quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

quote:

Originally posted by mwm464:
No one wants to hear this, as I've posted in other chats, but a big can of OC that produces a 10' cloud is gunna be a lot more easier to hit with. Most companies claim a greater than 90% effectiveness....

I have carried the HD20% stream type spray (and later the stream/fogtype) in the National Parks where I could not(legally)carry a handgun

My primary thought (in spite of the so-called success reports) was that it was just--

Seasoning ME to Taste .

Besides if the wind is wrong----

Take the can, attach an m80, light and throw it at the bear. It will disorient the bear for sure, and start a forest fire.

John

GS- The 12GaFH can launch a cloud of 35, .33-.36 ball bearings at near 3000 fps. Penetration is about 3X that of a std shotgun. Thats equivalent to about 4 2 3/4 9 OOB/shell std 12 ga loads. Im getting 16-22 inch penetration estimated in 5gal buckets filled with my version of ballistic gelatin. With most Buckets basically being torn to shreds. Should do for bear dont you think? -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
GS- The 12GaFH can launch a cloud of 35, .33-.36 ball bearings at near 3000 fps. Penetration is about 3X that of a std shotgun. Thats equivalent to about 4 2 3/4 9 OOB/shell std 12 ga loads. Im getting 16-22 inch penetration estimated in 5gal buckets filled with my version of ballistic gelatin. With most Buckets basically being torn to shreds. Should do for bear dont you think? -Rob

Thanks Rob. .36" ball weighs about 70 grains, so you are sending 2420 grains @ 3000 fps? That's no joke. Still, @ 70 grain ball doesn't penetrate really well does it?

How about .5" 173 grains, and maybe 14 balls?

My real choice would be .6", and about 300 grains. Why? I have no idea, other then 300 grain bullets tend to penetrate very well, and nothing heavier is really practical, is it?

How about a stack of 4 600 grain bullets, or 5 500's?

Besides, a 68 grain ball, at 3000 fps just doesn't sound like you.

I'd expect something more like two 1200 grain paradox bullets stacked up, or something like that....

I'm sure the energy transfer is truly spectacular, and, if my energy figures are right...
How many balls are you loading at one time?

Are you really shooting something with nearly 50K ft-lbs of energy?

Safari Kid, Surestrike, and Michael458 all have PERFECT setups!!!!!

200+ yard reach, lots of punch, easy handling, easy feeding, no overboard recoil, durable - perfect companions in the bush.

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Thanks Rob. .36" ball weighs about 70 grains, so you are sending 2420 grains @ 3000 fps? That's no joke. ...

GS,
Yes, that IS a joke!
You are confusing lead ball weight with steel ball bearing weight.
2420 grains at 3000 fps?
Rob did not say that.
Rob is not that crazy!!!

Perfect weapon for this exercise?

I am going to have to swallow my pride and accept the Ruger M77 Hawkeye in .416 Ruger.
A perfect use for the 20" barrel, stainless and synthetic all over, with factory open sights.
I can rest easier now.
We are all safe for sure.

Of course it could be rebarreled to .458 WinMag and then subsequently rechambered to .458 Ruger ...
Think I can be the first on that one too?
Under 6 pounds dry weight? Very thin barrel I reckon, and a 1-pound stock.

Now just how light and short can a 12GaFH NEF-er be?

I'll have to ditch the brake and the golfball launcher, and chop the barrel to ... 19" is as far as I go!
That will be as short as a Hawkeye .416 Ruger with a 15" barrel, but the 15" Hawkeye ain't legal!

How thin can the barrel be tapered to at the muzzle?

Can I find a barrel band front sight with an H&H moon bead to fit it?

Barrel band sling base?

Single, fixed, shallow V rear express sight?

Remove stock weight from the butt.

One shot may be all you get.
Single shot will do.

Copper-plated depleted uranium .395-caliber balls?

I got another project for my no.2 NEF-er from hell!

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
Kind of curious how many feet of bear you get for penetration, using a 500 grain .458 Lott, or win, soft point.....

Anyone actually shot a bear with a .458?

.
.
. It's not uncommon to have 1 shot from a number of different carts where there is 1 shot and 4 holes , or 3 holes ... Because of how thick it is sometimes the bear is coming around something to get at you and so your shot may be in the neck then out the ribs then in the back leg or ham then out again ........
.


a 9 lb 500 A-2 What load ?????????.

