Gumboot458- Super and I actually do believe you have way more experience than any of us with Alaskan Bears. These scenario discussions should not raise our blood pressure and many if not most of the guys here actually make good hunting buddies. Frit454 is a real good guy and has helped many of us. He is a master machinist and was a huge help on the .600Ok project. You'd like him. Dont let the BS stick to your shoes! -Rob

It sounds to me from those that live in AK you're only going to get one maybe two shots off if a bear decides you're on the menu. For me that means I want the biggest baddest hole puncher I can shoot accurately and with enought recovery speed to increase my odds of making it two shots and not one.
Gumboot458, no hard feeling on my part. I just happen to like the really big bore stuff and any excuse is a good one even one that's total BS. To give you an idea I have 6 MRC PH actions ordered and I have all the fixins I need to make a 700 DA, and another 600 OK. These were projects long before this post got started. Hell Jeffe and I spoke about hte 700 DA a year or more ago it could be two years. I have barrels here waiting since 8 weeks or so after that call with Jeffe.

I've always wanted to do a SXS double rifle and Rob has me inspired. The program is done, I have enough steel for at least a dozen and a half (16') of 4140. THe caliber will be 12 ga fh, 700 DA 600 Ok or something very much along those lines. Maybe a 2 bore or a side by side one bore.

Rob, Have you seen a MRC PH action yet? ----- Anyone?
If so how about a report and a few photos.

Yes,the Big Hole guns do the trick and the recoil makes if even more fun! ...Just remembered my good pal/gunsmith Jack Huntington is going to make a few modern Howdah's in .577 something(maybe NE?)..Now that would be handy for up close and personal,a double pistol with 15" barrels tossing 600 grain bullets!

Kid

I thought I was a nut case, but you have me beat "BIG TIME" or should I pun and say "Big Bore"?

Michael

Fritz454- Interesting discussion here and where its leading. Those Howdah pistols were developed to deal with a really fast and deadly animal ( Tigers) at very close range when all else went badly. Maybe we need to learn from the past.
Heck If your crazy enough you can easily ( Ha ha) make a 16 inch barrelled 12GaFh HowdaH style Pistol griped shotgun. Or make the barrel even shorter and register it as a SBS. God help you and the Bear if it ever doubles though!
Talk about Shock and awe!
I deceided to make my DR with 19 inch barrels for exactly the reason that should it ever double or I accidentally double it, that it would be survivable. I lose a little velocity, but 1000gr bullets at 1750 fps is still a formidable killer with very deep penetration as the sd approaches .3 (RIP). The DR is also very well balanced, fast and snappy. Yup when the chips are down there is NOTHING like multiple Big Gaping Holes through the assailant to bring peace to the situation.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Kid

I thought I was a nut case, but you have me beat "BIG TIME" or should I pun and say "Big Bore"?

Michael

OK,WHAT YOU WANT,WITH COMPLIMENTS LIKE THAT,YOUR UP TO SOMETHING??! ....WHAT NEXT,ROSES?!

Kid


Michael

............. There are many parts of this bear encounter stuff a guy doesn,t want to type for all and sundry to read .... The gumint boys are always looking for a pay advance ,something they can constrew in a court of lawlessness to take someones freedom away .....So there is alot I don,t talk about .........
.
. Most of the places I lived in the brush , I would beg people from town to come and kill some bears ............................................ It,s wierd people you would think would jump at the chance and yet they are too lazy or chicken ................I,m talking places where I could show them 10-40 bear a day ......................There have been a few bear that were a problem for me that I feel were perfect situations for a 416 Whby , because it would need to be a tree stand deal and the shot they offered was over 300 yrds away , always ............. Thats why I got my 1st CZ 550 Saf Mag . And had one been available when I had the $$$$$$ I would have got one in the Rigby and pushed a 350 gr X up as close to 2900 fps as I could .............. Those bears are still there tho , and bigger ..............................
.................... I figured the 16" twist would not keep the 400 gr X stabilized @ that distance ............. Still may do it , just to get some of mine back from those pricks ........ Ran out of time when I was there................
.
. With the light weight 600 of Kid's the biggest problem comes from being able to stay on your feet .............................. It's a rain forest you are having a very challenging time staying on your feet ..... In the timber , the ground is full of holes and is either up hill or down ........................................Even with corks on it can be a challenge ............

