Here are several "LIL BIG GUNS"(isnt that a Oxymoron ...all are Short,Weatherproof and Powerful! 458 Lott Synthetic 18"/6pds scoped,500 Jeff 18"/8pds and 600 Overkill 16"/8pds/peep sight in Brown Synthetic and another 500Jeff 16"/6 1/2pds in the Gray Stock!Light and Handy

Want to add that,as stated by others,Brownies arnt Elephant,so a Lightweight Handy 375-458 will kill them DEAD with good shot and right bullets!Also,A good lil 500 Smith can come in handy "Just in Case"(I luv my Snubbie)!....Last,I have had many levers in 50 Alaskan and 50/110...These things weatherproofed will also put Smokey the Bear fast Asleep!....Heck,you want a quick 2nd shot,levers will do that-Ask John Wayne!

I have only been on 3 BB hunts but with that minimal experience I believe I would build a 458 Lott with a stainless 22" barrel on a good synthetic stock.

I wouldnt think a shotgun would allow you good follow up shots on wounded bear running away.

Although I have and use double rifles in Africa I cant see them on a hunt in Alaska weather except for a limited time. The scenerio you describe sounds like your friends son will be out there quite a while.

Hi Tom
Who built those rifles?

I'm no bear expert, but, I've got to see and shoot a few fun bear guns.

I'll agree with JPK that the 9.3 X 74R in a Chapuis or a beautiful little Merkel will take anything on earth. Something about 286 grains at 2400 fps twice that works on everything. Only weighs about 6-7 pounds, feels like a 22 LR, and is easy to carry.




I'd be bringing the .500 Max on the bench as well, with 525's at 1350 fps, or faster.

Jack Huntington did a Ruger #1 in stainless, with an 18" barrel, and in .510 Wells/.500 A2. Weighed 6 pounds. 570 grains at 2200-2400 fps would do the job, but you better hit your target. 150 ft-lbs of recoil.

Here's a converted Pedroseli 45-70, to .450 Nitro Express. Jack put a stalker safety on it. Watching a really good shooter with a .450 Nitro Express, 480's at 2150 fps makes one wonder if you really need more. Gun recoils, but not bad, and, Jack can hit two targets, in under a second with that rifle.



This is another double shotgun converted to .450 Nitro Express. I'm trying to post low cost alternatives to a very expensive double.


Finally, I like both of these rifles. Top is a 458 Lott. I'd pull the scope and shorten the barrel. Bottom is a .510 Van Horn. 600 grains at 2150 fps, with a Barnes solid.


Finally, it is possible to have a slightly beat on .500 Nitro Express. It's a little heavy, a little long, but, 570 grain soft points at 2100 fps would certainly work, and, you get two of them. At it's current weight, it works just fine.


Lot of answers to one problem...or two or three...

quote:

Always carry a heavy handgun on you--mine used to be a .44 -4'',now a .500- snubby,in a center chest carry rig.

Good advice!

To hijack, one time while goat hunting on the gulf coast of AK I hiked down to my camp at saltwater for more food. My camp was between two streams choked with pinks. I'd been out several days in hot weather and smelled worse than the dead fish, so I built a fire on the beach and grabbed a bar of soap. When I went to the water's edge the tide was going out and there were bear tracks in the wet sand! I did a quick look around, sat my rifle on the sand, and went for a freezing swim. Almost immediately there was a hell of a lot of splashing and comotion from near a big rock outcropping on the beach. I immediately "knew" it was a bear, got to shore, grabbed my rifle, and wondered, now what?, as I stood there au natural. The noise continued, so I slowly crept up the rocks barefooted, until I could see the other side....

...where a tide pool had trapped a ton of salmon that were splashing about attempting to escape, and no bears were to be found.

Thank God I was alone or I'd still be living that one down!

These are my solutions to the issue at hand.
Along with a suitable sidearm of choice.

Another solution would be my 50 B&M Alaskan
500 Hornady at 2000 fps.

Man,all this Bear Rifle talk and Im a ready for a Bear Hunt!!

For my part I NEVER go into the woods without a Freedom Arms 454 Cassul at my side. Usually one with fixed open sights set at 30 yds and a 4-5/8" bbl. Loads are hard cast 320 grs over a max load of 296. My field grade is banged up from being bumped about as I carry it with me doing whatever has me out and about. It sits in a side holster with a thumb snap and is fast and easy to get to. I've never used a timer but I bet I can get off all 5 shots into a 8" paper plate @ 50 yds in under 2 seconds but I've never tested that so say 3 seconds to be safe.

