quote:

I regret not getting to meet more of our AR Brothers! Seems I missed many of you! I did get to visit with my buddy Mike70----whatever the rest of those numbers are (HEH--Can't ever remember all those numbers) LOL...... Damn, why don't you pick a caliber or something, I can remember? And of course his wonderful wife Katherine, and got to hear all about the really desperate, gruelingly difficult, 3 HOURS they spent in a leopard blind to shoot a stinking ass leopard! Thank you, really wanted to hear all about that again! I hate leopards! Not sure I like Mike anymore either, 3 hours! Give me a break!

Hey Buddy,

You know I will never be tired of telling you that story. 70+ days and nights Ha Ha.

For those of you who know Michael458, you know his patient, calm, laid back manner, probably lies around watching TV 8 hours per day.

Well I knew he suffered in leopard blinds for over 70 nights on multiple hunts before finally shooting Mr. Spots.

I on the other hand I shot mine in daylight the first time in the blind.

My wife tells Michael "and we had to sit in the blind for almost three hours".

He still likes her, but I think he hates me.

Good seeing you buddy, and everybody else at the show and the dinner.

How about Mike375H&H?

Mike375H&H that is great! Gives Michael458 another reason to grind his teeth when talking to you about leopard hunting!

Hey Sam,

It was nice meeting you. It is worth going to DSC just to meet fellow AR members, and the show is great to boot.

Even better would be to add CZ MikeCZ375H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

Even better would be to add CZ MikeCZ375H&H

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Man, just stay plain old Mike70 something or nuther! Hell I know who you are, don't change it to that mess above!!!!!!!!!!

HEH.............

Hi Lane!

I have not got to it yet, but I was going to give our buddy Prof (Max) a special thank you for the mighty fine little glass he had for me--I like little glasses for drinks and such, have a bar full of them, he actually didn't know that I sorta collect those things, it has a nice spot in my bar, and I wanted to take a photo of it and post, but just have not had time, will get to it ASAP. Thanks Max!!! And was damn good to see you again too!

Well boys, off to the range now. Sent Andrew back to South Africa this morning, now me and Daryl will be going to work. First have the HOPEFULLY final version of the modified 223 Raptors to shoot, test stability this morning, accuracy with tips, without, all goes well, new terminals today with those. Then it's Hog Bullet time, great big FAT mean looking cast 458 bullets, then we start with testing BC and tips on the big bores this week, and much much more.

Also other good news, both PT II and PT 1 are on the return, two new computers to run them with, everything is up and running perfectly and hopefully will remain so once they arrive here. So it won't be long before back in the pressure business to!

Later!
Michael

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...youtube_gdata_player
Y'all seen this yet?

Boomy

Good Video eh? I have the DVD version and I am impressed. I am going to get the guy that did the work to do one on the B&Ms if I can! Very good.


KEITH!!! HOG KILLER!

I need some help! I am not being successful finding the different velocities you wanted to test the big 548 gr 458s! We plan on trying to put this together for tomorrow or Friday latest, so if you can remind me of the Impact or Muzzle velocity you want that would be good. I know I have it somewhere but........?????? Don't know where?



Did the entire test with the new .224 40 gr and 50 gr Raptors. Remember, these are more like BBW#13 Raptors, bands in higher position for tips. Results are VERY VERY good, and I see these as a GO! Both 40 and 50 performed very excellent. The 50 is not stable with a tip added in my 1:12 twist--It is stable in 1:12 without the tip. The 40 is stable and shoots extremely well in 1:12 and the 1:9. 50 with a tip is excellent in 1:9 twist.

Terminals--Incredible for a 223! I will try and post in the morning.

Long day tomorrow, range work again! HEH............

Michael

Michael,
Very interested in this .223 work. Had my daughter Upstate this past Sunday shooting my .224 WBY Mag at dangerous oranges. Range smelled like a Tropicana explosion

The reasn that this is interesting to me is that I'd like to get her a Left-handed Youth model of some bolt gun in .223 for deer in PA next Fall. Unlike NY, PA doesn't have a minimum caliber for big game and I'd like to use the most effective projectile possible since I'm not a fan of sub .243 caliber bullets for deer.

