- to be honest, I can’t recall if that’s my word or the editor’s but it’s my byline so I’ll take the blame. For the record, I don’t think there’s a question that wide meplat bullets offer superior performance on game- I know that I’ve found that to be the case with big bore revolvers. The point that I was trying to make in the limited space of a hardware assignment was that I agree with Barnes’ decision to put reliability before terminal performance. A high-performance bullet isn’t worth a damn if you can’t get it into the chamber, and the fact is that many factory rifles won’t feed these bullets reliably. Guys with rifles built by masters like Duane, D’Arcy, and Ralf can choose their bullet knowing that it will feed reliably. Let’s face it, the majority of hunters headed to Africa (Barnes’ customers), will do so with factory rifles that may or may not feed flat nosed solids. I believe that you call them “cheap ass rifles”. Because they don’t know any better doesn’t mean they should meet an untimely death due to a failure to feed. Barnes made a business decision that I happen to agree with- the fact that you don’t should have no bearing on my integrity. Where I come from, calling a man a liar/whore/shill is kind of a big deal. I buy Barnes bullets for nearly all of my own hunting and pay retail- because I have come to believe in the product after years of using their bullets on game. I’m not claiming that I can’t be bought but it will take more than a couple boxes of test ammo to turn me into a “lackey”. The purpose of this article was not to settle an imaginary debate on terminal performance; it was a simple gear review. The fact is that the product worked as intended just as my article reflects. What was not included in my piece, due to space, was that I spent the next 10 days in the thick stuff among cows & calves looking for a particular wounded bull elephant whose tracks we came across. Though I’ll admit that I felt a bit lightly-armed with my .375, it wasn’t because of the solids in the magazine. I felt confident knowing that if things got tight, I had a mag full of solids that would feed reliably. The biggest challenge of writing professionally is saying everything that needs to be said in the space available which, in this case, was quite a small space. The fact that I did not provide readers with an exhaustive treatise on the subject is unfortunate, but necessary. If they left it up to the writers, the magazines would look more like phone books. And by the way, since you’re a stickler for details, there’s no “s” in my name. Best regards, KW | |||
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WoodHit! HEH...... Excellent! Welcome to "Terminals". Very Happy You Can Join in. Far better than having to send the Hunter an ugly letter and check and make sure I no longer have a prescription! LOL.............. Oh, no worries at all concerning my heart, I take meds for that, keeps it from beating to fast! In fact, in the last stress test this past November, they could not get it over 113 beats a minute, no matter what they did. Of course I passed the stress test with flying colors as well. So thank you for the concerns.
The problem is Keith, when you put it in a gun magazine, those that don't know any better think you are an "Authority" on the subject! Now, let's you and I get something straight right off the bat. I could care less what Barnes does with their bullets to be honest. They could start making lead balls for whatever reason and it would have no effect on me. The problem is this, if they made the "Lead Balls" and then started a smear campaign on all other bullets, telling us that lead balls have always been superior to all the other bullets we have been using, and that we just "Perceived" that the other bullets performed better, but now we know that Lead Balls actually are better bullets. Had Barnes done nothing but say "Look guys, there are a lot of "Cheap Ass Rifles" out there, more Cheap Ass Rifles, than decent rifles, so these Cheap Ass Rifles, wont' feed our flat nose bullet, so we are going to make a round nose so it will feed in those Cheap Ass Rifles. That would have been fine, end of story, no sweat, no worries! But they did not do that did they? They started this little smear campaign on the "Perceived" performance of flat nose solids. And they gathered up what they thought were respectable names in the shooting community and probably most likely took a lot of those folks comments, Out Of Context, to move their new round nose solid forward. That is the slap in the face to any shooter, any hunter, that knows better. They could have simply told the truth, and more than likely that would have been the end of it. In your article, that is not the first time the word "Perceived" has come up. I doubt very seriously you wrote it, either put in by the editor or otherwise. It's straight from the "Barnes Playbook", and as I recall it was either one of the gunsmiths or even one of the PHs that Barnes used the quote. Therein lies the issue with your article and your own "Perceived" integrity. To me, it's just another Barnes Advert, with a writer backing it up in an article. This is what it looks like, appears to be, and is perceived to be, not just from myself, but any experienced shooter and experienced DG hunter. In fact, I had not even seen the article, as I don't believe I get Hunter Mag. I get Rifleman. The article was sent by a friend of mine. If you think I am the only person that would "Perceive" these things, think again. Of course I don't mind letting you know about it either. I understand it's very difficult to get any point across in 1000 words or less! Ya see why I could never write for a magazine. I type rather well, so I could have a 1000 words written just saying "Good Morning". HEH... Much less try and get a point across, maybe I like details, or maybe just long winded eh?