As for a rifle anyone on this board that knows me knows I like large holes and high velocity cases. In this case I think I would sacrifice some velocity to keep the barrel shorter. Of the guns in my safe now I would pick either a 470 M'Bogo, 500 A2 or 550 mag but would shorten the barrel to 20".

If I was building for this purpose I would wait to get a MRC PH. Chamber it in 600 OK-3. Put a 16.5" bbl with no brake and a light contour barrel. Add a peep sight and one of those fibre front sights. Send it off to McMillan to stock. I'd keep the LOP a bit shorter for eaiser mouting. Then I'd turn some stainless cases that were a full 3.85" long and make a bunch of brass wads to hold carbide ball bearings to protect the rifling. Build it so I can get 2 solids down one "shotgun shell" case on top and then close the bolt with another "shotgun shell" in the chamber for a total of four. I'd look to get the solids to weigh in at 1000-1200 gr and get em moving at 1800-1900 fps.

Recoil will be stout but manageable and it would be short and handy and weight should be under 7.5 lbs ready to go. With practice and by keeping the loads to lower velocities muzzle rise should be manageable. I can always add some weight to the forearm but that would defeat some of the reasons for building it as stated.

I believe I was the second one to have a 600 OK. Rob being the first, of course. I receintly sold off that one but still have the one I built on a GMA action. So I'm no strainger to the recoil produced by full power loads but if velocity is kept under 2100 fps the 600 OK is very shootable and if you stay at NE velocities its tame. At least to me.

I have been planning to build another when the PH actions arrive (already have the 3 groove barrel from Pac-Nor) and am now thinking of building it as above. It would be one kick ass 600 OK, that and I have 500 600 OK -3 cases I've been dreading trimming.

I'll have to think about this. I'm already comited to doing a 700 DA with one of the PH actions.

I hope my daughter marries a good fella who likes to hunt and and fish and is addicted to big bores so I have someone to leave these to. John

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:
Man,all this Bear Rifle talk and Im a ready for a Bear Hunt!!

Safarikid

Me too Kid! Only problem is the bears all live in Alaska where it starts raining the minute I get off the plane, and the temp drops to 36 degrees, and it rains the entire time I am on the ground! And don't forget the snow, ice, wind, and sand storms. If it was not for that I would love to be bear hunting!

Michael

You all aught to do the TIMED BIG BORE shooting test. How many of us with our BIG BORES can fire a SINGLE round from a slinged rifle position into a paper plate at 15yrds in 1.5 seconds? I just tried it and I cant do it! A human or a bear will be in your lap in 1.5 seconds from 15 yrds BTW. Even from a port arms position its tough with a Big bore and the bigger the gun the longer it takes. Getting my teeth knocked out with a bad cheek weld just isnt in the cards although if II were about to be chewed on I suppose I'd alter my thinking. I could draw from a holster and shoot my .500 S&W 4" twice in 1.5 second though and hit the target once. From Port arms with a saiga-12 I could get alot of lead on paper easily by hip shooting. Missed every time with the rifle.-Rob

Rob

We do some of that here, and it is very difficult. Our criteria is a bit tighter, but also a little closer at 10 yds. I have some targets that have a 5" diamond-the shot has to be inside that to count from 10 yds and Port Arms. Experienced shooters end up being about 1.5 seconds depending on the sight system, we have done red dots, iron sights and scoped. Those with less experience go to around 2 seconds at best into 2.5, some with several misses. I suppose with a bigger paper plate at 15 yds, times should be close to what we got.

This is a good test for this sort of thing and would encourage it as good practice too. It also tests your sight systems, rifle function, in addition to your gun handling. Not to mention a lot of fun.

Michael

Michael-In general I've found Eotech holosights to be extremely good for fast work particularily on moving targets. They survive big bore recoil well and are a huge advantage in dim light. Getting a slinged rifle into action fast is an art and even from port arms with a timer its tough getting a good cheek weld even with a rifle that fits perfectly. I think this type of practice separates the men from the boys quickly. Yes you get way better with practice. I think you have a chance IF you know or sense the bear is getting ready to have a go. I dont think anyone has much of a chance if they are caught unawares except to stick that 500S$W in its ear or eye and start pulling the trigger ar press contact range.-Rob

When you put it that way, that little double Merkel starts looking like the best deal, or, that Ruger #1 in .510 Wells/Ackley.

The Merkel is light, and so small it swings easily on target. Doesn't kick enough that you'd even feel it in a bear charge...

Rob

I am in agreement with you concerning the red dots being fast and easy for this work. For less experienced shooters they always had the best times and accuracy combined with the Aimpoints over irons or scopes. I have an Eotech I tried and liked it a lot, my son liked it better and has it on an AR. But I have tried several different red dots and they work for close and fast jobs perfectly!