Would be good to get some tests in say a 1 in 9 twist with the tipped 50 grain 22
Excited to see results.

quote:

KEITH!!! HOG KILLER!

I need some help! I am not being successful finding the different velocities you wanted to test the big 548 gr 458s!

mv ~1650 & 2150

Keith

Doc

Hi Pal! Yes, while .224 most certainly is not big bore, these do have a bearing for many of us. Since we use big bores while on Safari, many of us have our kids and wives with us. Some would like to, or have done some shooting in the past, but not many with the big bore rifles we carry.

Some of us like LionHunter likes to use a 223 for the small antelopes while on Safari for elephant, and I am sure there are more doing similar.

For sure the smaller bores have a bearing on what we do here in Big Bores, so keeping with tradition and not having time to keep up with so many threads all over the place, here are the newest and I think the last prototypes of the 224 Raptors.

Later will try and get some photos of the complete bullets, with and without tips. Basically the New .224 Raptor is a BBW#13 Nose profile, with bands moved forward so a tip can be added and used in the magazines of most rifles.

There are two of them-- 40 gr Raptor and a 50 gr Raptor. Both are impressive. And not much difference in Terminal Performance at the velocity I ran both of them.

Before doing terminals we-- MeplatFS (Daryl) and I did stability and accuracy work with both of them, fairly extensive, 5 rounds each, no tip and tip added. With that we gathered muzzle and downrange velocity for BC estimates as well. After we gathered this data, we loaded up and did terminals. I did the loading, and Meplat did all the shooting yesterday.

First up, 40 Raptor. We used the old Remington Sendero I have had forever or there abouts, I am told it has a 1:12 twist, so until I learn different that is it. The 40 Raptor shot extremely good in the Remington (I hate to even say the "R" Word), but it is true. With the tip added, it shot one 5 shot group .115 inches at 50 yds. Basically in one hole. I had no special loads for these tests, I loaded 28/TAC for the 40 and 27/TAC for the 50 Raptor. Just load and shoot, see what happened.

Those of you having slower twist rates than 1:9, you will not come short with the 40 gr Raptor. We know that BBW#13s like velocity, and so does the Raptor. The 40 let Velocity work in it's favor to out penetrate the 50 Raptor at the velocity I was running with the A-Tip added.







For those that have the 1:7 to 1:9 twist barrels the 50 Raptor is a hot ticket.







Trauma inflicted was excellent. Of course not like a big bore, but for a 223 it would be very impressive. Terminals were DEAD ON CONSISTENT-- Shear at about 2 inches as normal, blades hanging rather close to the center wound channel to 4-6 inches, all working together to provide this trauma. All penetration of the remaining bullet dead straight, most found in the test medium dead straight forward, a few found just slightly cocked one way or the other, but that is norm too right at the end of penetration. No veering off, and no tumbling or turning. Typical #13 Performance, Excellent!

With the experiences I know some of my guys have had around home here with other BBW#13s and Raptors, Sam's experiences with them included, on deer sized animals, I would have no issue at all recommending these for those of you using 223s on this size animal and down. When it comes Mercedes turn at impala and such, this will be an EXCELLENT CHOICE, and the only one I would choose for such a mission.

My recommend to CEB is to Make these Production Run Standards for the .224s! They are both "Good To Go" in my opinion!

Michael and this weeks trusty Test Assistant Meplat!

(Which he is turning out to be an excellent Lab and Test Assistant--Even SWEEPING the Range Floor yesterday)

Excellent!

That's the ticket and now just need to get her the lightest, handiest bolt action .223 for a lefty that I can find.

Turning out to be tougher than I thought.

Excellent work, Michael.

I ran your velocity figures into some formulae and came up with the following BC's:

40 grain BBW#13, NO TIP, BC 0.082
40 grain raptor, talon tip, BC 0.177

50 grain BBW#13, NO TIP, BC 0.104
50 grain raptor, talon tip, BC 0.204

The results look good for a ballpark figure, there is internal consistency. With these little pellets the talon tip approximately doubles the BC.