. I have had over 4 ft of penetration from the 350 gr X with a mv of 2500 fps close to 4 ft with the 300 gr X, mv,2700 fps and a baseball size hole thru the bear . I could look THRU THE DEAD BEAR .............. Master Guide Andy Runyon was a huge advocate for 40 cal carts . with SCREAMIN velocities .....And He killed ALOT of bear ..............
.
. Charges can start @ 15 ft ,very common 20-30 feet .......a bear can and sometimes charge your scent ,like when you are packin meat .....I know of that happening at least 8 times to people I know ........ For the real close stuff 40-458 cals are best ............ IME NOTHING to be gained by a heavy for caliber bullet ,, That being said I don,t think there is a great loss to a good expanding normal for caliber bullet ,ie 400 gr in .416 ,500-510 gr in .458 .. I really like the Winchester 510 gr bullet with the great big blue nose ...... It can make a great big hole in stuff , but is a great deer bullet , doesn,t expand unless you hit a bone ... I got rid of my 9.3x62 .. Its a great round , but I didn,t want to get into a fight with a bear with it ......The 64 has about 700 ft lbs on it and is the same as the 375 H&H ect so I feel comfortable with it .............I have never , and I only know 1 person who has been able to brain a bear in a charge ... . That bear was arrowed and charged the guy with the rifle was ready and the shot worked out .. They were on a grass flat , and the rifle was an 06 ..................... It was either brain it or bleed .........I know alot of people who have had to kill charing bears ......... 1 out of 20 or more isn,t very good chances if you are relying on a small caliber braining a bear ...........
.
.A friend measured the penetration of a 430 gr cast Buffalo Bore 45/70 load shot from a Guide Gun and it went 58" as best he could measure .. The bear went 8'2" I think and it DUMPED it ......
.
. Use Enough Gun , when dealing with dangerous game .....

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:
...(oh,I Always carry a BIG Bowie Knife too!-I Really do!!)

.
.
.
.
. If I met you out in the brush someplace , and you DIDN'T have some ( Now That's a Knife ) knife .. Ide shake my head , throw my hand down , turn around and walk off ...!!! I,m suprised you don,t have one of Ben Lily's design swizzel sword type knives ... He B. Lily , killed bears in Louisiana with one .......
. Safari Kid ,just wouldn,t be Safari Kid , without some great big huge knife .. . I like big knives also.
.
.
. Oh and as far as having to kill bears with a deer rifle , I do .. My deer rifles are 416s and 458s ......
.
. But heres something to think about .. The bear that killed and ate most of a deer hunter on the southeast side of Baranof Is 20 yrs ago or so .. Was killed in full charge by 2 men , 1 with a 338 Win mag and 1 with a 338/06 ...... I believe the bear quit coming @ shot # 12 ... And they were able to start shooting it from quite a ways out .. The 338 would knock the bear down and it would bounce up and keep charging ........The story is in Alaska Bear Tales . I talked to the guy who killed the bear ,,what he told me is the same as what is in the book ...It was a big bear ....... Oddly enough he credits a drunk deer hunter that wounded the bear in the foot in the final yards of the charge with giving him enough time to get another round in the rifle and get in a good shot ................

Gs- Your calculations are wrong. However, my memory was wrong also. I just looked up that load in my log and it was 35, .22 ball bearings not .32 I have a record of another load of 18 ,.375 ball bearings at about 1000 gr. at 3000 fps. I have launched 2000gr bore riders at over 1700fps from my Borchardt 12 ga FH. A NEF could not stand that load. As for penetration, more than enough to make a huge mess of a bears head. -Rob

.. A little note on the heavy for caliber bullets , . In the under 375 . , tho I don,t know if they work faster than the modern super bullets in the lighter and standard weights , . But in the 338 the 275 gr is great in 358 the 280 Swift is great .. in 9.3 B.. I like the 285 gr but in the 62 the 250 wt. ....
.
. the 300 gr .338 , 310 gr .358 ,320 gr 9.3 , and 350 gr .375 . Woodleigh bullets no doubt work , but I don,t think they turn any of them into a 416 ...............................
.
. However a number of bear guides have proven the fast bullets in 375 on up not only kill very reliably ,but occasionally produce shock that heavy , slow bullets often don,t .........
.
. I think 458Win is doing alot of testing with the 375 cal. 350 Woodleighs ... @ 2300 fps or so .. I,m looking foward to his results .........