If you are in condition "orange" you stand a chance--if you are walking around in "White", well same as being in the streets!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
You all aught to do the TIMED BIG BORE shooting test. How many of us with our BIG BORES can fire a SINGLE round from a slinged rifle position into a paper plate at 15yrds in 1.5 seconds? I just tried it and I cant do it! A human or a bear will be in your lap in 1.5 seconds from 15 yrds BTW. Even from a port arms position its tough with a Big bore and the bigger the gun the longer it takes. Getting my teeth knocked out with a bad cheek weld just isnt in the cards although if II were about to be chewed on I suppose I'd alter my thinking. I could draw from a holster and shoot my .500 S&W 4" twice in 1.5 second though and hit the target once. From Port arms with a saiga-12 I could get alot of lead on paper easily by hip shooting. Missed every time with the rifle.-Rob

If you are drawing from a holster and dropping two shots off on a big bore handgun, you are doing better than most IPSC competitors. From a competition holster I was .86 sec between buzzer and first shot. From a concealment rig, 1.5 sec between buzzer and first shot.

But your point on a rifle in a slung position is not lost. Add to that the lack of awareness it wouldn't be uncommon for someone to hut the mark between 3-3.5 seconds. Out in the open, you might have enough time, if your in the scrub, plan on getting hurt. And you are right, a championship sprinter can run 100m in 10 seconds or so, and they're not as fast as a grizzly.

Always a good idea to have a sidearm, but wherever possible, I prefer the rifle. But either way, the lack of practice will render either tool as a fashion accessory rather than an autopsy prevention device.

John

No one wants to hear this, as I've posted in other chats, but a big can of OC that produces a 10' cloud is gunna be a lot more easier to hit with. Most companies claim a greater than 90% effectiveness....

My vote would be for a M1A SOCCOM if your intent on using a rifle. 20 rounds of 308 will cure any 2/4 legged (or wheeled) problem.

I've spent a lot of time in NW Montana in the Yaak, which has the highest concentration of Griz in the lower 48. The thick brush there usually means your gunna hear em long before you see em. When you see em your gunna have maybe a second or two before your in the ring together, and wrestling around.

PREVENTION IS 99% OF THE CURE

I've heard of 3 incidents in the last 10 years of Griz altercations, where the bear/s were shot & killed. The MT Fish, Wildlife, and Parks takes these incidents extremely serious, and are fully investigated as a crime scene by one of the three lettered federal agencies.

Due to this, many of the locals have adopted the three S's of Griz encounters:
- SHOOT
- SHOVEL
- SHUT UP

You may want to also factor in Moose. I have had many more bad encounters with Moose than I've ever had with the Griz.

Maybe I should get a timmer and actually see what I can do with a side arm. It sounds like I'm thinking i'm a whole lot faster than is posible.

How the rifle is carried should depend n the enviroment. Going down a trail thru the alders you need to be at port arms and in RED mode. Walking along a open straight beach with a bit of room to the tree line you can relax a bit and maybe even sling your gun....Maybe.

A handgun is a last resort weapon IMO. I want to have a rifle with a big bullet for my primary defensive weapon. I think practicing to the point that I can instinctively shoot from the hip or pointed off the port arms carry and hit a 8" circle at 15 feet is a must and another reason I am begining to really like Rob's 12ga ball bearing idea. Although I really like my 600 OK-3 solution. I do need to find out how many .3-.35" dia balls I can get in the case I described. I'll have to make a brass case and see how many I can stuff in there. Hell I bet I can even fill some of the voids with # 6 or 7 shot and have no effect on the count of the larger bearings. It would up the odds of blinding the bear as well.

Rob, how many of those .35" dia balls do you get in the 12 ga FH case and is it the full length 50 bmg case or a 3.5" shotgun case?

Kind of odd, but, maybe an AK 47 or Mac 10 would be more portable, and yet able to put a lot of penetrating lead on target?

African poachers seem to do reasonably well with the AK's, and, 7000 grains(32 rounds, 230 grain ball, in under 2 seconds, Mac 10) to be a bit slower, but near what you'd be getting out of one shot of 600 OK, using .35" balls. What velocity would you get with such a load?

