What do you think of the rifle in bolt action form vs SXS double for packing about infested brown/ Kodiac bear areas.

Forget the shotgun, guide gun, handgun pros and cons.

If you were doing a lot of hiking in thick griz areas would you prefer two fast shots or a magazine full of one at a times with the ability to single load after that?

My initial reaction was a stainless double in 500 NE shooting solids but in such heavy cover it would be so easy to clip an alder or willow I could see running out before doing nervous system damage. It would also be heavy to carry day in and day out about in the thick stuff.

Then again would you have the time to even work the bolt once let alone twice before said nasty was in your lap. I mean they can run thru the same alders I'm woried would defelecting a bullet.

The other issue I see is weight and rifle overall length. The double would be heavier to carry as a protection piece but it would also be shorter by 3.5-4" for similar bbl length due to the lack of cartridge storage and action type.

I guess my current thinking is a bolt action rifle in stainless with a 17-18" bbl chambered in 600 Ok. With the faster powders I should still be able to get 1900 fps so no need for a brake. Add some kind of drop box mag to get 3 down plus one in the chamber. Go with a barrel sporting a .125" wall and try to keep the whole rig under 8 lbs. I also would want a solid way to mount a fairly high intensity wide beam light.

This is something that came up in conversation with a few friends last night and really got me to thinking.

I imagine that the chance of a bear incounter that goes bad is very low.

When I first came to MT everytime I went into the woods where Griz could be It was on my mind but after a number of incounters where they run off the second they see or wind you I rairly give it a thought now. The odds say the real risk is with cubs or on a kill but even then for me at least every time they've run off. Then again hte griz we have here are small by Brown / Kodiac standards.

So what do you guys think? Please try to stay away from the lever action, shotgun or big bore hand gun in this discussion.

Fritz454- You have the classic extreme close range self defense dilemma. If you only have time for one shot what is the best choice. My personal choice always is the multiple hit approach. Thus, I'd choose a 12GaFH with QUADRACONES or 25-30, .35 cal Steel ball bearings!I cant see any living thing other than an ELE survive one of those blasts! Once you've blinded the bear or blown his head to pieces, DROP the Rifle whip out your 500S&W loaded with copper solids and finish him off at your leasure. IF you have time for a well aimed shot then of course use a 1000gr Darwin. Remember, Most people cant actually work a bolt gun much faster than you could reload that Single shot thumbreak. Just think of the challenge your taxidermist will have fixing up that Trophy! -Rob

Thanks for your reply Rob. What type of velocities are you getting from the .35 cal ball bearings?

Have you given any thought to trying carbide balls in place of the steel. Only advantage would be increased mass per ball but it should be enough to aid in penetration.

John-Velocity, Who knows? My poor Chrony has been through enough already! BTW while Puny in comparison to the mighty 12GaFH, for multiple shots on target, look at a Saiga-12 Magazine fed shotgun with Slugs and OOB. You could get a hell of alot of Ball bearings or OOB down range quickly with one of those. Alternate with Sabot slugs and at close range, it makes for a very bad day for Mr. griz. Wish I could figure out how to make a Saiga12 in 12GaFH! I'd have to use a barret M82 ACTION! Again if necessary leasurely dispatch with the .500S&W or unlimber your Bolt gun.-Rob

If I have to carry a bolt -- it would be a ruger 77 in 458 shooting 500 grain bullets. If I have a choice, I'll carry my 50 alaskan lever action shooting 545 grain woodleighs at 2100fps. More lead and more forepower at a faster speed in the leveraction. I don't own a double.

in THAT situation, where it's only self defense?
i would be really hard pressed not to do a 458 socom on an AR platform ...

or, in my opinion what is the ultimate followup gun...

a 20" 10ga double .. loaded with rifle powder and BB...

jeffe

DG is DG, here or across the pond. Nothing is faster for two aimed shots than a double. If you didn't mind beating the crap out of a decent double, it would have to be the perfect close range brown bear medicine. Even in 9.3x74, it would offer enough power & lighter wt. rifle w/ ultra fast reloads after those first two shots.

I would probably satisfied with a bolt in .375 or .458 Win (or a 416) but a double would be great if weather permitted it to be properly maintained.

458Win (Phil) and NE 450 No2 (Tony) probably have some good insight. And unlike me they have actually been there.