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Gs- Your calculations are wrong. However, my memory was wrong also. I just looked up that load in my log and it was 35, .22 ball bearings not .32 I have a record of another load of 18 ,.375 ball bearings at about 1000 gr. at 3000 fps. I have launched 2000gr bore riders at over 1700fps from my Borchardt 12 ga FH. A NEF could not stand that load. As for penetration, more than enough to make a huge mess of a bears head. -Rob

Kind of thought so. 50k ft-lbs would mean recoil like a 105MM howitzer...
From the film I've watched of bears charging, the head is NOT an easy target, even with a shotgun. Wouldn't it be better to rely on penetration, end to end, to slow the bear down, or try and shock it a bit, with a heavy bullet,
expanding, at relatively high velocity?

OK,its Friday and I am having a good day,so I thought I would share a few more option,some may be a lil "Overkill"!The Hole(Entrance) in the Buff was from a 2000gr Soft 4 bore round and the last pic is my 10'10" Alaskan Brownie..
my 500 Smith,my 50/110 Snubbie BFR,a 2 Bore,my Big Bowie"Grizz",my 4 Bore Double and Jessie The Body Ventura as a backup with his lil GE Mini-gun!

Safarikid- Nice pics. GS your missing the point. With a 12GaFH double rifle, At 15 ft or less the head of a bear will be a easy target as its coming to eat you from that direction, usually! A 12 GaFH load of 18 .375 ball bearings will be a nasty surprise. The next shot with a 1000gr solid out of the other barrel at 1750fps aught to finalize things. I cant think of a better or more assuredly lethal approach than that. Ok , OK Yes a Mini gun would work just as well but they are very expensive and hard to carry unless your Jesse Ventura.-Rob

Here is a whole different way to "skin a cat/bear"...I just sold some ammo to a guy in Alaska."Gerry" drove a garbage truck for I think 30 years and he is retired now.A very interesting man on religion,politics and Alaska itself!....He had many a run in with bears and garbage(they seem to go together)..He,are you ready for this,carried a short barreled 12ga double with.....#9 Shot!!! ...He said that load in the face up close took out the nose and both eyes !Then of course,Mr Bear wanted no part of you....Not my cup of tea guys,but this is what he did! I have his email if anyone would want to talk to him and his "sparrow loads"

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Safarikid- Nice pics. GS your missing the point. With a 12GaFH double rifle, At 15 ft or less the head of a bear will be a easy target as its coming to eat you from that direction, usually! A 12 GaFH load of 18 .375 ball bearings will be a nasty surprise. The next shot with a 1000gr solid out of the other barrel at 1750fps aught to finalize things. I cant think of a better or more assuredly lethal approach than that.-Rob

Thanks Rob...here is a 8 1/2' Blondie taken with the 500 Jeff "Grizzinator" (16" Win 70 Classic action,Laminated stock and 6 1/2 pds)

SafariKId- Thats been my plan for any predator that wants a piece of me!If it cant see you or smell you anymore its just a TARGET! Of course this only works at very close range, but it Works!-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Safarikid- Nice pics. GS your missing the point. With a 12GaFH double rifle, At 15 ft or less the head of a bear will be a easy target as its coming to eat you from that direction, usually! A 12 GaFH load of 18 .375 ball bearings will be a nasty surprise. The next shot with a 1000gr solid out of the other barrel at 1750fps aught to finalize things. I cant think of a better or more assuredly lethal approach than that.-Rob

Thanks Rob...here is a 8 1/2' Blondie taken with the 500 Jeff "Grizzinator" (16" Win 70 Classic action,Laminated stock and 6 1/2 pds)

Nice bear, I'm starting to get the itch again....

John

most common cal. in ak is the 338 win mag. The important thing is not doing alot of wandering around when the berry season has been slight.

quote:

Originally posted by winbag338:
most common cal. in ak is the 338 win mag. The important thing is not doing alot of wandering around when the berry season has been slight.

And here I thought it was still 30-06....