GS, Since I don't know the total weight I can only guess but 1900-2000 fps seems realistic. John

Well- Since I practice 5 days a week with my concelament holster which is usually a SOB, I can draw and fire two shots in 1.5 seconds off a timer. In the real world, caught napping, who knows and thats with a Glock or revolver with no safety to forget to take off. .86 seconds from a competition holster is great and my hats off to you. Oh yes, walking through the thick bush with your safety off in port arms and stoked, probably gets real tiring after what 10 minutes? Lets face it guys unless the Bear is dopey, stupid ,slow or groggy he can get to you and your chances are slim to none with a rifle. Way better with a Big Pistol or better yet with a Shotgun( loaded right). Wish I could say otherwise but even a .600OK to the foot will only piss off a big bear. BTW a .500S$W with a 400gr brass solid( not some stupid Hollow point) at 1600- 1800fps will penetrate pretty damn well.-Rob

I guess I am getting off the mark also, but would a 12 ga. (2&3/4" shells) with slugs be considered adequate? A double with slugs would make a cheap/reliable double if it is a good stopper. I've been hunting for over 44 years and never shot anything with 12 ga. slugs.
How about a 405 Win. in a lever action Model 1890whatever, the one like Teddy Roosevelt used? They are being reproduced again.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
I guess I am getting off the mark also, but would a 12 ga. (2&3/4" shells) with slugs be considered adequate? A double with slugs would make a cheap/reliable double if it is a good stopper. I've been hunting for over 44 years and never shot anything with 12 ga. slugs.
How about a 405 Win. in a lever action Model 1890whatever, the one like Teddy Roosevelt used? They are being reproduced again.

My first trip trip to Alaska was as a teen in the early 70's to survey pipeline. We carried Slug guns; buck, then slug, slug,slug.

Never felt all that comfortable even though I had killed deer,hogs and black bear with slugs.

Grizz is a "whole new world" as they say.



The 1895 Third gen .405's are great guns, love mine, (and my Browning 71 in 50AK)

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
I guess I am getting off the mark also, but would a 12 ga. (2&3/4" shells) with slugs be considered adequate?

Don't do it if you value your life! Had a friend in Southeast AK lives in Juneau, shoot a legitimate 9 footer (he had hunted more than a few years consecetively before he found this great Southeast bear, actually a great bear period but an exceptional Southeast AK bear). Long story short they were (I think) fishing but they had left their 375 H&H's on the big boat and just had their 12ga with slugs. Of course that's when the bear they were after (a nine footer) was 25 yds below them bedded in some alders as they dropped off a ridge, they contemplated getting their rifles (bear was bedded down) but they (he and his son) decided the 12 ga with slugs at 20-25 yds was a no brainer. WRONG! They put two shots into the front shoulder (later examination 4 inches apart) with two going away into the hips. They came back the next morning with friends thinking bear is a dead bear but the bear had traveled a good distance away and they had to shoot the waiting bear that came at them 4 times with 375 to stop the charge. The Slugs had very little penetration before breaking up approx. average 4-5 inches of total penetration with both hip shots at 2 inches of penetration. IF, and I say IF your going to use slugs they must be of a brass/copper make-up like a Barnes not lead slugs on big brownies.

So wombat, what softs do you use in your 500 NE?

Thanks,

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
I guess I am getting off the mark also, but would a 12 ga. (2&3/4" shells) with slugs be considered adequate?

Don't do it if you value your life! Had a friend in Southeast AK lives in Juneau, shoot a legitimate 9 footer (he had hunted more than a few years consecetively before he found this great Southeast bear, actually a great bear period but an exceptional Southeast AK bear). Long story short they were (I think) fishing but they had left their 375 H&H's on the big boat and just had their 12ga with slugs. Of course that's when the bear they were after (a nine footer) was 25 yds below them bedded in some alders as they dropped off a ridge, they contemplated getting their rifles (bear was bedded down) but they (he and his son) decided the 12 ga with slugs at 20-25 yds was a no brainer. WRONG! They put two shots into the front shoulder (later examination 4 inches apart) with two going away into the hips. They came back the next morning with friends thinking bear is a dead bear but the bear had traveled a good distance away and they had to shoot the waiting bear that came at them 4 times with 375 to stop the charge. The Slugs had very little penetration before breaking up approx. average 4-5 inches of total penetration with both hip shots at 2 inches of penetration. IF, and I say IF your going to use slugs they must be of a brass/copper make-up like a Barnes not lead slugs on big brownies.

Breneke makes a hard lead slug that would be my choice if I had to be carrying a 12ga slug gun. No expansion, full diameter, or close, about .72", 1 1/4 oz iirc.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
You all aught to do the TIMED BIG BORE shooting test. How many of us with our BIG BORES can fire a SINGLE round from a slinged rifle position into a paper plate at 15yrds in 1.5 seconds? I just tried it and I cant do it! A human or a bear will be in your lap in 1.5 seconds from 15 yrds BTW. Even from a port arms position its tough with a Big bore and the bigger the gun the longer it takes. Getting my teeth knocked out with a bad cheek weld just isnt in the cards although if II were about to be chewed on I suppose I'd alter my thinking. I could draw from a holster and shoot my .500 S&W 4" twice in 1.5 second though and hit the target once. From Port arms with a saiga-12 I could get alot of lead on paper easily by hip shooting. Missed every time with the rifle.-Rob

.