Nobody really went into this, but what combination of caliber, bullet weight, and velocity gives you end to end penetration on a large brown bear?

Is it possible to get that penetration with an expanding bullet?

I think SAFARIKID has had full length penetration with exit on brown bear using his "shorty" 500 Jeffery.
Rodney.

Tom around to tell us what bullet, solid?, and, if he chronographed that load, or any load, out of his snubbie rifles?

Also wondering if Rob has tried short barrels, and, heavy bullets in the 12GFH and the .600OK, and chronographed them?

"Those most likely to see a bear attack are guides, animal control people, and idiot hippie filmographers that believe they are immune from bear maulings."



Love the bear guy reference.

What about a full stock CZ in a 9.3? Short barrel, light weight, and not much recoil...

Many have discussed their experiences with handling recoil and shooting big bores on slippery terf etc., but has anyone asked the kid headed to Alaska what sort of recoil levels he's comfortable with, and how heavy he wants his carry gun to be?

I know the primary function of the rifle will be as a protection piece, but surely he'll want to hunt or at least fart around with it on occassion. Maybe a cal like a 458 Lott or win mag would be less punishing and cheaper to "plink" with than a 600. However, if he can handle the recoil and doesn't mind the expense, I can only imagine the fun he'll have with a shoulder howitzer like that.... Probably attracts women better than a new puppy too... always about priorites with us younguns... big guns and fast women

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
"Those most likely to see a bear attack are guides, animal control people, and idiot hippie filmographers that believe they are immune from bear maulings."



Love the bear guy reference.

What about a full stock CZ in a 9.3? Short barrel, light weight, and not much recoil...

Many have discussed their experiences with handling recoil and shooting big bores on slippery terf etc., but has anyone asked the kid headed to Alaska what sort of recoil levels he's comfortable with, and how heavy he wants his carry gun to be?

I know the primary function of the rifle will be as a protection piece, but surely he'll want to hunt or at least fart around with it on occassion. Maybe a cal like a 458 Lott or win mag would be less punishing and cheaper to "plink" with than a 600. However, if he can handle the recoil and doesn't mind the expense, I can only imagine the fun he'll have with a shoulder howitzer like that.... Probably attracts women better than a new puppy too... always about priorites with us younguns... big guns and fast women

I don't think a 9.3 would be all that far off, it is often compared to the 375 and should fit the bill, and yours is the 74 anyways. I think fritz is sold on the 600 OK and really wanted to inquire about the suitability. The 458 win is more than adequate, and performs well with short bbls. Anything above that is overkill, but considering some of the things I have shot squirrels and bunnies with, I can't, in good faith, criticize anyone for overkill. It is a wise guide (or man in general) that recognizes what he does best and operates within those parameters.

John

There is no question that both the .600Ok and 12GaFh ( even more so) benefit from longer barrel lengths. The 12GaFh is burning around 240gr of powder and needs lotsa barrel to get that done. However you can still get very respectable power in as short as a 16 inch barrel tossing 1000gr bullets. I would estimate that you could get 1750fps with little problems. Thats 7K ft-lbs. Given these huge .729 slugs penetrate pretty well, its gonna be pretty fair bear medicine in a very fast handling pkg. I've yet to recover some of these bullets from the tree trunk test. Now with one barrel a load of ball bearings and the other a solid and assuming you were fast enough and aware enough say good night to mr Griz.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Rodney H.{500Jeffery}:
I think SAFARIKID has had full length penetration with exit on brown bear using his "shorty" 500 Jeffery.
Rodney.