John

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Safarikid- Nice pics. GS your missing the point. With a 12GaFH double rifle, At 15 ft or less the head of a bear will be a easy target as its coming to eat you from that direction, usually! A 12 GaFH load of 18 .375 ball bearings will be a nasty surprise. The next shot with a 1000gr solid out of the other barrel at 1750fps aught to finalize things. I cant think of a better or more assuredly lethal approach than that. Ok , OK Yes a Mini gun would work just as well but they are very expensive and hard to carry unless your Jesse Ventura.-Rob

Hi Rob

I'm sure the idea is sound, but, I'm having a bit of a problem with the numbers. Now, 18 .375 bearings should weigh around 75 grains each, so, we'll say about 1350 grains @ 3000 fps. THAT gives you 27k ft-lbs of energy, and, I think that would probably take Mr. Bears head off. The problem is physics. Recoil is 618 ft-lbs,with a 12 pound rifle, around 930 ft-lbs if it's one of Tom's 8 pound lightweights, which means Mr. Bear maybe dead, but you maybe, too.

I have heard of muzzlebrakes so effective they actually stop recoil, make the gun pull forward, and down. Yours work like that?

When I look at that idea, it REALLY reminds me of the payload a high rate of fire, M-16 can put on target, and, it can do it just about as fast as the 12GAH, and, with POINTED or softpoint bullets. 950 rounds per minute? That's about 16 rounds a second, real close to what you are talking about, and, in 2 seconds 32 rounds. Then you can use the M203 40 MM greande launcher to finish Mr. Bear. It's very light, has NO recoil, and is totally controllable in full auto fire.

The 12GFH is certainly a far more socially acceptable solution, however.

Tom: That is a beautiful bear. Congratulations! I've always liked the .510's. They just seem to be the most cost efficient
of the big calibers, other then the 458s.

Thanks to Sean for letting me shoot his .500 Nitro Express, and Jack for shooting his .510 Van Horn. Both GREAT calibers...

Just be sure you kill the bear, not just wound it. That's the big problem I have with shot of any type. It's dangerous to follow up in the thick stuff, and irresponsible not to.

Morons where I used to live would shoot bear with 22s "to sting them" and chase them away from fish racks. That pissed me off royally. Nothing like a nice festering infected wound to put a bear in a good mood when someone else happens by weeks later, possibly unarmed. I killed one brown bear that had several teeth shot out (bullet fragments IN the bone, with some bone growth over them, along with infection, so it had been some time). He also had bullet fragments in a front leg. He followed me, repeatedly, while I was moose hunting and I yelled and backed off several times when he got to 35-40 yards. This went on over the course of a mile. I thought about it that night and shot him the next day even though it invalidated my Kodiak bear permit for the following spring because he was a problem waiting to happen to someone. I was outraged when I saw the source of his suffering. I consider him a fine trophy at his modest 7' 3".

Now, 7 years later, I finally drew Kodiak again! (spring 10, Olga Bay)

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by winbag338:
most common cal. in ak is the 338 win mag. The important thing is not doing alot of wandering around when the berry season has been slight.

.
.
. I wander any where and any time I feel like it ......... That sounds like something kabluy would say ... What a bunch of bs .....
..
. And tho it isn,t my idea. The 06 is sadly the most common rifle caliber in Alaska .....It pains me to admit it but its true .. Not the best by a long ways , but the most common ...

GS,
You are still putzing around with lead ball weights in your pocket calculator?
Is this your version of pocket pool?
Stop that!
Go look up some steel ball bearing weights to enlighten Rob with some more kinetic energy and recoil values.

The steel ball bearings are lighter than lead.
They will not be too bad on the rifling if only used to stop charging bears.
They will penetrate better than your soft lead pancaking balls.
Now get your hands out of your pockets and commence to calculating some more!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
GS,
You are still putzing around with lead ball weights in your pocket calculator?
Is this your version of pocket pool?
Stop that!
Go look up some steel ball bearing weights to enlighten Rob with some more kinetic energy and recoil values.

The steel ball bearings are lighter than lead.
They will not be too bad on the rifling if only used to stop charging bears.
They will penetrate better than your soft lead pancaking balls.
Now get your hands out of your pockets and commence to calculating some more!