Hello,
Lived in Alaska for several years, 70's early 80's, and general thinking was that in the event the charge from griz/brown at less than 15yds the caliber does not matter much, he is going to be in your lap. Don't know about now, but Alaska F&G discouraged people from using very high recoiling big bore rifles due to inability to get off the second shot in a timely manner. Very common round for residents hunting or living in the bush carried '06 w/ 220gr's and/or 300Win Mags. My preference was and would be today the 375HH w/ appropriate bullets for the bear. Never did see anyone w/ a double rifle of whatever caliber. Perhaps due to cost or scarcity of a 'smith to work on one if needed?? Would imagine doubles would be OK, but firearms in the bush take a beating dragging them around in and out of planes, boats, nasty weather, salt air, etc. and not sure I would want to beat up a nice costly double.

martin

I would worry about a double in AK, the salt air is hard on steel parts, and the internal lockwork of a double can be intricate at best. I would look for a 458 win/lott in a teflon coated bolt gun (stainless can become brittle at sub zero temps). Second choice would be one of the 416s. I would keep the bbl between 20" and 22", rifle weight would be about 9/5 lbs with ammo and scope. The bolt can be easily field stripped and cleaned, and should be done every morning before heading out to make sure there is nothing that will impede the striker (ie ice). Speaking of ice, don't use a muzzle break and keep the muzzle covered (condoms work) otherwise you will be appropriately seasoned by the time the bear arrives. The larger calibers work pretty well, but will slow done your follow up shots and add-in the trouble of a brake.

As for solids, I don't think they are legal for hunting in Ak, you would be ahead to use a tough expander anyways. I would rate barnes TSX, Woodleigh, A-FRAME, Partition.

Again, my recommendation presupposes a self defense stopping shot (less than 25 yds) on a brown bear.

As for the light, check with the AK DFG, in CA, OR, SD, and WA, that would be a good way to get stopped and ticketed for Jacklighting. In TX, they give you a high 5. If it is legal, a streamlight mounted off of the scope will be the easiest to control, except in a bear charge, you won't have much time to turn the light on.

Last word of free advice, shooting a bear in AK is serious business, you will be having to fill out paperwork and interviewed until you retire. Make sure of your shot, and make sure you take appropriate scare measures (assuming you have time) before dropping a bear. If you can't smell his breath, he's too far away for a self defense shot.

John

400-450 with cup points ,maybe a 9.3x74 if on a budget. Either one should be more than enough, and felt recoil to me is more pleasent than a 338 win mag and 200 gr bullet pushed to the max.

A double rifle should be no harder to keep working tha a box lot double barrel shot gun.
Rifle prep with any of them is very important. Well sealed stocks,and grease that won't freeze.

JD

On my first hunt in Alaska I carried my 450/400 double rifle and shot 2 caribou.

In my second trip I helped buddies hunt caribou for 15 days, carrying my 450/400 all the time. Then I hunted brown bear for the next 15 days.

I carried a 300 Win Mag Blaser some of that time as we saw a wolverine and a wolf, both of which I had tags for.

I really like a double rifle, and I would prefer it with a close encounter with a bear.

However, for day in day out carry for a guide or resident for a protection gun, a bolt might be a better choice.

First, doubles are very expensive. They will take a real beating from the weather.

If I was hunting bear I would carry a double, but for daily protection I think a powerful lever or bolt rifle would be my choice.

It is a lot easier to "baby" a hunting gun vs a work gun.

I've spent time in AK, but never hunted just fished. The weather there is something I wouldn't want my doubles in. I have never shot a griz but have had close encounters with blacks. In both encounters I used a shotgun, mostly because that is what I had. One with slugs and one with buckshot. Both died quickly, thank you, Lord. If I was hunting my choice would be lever action in .450 Marlin or .45-70, stage 2, handloads with Hornady levolution(sp?) bullets. It's short, light and quick.

Ask SAFARIKID... seems to like his custom wheelguns and he did kill some griz with a short barreled 500 Jeffery

.375 or .416 bolt rifle would be my choice.

I will also add that I carried a 4" S&W 44 Mag every second I was in AK.

If a bear does knock you down your rifle will be worthless.

Can't rember which book, but there was a story
of a fellow hitting his brownie, with a 378, emptied it, then had to resort to his 454 Cass.
What I gathered is, $h!! happens fast with grizz. The fellow was lucky to have an impressive sidearm.
Were it me, I'd be asking the "sourdoughs", what they're packing.