.
. Already been thru this many , like 20 years ago ...... . Phil has been thru this also , as has alot of guys here .. Phil published some great articles about just this kind of thing ... .... Being very well aware of whats around you is paramount to not getting chewed .............

Perhaps you 600 guys have had brain damage ,,, I don,t mean in any way to be rude .. But if you are packin a rifle that will knock out your teeth for bear protection .......Your brain just ain,t workin right ....... A nice little 416 Taylor will solve about any brown bear problem you can end up in if you are paying attention even a little , and if necessary can be very sucessfully be fired one handed ....... Can be shot very well by little 110 lb girls , who want to shoot one . and will knock the tar out of a big bear ............. A bit bigger rifle is nice , as long as when you need it , which may be when you least think you will you have it along and ready ......... ....

.. .. ..... . It has always proved out that a chambered rifle in the hand was faster and better at killing a bear /stopping a charge than a pistol in a holster ..............
.
. Hence the nice light tough compact easy pointing bear rifles ..... A rifle that can be packed in the hand all day long in the brush .............Big problem with the OKs , even Kid's 8 lb OKs unless you have 3x long fingers ................ Standard action Rugers like my 458 w/canoe paddle stock are perfect .. Like Michael458s B&M series . The 458 and 416 , w 18" barrels , just the ticket ... Remember , your working , not bear hunting .. Your thinning trees , or counting fish at a weir , or dredging for gold ...... WORK ,WORK WORK hard ass make your hands tired and cramped and cold ect work .. . Hands that are tingling numb from running a power saw as fast as you can go for 6 1/2hours.... Hands that have cuts and bruises and a bunch of devils club in them that are just starting to fester ...... And you expect to hang on to some small bazooka at an instants notice ........... HA HA ,,, You Joke !!!!!!!

Perhaps we do have brain damage from taking the time to learn to properly shoot these weapons. In the same way as you I don't mean to be rude but have you ever fired a 600 Ok with a moderate load of say 900 grs @ 2150 fps with a stock that fits? Just cuious.
In my experence, to the man everyone that has ever tried that load was surprised at how controlable it was.
Maybe you have fired a 600 and found it too much which is fine but I've shot much hotter loads and have all of my teeth oh BTW my brain is workig just fine and I would know if it wasn't but I don't find it necessary to inuslt people with different opinions than mine.
At least we agree that being aware of whats going on in your area is far more important than the caliber rifle you are toting about.

I thought this would be a fun topic to banter about. Too bad like so many discussions of late the tone turns hostile with name calling and insults if you have a different opinion than the "experts".

I am happy to accept whatever each of us finds comfort in but I also have my own thoughts and have as much a right to them as you do.

BTW, if you have numb hands from runing a saw for 6 and a half hours how does that have any effect on your ability to opperate two weapons of the same basic construction. How is the bolt on a 458 win easier to work than
the bolt on a 600 with sore hands?

Well, It was fun while it lasted.

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:

quote:

Always carry a heavy handgun on you--mine used to be a .44 -4'',now a .500- snubby,in a center chest carry rig.

Good advice!

To hijack, one time while goat hunting on the gulf coast of AK I hiked down to my camp at saltwater for more food. My camp was between two streams choked with pinks. I'd been out several days in hot weather and smelled worse than the dead fish, so I built a fire on the beach and grabbed a bar of soap. When I went to the water's edge the tide was going out and there were bear tracks in the wet sand! I did a quick look around, sat my rifle on the sand, and went for a freezing swim. Almost immediately there was a hell of a lot of splashing and comotion from near a big rock outcropping on the beach. I immediately "knew" it was a bear, got to shore, grabbed my rifle, and wondered, now what?, as I stood there au natural. The noise continued, so I slowly crept up the rocks barefooted, until I could see the other side....

...where a tide pool had trapped a ton of salmon that were splashing about attempting to escape, and no bears were to be found.

Thank God I was alone or I'd still be living that one down!

Lol good story...
Today I scooped out a salmon swimming upstream on the beach with my bare hands... made a nice dinner =)
No bears to be seen.

I just got done guiding my apprentice thhrough converting a RugerMini14 from .223 to .458 Socom.
I loath those guns, and it was a hell of a challenge, but it throws 405 grs at 540 m/s with no recoil in a short, light gun. 3+1, smack-smack-smack-smack.
As defence in NA? Unbeatable!

quote:

My vote would be for a M1A SOCCOM if your intent on using a rifle. 20 rounds of 308 will cure any 2/4 legged (or wheeled) problem.
.