Yes,I did...I shot him on the 6th day of a 10 day hunt and was getting nervous as previous season,I skunked after 10 days of gale force winds,snow,etc(and 22k!)...So,My Cute lil Blondie popped out in a claring at a lasered 169 yds..I had my 500 Jeff with 16" barrel,scoped with a Leup 1-5..He turned away and I fired,hit his right glute and it came out his chest!?!(Barnes 570XLC Copper bullet at 2200' chronied I think)He then ran up a small hill and into the alders very sick...we went to impact spot and guts and blood everywhere!Amazed that he wasnt dead on spot?!...We went into Alders and he was facing us...I took out my 5" BFR 50/110 with 525 cast at 1600 and put him to sleep for good at about 20 yds. ...I also shot 2 Cape in Tanzania with the same rifle months before,same load and both went in and out the buff,through the shoulders..Both one shot kills with a little short death run ....Overall,I was NOT happy with the Barnes X type cooper bullets as I was in the past...The wound channels on the buff were like a solids,not alot of devestation?!I may have got a bad batch that were a lil to hard? Anyway,Short barrels over 50 cal are not affected much at all!Why lug a 24" when the animal still dies as fast with a 16-22"...Just my 2 cents!

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
There is no question that both the .600Ok and 12GaFh ( even more so0 benefit from longer barrel length. The 12GaFh is burning around 240gr of powder and need lotsa barrel to get that done. However you can still get very respectable power in as short as a 16 inch barrel tossing 1000gr bullets. I would estimate that you could get 1750fps with little problems. Given these huge .729 slugs penetrate pretty well, its gonna be pretty fair bear medicine. I've yet to recover some of these bullets from the tree trunk test.-Rob

Sure,longer will burn it better,but we loaded Varget in my 600 OK with a 16" barrel and 900s and got a honest 2100 easily! Recoil was fine due to the integral brake...here is my smith shooting it..he is a avg size dude and see him shoot it for all you recoil shy "girly guys"! (just pokn fun guys!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGfu3Rge8Xo

Tom:
With 900 grain to 1000 grain bullets, I gather you can use expanding bullets, and still get huge penetration?

Yes,I have shot solids,but they "Ain't No Fun"...They just drill big holes....I prefer,even on Cape Buff and Bison Premium Softs...They just make a "Bloody Mess" and seem to have more "Shock and Awe" in my WMD's! I also shot a HUGE Bison at 50 yds running away,again in the right buttock(not the anus) and it came out his chest(musta been 9-10ft?!)He dropped like the Hammer of Thor hit him,slid and a 1" stream of blood under presure was flowing at least a foot out of his chest! That was with my .700NE Double,with 1000gr Woodleigh SOFTS!!! Wow,what a rush that was! Solids are for Elephant,Hippo and Oak trees!

Huge Bloody Gaping holes are Good.-Rob

If I'm walking around in bear country, it's because I'm hunting something. So I'll use my .300 Magnum Weatherby Ultralightweight (about 7.5 pounds with scope) hunting rifle, with which I am so familiar that it's basically instinctual to shoot it. I'll get on target and fire quicker than someone with a ridiculous .600 caliber they almost never shoot. I'll also be able to shoot something at reasonably long range. Stainless barrel, synthetic stock, who cares if it rains in Alaska? That rifle will function long after a double is a pile of rust.

Of course if bear was what I was hunting, I'd take a heavier rifle, like a .375, or my .458 with 350 grain TSXs loaded to 2600.

And I won't get tired out carrying 5 pounds of pistol. I might take some pepper spray instead. Studies show it's more effective than a pistol anyway.

"Remember, Most people cant actually work a bolt gun much faster than you could reload that Single shot thumbreak."

Oh, really??? Then show me all the rapid fire champions at Camp Perry who used single shots.