One very, departed, meandering side note, of miniscule importance to the discussion.


Harold J. created the 50 Alaskan and used the back half of surplus 50 cal FMJ BTs. (inadvertantly creating solids similar to Macifejs)
He reported to have never recovered a single one, no matter which animal or angle
the animal was shot at.

There was a black bear hunter mauled by a griz recently in Idaho. She came from so close and so fast that he had no time to use his rifle. A back up handgun would have kept his ijuries to a minimum. There are recommended for lion and leopard hunting snd are equally important for big bears.

465H&H

I wasn't very clear here. I meant the handgun as a backup to your primary defense weapon. If the bear gets you down it is much better protection than a knife or your fist. For me it would be a light, short barreled, weather proof 458 Win. with a good 500 grain soft, it would be all that you need and can be handled quickly and efficiently.

465H&H

How about a Rem7600 cut to 18" and chambered in 35Whelen?
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by .366torque:
Can't rember which book, but there was a story
of a fellow hitting his brownie, with a 378, emptied it, then had to resort to his 454 Cass.
What I gathered is, $h!! happens fast with grizz. The fellow was lucky to have an impressive sidearm.
Were it me, I'd be asking the "sourdoughs", what they're packing.



One very, departed, meandering side note, of miniscule importance to the discussion.


Harold J. created the 50 Alaskan and used the back half of surplus 50 cal FMJ BTs. (inadvertantly creating solids similar to Macifejs)
He reported to have never recovered a single one, no matter which animal or angle
the animal was shot at.

I am all for having a sidearm in addition to a rifle, hence why I have so many cross draw holsters. But, I doubt that any handgun caliber will out perform a well placed 378 wby round. Handguns big enough for Griz will require a lot of practice to shoot well on a calm moment. With a 1/2 ton of fur, claws, and teeth bearing down on you, you feel like a teenager in his girlfriends bed when dad opens the door. For those that enjoy shooting the hand cannons, this isn't much of a problem. For the fisherman who practices once or twice a year, you might as well have a tack hammer.

On a side note I had a college professor who had been chewed on by mama griz when he unknowingly got to close to a cub while hiking glacier nat'l forrest. His weapon of choice, an ice axe, which he smacked the nose of the bear with his right hand while it chewed on his left. Men were built tough in those days.

John

My thanks for all the replys. Rob I do like your idea of a face full of ball bearings. I have 500 cases of 600 Ok-3 sitting here adn got to thinking thatI could turn out a MRC PH in 600 ok-3. Load the first shot or two with .35 cal carbide balls and back it up with the regular old load of a turned solid at 900-1200 gr then get it going to 1900 fps to finish it off. Hell I could even turn some cases from stainless at say 3.85 long to increase shot volume. It wouldn't have the number of the 12 ga fh but should still do a lot of damage.

This whole conversations started off because a friends son may be going up into the thick stuff for a logging comany to survey for harvesting timber. Its a position he has only applied for but that was the start of this "which is better" debate.

I told him if his kid gets the job I'd gladly loan him any rifle I have along with one of my FA 454 cassuls with a 4 5/8" bbl.

Yea its a good friend and I've known his son since he was shortly out of diappers. He also is one of the most responsible young people I know.

He seems to have his eye on my 9 lb 500 A2 with 1.75-6X but would remove the scope. Its stainless with a dull finish and in a McMillan stock. A good choice except its got a 26" tube but he's fired it before and it fits him well.

Again, thanks for all the ideas. It's been a fun "what if" discussion.

John

Seems the discussion already came to a conclusion, but I hafta ask:

quote:

My initial reaction was a stainless double in 500 NE shooting solids but in such heavy cover it would be so easy to clip an alder or willow I could see running out before doing nervous system damage.

Where were you planning to get your paws on one of these?