At least according to Beartooth's ball calculator(boy, is that a pun waiting to happen )
the weight doesn't seem to matter much, since with that size ball, it's not enough variation from antimony,wheel weights,
linotype, etc. to really make much difference one way or another with that size balls...

I mean, Rob of anyone should really be playing with much bigger balls...

Now if Searcy if I recall correct still made the stainless synthetic 470 double that would be a pretty sweet alaska rig

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Indy- Just curious, Just How many Griz charges have you personally faced and survived with your 300wby ultralight? -Rob

None.

How many have you faced with pistols, single shots, ball bearings, shotguns, or whatever?

I've seen grizzlies while hunting but one look at that mean Weatherby and they run the other way.

quote:

Originally posted by Rodney H.{500Jeffery}:
"I'll get on target and fire quicker than someone with a ridiculous .600 caliber they almost never shoot."
I don't have a .600 at the moment, but will have one coming. About the above comment, guess Indy does'nt know some of us very well. Had to comment on that.
Rodney.

The 600 N.E. was pretty much abandoned for hunting in Africa 50 or 75 years ago. To be recoil-manageable, it weighs so much that you just can't carry it all day, and penetration with the 900 grain bullet at 1900 fps was less than .500 and .450 calibers. Bullet selection was minimal as well. I can't see how it would be a good choice on grizzly.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
GS,
You are still putzing around with lead ball weights in your pocket calculator?
Is this your version of pocket pool?
Stop that!
Go look up some steel ball bearing weights to enlighten Rob with some more kinetic energy and recoil values.

The steel ball bearings are lighter than lead.
They will not be too bad on the rifling if only used to stop charging bears.
They will penetrate better than your soft lead pancaking balls.
Now get your hands out of your pockets and commence to calculating some more!

Talk of stopping bears with ball bearings in a shotgun is pretty much science fiction.

For one thing, ball bearings penetrate less than lead shot of the same size (make them with hardened lead and they don't pancake).

For another, any African PH will tell you that buckshot and shotguns should not be used against charging lion. It does not stop them. Now a real wild lion weighs maybe 350-400 pounds. How much does a grizzly weigh?

So why would anyone even consider using a shotgun on a charging bear?

GS,
Still fondling your balls?
Confusing lead alloys with iron alloys? There is a difference in weight!

From the X-files:

Remember when Saeed had only 277 posts?

A 300 WinMag spine shot on a charging Kodiak was what I was mistakenly recalling as a brain shot:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
GS,
Still fondling your balls?
Confusing lead alloys with iron alloys? There is a difference in weight!

From the X-files:

Remember when Saeed had only 277 posts?

A 300 WinMag spine shot on a charging Kodiak was what I was mistakenly recalling as a brain shot:

I don't know who was holding the camera, but he (or she) had balls of steel! Hitting a spine on a running bear is no easy task, that big ole head is in the way 3/4 of the time.

John

RIP:
Not really.

I think the major thing Rob has going for him is absurd velocity, pretty much equal to a .223 rifle, with a light bullet, but, 18 of them at once. Why they would penetrate enough, considering 223 solids don't penetrate real well, voodoo!?

I'm not sold on the penetration aspects, but, I suspect the perception caused by blowing up water jugs with em might alter ones perception of what it would do to a bear.

I do get the idea of blinding the bear, but again, not an easy shot...

I can't get over that picture. It's a wide angle lens, yet that bear still looks HUGE!.

I have read some intresting replies to your question double or bolt? I have own both and love the 470NE and my .500 jeff even more for getting close and personel with cape buff.BUT if you are that worried about bears then forget these and go with a good old shotgun loaded with 00 buck shot and solids !!!! thats the best close range protection you can get...if it can stop a ferral ox charge at ten feet then it can stop a bear in the blink of an eye