For the purpose intended, forget about single shots, AR platforms, .308s, shotguns, ball bearing loads, and all such stuff. If you shoot a bear, it MIGHT run away and you MIGHT be able to see it running for 200 yards or so. If so, you want the ability to put more shots into it. That means hitting the vitals, at relatively long range, with a Texas heart shot. Most grizzes don't weigh any more than a bull elk, which means you can do that with a .300 magnum (or 9.3, .375, etc.) with good premiun bullets. Why follow it up in dense alders if you don't have to?

IMHO Nothing can replace a 4" S&W 44 Mag in a cross draw holster.

You have it with you ALL the time, so if you are suprised or knocked down you might be able to get it out in time.

When I sleep in a tent in Bear country i WEAR my 44 Mag in the sleeping bag.

Now a rifle is no doubt better if you cant get it into lay before the charge reaches you.

Since the only shot that is GUARANTEED to save your bacon is a brain shot, you want a rifle that can reach the brain.
One that shoots quick, does not have much recoil, is reliable, and not too long, big and heavy will do the job.

A Short M1-A, or an H&K 91 in 308 with the proper bullets would not be a bad choice.
A Lever in 44 Mag or a 45/70 again with the correct bullets will work.

You do not want too much recoil for a protection gun, rifle or pistol.

Hunting is a little different than strictly protection IMHO.

For instance, if I was to hunt brown bear with a handgun I would use my 475 Linebaugh, but it has too much recoil for strictly protection.

I would carry my 4" 44 Mag as backup to the 475.

Indy- Just curious, Just How many Griz charges have you personally faced and survived with your 300wby ultralight? -Rob

I've had built several of these off of a stainless .375 Action. I've got one left. It is chambered in .458Lott with a 22" stainless barrel and then blued. The stock you see here was an abortion after it shot out of it's Brown. the latest version is stocked in McMillian. The sights are AO ghost rings it hold 4 down 1 up. This would pretty much fit the bill as no on sense AK carry gun IMO.

Sure strike .. Agreed !!.. A modern rendition of Ben Forbes 450 Watts ...A rifle that was in on more than 250 brown bear kills from what I understand
.
........ He did go to a458 Win mag in the 70,s ...
.
. What happened to the other stock for that rifle ???????

Big Bore Boar Hunter, This has been simply a what if discussion for me. As I posted earlier it was for a friend's boy that it all got started. It is true I would probably go with a 600 but I wouldn't put money down on that one yet. Rob's idea regarding the large bearings from the 12 ga fh intrigued me and I got to thinking about doing the same in a 600. I find a 600 a very shootable piece with practice. The above video proves that out IMO.

Anyway, it looks like the kid is planning to take along my 500 A2. It’s less than 9 lbs fully loaded and he will be taking off the scope. His old man is going to buy him a 500 S&W so he can’t leave it leaning up against a tree or in the truck while he steps out to answer natures call.

There are dozens of not hundreds of viable workable solutions to this "what if".

It has been my very limited experience as the actual hunter but mostly as a tag along witness that there are actually two totally different types of bears you are likely to run into.Those that don't know you're there and /or don't know what you are yet and what levl of threat you are or if you're a possible food souceand those bears that are already on high alert and ready, willing and looking for a fight. Those bears that are pissed off at you already for whatever reason (Cubs, food, territory, bad mood, hunger or whatever it is that puts a bee in its bonnet). The latter of the two can be hard to put down and can require a good deal of lead before giving it up.

I've never been around on a grizzly kill but have on three or four dozen black bear kills so I certainly am no expert especially whwn in comes to grizzly, kodiacs and brown bears. I hardly have a scientific sample. This is why I have been pushing hard for a big T-Rex killer but my assumptions may be completely off base. I've been wrong before.