- Lars

I was just checkin to see if any Alaskans or Northern BC Canadians were going to chime in here ...
.
.
. Ya , a Kreigoff double in 500 /416 Would be pretty great , but I would want it regulated for 350 gr mono,s @ 2500 fps . A 500 N.E. regulated for Gerard's 450 gr H V @ 2400 fps would trump about Anything ... I,m not too crazy about most double rifle safeties ... Remember you pack it all the time , like my 375 Ruger , and today I found out that the pretty white bead front sight ,is no match for a trucks reciever hitch .. Baer season is open year round here and I,ve been looking , but also working .... ....
.
. If a rifle isn,t as tough as a Stihl or Husky Chain saw , or a Skill Worm drive framing saw Or a polaris 4 wheeler , It really isn,t a tool I want to trust my life with ... I,ve got WAY TOO MUCH TO DO TO BABY A RIFLE So far my stainless rifles have worked ok down to 50 below .. Most bears are snoring @ that temp .... I,ve actually been a slothful P.O.C. because I havn,t built a front sight hood for my Ruger Alaskan ... A pretty great double for Alaska was when Butch Searcy was building o/u doubles on the Ruger Red Lable , I examined one in Great Northern Guns in the mid 80,s in 470 that was great ........ Alot of coastal brown bear don,t flee for their lives .. They look at you and think about what they want to do with or because of you ... I myself havn,t discovered the difference in the killing abilities between the 416,s and the 458 ..... There are situations where ,,If a big old mean brn bear bore wants you , and hunts you , if you are in thick brush ,almost regardless of the rifle you are carrying , you stand a good chance of becoming bear poop ................. And by thick brush , I don,t mean alders , you can almost always see 30-or more feet in all the alders I,ve been in .. , No , thick brush ,is Coniferous , Sitka spruce and Western Hemlock . juvenile Alaska Cedar and Red Cedar ... And it is also Blue berry/ Huckle berry brush , sometimes 6 ft tall ...... On the criks the Salmon berry ,fukle berry mix with LOTS AND LOTS of Devils Club , LOTS and LOTS of Devils Club You have to walk the bear trails , 1 because they are the easiest walking , and 2 because it is the only way to get thru the brush ... ... Boyyyy I,de like to walk some of you guys thru some brush !!!!!!!!1 I can walk you on a bear trail in the Neka Bay area that has 20 or more bear on it every day in the summer ,, a lot of places you can,t see 12 feet. . . Sometimes you can hear them coming along their trail , They are thinkin about a fish lunch ,or something , Then sometimes you can hear them stop.... They might be 15 or 20 feet away , can,t see them , but you can hear them breathing ,and ya know their stickin out their bottom lip . Sometimes they roar , I,ve had this happen in the mid to late summer but mostly in the fall .... . sometimes they make a sound like a cat sneezing ..some times they pop their jaws together .. .. Obviously you need to have your rifle ready to go at this point . I took a lesson from Jeff Cooper and press my trigger finger very hard against the front right side of the trigger guard , It helps keep brush out of the trigger guard and gives me a point of focus .. I ALWAYS HAVE THE STRAP IN MY LEFT HAND AS I GRASP THE FOREND .. Bad time for it to get hung up ..!!!.. What gets real scary now is 1 to hear another bear coming along the trail from the way you just came , walking in your tracks , It knows you are there and it doesn,t give a shit ... And 2 , To know the bear you were getting ready to deal with is right there in front of you , but then you hear a piece of brush crack 60 feet off to one side of you or on one of your quarters .. You know how thick the brush is , you could hear the bear breathing ,but you didn,t hear it move off the trail and only 20 seconds have elapsed , . It went so silent that your dog couldn,t even hear it ............................. Pretty much all the 300 crowd has already s--t their pants at this point most of the time a 375 will knock a bear down , but a muzzle broke 416 or 458 is best when this happens , 2 reasons 1 in this type of brush your ears are going to get clapped from the 1st shot from any rifle big enough to do the job , then you won,t be able to hear the bear ,regardless if it,s got a brake or not and 2 the less recoil , the faster the 2nd and 3rd shots ....
.. Thats why I,m gumboot 4 5 8 ... I have trusted my life and my wifes life on a stainless Ruger I had built in 458 Win mag in 1994 .. I,ve / weve hid behind it at least 50 times possibly as much as 75 times ..... It has NEVER let me down ...

Jeffe, In many ways you may have a perfect solution. I've never liked the looks of the rim on that case and would worry about a twig getting into the action after the first shot. Although that's true of any action. Guess I always thought of my black rifles more along the vain of zombie killers

Schauckis, I assume you mean a Stainless SXS. For enough $$$ one can be built but if this situation came to be more than hypothetical I would build one myself. I know my way around a mill and a lathe. Hell, a few yeas back I solid modeled an SXS action and even bought some 4140 but never got to it. Maybe one of these days I'll see it thru. Making one out of a stainless grade would be easy especially after the programs were proofed.