That being said, it should be pointed out that the little bullets for a .223Rem or even faster catridges have a rather low BC, even with the talon tip. For the 50 grainer at 3400fps, a 10 mph Wind drift at 300 yards is over a foot (13"), and the bullet drops below 2000 fps just a few yards past 300 yards (325). The 40 grain bullet has even more wind drift at 300 yards, 14.6" sideways.

Anyone shooting with any wind should probably limit things to 200 yards, or plan on a larger calibre with better BC. That's why they invented 270 Winchesters and 243 Winchesters, and their sisters. Now most of the time that I'm walking a forest, I enjoy a slight breeze in the face for comfort. So a person needs to look at the big picture. Certainly, sitting in a treestand and shooting within 100 yards will be deadly with these little things.

PS: I'm not against the .224". 25+ years ago my son probably shot about 15 oribi and quite a few spurwing geese with a .222Rem. When he was 11 we graduated him to a 270 which he liked a lot better. The cob, warthog, and hartebeest joined the oribi in rueing that day.

Michael,

Not trying to cause a dispute here...just posting a question for clarification.

If I understand correctly from your post and the photographs...the new 40gr and 50gr .223/.224 bullets are not the double ended BBW#13 ESP Raptor style bullets but are truly just standard BBW#13 NonCon HPs with the upper driving bands moved closer to the nose - basically what was done for the lever gun BBW#13 bullets.

If I understand correctly this was done because the 50gr/55gr ESP Raptors were not stable in slower twist rate barrels...even though the 40gr ESP Raptors were stable in your slow twist rate Remington.

I was reading a study some information on another forum yesterday relating to the long for weight target bullets for the .223/.224 caliber rather interesting the fast twists required even for the 60gr HP boattail Spitzers...not counting the recommended <6.5" twist rate to handle to 90gr target bullets. Here's the link...'Bullet Choices' about midway down: http://www.accurateshooter.com...ridge-guides/223rem/

I guess I'm basically commenting that if the new-revised 40gr and 50gr .223/.224 caliber bullets aren't the true ESP Raptors why not just call them BBW#13 NonCon HPs? Or just produce the original ESP Raptors and inform those desiring to use the 55gr ESP Raptor bullets that they require a minimum "xxx" twist rate to stabilize the bullets. Seems simple to me but then perhaps it's not so simple.

Ok...that's all...

Why all the talk about rat rifles on the Big Bore Thread? Who gives a rats ..... Heh, Heh as Michael would say!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Why all the talk about rat rifles on the Big Bore Thread? Who gives a rats ..... Heh, Heh as Michael would say!

Todd,

Absolutely nothing...except that Michael, Sam, and Dan have had some issues relating to ESP Raptor bullet length and "for lack of a more knowledgable insite" traditional barrel twist rates in the <.375 caliber range.

I for one am hoping that they'll find the "majic" relationship between caliber-bullet length-"standard" twist rate for the rat calibers so that when I go to the .416 caliber through .510 caliber ESP Raptors there won't be any issues with the bullet instability - final bullet weight be d..ed!

Myself, I'm using 9" twist rates in my .423 caliber and .500 caliber rifles so I likely won't have any stability issues where - depending upon final bullet weight/length - someone using a traditional twist rate...such as the 16.5" traditional twist rate for factory .423 caliber chamberings just might.

Just saying...that's my story and I'm sticking to it!

quote:

I guess I'm basically commenting that if the new-revised 40gr and 50gr .223/.224 caliber bullets aren't the true ESP Raptors why not just call them BBW#13 NonCon HPs? Or just produce the original ESP Raptors and inform those desiring to use the 55gr ESP Raptor bullets that they require a minimum "xxx" twist rate to stabilize the bullets. Seems simple to me but then perhaps it's not so simple.

Michael,

As a follow-up comment to this…it would appear that the current BBW#13 NonCon HPs designed for the .458 caliber and .500 caliber lever guns with their driving bands already moved closer to the HP nose might work just fine with the Talon Tips inserted in bolt rifles of these two calibers. Have you tried this yet to determine whether they’d fit within the magazine box as well as their accuracy potential?