For what was Originally Asked,a Stopping Rifle for Bears in Alaska....This REALLY Would be a Great choice-short,weatherproof,reliable,light recoil and 10/20 quick rounds of .308 (with proper bullets) would stop any Bear but Quick! and yes,I happen to have one!(Synthetic stock,16" barrel and all metal coated/rustPROOF!) Forward mounts for Fast Red Dot too! No,it isnt what first comes to mind,but think about it

In that vein---the .458 Garand

http://www.mccannindustries.co...arand/458garand.html

quote:

Originally posted by fritz454:
Perhaps we do have brain damage from taking the time to learn to properly shoot these weapons. In the same way as you I don't mean to be rude but have you ever fired a 600 Ok with a moderate load of say 900 grs @ 2150 fps with a stock that fits? Just cuious.
In my experence, to the man everyone that has ever tried that load was surprised at how controlable it was.
Maybe you have fired a 600 and found it too much which is fine but I've shot much hotter loads and have all of my teeth oh BTW my brain is workig just fine and I would know if it wasn't but I don't find it necessary to inuslt people with different opinions than mine.
At least we agree that being aware of whats going on in your area is far more important than the caliber rifle you are toting about.

I thought this would be a fun topic to banter about. Too bad like so many discussions of late the tone turns hostile with name calling and insults if you have a different opinion than the "experts".

I am happy to accept whatever each of us finds comfort in but I also have my own thoughts and have as much a right to them as you do.

BTW, if you have numb hands from runing a saw for 6 and a half hours how does that have any effect on your ability to opperate two weapons of the same basic construction. How is the bolt on a 458 win easier to work than
the bolt on a 600 with sore hands?

Well, It was fun while it lasted.

.. .
.
.
. The difference is EXPERIENCE you just happened to put forth a question that I have alot of personal experience and success with .... ....... ....................................The problem is you don,t know what you are talking about ........ Why don,t you try to tell Ganyana , or Ivan Carter ,ECT ECT ECT that they NEED a 600OK to stop an elephant or buffalo , to say nothing of a lion charge ..... Heck , tell Pondoro that ...... If you are cruising timber ect . YOU DON,T HAVE A GUNBEARER .... Your the Gunbearer ..... But thats NOT what you are getting paid for .... Your are there to work , and in Alaska if you don,t get ALOT done you are Down the road .. Fired ,,, Walkin down the road , kickin rocks mad and talkin to yourself ....................... You say you know how to shoot a 8-10 lb rifle pushing a 900gr bullet @ 2150 fps .. ... Obviously you have never had to walk on blow down timber . on speed bark because it was the only way to get thru a devils club patch and heard a bear under/to the side of you .... I have ..... Ya think it for nothing I designed and worked up rifles to give me 5 K ft lbs of energy ,, with an over 40 cl bullet that won,t disintegrate from a moderately light rifle
..... .. ......... Try walkin up a fish crik and have to swing around and shoot a bear while you are in 2 feet of fast flowing COLD water with a slimy bottom ... Torch off you mini bazooka .and see if you can stay on your feet and not drop your ( Bear Protection )............ You probably do know tons about the 600 OK ... But I know the rain forests of coastal Alaska . And the Punks in brown and black fur coats that live and eat there ........ I,ll stick with my rifles that have always put the bears dead on the ground ,and didn,t knock out my teeth ....Or break my thumb , middle finger , twist out of my hands and fall muzzle first in the mud , there by allowing a 400 lb bear cub to chew me up one side and down the other .......... You claim to be an expert ,ect with the 600 tooth breaker ...... I,m may not be an expert at dealing with brown bears ...... But I have much much much more experience than 95% of the members of A R ..........In this particular area ....................... Oh and the difference between a 458 and a 600 OK , isn,t working the bolt , it,s staying on your feet ( se PWS's Vid shooting his OK and getting knocked down ) and him talking about mini black outs ...!!! . The difference is keeping hold of the rifle and remaining conscious and focused on the bear ,.......................Alot of times even a 500 S&W is TOO much recoil to control ..... Forget the snubby ..

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:

quote:

My vote would be for a M1A SOCCOM if your intent on using a rifle. 20 rounds of 308 will cure any 2/4 legged (or wheeled) problem.
.