Gumboot458, Thanks for the first hand info. For my taste any rifle for this application starts at 458 cal as a minimum and in a bolt action I would start at a 470 M'Bogo and feel fine about it's ability to take care of any bear. I started shooting big bores many years ago and like to think my form is good enough to allow me to get off rapid aimed second shots where most would struggle. Of course, I could be fooling myself.

This discussion was not because I'm headed for AK anytime soon but because a buddys son may have a job up there and his dad and I got to talking. I wonder what the actual stats are on bear both griz and black attacks. Deaths vs injurys and a break down of serious vs superficial injurys. Also knowing the area of attacks. I'll have a look on hte web there must be some info there.

First I am not a double sort of guy. So that leaves me with first choice a bolt gun, second choice lever gun.

Has to be short. Has to be light. Has to be fast. Stainless and synthetic to endure the rigors of Alaskan weather. Minimum 416 caliber, preferable 458 + caliber. Has to be powerful enough to accomplish mission. Choice of bullet is just as important as any other factor.

For me I already have this sitting in my racks, several of them in fact. Perfect for me in this situation. 458 Caliber, bolt, stainless/synthetic, 6.5 lbs, (Carry a lot-shoot a little for most) 38 inches overall, 18 inch barrel, 500 gr Woodleighs at 2100 fps, 450 Swifts at 2200 fps, 400 Swifts at 2350 fps. If a larger caliber is desired, .500 caliber, same size and configuration rifle, 500s at 2100 fps--470 HP at 2200 fps, 426 HP at 2300 fps.

For a lever gun a good 18 inch stainless marlin in .500 caliber shooting a 500 gr Hornady at 2000 fps.

All backed up with handgun of choice, my preference a good 45 Colt 2-4 inch barrel, light, and stainless or there abouts.

Michael

Armed with a 500 double you are in a position to put the frighteners on any creature on earth.
I have used my 500 on three elephant and you have to see its effect to believe it.
Use 570gn softs for your work at hand and no bear that ever lived will know what hit it.
A double needs attention on a regular basis from a 'smith who knows his trade for cleaning.If this is not readily available the very much secondary option of a bolt might be best.

Hi Buck....

quote:

If I have to carry a bolt -- it would be a ruger 77 in 458 shooting 500 grain bullets. If I have a choice, I'll carry my 50 alaskan lever action shooting 545 grain woodleighs at 2100fps.

Just a couple of comments. I like 450 Swift A-frames better in my 458 Ruger (and old push-feed purchased long before I think I had ever read about CRF versus pushfeeds) and secondly, in regards to the ballistics of your 50 Alaskan, WOW, that is impressive. I have an old 348 Winchester Model 71 and am considering having it rechambered to a 50 Alaskan. I had considered a 450 grain at about 2,050 fps to be pretty good. It that think kicks.....

Thanks

I'm a double man but for AK evironment the bolt is the best choice day in and day out. I have a rifle set up for exactly what you are asking for, it's a Ruger M77 standard action, Danny Pederson barrel 22 inches long, #5 contour NP3 coated protection with McMillian stock weighing 8.75 lbs shooting 450 grain Swift a-frames this setup would be IMO the best self-defense medicine on big brownies. If it was not for the extremely wet conditions of AK the double is the ultimate medical-life insurance policy you can get with a 450-400 Jeffery being the perfect caliber IMO. Even the late Elmer Keith said he'd rather carry his WR DR in 450-400 through the alder bush of AK after bear than any other set-up.

Not to start a flame war or completely steal this thread, but I have always wondered about a "perfect" stopper for brown bear and have thought that a Browning BAR in 416 Taylor would be a pretty good combination.

I'm going to differ with most here and go with a lever, followed by a bolt, then a double. And I currently own 2 levers, 3 bolts, and 5 doubles, so for HUNTING, I'd reverse that order, but the question here is for packing and living with day to day. That usually means doing something else with you hands while having the rifle accessable, getting in and out of boats, planes, crossing rivers, crawling through brush, climbing with both hands, building camp, in this case logging, and just plain working. There is no way you can baby a gun in these situations.

My biggest reason though, is safety. There are lots of times (see above) when I want a gun instantly accessable, but DON'T want a round chambered. A double is the fastest hunting tool for two shots, but a lever is the fastest when the chambers start empty.

If I'm fumbling in the dark, or I've set the gun down and someone else is closer when the bear (at the worst possible time) appears, a lever is more intutitive for an unfamilair person to put into action (no hammer block safeties on mine, bolt action safeties can vary a lot). You don't want to be fumbling when stressed and time counts.