Thanks,

No worries Cappie. I'm just doing what I do best. Being a smart ...!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
No worries Cappie. I'm just doing what I do best. Being a smart ...!

My wife regularly accuses me of exactly that as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Why all the talk about rat rifles on the Big Bore Thread? Who gives a rats ..... Heh, Heh as Michael would say!

Todd

You are correct, but the problem is, I am just too busy to keep up with several threads on other forums. So George has been kind enough to not ban me or cancel me out! And, I do my best to tie things in if I can as well, you know, the wife and kid line! HEH...........

Cappie, correct, basic BBW#13 with bands forward. Honest? Just got tired of dicking around with it! HEH........... Also, the questions about a solid and 223 and this that the other, most just really want a NonCon in 223, and that keeps other things quit as well.

Standard Raptors continue in most all other calibers other than those deemed possible handgun calibers.

No test work today, busy with lot's of other things however.

Keith--Big problem with the 548 Cast bullets--can't get them to chamber at nearly any seating depth in my 458 Lotts????? Have tried almost seating them to the mouth and still a no go.
Ogive is too big for my rifles??? Have you been using these in 458 Lott????

Michael

I have a few suggestions about the 22 Raptor. I'll bounce it off Dan next week.

Michael,

The problem with seating those cast bullets and getting them to chamber is probably because they are larger than .458. I have had that same issue with a lot of chambers that aren't large enough to handle oversize cast bullets. Measure the bullets and see what size they are.

Sam

Sam,
I'm getting ready to load come of the CEB's in 500 gr for my .470. I will be trying 106 gr of IMR 4831 to see where they shoot compared to the rifles regulation.
Please forgive me for a stupid question but with these, am I supposed to seat them all the way past the top driving band into the cannelure over the top band or under the top band? Some of the papaerwork I have received showed a picture of just seating the bullet to almost the bottom of the top band.
Thanks for your help and Michael's as well.
Rick

Boomy, leave the 22s alone! End of Story! They shoot great, with or without tip, terminals are great, move to the next project!


Sam

Yes, must measure, have not done so. No time. None of my Lotts will chamber them, and I need the Lott to get 2150 or so, which would not be an issue. I have hardly nothing sticking out of the case of a 548 gr bullet and still won't go in and close.
???????

Rick

I like seating to the bottom of the top band, and crimping in that groove. That should work, however you never know with the double, Sam had one or two doubles, I think the 500, that had to be crimped over the top of the top band. I would try in between top and second band down first, then see.


Tomorrow we are going to attempt some TIP work and terminals as well. What I want to do is show you the difference between terminals at 50 yds with and without a tip added. You know my thoughts on first round in the chamber with the tips, more velocity, more terminal performance, follow on with either NonCon or Solid BBW#13s after the first round. We hope to see if that bit of extra velocity is worth while or not!

Hammer down and move forward!

Michael

Rick,

In some guns you need to seat the CEBs past the top band but most you can leave the top band out if you want. Seat first crimp in a second operation. The purpose of having the NE band spacing is so you can adjust seating depth to find the best place for your gun to shoot and to provide a good crimp groove.

Sam

Michael, Sam and the CEB gang (Dan & Nathan),

Going to DSC on 2 hours notice - it took almost 12 hours to manage air & hotel and then get there - was hectic but totally worthwhile as I had the opportunity to meet and talk with all of you regarding the CEB bullets, Elephants and .223 caliber requirements.

I greatly appreciate the .223Rem research and will take my 1:9 Savage Precision Carbine along with my new .458B&M back to Zim in August for another Elephant and some PG. CEBs will be my bullet of choice in both rifles. Over the years I've shot all my PG with the .300WM, but with the 50gr Raptor I believe the .223Rem will do just fine for small and medium PG and I can load lighter CEBs for the .458B&M if needed for large PG.

Keep up the great work. We are witnessing and participating in the next step in ballistic development.

quote:

Keith--Big problem with the 548 Cast bullets--can't get them to chamber at nearly any seating depth in my 458 Lotts?????