While I would NEVER agree to compromise EITHER of those, I am not so stupid as to understand the concept of. There is no doubt I can never change our Cheap Ass Shooting public from buying Cheap Ass Rifles! You are 100% spot on correct, the vast majority of regular joes going to Africa barely know one end of the rifle from the other! Many have never even fired their rifles before embarking on the journey. Many have their PHs sight in for them when they arrive and a lot of them buy their ammo from the Wally World! I concur all the way with you there. And I find it a shameful thing, those folks should strive to do better. How does one go hunt elephant, and have no more knowledge about it, nor put in the time and effort to embark upon such a great adventure I will NEVER understand, but they do it all the time. Next time across the pond, all one has to do is one night around the campfire ask your PH about some of the hunters that have been in camp, and if he has had a few drinks, then the stories you hear are scary! Also hilarious!
Hmmmm? Actually having to think about the lesser of two evils here on this one?  You know Keith, what comes to mind is that these folks having so little knowledge, so little effort or experience in the matter, they would not be able to save themselves if they tried anyway. They are not competent enough to do so. That would be the job of the PH at that point. If they have put so little effort into shooting and working with their rifles to begin with, they are not going to be competent enough to do anything when it gets ugly anyway. Of course, maybe they get lucky, if they don't run away. I have seen them turn and while not running, leave the area and the rest to the PH. Probably a smart move in the end, but honestly, would hate like hell to have that on video eh? HEH........... I was close myself to an untimely death just this past June. The real deal, found myself in a little fray with an elephant. Fortunately I had put the time in, as always, my Winchester M70 never let me down or it would not have been there to begin with, and I would dare say that a BBW#13 Solid, 67% meplat of caliber, had a lot to do with myself not turning into elephant shit because I am quite convinced that elephant had decided to eat me. Of course there are factors involved such as caliber, and even to a point velocity, but that big meplat showed its stuff on that elephants heart at 3 steps whilst I was looking up, as I was on my back doing the shooting. I have those photos of that elephants heart, should you like to see them sometime. But you know, we could debate this incident, other incident proving your point as well I am sure.
Keith, well said! And I hand it to you, you got some balls coming here and saying so direct to me. By Damned, I appreciate that. Well done. But face the fact of how the article is "Perceived" by many, JHC, just look at it! Now here we have seen ALL these words that are repeated in your article, by Barnes in other adverts. Probably still some on their website, I have not looked. So how does that make you look, when I see those exact same words reprinted in your article? What is one supposed to think? How would anyone that knows this "Perceive" any different? I stand behind my words concerning this, It Appears to be nothing but a Barnes Advert! As for your integrity, OK, I will right now give you the benefit of the doubt on this matter. Since you are big enough to come direct to the source that says a lot to me. As for barnes bullets! I started using the Barnes Banded Solid--65% meplat of caliber, and a perfect nose profile in 2005 on buffalo and hippo in Tanzania. My God, there was zero doubt in my mind about performance from that moment on, it was very noticeable on the reactions of 3 buffalo, 1 hippo there. You see, I had used Barnes RN bullets in the past, shot many a buffalo, a few elephants and other assorted critters, with no reactions ever seen, ever "perceived". Not so with the Barnes Banded FLAT NOSE Solid, it hammered. The Barnes Banded profile is (or should I say was) a superb nose profile, near perfect meplat size, and is or was, one of the TOP profiles in the flat nose solid world. Believe it or not, NOT ALL FLAT NOSE SOLIDS ARE CREATED EQUAL! There are 3 top profiles we have identified as being the best on the market, Barnes Banded FN--North Fork--and the BBW#13. North Fork has recently changed their nose profile somewhat and it is now improved on what it was. Those 3 bullets are top of the line. Can't say about feeding in CHEAP ASS RIFLES--but every single one of these feed and function 100% of the time in all my Winchester M70s, which consists of well over 75 + big bore rifles, in various calibers from .416 to .500. Many of which come straight from Winchester and no altercations or work having been done to them. I shoot them as well. To the tune of a few hundred big bore rounds a week, every week. One cannot just Lump all FN into a category, there are some sorry ass flat nose bullets out there as well. The Barnes Banded was not one of them, it was one of the best! I used it, tested 1000s, in fact I dare say, I was the biggest single individual purchaser of Barnes Banded FN Solids that they ever had or would ever have. I shoot solids and buy them by the 1000s, not by a box or two a year! Now concerning your hunt with a 375? Why in the world would you use such a rat ass caliber to begin with is beyond me? And then stoke it full of "RN" bullets is beyond my understanding entirely! Ya see Keith, I am not much of a 375 fan either.  