Also, as many folks have pointed out, a 500A2 or 600OK isn't needed. Bears aren't armor plated, and only a CNS hit is going to give an instant spitting distance kill anyway. I think even a 45-70 or 444 with nonexpanding bullets is plenty.

My camp/cabin gun for this application is a 16.5" unported stainless 50AK. It weights 6.6lb, and is usually leaning against a tree or in the corner with chamber empty and magazine full. Buffalo bore 525s do a little over 1800fps and are brutal, but I load it down to a reasonable level. I also have a 44 on my body or in arms reach almost all of the time.

Not exactly Phil's 416 Rigby in the outhouse, but I also keep a loaded 357 w/180gn solids and a can of bear spray just inside my front door at home. The good news is the black bear that hung out in the yard the last two summers hasn't been around the last few weeks. The bad news is that my wife chased a off a 7-800lb sow w/2yr old brown bear cub from the driveway last Friday! The cub went so far as to stick his head in a car window for sniff.

Bob

Sorry I'm late,but I'm here now.Looks lile ALL Great answers to the age old question,double or bolt..Here my 2 bits...Simple for me,first,the Bigger the hole,the better for Up Close and Personal!Next,I love Big Doubles,bt for me,that is a AFRICAN DG proposition only.I cant really imagine lugging a really nice double up and down the AK mnts and swamps,with snow,rain and slush everywhere!They are Heavy and just to nice.For me,its a "Specialty Bolt",458 and up for what you asked for..Big Bear up close in the Alders..2nd shot is available rather fast IF you need it.You can build it short and light and WeatherPROOF!I took my last Brownie with a Win 70 Custom in 500 Jeffery,all SS and Laminated and Light for Caliber (6 1/2pds scoped) with a 16" barrel with sights and a Low Powered Scope in QD mounts,and all was Duracoated for even more rustproofing...I was in the Best Bear Camp in Alaska with maybe 10 Seasoned Bear Guides.(some had over 80 bears taken!)They all loved my lil cannon and its features!Sure,I am a extremist,but it really wass perfect for that trip,bad weather,lots of walking and streams,alders,snow,etc!Plus,it looks so mean and kewl!....I also did a synthetic 458 Lott with 18" SS Lw that I love(6pds scoped) ...Also did a 600OK the same in laminated,etc...So,go with a bolt,wont be to heavy,will carry at least 3 rounds and wont break your wallet like a double! Last,it's a personal thing,all good replys above me,I just like to go the extra mile and be unique..Good Luck! (I miss Alaska!)

GB458 & OB, make the best reasoning.



I've managed to avoid an embrace by Devils Club,
but a buddy of mine, didn't feel like
changing his "corks" until later.
The first log he encountered, he slipped off into Devils Club,
if it wasn't for his heavy wool pants, he'd a been in a LOT of "discomfort".

quote:

Originally posted by fritz454:
What do you think of the rifle in bolt action form vs SXS double for packing about infested brown/ Kodiac bear areas.

Forget the shotgun, guide gun, handgun pros and cons. ---------

If you were doing a lot of hiking in thick griz areas would you prefer two fast shots or a magazine full of one at a times with the ability to single load after that?---------

So what do you guys think? Please try to stay away from the lever action, shotgun or big bore hand gun in this discussion.

By your parameters Double Rifle over bolt anytime.


My personal opinion/experience goes against you parameters--

Always carry a heavy handgun on you--mine used to be a .44 -4'',now a .500- snubby,in a center chest carry rig.

You lay rifles/shotguns down,to fish, climb, eat, make camp, cut wood,use a camera or optics,to relieve your self etc.,etc., etc.

One or two bad encounters separated from your rifle or shotgun will get you thinking about an omnipresent weapon.

Yes ,pistols are inferior to rifles, but if you wear it as part of you its always there.

My Alaska rifle is a lever.