GS- Sorry dude but a .375 steel ball weighs about 55gr, not 70. RIPS told you that twice!
Indy I've shot two Grizzlys both under 30 yrds and one Brownie under 15 yrds ,two with a .458 Ackley and one with a .416 Rigby as well as maybe 8 cape Buff with various Big BORES including double rifles, like a 500NE and Rifles UP TO A 500A2. That doesnt make me an expert on Bears or Buff and I dont pretend to be. But I like shooting things CLOSE and have a fair amount of experience UP CLOSE! Please reftrain from telling us what does and doesnt work IF YOU HAVE NEVER DONE IT and please stop talking about the .600NE and the camp fire lore of why they dont work. Have you ever hunted with one? No, well I have! Got news for you with good bullets a .600NE will penetrate 6 ft of solid oak.
GS- you continue to miss the point! WHO GIVES A CRAP ABOUT PENETRATION IF THE INTENT IS TO BLIND AND DESTROY THE HEAD OF A CHARGING BEAR with one SHOT! Cause thats all you get if he's coming close. They do that you know!
. IF HE CANT SEE OR SMELL YOU HE CANT EASILY KILL YOU. A SHOTGUN IS MUCH BETTER AT CLOSE RANGE THAN A RIFLE IF YOU ONLY HAVE ONE SHOT! Now There is a BIG DUH! NO, A HEAD SHOT AT CLOSE RANGE IS NOT A HARD SHOT AT ALL.BECAUSE,GRIZ AND BROWNS ARE HUGE AT CLOSE RANGE and THE HEAD IS COMING YOUR WAY! YES, I believe 18 .375 Cal STEEL BALLS WILL DO IT and I'd stake my life on it ,way before I would with a .338 or .458 or a .600. rifle BTW ,if 223's dont penetrate well enough, tell that to the 3/8 steel plate I shot THROUGH last night with my P556( 10 inch barrel at maybe 2500fps) at 15 yrds. How much penetration do you think you need to get through an eye or snout? READ SAFARIKIDS post above! I didnt invent this idea, seems like those with lots of bear experience have figured it out for themselves. THE SECOND SHOT WHICH YOU NOW HAVE TIME FOR BECAUSE THE BEAR NOW ISNT GIVING YOU A LAP DANCE, FINISHES THE JOB! Then you USE whatever you want, with the second barrel of a short double being my favored approach. DO you get it now! You dont even need 18 steel balls, it seems a load of 9's will do the job. I just like the whole concept of OverKILL though if my butts on the line!-Rob

A man can tell if an egg is rotten without trying to lay eggs.

Buckshot is ineffective on charging lions, whether it is made out of steel, lead, or chicken fat. It's ineffective on bears. Heck, it's ineffective on deer beyond about 30 yards.

NO African PHs and NO Alaskan guides use a 600 N.E. for a backup rifle. If there were any merit to the idea, someone would have proved that in the 80 or 90 years since the cartridge was introduced.

What have YOU ever stopped with ball bearings? What have YOU killed sith a 600 N.E. that could not have been killed just as easily with a .458?

Continuing the ballgame:

Andy Fowler's son took the pic of him just before the shot.
Kodiak charging at 30 yards.
Andy's son has either big balls or a lot of faith in his pop, or both, since he chose to leave his slung rifle on shoulder and keep camera in action.
Pop Andy is shown with head up and rifle barrel pointing at center of charging Kodiak.
Instinctive quick shot?
Lucky spine hit?
The bear went down but was probably still popping his jaws, and maybe trying to drag himself forward on front paws.

The 300Mag will do it with a brain or spine shot.
You are very lucky when you miss the brain and hit the spine.
Luck is a good thing.

I guess a 12gaFH load of steel balls would have been more likely to penetrate the brain, inside of 30 yards.
The more balls and velocity, the better.
Point and shoot, good!
One shot, meat, two shot, maybe, three shot, heap big shit!

Backtracking:

SAFARIKID's .509/570-grain XLC that left the muzzle at 2200 fps, was fired at a bear at 169 yards after it turned to go.
Barnes claims a BC of .430 for that bullet.
I do not think that is an under-estimate.

Range ... vel
(yds) ...(fps)
0 ........ 2200
25 ...... 2153
50 ...... 2106
75 ...... 2060
100 .... 2015
125 .... 1970
150 .... 1926
175 .... 1882
200 .... 1839

The bullet went end-to-end and exited the bear.
Less than 1900 fps impact must not be enough to expand that big XLC.

Here are pics of what the bullet looks like with impact velocities of about 2350 fps and 2300 fps, at 25 and 50 yards, from MV just over 2400 fps, on a big bison.
The 50 yard shot was on the live animal,
the 25 yard shot was on the dead animal:







The 2350 fps impact (25 yards) expanded the XLC more than the 2300 fps impact (50 yards).
Both got big enough in diameter to put the brakes on the bullet. They both stopped on the other side of the chest of this lil' bull, "under the hide on the offside."
The GSC FN (.510/570-grain) powered by the same powder charge went into the rump and out the neck, at 25 and 50 yards also.
Bullet testing is great fun when combined with a trip to the meat processor.