Keith Wood (NO S ADDED), I retract my statement concerning you! You might just turn into somebody after all! Who knows these things! Please do not be a stranger here, I would like very much to hear more from you. I do appreciate the fact you chose to "jump in the fray". I think there is much we could share, and maybe even learn from each other if we take the opportunity to do so. So from me, a Big Welcome, and thank you for stopping by. And stay with us as we embark on other learning adventures. I expect we could have much to talk about, discuss, and even disagree upon. But now that you are here, might as well hang around! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Glad we could "talk it out" and I appreciate the kind words. | |||
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Not to be the "piss-ant troll" that Kamo Gari claims I am,.............................................Which brands are CHEAP ASS RIFLES that we might help educate those that can be ? My Dangerous game rifles are built on Win Mod 70, and Pattern 14 actions. My rat caliber 375H&H feeds BBW#13s FLAWLESSLY and is "bone stock" except for me reducing the 7lb trigger pull. I had some initial issues with the Pattern 14 but they were more related to the follower and have now been resolved, it especially likes NonCons. When are we gonna see .620 Raptors?? We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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I likely am going to piss many individuals off with my comment that all factory rifles that use the same follower, same magazine spring, same magazine box, same feed rail and ramp angles for their DG +.40 caliber cartridges as they do for their .375 and under caliber cartridges fall into the category as 'cheap ass rifles' regardless of brand. I might add though...a trip to a knowledgable gunsmith for an action tuneup can eliminate any feeding issues for you without breaking the bank. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Andy, you know better than to ask me that. If it don't say Winchester on it, then it Qualifies! LOL......... Winchester M70 or stay at home. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Even I've had some nice W70's among my 'rat-calibre' rifles, but they don't seem to handle Rigby cases easily. For 416 Rigby and 500 AccRel a meatier action is desirable. So there are always a few other opinions to keep rifle makers in business. HOWEVER, I will only find out later this year if we will be able to make one of our CZ550's feed flatnose solids in 416Rigby. It was a sad revelation last year to find out that of two 'new' (used) CZ550 416's that we bought, one of them did not feed the flat nose solids! My son and I traded off rifles for whoever was 'on turn' for the next animal. I'm bringing a dremel with me on my next visit to Tanzania. I tried sandpapering the follower a bit, with some improvement, but not enough yet. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Michael: I have so much respect for all the work that you and Same have done. However, it is one thing to say that flat nose solids work better than round nose solids but it is something else entirely to say that rounds nose solids don't work. We know that round nose solids work. People have been using bullets like Woodleigh copper clad steel solids for years with perfect satisfaction. I have a 500 Jeffery. It feeds perfectly with Woodleigh softs and solids and I wouldn't use anything else in that particular gun. I understand the point that Keith was trying to make and I don't think Barnes decision to go back to the round nose banded solids to insure reliable feeding was treason. I am guessing their round nose banded solids will get the job done. One more point. To suggest that this guy has a "A shameful disgrace of lack of integrity".... C'mon Michael, that ain't right. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Shooting round nose bullets I liken to gambling. Not sure of the outcome. Especially with DG. Flat nose bullets I liken to smart investing with your hunt. More sure of the outcome. Why gamble? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boomy: I don't have any African experience but I can tell you that a copper clad Woodleigh round nose steel solid will whiz straight through a big bull bison from most any angle. I love the flat nose solids in my doubles. They are better. However, in some bolt rifles they cause feeding problems. In those guns, I would not tamper with the gun. I would just use a round nose solid and never give it a second thought. From the Barnes web site: Harry Selby, Professional Hunter “While my experience with flat nosed solids is limited, I have never noticed the difference between them and the round nose. What is more important is the fact that the round nose construction feeds reliably always, and that the construction is sound as your Barnes Banded Solid is.” That's good enough for me. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Feeding is the job of the gun manufacturer and or gunsmith. Who hunts DG with a gun that does not feed reliably? They are a Darwin award candidate in Africa. The BBW #13 nose profile I think is one of the best flat nose solids in terms of feeding design. It has a conical nose and radius that feeds well. I've never had an issue personally. Some are being sent to Duane to get his professional gunsmith opinion. You can follow that thread under "Making it feed" in the gunsmithing forum. All things have to work together but as Michael say the bullet does the heavy lifting. If a bolt action rifle does not feed the BBW13 bullets I would say there is something wrong with the gun and if someone hunts with a rifle that cannot feed them I would say there is something wrong with the hunter. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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I am surely glad that michael458 types with alacrity. Thus he is able to have more time to get his work done yet still post great thinking on this subject of terminal ballistics. "Perceived" is what it is all about. Scientific experiments "perceive" results that are reproducible. The "perceived" superiority of FN solids over RN solids in terminal performance is what it is all about. Now just to show I have no ass kissing agenda here: The .375 caliber is the greatest caliber ever, and no other larger caliber is needed. Rifles of 10 pounds field ready with 26" barrels can be easily handled by anyone and will likely produce better accuracy than 7 pounders with 18" barrels. Shot placement is the most important factor. Back to topic at hand: Round Nose solids are absolutely more likely to veer off course and negate the best efforts at shot placement. The FN solid is absolutely the better solid. I am not selling anything. | |||
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Seems to me that even if your gun doesn't feed FN solids reliably, the first round in the chamber can be a FN solid followed by RN solids, if needed. Isn't that first shot the most important. At the velocities I'm shooting, I don't believe penetration is a problem, but lack of perfect straight-line penetration could be compromised with the RN design. But, I figure the second, less secure, shot at a running target with a RN may just as likely curve into the brain as away from the brain. Question: Possibly, using that rapter plastic tip, maybe shortened, in the HP Non Con solid would solve the feeding problems of some guns - any thoughts? Besides after those petals come off, don't the Non Cons essentially become deep penetrating, flat nose solids? Regards, AIU | |||
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Opinions are like assholes; everyone has one and some stink while others don't. If one cannot differentiate between opinions and factual statements based upon the use of the scientific method, then one cannot participate in the discussion. Michael458 adheres to the scientific method in his research, to wit, the results, must be reproducible, as they are. As to opinions, it is mine that the .375H&H is the most overblown, useless african caliber when measured by todays standards; much better options exist. Not an opinion here, but my 20" bbl Savage Precision (Police) Carbine (Mdl 10) will shoot the .223Rem with as much accuracy as is needed for my purposes as any rifle with a 26" bbl, while being lighter and more maneuverable. Anyone who would allege differently knows not of what they speak and is either inexperienced or simply blowing FUD. And although I have yet to receive my SSK .458B&M, I fully expect it to shoot as accurately as my RSM .458Lott, while being a helluva lot easier to carry and employ in the bush. Even the worlds militaries understand the concept of shorter and lighter. RIP is selling something, and I call it FUD.  Some of the above is my opinion, while some is fact. I feel better now. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Dave, exactly where do you see that I said that?
