quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
gumboot,

OK, -1 for me. I have heard of Mark Sullivan but did not know he used a .600 N.E.

Regarding penetration, the sectional density of a .600 N.E. solid is just slightly less than a .458 500 grain bullet or a .411 400 grain bullet. This means that, if the velocities are the same, a .458 Winchester or Lott or a 450/400 will penetrate farther.

But the velocities are not the same. A .458 WM can easily be loaded to 2200 fps, maybe 2300 in the Lott. 450/400 velocities are about 2050. The .600 is only about 1900, listed by Kynoch 80 years ago. (Most Kynoch velocities are slightly overstated.)

This means that either of the smaller rounds will penetrate deeper than the .600 N.E.

I have only recovered one solid bullet, which was a .458 caliber 450 grain North Fork. It penetrated a Cape buffalo from from stern to front shoulder. Based on what a buffalo is made of, I don't think it would have penetrated six feet of oak and I'm wondering if anyone ever actually tried this with a .600 N.E. or any other round. Six feet of oak is pretty expensive.

Don't overlook the momentum carried by a 900 gr bullet, heavier slugs, despite their drop in velocity and SD, tend to slow down less in tissue.

John

. Not that it is my recommendation...but you guys arn,t understanding that a 12ga FH isn,t necessarily a shot gun ... It's a great big humongous rifle cartridge that operates at low pressure ..... The technology to fire 18 steel balls from a double RIFLE chambered for the 12 ga FH cartridge at a high velocity is what Rob is reffering to ..... . Trust me , it would probably rip a bears head completely off ..... For a view of what it would kindof look like look at my avatar of me with a Sitka black tail deer shot @ 80 yards or so with my 416 Rem , 300 gr X bullet MV>2825 fps .................Only that would be a somewhat headless bear there instead ...............................................
.
. Whether anyone could shoot the load ,I have no idea .. Anything burning 200 plus grains of powder gets mounted to a bench / ship / vehicle , ect if I,m going to shoot it ...........And I wouldn,t be packin it around ............. But work it sure would ..!!!!!!!!!!!!!
. However I bet had Timmy Treadwell had one at hand he would have used it when he actually realized he was being eaten .. As is recorded in the cam corder his girlfriend was using to record the event , she forgot to take off the lense cap however .........................
.
. Liberals never seem to think of the future .. At least not with clear thinking ..............

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
GS- Sorry dude but a .375 steel ball weighs about 55gr, not 70. RIPS told you that twice!
Indy I've shot two Grizzlys both under 30 yrds and one Brownie under 15 yrds ,two with a .458 Ackley and one with a .416 Rigby as well as maybe 8 cape Buff with various Big BORES including double rifles, like a 500NE and Rifles UP TO A 500A2. That doesnt make me an expert on Bears or Buff and I dont pretend to be. But I like shooting things CLOSE and have a fair amount of experience UP CLOSE! Please reftrain from telling us what does and doesnt work IF YOU HAVE NEVER DONE IT and please stop talking about the .600NE and the camp fire lore of why they dont work. Have you ever hunted with one? No, well I have! Got news for you with good bullets a .600NE will penetrate 6 ft of solid oak.
GS- you continue to miss the point! WHO GIVES A CRAP ABOUT PENETRATION IF THE INTENT IS TO BLIND AND DESTROY THE HEAD OF A CHARGING BEAR with one SHOT! Cause thats all you get if he's coming close. They do that you know!
. IF HE CANT SEE OR SMELL YOU HE CANT EASILY KILL YOU. A SHOTGUN IS MUCH BETTER AT CLOSE RANGE THAN A RIFLE IF YOU ONLY HAVE ONE SHOT! Now There is a BIG DUH! NO, A HEAD SHOT AT CLOSE RANGE IS NOT A HARD SHOT AT ALL.BECAUSE,GRIZ AND BROWNS ARE HUGE AT CLOSE RANGE and THE HEAD IS COMING YOUR WAY! YES, I believe 18 .375 Cal STEEL BALLS WILL DO IT and I'd stake my life on it ,way before I would with a .338 or .458 or a .600. rifle BTW ,if 223's dont penetrate well enough, tell that to the 3/8 steel plate I shot THROUGH last night with my P556( 10 inch barrel at maybe 2500fps) at 15 yrds. How much penetration do you think you need to get through an eye or snout? READ SAFARIKIDS post above! I didnt invent this idea, seems like those with lots of bear experience have figured it out for themselves. THE SECOND SHOT WHICH YOU NOW HAVE TIME FOR BECAUSE THE BEAR NOW ISNT GIVING YOU A LAP DANCE, FINISHES THE JOB! Then you USE whatever you want, with the second barrel of a short double being my favored approach. DO you get it now! You dont even need 18 steel balls, it seems a load of 9's will do the job. I just like the whole concept of OverKILL though if my butts on the line!-Rob

All right Rob. First off don't care much about what the weight of YOUR balls are. My estimates are close enough for government work, for recoil and energy, as well. Found your error in your post, which seemed a bit strange.