Also, remember I started this thread to help me offer a good friend some experenced advice. I didn't and still don't feel qualified to answer his questions without some help. Remember, ultimately I'm looking to possible save my shooting buddie's son from some physical harm who is headed to AK.

I’ve had the honor to watched this young man grow up to become a respectful hard working member of my community who has earned my respect and become like family.

I would like to thank each and everyone who took time to offer their view point on this subject. - John

Kind of curious how many feet of bear you get for penetration, using a 500 grain .458 Lott, or win, soft point.....

Anyone actually shot a bear with a .458?

This thread has a lot of solid answers to Fritz454's original questions so I can't really add much more and the magazine/double debate is practially immortal.

But... I'll throw in some observations. There's a HUGE difference between firing a .600OK with and without the brake with the same load let alone different power levels. There's not much difference between the recoil of a 150gr 30cal at 2000 vs 2300 but there's definately a noticable difference when the bullet weighs 900grs.

Loads in the level of Fritz454's proposed 600OK load at 1900fps feel about like full power Lott loads in terms of controlability. Given a short, handy rifle that has been fired enough to be familiar, I'd tote a .600OK with mid range loads but, for me, the top loads are definately way over the top. Those loads are beyond everyday practical.

Having been "aggressively approached" by too many sows with punks while hunting with a pistol, I feel much more comfortable following the muzzle of a big bore rifle. Like most gunnutz, I'm still putting together the "perfect" rig. What Michael458 and others have proposed are some fine options for light, handy, powerful, weatherproof little powerhouses.


Keep in mind that if it comes down to it, you don't have to kill an attacking bear, you just have to turn it. That alone opens the door to many options and as Rob initially pointed out, it's back to the age old question of what's optimal for self defense. It's easy to get fixated on one aspect of a system but don't lose sight of the whole. That '06 you have in your hand while deer hunting beats the perfect rig back at home anyday.

Good post above,I do agree with 3rd paragraph... 900 grains at 1900 would not be bad in our lil braked rifles(we are at 2100 now) and that actually is the load for the Brute Classic .600NE Double rifles which have been the Benchmark for African Stopping Rifles for the last 100+ years by the likes of many a White Hunter (no offense Mr.Obama Sir! )in days of good ole Colonial Africa/Dark Continent!

SAFARIKID,
Interesting that you got complete penetration (in at southeast end, out at northwest end, on a northerly brownie) and narrow wound channels with the Barnes .509"/570-gr XLC at 2200 fps MV... on a shot at 169 yards on brown bear?
That would give a pretty low impact speed.
I would have to look at the BC tables and 'puter for that. Well under 2000 fps, I guess?

That same bullet at 2400 fps MV, with impacts at 25 to 50 yards, opens up broadly and will not even exit on a broadside chest shot on a large bison bull, even if only ribcage, lung, and hide are in the way.

I don't think variable hardness of the Barnes copper was involved, just impact velocity, and a tendency of the Barnes XLC to "pencil through" when they don't open. May have tumbled and exited base-first like an FN, after poking a pointy initial hole, nose-first, if they went that far!

That starts to put some MV and range of impact brackets on those Barnes monometal copper bullets.
BTW, I think the XLC bullets were better than the TSX.
The XLC was .509" after it got the blue Smurf coat.
The TSX is about .508" naked.
And both are intended for use in a .510"-grooved barrel!

Likewise interesting, the end-to-end perforation of a bison with a .700"/1000gr Woodleigh RNSN, and 50-yard impact?
What was the MV there?
Those slow down quite a bit at even 50 yards. I wonder how much that Woodleigh opened up if it exited?
Answer: not much.
1000 grains of jacketed and bonded lead, with the nose flattened slightly by impact would work better than a 45-70 Govt. with 540-grain Hammerheads at 1500 fps, and we all know those penetrate forever!

Stainless Double Rifle:
Butch Searcy used to make them.
Not offered anymore?