Exactly my point! Ugly "perceived" dirty little word! One can make a load of crap out of that one word! Thank you Dave. But, I am a big boy, and need no chastising from you. I stand behind my response back to Keith Wood (no S Added) with respect. Seems Keith and I have come to an understanding, and that is the end of the matter. Right-Wrong-or In between, it's of no import now. We move on. We all know that a proper designed solid---and here are the 3--BBW#13--North Fork (especially new angled nose design at 68% meplat) and the OLD Barnes Banded Solid are the 3 best Flat Nose profiles ever designed and there is no doubt concerning the increased performance in straight line penetration, and in trauma inflicted up front by the flat nose meplat over any round nose ever shot. Proven in the lab--In the Field. End of story. To be told otherwise is a farce. And that was the real issue, not the "Perceived" one! I will concede this concerning 375 caliber. You know I despise them, make no mistakes, everyone knows this that knows me. Take one of those 375s and put a BBW#13 NonCon in it--You have a different sort of animal! Not the 375 that grandpa used, and that's a fact! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Did you see were WL is producing a rounded plastic cap for their hydrostatically stabilized solids to help solve feeding problems and increase the BC. Any thoughts? | |||
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 LionHunter: Me selling FUD? FEAR UNCERTAINTY DOUBT  Quite the opposite is the case, you are confused. Or did you mean FUD as in Female Urinary Device? No, I am not selling those either. Please do not tell me that I am only allowed to shoot 7-pound rifles with 18" barrels. What are you, the "Rifle Police?" It seems to me that you are the one pushing FUD here. | |||
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Then get it FIXED, it's not working right. Keith IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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MIchael, et al, Have you done any long-range testing with the rat gun sized solids and non-cons? The Barnes .375 TSX/A-Frame and BArnes Flat nosed solids were/are a popular combination for the mixed-bag rifle guys and I wonder how re placing both with CEB's or maybe a TSX/A-Frame and an #13 would do? | |||
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Short answer! No. Years ago when I was carrying various 338s and 358s on safari as light rifles, I had at least 2-sometimes 4 different bullets close to POI at 100, and worked with that many years. One of my favorite rat guns was a 358 STA, Win M70 of course. I had a 250 Hornady at 1.5 hi, 280 Swift at 1 hi, and a 310 Woodleigh Soft and FMJ at center at 100 yds. Never used the 310s, but would many times switch back and forth with the Hornady for light animals, impala that sort, and the 280 Swift for heavy, wildebeast eland zebra that sort. Now every rifle for DG taken out would have a soft and solid matching or close POI at 50. Many times that would be a Swift A and a Barnes Banded before BBW#13s and North Forks. At times it would be a Woodleigh/Barnes. That was common for me through the years. Sometimes it was quite a challenge as well getting some of these combinations to POI. Today in all my DGRs it has become a no brainer--Whoever thought of taking a BBW#13 Solid, making a NonCon out of it with no other changes was a damned genius or just plain lucky, one of the two, I lean more towards pure crap house luck than anything. But those two are same POI and you can't screw it up. Oh I reckon if you used different powders and vastly different velocities you could but every single rifle I have tried that is same POI with the same load, or even an extra gr or so with the NonCon, worst that happens is the NonCon moves a tiny bit higher. The North Fork FPS and CPS are very close, but North Fork elects to increase the length of the CPS to match weight of the FPS, making the CPS a tiny tiny big longer to make up for the cavity in the nose. While not a mission at all, it's just a bit more to get same POI sometimes, not all the time, sometimes. I dare say that if North Fork would only take a FPS and put the hole in the same bullet, while it would not be the same weight, it would be exact same POI at 50. I never owned or shot a 375 to amount to anything. The most experience I had was with Sams 375 B&M and I got bored with that nearly before starting and sent it back with him one day. Getting POI at 100 yds with various bullets is a hell of a chore. Say a Swift, Woodleigh, Barnes none of which have the same length or bearing surface it is a mission, it can be done, but not always. I think Dan and the boys have done some 375 work with the BBW#13s and they are near the same hole at 100, with the NonCon being slightly higher by 1/2 inch or so as I recall. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Keith--Excellent and 100% correct! That is my answer, short version as well. This is only slightly different from making sure your "carry gun" feeds 100% of the time. Your life can depend on it. However, with a carry gun, choice of bullet, while important, is not of top priority as ones intended purpose is self defense of 2 legged critters. Not nearly as tough a job under most circumstances as an animal that weights 1/2 ton to several tons more. If one has 100% reliability in ones personal defense gun, along with a bullet that will insure penetration, it's of little import considering the mission of a personal defense gun. Here, reliability first of course. As we move to a true DGR, it not only has to be 100% reliable, it has to be 100% reliable with a bullet that will under almost any circumstances increase the shooters potential success, and accomplish the mission at hand. To increase ones success in the field one wishes to take the very best bullet that one can use to accomplish this. Here the bullet has to do the work intended. So one takes no chances and uses a bullet that has the higher percentage of potential success. We