Photo of charging bear:

It does look like his head is raised. Maybe he has fired and just raised it to work the bolt.

He is left-handed. If it's a right-handed rifle...

Looks like he had a furry mitt on the left hand.
Surely his trigger hand was not dressed like that.
Looks like the rifle butt is planted on Andy's right shoulder.
He looks like a righthand shooter to me, but your lefthand interpretation is arguable.
His head is up.
He is not looking through the scope.
Andy must be a good "instinctive shooter."
That is an old thread from 2000.
Must be lost on the several server changes since then.
IIRC, he got one shot off.
The picture shows him just before the shot, with Kodiak in midcharge, and the comments with the picture above seem to support that.
Missed the brain and got the spine, by luck.
Point and shoot at center of mass.
The bigger and badder the load, the better.
You have to be very good or very lucky with a "Kodiak Deer Rifle" like the 300WinMag.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy

Buckshot is ineffective on charging lions, whether it is made out of steel,

NO African PHs and NO Alaskan guides use a 600 N.E. for a backup rifle. If there were any merit to the idea, someone would have proved that in the 80 or 90 years since the cartridge was introduced

..
.
.
. Indy ; have you ever heard of Mark Sullivan .. He is a PH he works in Africa , and he uses a 600 Nitro side by side double ... The one in the dvd,s I have is a Marcel Thyse ....
.
.

Thinking through this charging bear with 18 steel buckshot pellets where the objective is to blind it at 15 feet (not kill it), has caused me to think of a few more aspects to this.

First, has anyone calculated how wide the pattern is at 15 feet? I suspect it's more like a rifle than a shotgun at that distance, or maybe just a couple of inches wide. Too narrow to get both eyes and the nose.

Second, even if the pattern is as wide as the whole head, or as wide as it needs to be, it would be a purely random occurence for the pellets to strike each eye and the nose. Miss one of those three and you're in trouble.

Third, how fast can a bear run? I don't know but I'll guess just over 30 miles/hour. That's about 45 feet per second (approx.) How do you shoot such a thing at 15 feet? 15 feet is only 1/3 of a second from impact. I suspect you'd be hard pressed, if you tried for 15 feet, to cut it any more accurately than somewhere between 0 and 30 yards. And yet if you're fast by 1/3 of a second--a very natural (and probably prudent) thing to do, the pattern is twice as large.

I think the guy with the #9 shot would be better off. Much more chance of hitting the eyes and smeller, but still a chance of missing, if you've ever looked at patterns.

gumboot,

OK, -1 for me. I have heard of Mark Sullivan but did not know he used a .600 N.E.

Regarding penetration, the sectional density of a .600 N.E. solid is just slightly less than a .458 500 grain bullet or a .411 400 grain bullet. This means that, if the velocities are the same, a .458 Winchester or Lott or a 450/400 will penetrate farther.

But the velocities are not the same. A .458 WM can easily be loaded to 2200 fps, maybe 2300 in the Lott. 450/400 velocities are about 2050. The .600 is only about 1900, listed by Kynoch 80 years ago. (Most Kynoch velocities are slightly overstated.)

This means that either of the smaller rounds will penetrate deeper than the .600 N.E.

I have only recovered one solid bullet, which was a .458 caliber 450 grain North Fork. It penetrated a Cape buffalo from from stern to front shoulder. Based on what a buffalo is made of, I don't think it would have penetrated six feet of oak and I'm wondering if anyone ever actually tried this with a .600 N.E. or any other round. Six feet of oak is pretty expensive.

I recall reading an article from the African Hunter magazine a few years ago that noted that most of the South African Guiding awards given for bravery and couragous actions during hunting incidents were to trackers who shot leopards off of the professional hunter who had failed to stop a charge using a shotgun with buckshot. Others were for shooting lions off the PH when a shotgun and slugs failed to stop a charge.

The thesis of this article was that, regardless of what Capstick might have written, shotguns with buckshot were not effectice at stopping leopards charges.