I would like to find that picture of a charging brown bear that a hunter stopped at about 25 feet with a 300 WinMag to the brain.
Great action photo of the charge, just before the shot, Saeed posted here years ago.

That bear was shown in a determined close-range charge, an ambush in the alders.
The hunter stayed cool with his "deer rifle." He lived to show-and-tell of it.

Yes on the XLCs,but whatever the reason,I dont think my batch wasnt expanding as I noted on 2 cape with same load a month earlier...bith went in and out the other side?!....The 700NE on the Bison was a Soft Woodleigh and it DID exit into the Wyoming Plains..."Where the deer and the antelope playyyyy"

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
Sure strike .. Agreed !!.. A modern rendition of Ben Forbes 450 Watts ...A rifle that was in on more than 250 brown bear kills from what I understand
.
........ He did go to a458 Win mag in the 70,s ...
.
. What happened to the other stock for that rifle ???????

gum,

This was our first try with a .458 Lott on this platform. We messed up a couple of things. First off the barrel had to thin a tapper and the gun was weighted to far aft. We went with a slightly thicker taper on the later versions and that really helped.

The original stock was a Brown 1 pounder that we tried to beef up. When I look back I really don't know what we were thinking? But that light barreled .458 Lott simply destroyed the front recoil lug pocket. Multiple times despite cross bolting etc etc. We finally cured it on this rifle with an additional front recoil lug and a tougher stock. On the current version we've gone with an aluminum skeleton and a really good bedding job it seems to be holding together just fine after 300 or so rounds.

RIP askes..

"Stainless Double Rifle:
Butch Searcy used to make them.
Not offered anymore?"

No he doesn't offer them anymore.

A bear like a human that can no longer see or smell you isnt going to be a major threat anymore. Nor is a bear or human thats been wounded so severely that it looses interest in pushing the charge as was pointed out. Thats why I like shotguns, particularily ones chucking steel ball bearings at 3000 fps or so. My worst case senario is I'm caught off guard by an ambushing bear or Human. You have to remember Bears and Humans are very efficient predators and both are very effective at ambushing their prey. Thats a huge advantage and they make full use of it! In that situation, I'm at a huge disadvantage and operating purely in training mode, if I'm lucky . I know that Making a GOOD ENOUGH and Devastating shot with a short shotgun is infinitely easier than with a pistol or rifle. Frankly within 25 feet a rifle would be my last choice weapon unless its barrel length was less than 16 inches. Pse note that many Marines in WWII prefered trench guns over sub machine guns when fighting the Japanese in the pacific particularily at night!They still do today in CQB in Iraq and Afganistan. TRY it sometime! Dont kid yourself. If your not caught un awares, thats a different situation and yes a bullet to the head will end things quick. The problem with std shotguns is not enough penetration on a big animal like a bear but perfect for humans. The 12GaFH solves that problem and for those that argue "too much recoil", my comment is trust me, when your pants are wet you wont notice the recoil, and you'll be pleased with the gory results.-Rob

"I'll get on target and fire quicker than someone with a ridiculous .600 caliber they almost never shoot."
I don't have a .600 at the moment, but will have one coming. About the above comment, guess Indy does'nt know some of us very well. Had to comment on that.
Rodney.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodney H.{500Jeffery}:
"I'll get on target and fire quicker than someone with a ridiculous .600 caliber they almost never shoot."
I don't have a .600 at the moment, but will have one coming. About the above comment, guess Indy does'nt know some of us very well. Had to comment on that.
Rodney.

Not sure who posted the comment, but the first shot is never the problem with a big bore, its the second shot! And heaven help you if you need a third! In the realm of overkill, it seems like the 700 AHR is leading the pack though.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Rodney H.{500Jeffery}:
"I'll get on target and fire quicker than someone with a ridiculous .600 caliber they almost never shoot."
I don't have a .600 at the moment, but will have one coming. About the above comment, guess Indy does'nt know some of us very well. Had to comment on that.
Rodney.