all know many hunters that go across the pond to hunt DG with a rifle and bullet that is not reliable 100% of the time. I have seen it many many times, over and over again. We have discussed that many times, and suspect it will be the subject in the future as well. It truly amazes me, and when I first started hunting many years ago, it was a shocking revelation. While I had spent hours, days, months on the range testing, getting a rifle ready, working with bullets and loads, I saw chaps that had never even shot the rifle before leaving on a trip? I was shocked to say the least! Many of those are not shooters, gun folks, or even hunters really. Many there just to impress their friends back home or many other reasons unaccounted for. So it happens, more frequently than not. I don't think these people should do such, but what I think matters little. Most of the time I have kept my mouth shut, and let them carry on, and have little concern about their welfare, as long as they are not around me at the time! How some PHs carry on with such I can't fathom, they have one hell of a hard job that I would not want. I would be out of business in no time at all if I had their job! I would have few clients I think! I think they should have two days of classes mandatory before a DG Safari, to make sure the client knows how many rounds his rifle holds, to make sure he knows how to load it! To make sure he knows which end the bullet comes out of. And so forth...... OK, starting to rant...Rant off. My opinion, a real true Dangerous Game Rifle should be 100% reliable with a proper designed bullet for the mission at hand, with a proper capacity cartridge that can drive that bullet to beyond adequate performance, well into "Stopping" performance. It's a 3 Ring Circus---You need all three of these factors working together--Rifle-Cartridge-Bullet. RCB! End of rant! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OK OK---Not quite finished with my rant yet! These things mentioned above, and in particular "Reliability" of the platform, or rifle. Must be worked with, and used extensively BEFORE going to the field with them. They must be worked hard, just as you would under field conditions. Snatch that bolt back, if it's a bolt gun, with authority, push it forward, with authority, load magazines full capacity and work the hell out of the gun long before leaving on a DG hunt. And many times! Shooting 3-5 rounds to make sure it's sighted in won't do! And, since this is a man made item, even all this does not insure that nothing will happen or can happen in the field! Ole Murphy is out there waiting and if at all possible will strike, and does. One must do ones dead level best to follow the rules, and there are many rules to consider. One extremely important rule is to make that First Shot Count! If you do this, then if there is an issue with the second shot, then you are way ahead of the game. This happened to me this past June in fact! With my own 458 B&M Winchester M70. I had shot this rifle well over 400 rounds during a couple of months before taking it to Zimbabwe. Load testing, bullet testing, rifle testing. It fed and functioned 100% of the time, I had worked it hard as possible with zero issues. First cow buffalo with it in Zimbabwe was that frontal heart shot on the cow, 35 yds or so, first shot hit hard as hell, buff turned went about 10 yds piled up stone cold. From that first shot, I had jammed the damned rifle hard trying to follow up with a 450 BBW#13 Solid. ?????? Yes, I was very disturbed at this! But I had enough experience with these sort of things to lead me in the right direction. The follower spring had finally jumped over the little hump in the front of the bottom metal! This caused the follower to put the nose of the next cartridge in the magazine, nose down. No possible way it could feed in that position, anything, round nose, flat nose or pointy nose! Simply moving the spring back into position, putting one hell of a bend downward on the front of the spring to hold it in place in the bottom metal solved the issue then and there, no more problems from that point forward, and even now. Murphy had a chat with me! Many years ago I was going on a cougar hunt. Taking a S&W 4 inch Mt Revolver in 45 Colt. I do a lot of double action shooting with revolvers up close, and decided I would be better off with a bit of a trigger job. Sent the gun off, had a great double action trigger on it when it returned. A few days before leaving for Utah, I figured I best shoot this gun a bit to make sure it would bust a primer. Took 100 rounds out to the range, shot all 100 of them double action, 100% reliability, no failure to fire! Good to Go! While out in Utah a few days looking for kitties, we took lunch out in the wild one day and decided to pop off a few long range shots at some rocks some distance. Well, I shot the 6 rounds that had been in the gun since arriving, all double action, 100% reliable no issues at all. A day or two later had a big cat in the tree! Went up under the cat with the Mt Gun and squeezed off the first round double action. Click! OK, quickly again, Click? OH CRAP........ Ok being stupid I did the same thing twice more, click, click, then it dawned on me there was a problem here, so I reached up with my left thumb, cocked it back single action and BANG. Cat went flop. During that 106 rounds of firing the set screw for the main spring had come loose, and turned 1/4 turn, just enough to make it go click and not bang on double action! Things can happen, even if you prepare for these things, even if you extensively prepare, they can still happen. What do you think the odds are if you do no preparation at all? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Rifle--Cartridge--Bullet--Shottistry: RCBS!  | |||
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Shooter (shot placement) Gun/cartridge (these should act like one machine with many parts) Bullet 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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