Don,
my 50 ak is a 26 inch barrel and weighs 12.5 pounds. I always go with a heavier gun as I don't mind the extra weight (competitive weightlifter for 12 years) and it tames recoil. So the longer barrel gives better velocity and it hold 9 rounds fully loaded. I've never had an issue with getting room to use it and I usually hunt the messiest brush I can find.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fritz454:
Jeffe, I

Gumboot458, Thanks for the first hand info. For my taste any rifle for this application starts at 458 cal as a minimum and in a bolt action I would start at a 470 M'Bogo and feel fine about it's ability to take care of any bear. I started shooting big bores many years ago and like to think my form is good enough to allow me to get off rapid aimed second shots where most would struggle. Of course, I could be fooling myself...... ..................................,,,,,-------My 500 A-Sq had a 21 " barrel and it was fine .. If he is cruising timber in S.E. or South Central , the 454 with a GOOD, FLAP holster and Cor Bon 320 gr Belt Mt. Penatrators . Is pretty much a must .... Kindo a great minimum .... A rifle in the pick up or where the helicopter drops you off is useless . If it was left there because it was too long and heavier than it could have been ..... Waterrat uses a 425 Express . Phil uses a 458 Obviously , Anukpuk uses a 416 Rem . I,ve used the 500 A2 the Lott , Win Mag . 416 Rem and Taylor ... I,ve packed the 375s and 338 s and like them but mostly relagate them for deer hunting ect , with enough power to keep me from getting chewed hopefully But primarily use the 458 Win Mag with 300-400 gr bullets ........... An 8 lb 470 Mbogo would be fine but it would need a pretty good brake on it .. The BM 416 and the 458 and 470 AR , in nice light rifles are great .... . .. Remember , BROWN BEAR ARN,T ELEPHANTS .......... Safari Kid's 500 Jeffry would be awesome with 450 gr GS HVs @ 2400 or so .

.

. The 416 Ruger Alaskan is a rifle designed for me .. It is perfect Just NEEDS a fore sight hood . and a standard Ruger synthetic stock .....
.
. You guys that can . Design and and build a 16 1/2" barrel Ruger Stainless ,over 40 caliber that even @ 30 below will push a min 350 gr Mono metal bullet @ 2500 fps or faster ..and weigh less than 7 1/2 lbs.. ..
. My rule has always been that those with me MUST BE ABLE TO OPERATE THE DEFENSIVE FIREARM .. So tho For me a 500 or something with lots of bells and whistles and lots of recoil is fine , my wife isn,t too keen on it and can,t use those !!!!!!!!!!. Hence a 458 Win mag , muzzle broke w/300 gr Xs @ 2500 fps -2700 fps .....................................................................................................I,ve killed bears with that load and you can slide a baseball bat thru the bear ................. By the way the brush in the pic is wonderfully open ,scenic brush , Interior Alaska

I'm a double rifle guy, but would opt for a good weatherized bolt rifle in something from 375 to 458, preferably 458wm, I think.

A Chapuis in 9.3x74r is a light (under 8lbs) and relatively inexpensive (under $5k, iirc) double rifle that might be a good option. I has ejectors so a motivated shooter can reload pretty quicly if required. 286gr Noslers or Woodleighs...

JPK

quote:

my 50 ak is a 26 inch barrel and weighs 12.5 pounds. I always go with a heavier gun as I don't mind the extra weight (competitive weightlifter for 12 years) and it tames recoil. So the longer barrel gives better velocity and it hold 9 rounds fully loaded. I've never had an issue with getting room to use it and I usually hunt the messiest brush I can find.

That explains a lot. The longer barrel obviously makes a lot of difference. Thanks. Is it a Marlin or a Winchester?

Fritz,

Your thread answered a question for me:

What to build on my MRC SS action once I get it.

The answer - also the answer to your question.

16 1/2" stainless steel barreled, laminate stocked 600 Overkill. Build it to take 3 down and one in the spout.

Could anything be better than that for your friend?

I have lived and hunted in Alaska for over 30 years and hunted Kodiak about 10 times. Kodiak is harsh on rifles. If they are not wiped down every evening rust or pitting should be expected in short order.
Currently own a double as well as a stainless 458 Lott (MRC sitting in a McMillan). To answer your original question I would choose the Lott built on either the MRC or stainless W70 action and have the barrel cut to 18 inches and the stock shortened about 1/2 less than my normal LOP so the rifle could be brought up quickly. Fixed iron sights of your choice would finish the package. These bears move so fast I see little reason for the rifle to hold more than three down as I doubt you have a chance to shoot a charging browning more than four times.
However, if anyone would build a totally stainless double with a laminate or syn stock I would choose it over the bolt in a heartbeat (if I could afford it, lol).

Waffen Fuchs in Innsbruck builds an all stainless double rifle.

I just thought I'd share that since it's been mentiond here a couple of times.