Not sure who posted the comment, but the first shot is never the problem with a big bore, its the second shot! And heaven help you if you need a third! In the realm of overkill, it seems like the 700 AHR is leading the pack though.

John

Hiking over bear territory in Alaska I would say you might only get 10 yards notice in the woods with all that ground cover so you might only get one shot and a side arm for back up makes a lot of sense. I can see why my short and quick guide gun would be quite handy. Have not seen a bear yet but moose and a young caribu.

I am having fun with this post,as are the others...interesting,a lil blown out of proportion,but fun anyway!....IF I lived and worked in the fields of Alaska,(I would chase Sarah Palin-ha!)...no really,I would carry a Light weight/weatherproof 458 Lott with 450 X type expanding copper bullets,QD scope mounts with a 2.5 Leup and backup sights/peep.I would always have my 3" 500 Smith with Barnes Copper 375 grains for backup(firing pins break,guns jam,etc/murphys law)...You can nail them up to 200 yds with the Lott and get end to end penetration and the recoil would not be a problem to most guys....I luv my 700s,600s and 500s,but I would be confident with this comb for sure!This gun is pictured way back on this post..under 7 pds loaded with 4 rounds,scope and sling!...Sure,my 600s are great for this,as is a 577 Howdah,a M14 with 20 308s,a Shotgun with ball bearing buckshot too for up close!...Thank goodness for choice!...(oh,I Always carry a BIG Bowie Knife too!-I Really do!!)

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

Hiking over bear territory in Alaska I would say you might only get 10 yards notice in the woods with all that ground cover so you might only get one shot and a side arm for back up makes a lot of sense. I can see why my short and quick guide gun would be quite handy. Have not seen a bear yet but moose and a young caribu.

Interesting you bring up moose. I believe Bullwinkle was responsible for more attacks on people than Yogi. I think a guide gun makes sense! I think most posting are having lots of fun. As normally the case, there really is more than one road to OZ.

John

Tom, thanks for all the information, and experience on the subject. I was wondering if you chronographed the 18" barreled Lott, and, if so, with what bullets, and what results?

Rob: I've watched your projects for a long time, and, this is one of the few times I'm having a hard time getting exactly what you want to do.
The rap on shotguns on bears, at least according to the forest service, is they might turn the bear, or they might not. That said, you must have knowledge of the penetration you can generate with the 12 gauge FH. You want to shoot 00 at 3000 ft per sec?

I see sort of a few problems here. At the ranges this stuff happens, you may not get more then one shot, so, as you've said, it better be good.. Wonder if that's enough penetration?

Tom:
Your last recommendation probably makes the most sense, since it is the most economical way of setting up a rifle for a kid, and, the caliber can be found everywhere, not to mention being able to shoot .458 Win mag in the same gun(have you done that, and, if so, does it always work?)

Wow, this has been fun to watch, and there really have been some great discussion, some really good options, and some not so good options presented.

We all have our opinions and thoughts on the matter. I have the most respect for those who live and work in Alaska, most of them know what it is going to take for this job. The rest of us can visit and speculate. Me? I can't take the damn weather so I will always be just a visitor, thank you! As for cartridge or caliber, I would always vote 416-510 as being most useful and being able to be housed on a light, short, easy to carry platform. Most saw my previous photos of my votes on this, but I do have one more that I think would do the job nicely too. Also I would have a handgun of choice along with any rifle, but it would be a rifle and not anything less.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by mwm464:
No one wants to hear this, as I've posted in other chats, but a big can of OC that produces a 10' cloud is gunna be a lot more easier to hit with. Most companies claim a greater than 90% effectiveness....

I have carried the HD20% stream type spray (and later the stream/fogtype) in the National Parks where I could not(legally)carry a handgun

My primary thought (in spite of the so-called success reports) was that it was just--

Seasoning ME to Taste .

Besides if the wind is wrong----