For what was Originally Asked,a Stopping Rifle for Bears in Alaska....This REALLY Would be a Great choice,short,weatherproof,reliable and 10/20 quick rounds of .308 (with proper bullets) would stop any Bear but Quick! and yes,I happen to have one!(Synthetic stock,16" barrel and all metal coated/rustPROOF!) Forward mounts for Fast Red Dot too! No,it isnt what first comes to mind,but think about it

..
.
. A friend of mine thot so too ... He used his for a year or so , shot @ a deer one time . and sometimng went wrong with the thing and it wouldn,t work ......----------------------- About 50 or 60 years ago I think it was Handlogger Jackson , who tried a Garand .. Someone out of Ketchikan. Fired 1 round at a nice black bear and the gun quit working .................

.. 375 Ruger Alaskan works Great 1st time every time ...... I expect the 416 Alaskan will also .......

Gumboot458- Look. Dont get your panties in an uproar. Chill out. No offense but YOUR not the only person with real EXPERIENCE here and YOU dont know a thing about whether the .600OK is the worlds best Bear stopper or not DO YOU. Because, YOU have absolutely no experience with it, directly now do you? Frit454 was simply laying out an interesting scenario and he got alot of good input,even maybe some of yours. Let me let you in on a secret through NO ONE LISTENS TO YOU WHEN YOU INSULT THEM. I'm not an expert on Alaskan Bears and maybe you are or youre not, but I'm a damn good judge of character. My advice is Bury the Hatchet. My EXPERIENCE is OPINIONS are like assholes, everybody has one but nobody wants to look at the other guys! -Rob

Since you bring Phil up, doesn't he post as something .458? Also, didn't he carry a .458 Win Mag for something like 20 years?

Now he said he's trying a lighter, .375 Ruger.
I bugged him a bit, and, he admitted the gun was free.

I will go back to that little Merkel double, in 9.3 x 74R, or, a bolt 9.3 X 62. Pretty much everything that a 375 will kill, that will as well with a 286 grain bullet.

You have a very valid point about carrying a gun in the bush.

If I remember right, Rob Leahy is up there, and, he uses a 375 H&H to take out the trash...

GS
Phil's opinion last time this came up:
458Win
one of us
Picture of 458Win

Posted 05 October 2006 22:06 Hide Post
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ONE BEST BROWN BEAR CALIBER. A good bear hunter can make do with most any reasonable caliber. For most of the past seventy years the rifle of choice for the vast majority of Alaskan guides was the 30-06 and it still works as well today -actually even better with modern bullets - than ever. I have used one to kill half a dozen big bears - including serious up-close full-on charges.
That said, I don't consider it the ultimate big bear caliber but it works.
I don't have the exact number of bears my clients have killed over the past 25 years but it is somewhere between 100 and 150. In my experience the "ideal" calibers begin with the 338 Win, include the 358 Win, 35 Whelen, 9.3x62, 375H&H and up to the modern 45-70 loads.
The various 416's and 458's are great as a stopper for guides who might be required to stop a charging, wounded bruin but are absolutely un-necessary for any qualified hunter after un-wounded bears. If you honestly can handle one well they are fine but 99%+ of every hunter I've seen carrying the biggest bores are unreasonably afraid of both their rifles and of bears , which is a deadly combination. That is why if you ask the vast majority of experienced big bear guides what caliber they recommend they will recommend something close to what I have. A gut shot bear with a 460 WBY is a lot more dangerous than one heart shot with a 30-06.


"The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt" Bertrand Russell

Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Gumboot458- Look. Dont get your panties in an uproar. Chill out. No offense but YOUR not the only person with real EXPERIENCE here and YOU dont know a thing about whether the .600OK is the worlds best Bear stopper or not DO YOU. Because, YOU have absolutely no experience with it, directly now do you? Frit454 was simply laying out an interesting scenario and he got alot of good input,even maybe some of yours. Let me let you in on a secret through NO ONE LISTENS TO YOU WHEN YOU INSULT THEM. I'm not an expert on Alaskan Bears and maybe you are or youre not, but I'm a damn good judge of character. My advice is Bury the Hatchet. My EXPERIENCE is OPINIONS are like assholes, everybody has one but nobody wants to look at the other guys! -Rob

...
.
. Your Right Rob . And I do apologize for being rude ............
.
. .. I have been along this subject for a long time .. When I got my 500 A-2 It was great , but really too much of a good thing ...... Larger would be worse for this application .......

More recent post, same subject:

quote:

458Win
one of us
Picture of 458Win

Posted 08 February 2008 22:36 Hide Post
Folks can choose to listen to the "expert' of their choice and are free to use whatever caliber they want.
The 30-06 was the most popular guides rifle for nearly fifty years and worked just fine for the man who could shoot.I have used mine to kill quite a few large Brown bears and still say that anyone who claims it is ineffective has either not used one - or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship. I still carry one much of the time.
I do use a 458 Win - and have for the past twenty five years - when guiding Brown Bear hunters as my shooting consists in cleaning up messes made by folks who could not competently use the big magnum they were using.