Michael, they were run throu a lyman 450 sizer, with a .458 die.( I think if not .459")

Alas, I have only cast them, and sized them. Never got around the accualy loading any for my rifle.

Lyman used to show this bullet for the 460 WBY.

Keith

Keith
I don't know, suppose we are going have to start from scratch on this one and try again?



LionHunter

It was great to meet you and Carl! I regret we did not get to spend a lot more time together however! Maybe we can make a plan for next year at DSC! DSC is a rich environment full of really great folks, most of them from right here on AR! I have such an incredible good time there with all you guys!

While I don't particularly care about shooting, testing and working with hardly any small bores, the research is important to all of us, even if it is small bore. All of us have a need for the research at some point or another. With the 223 work, as you state, you use one for the small antelope, whilst Elephant hunting with the bigger bores! Many of us, like Doc and myself plan future hunts with our kids, 223 can be a large part of that! God knows, 223 is at the bottom of the terminal performance ladder, and a really good bullet, one that can and does penetrate deep, one that transmits trauma, is needed even more so than in many of our bigger bores. In light of this, one has to consider the work important! You for one want to have the best chance possible of collecting that animal and lesson the chance of loss. I for another would be greatly saddened if one of the kids lost an animal because of poor bullet performance! So the small bore work is for sure tied to our bigger bores in many ways! It will continue.

Yes, I have the same exact thoughts as you are right now. That is why I think the "Raptor" project for BIG BORES is very important! Raptors for the big PG--Zebra, wildebeast, eland, +++ is about perfect as it gets. BBW#13s NonCons and Solids for the big DG. Daryl and I were shooting my newest 19 inch 9.3 B&M Yesterday! Playing with the 210 Raptor, at 2900 fps. I had some 280 gr BBW#13 Solids and 255 NonCon loads on the bench as well! I shot 5 of the Raptors, then a few of the BBW#13s. I looked at the target at 50 yards and ALL HAD THE SAME POI????? That is just not possible? Or should not be possible? But it was so. A 210 Raptor at 2900, a 280 BBW#13 Solid at 2500, a 255 NonCon at 2600 all the same POI at 50 Yards? I really look forward to testing the BIG BORE RAPTORS!!!!! Imagine having a 300 or 350 .458 caliber Raptor shooting to the same POI at 50 yds as your BBW#13 Solids and NonCons! Imagine how much versatility this will give you in the field at any given moment! Maybe this was just a fluke in one gun and these loads--But................... Maybe not?

You are correct, these changes we do are going to change EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!!


Michael

Michael,

my first thought on your POI was 'fluke'. But on second thought, perhaps the following:

The 210 Raptor probably left at a low muzzle rise angle, but with not too much bullet drop due to excellent BC and faster fps. Then the slow 280 grain solid had some muzzle rise and would have shot high, but dropped down to the same POI due to low BC. The 255 grain is the odd-man out though. It would drop about the same as the 'solid' and would have a similar BC. So apparently the barrel harnmonics allow the 2500fps and 2600fps to leave with approximately the same amount of muzzle rise over the 2900fps.

I would keep your recipes for that particular rifle. It's what people shoot hundreds of rounds trying to achieve.

Sam and Michael,
Thanks. I will try crimping under the top band and see how they do.
Appreciate It!
Rick

Michael, well I tried making a dummy round,with the 548gr cast bullet. Seating the bullet with the top db out of the case mouth. Looks like the bolt stops about 3/8-1/2" to soon, it will not close. COAL is well under 3.6"

Keith

PS: just pull the bullets from you cases, we tried. Thanks for the effort.

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
Michael, well I tried making a dummy round,with the 548gr cast bullet. Seating the bullet with the top db out of the case mouth. Looks like the bolt stops about 3/8-1/2" to soon, it will not close. COAL is well under 3.6"

Keith

PS: just pull the bullets from you cases, we tried. Thanks for the effort.