Choose a rifle you can shoot well, choose a good bullet and practice with it.

And for what it is worth "living year around in the bush" does not mean never going any place. I just spent the last two weeks at the SCI and SHOT shows and am currently visiting clients for two weeks before heading back to Alaska.


"The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt" Bertrand Russell

Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

http://forums.accuratereloadin...961041311#6961041311

From what I've gone through, and, from what the guys hunt with, and use, I have to say the 9.3 x 62 is perfect, with 286 grain bullets. Pretty much the same as the 375 H&H, but, less recoil, much lighter rifle.

On a side note: We've had two, 1200 pound brown bear taken by guys in this area, and pictures up in the shops, until they closed. By chance, both took 11 rounds of .375, both having two guys doing the shooting, to finally take the bears down.

That was hunting, not stopping.

Anyone know how velocity affects bears?

One other note on shot placement: Some guy built a 4 bore, and wanted to take an elephant with it. He went to Africa, and, finally ended up gut shooting a cape buffalo, that went 60 yards before it finally piled up. I figure that if they can go 60 yards, after that, I better buy a .375 H&H, since nothing I can carry will assure a 1 shot stop.

Is that also true of bears?

This is food for thought, I am sure some will be offended, its not to be derogatory, but rather to incite thought and discussion.

Something puzzles me, when did 20 rds of 308 equal one round of 458? Does that mean 100 rds of .22lr will do the job? 500 rds of 17 mach2? Big brownies are tough critters, they come fast, and take a well placed hefty chunk of copper clad lead to dissuade him from using you as a monkey flavored toothpick. I have heard stories of guides trading in their 338 mags for 375s because the 338 wouldn't stop a maligned boar. Personally, I have never worked as a Brown Bear Guide, so I may be talking out of the flatulence orifice, but I have noticed most BB guides carrying 375's and 458's. 416s seem to be gaining numbers though. And I have yet to see one carry an M1A. Although the M1A was a great battlefield rifle, even Shaquile O'neil is puny when compared to a small Brownie. A hot loaded 45-70 would be more compact, lighter, and better on bear and be a good starting place. The best advice, take the biggest rifle you can shoot without getting rattled and take a sidearm with the same qualifications.


However, one may ask, "But I've killed bear with a 270 win before!" True, but how long before the bear expired? A CNS shot with any caliber will put any critter down for good and lightning fast, no denying it. The trouble is, a bear is built like a panther tank. The front end is heavily armored protecting all the vitals , and bears learned not to charge in reverse!!! And once a bear charges, the vitals look like a ping pong ball in the ocean during a hurricane, a difficult target to be sure. So if a CNS shot is out what is there? Heart and lung is fatal, but not instantaneous. Animals can run 500 yds or more with no heart and no lungs. Hmm, seems like we may be stuck with a CNS shot if we want a bear stopped right now. Under that circumstance, the 270 doesn't look so good, we want something that will penetrate that skull and hit the thinking place or travel beyond and take out the spine.

Now one can argue that a .308 is better than nothing, much as one can argue you can still walk with only one leg or write with only one hand. Personally I think that #1 often will lead to #2.

Lets yam about shotgun slugs for the moment. On the face of it, a 1 oz slug chugging along at near 1600 fps would seem to get the job done, but then why have those that have tried it trade in for a big bore rifle as soon as their underwear are cleaned? If we delve into big critter killing science, the three things you need are Weight, check, velocity of 2000 fps or greater, not quite there, and a sectional density of .300 or more (not sure how this came to be, but it is a standard, and lets assume its true for sake of argument), assuming Chuck Hawks has it correct, we are sitting at .117. Not very deep penetration when compared to a 45 cal rifle projectile at .350. Unfortunately, big critter killing science was developed in Africa on big bovines and pachyderms. the applicability to big bears may not hold true.

This leads me to my final rant of the day, why would anyone buy a rifle that knocks the wind out of you, is a bear to carry all day, and cost 1/2 of your first born's child's college fund to keep fed if a 30-06 class calibre would do?

As a corollary, why is there so much dissension amongst hunters as to what will stop a bear? The answer is simple, bears want salmon, not monkey meat. Bear attacks are rare, most confrontations end without incident to man or bear. Those most likely to see a bear attack are guides, animal control people, and idiot hippie filmographers that believe they are immune from bear maulings. The best way to defend from bear attack is an ankle bell, you will not likely see a bear when you sound like the ice cream truck in winter. The best way to see a bear is to hang out by the river with a bunch of salmon gut piles laying around. And the best way to study to be a ursine periodontist is to come between momma bear and her young!

John
Doing my best to keep myself out of bear poop.