Ahhh, same story, you can't seat them deep enough, I pushed one in the case until there was about a 1/3 of an inch of the bullet sticking out is all and it did not want to close! HEH..... But I forced it to close anyway! I took this one to the range, only had 55/IMR 4198--Should have been a very light load, and it hit 1988 fps, probably should have been down around 1600 or so. LOL...... I decided I might be playing with a bomb so I quit while I was ahead! I had one loaded with 80/RL 15, I did not shoot it! It hit the trash bin!

HEH......................

Michael

Keith and Michael,

The standard .458 WinMag throat is a wide long funnel. The .458 B&M and .458 Lott throats are tighter.
Anybody got a .458 WinMag to try them in?

CEB .375 bullets:

I got a bunch of ESP L230 Raptor .375 CAL 230 GR (with Talon Tips for all)
and a single 50-count box of
MTH L01 LD HPBT-MAX .375 CAL. 320 GR.

I am saving them for the .375/404 Jeffery Saeed, just to be different, something other than 300-grain Walterhog.

That 320-grainer out-hogs a Walterhog.
The 230-grain bird of prey might do it all too.
The Talon Tips also fit the 270-grain Brass HP NonCon from CEB.

I do have one solitary, genuine Walterhog bullet that I could loan to Dan at CEB if he ever wanted to copy the Walterhog.
One in brass would be very interesting, or made from copper lightning rod, but only after seasoned by a lightning strike.
I have pics.

Mike,
Just got back from pig hunting in Oklahoma after the DSC show. The pigs had all the luck. No chance for photos of your bullets performing their magic.
Glad you like the shot glass. Now if someone known as RIP had attended, he would have gone home with a SET of ".395/.400 NE" glasses. These were great in getting larger samples from the scotch guy and the wine ladies.

Max,
I still have the ".395 CAL./ RON" etched double-shot glass,
thank you very much.
It is the only glass fit for my Buffalo Trace bourbon from Kentucky, and that is as good as it gets, IMHO. I want not.
Cheers

RIP
Would love to see how the 375 Raptors work in your guns. 600 yard big bore pronghorn or PD bullet!

boom stick,
Hoping to report back on this soon,
I may be limitied to 300 yards at the local range, but there is 600-yard capability if local "regulators" ever allow it.
Will be trying the 230-grain ESP Raptor to see what the accuracy and BC are like at ultra velocity.

Just a refresher on the 270-grainer with tip:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OK for all you HI BC and BBW#13 fans. Remember, above I corrected the statement on the 375 HH. It was NOT 3.600 with the tip installed---3.600 before tip, with makes it long for magazine.

Now, listen very carefully!

This option for the BBW#13 NonCon is just that, an option for you to have something in your pocket for that long range 300 yd or 400 yd shot with the same BBW#13. Most ALL Of them are going to be too long for magazines in the bolt guns, as the BBW#13 NonCon is first and foremost a Dangerous Game bullet, and has already been designed to fit in the magazines WITHOUT the tip. It will be KIT form, put your own tips in a few to have in your belt, pocket or wherever for that longer range opportunity that you might run across while hunting buffalo or such! That is all it is for, nothing more.

I think if you wanted a Hi BC bullet specific for more full time use, you need to have one designed by Dan for that purpose, much like RIP and Max did for their .395s recently.

While I am glad to help out with this, and of course I will keep some tips on hand for you guys, I have little actual interest in them personally. I LOVE THE #13 NonCon just like it is! Sam and I will be working with Dan to tweak the tip, and get it right for terminals and such over the next week or so. Right now, preliminary results show that the tip does change the dynamics of terminals. So I will be looking at that first. So a little tweaking is needed, but probably not much.

As for raising the BC---No doubt it does in fact. Accurate, like always, absolutely. This is target that Dan sent to me last night shot with the 375 #13 NonCon at 600 Yards! And Dan's comments;

quote:

Trapper shot 3 three shot groups at 600 yards with the tipped .375 bullets. 7.25", 7", and 6.75". Not to shabby for a #13. BC still maintained between .500 and .530. We will confirm through the 43 but it is impressive.

Dan Smitchko
Cutting Edge Bullets

Well they say close is for horse shoes and grenades and I would add non cons and Raptors
They leave a nice area of damage.

I AM WORN OUT!!!!!!!!!!

M

What did you do?