Now Indy, Rob is getting old, and, when you get old, you take joy in shooting things up close, since you can't see way down range. I now understand Rob's approach. He's doing what Sullivan does: provoke a charge, then kill the animal at very close range, usually with the second shot. Now here's where it gets fun. Sullivan uses that .600 Nitro Express because at point blank range it penetrates enough, and, when you hit something with the first barrel, it goes down, pretty much regardless if you hit your perfect target or not. A lot of folks I know say the same thing about the .450 Nitro Express, that the first barrel of a double, with a 480 grain soft, at 2150 fps knocked the 2000 pound steer/bear on it's ass, then they finished it with the other barrel. I suspect that's pretty much the same with the .458WIN on bears, or Phil S. wouldn't have been using it all these years.
What they don't tell you is if you whack it with the first barrel, and don't hit CNS, the thing gets right back up, mad as hell.

So, Rob thinks his ball bearings are enough to get Mr. Bear to turn, since he's not using a shotgun, but a shotgun on Steroids. Then he finishes it with the other barrel, using pretty much a .600 NE solid equal. So, he's using a double, to answer the original question.

The irony of a sorts, is if you employ Mr. Sullivan's method of point blank shooting, why not just take the whole thing?
If you want to shoot Mr. Bear at point blank range, Rob, don't you have faith that that .600 OK, or 12 GFH with an expanding bullet for the first barrel will do the job, knocking the bear down, so you can finish him with the other barrel?

Rob, your assumption is based on the theory that animals, when blinded, and hit in the nose, are going to turn. Bears, buffalo, etc. are called dangerous game because they don't do what you expect them to do. Comes to mind that bears do things like eat people that shoot them.
Handgun statistics show that shooting a brown bear with hand guns, ends up with about a 50-60 percent change of getting the bear to turn, and, about a 50% chance of the shooter being mauled, and, with brown bear, about an 80% chance of the shooter being killed, if the bear attacks. Those aren't good odds. Some animals, when blinded, may want to claw their way through what they think caused their pain, and die killing it. They don't turn, they don't run. They kill. As for Safarikid's post above: works for the guy until he meets the wrong bear.
Kind of like African hunters, in the old days. The guys that wrote the books are the lucky ones, not just the good ones.

K. Bell was caught with his rifle, on a plain in Africa, by a heard of cape buffalo. There was one measly sapling in the middle of the plain, and, he went up that sapling. By the grace of God, after the herd of 1 million or so cape buffalo went by the tree, took 45 minutes.
He was still alive. The wind switched, buffalos got his scent, charged again, and, he spent another 45 minutes in the treed, and, only by God's grace did he live. All it took was one horn hooking that little tree, and he was dead. No books, no more elephants.

I for one, would NOT risk my life on the theory that a 1200-1500 pound bear is going to be turned by a shotgun blast, even one like Rob describes. I'd much rather go with the proven Mr. Sullivan approach: hit it hard, at close range, with a heavy soft point, that's likely to go end to end on a bear, and knock it off it's feet, then brain it with the other barrel, at point blank range.

However, it's Rob's life, and, he did design those rounds, so have at it. Also, depends on your confidence, and your shooting ability.

As for hitting the head on a charging bear: Yep, it's huge. It's also bobbing and moving at 35 miles an hour as it comes at you...

.. Brief reality break .....
. When people are hunting bears , they don,t shoot them in the head .. thats what gets scored . It would be like paying 20 K to hunt sheep and aiming for a horn . .............
.
. I have never CNS shot a bear .. And I have killed them dead as a wedge with one shot to the chest with 416's and 458's ...........................\
.
. You guys need to come hunt some bears ......@ bow and arrow range with real rifles ......... You,ll learn alot !!!!!!!!

gumboat458
Thanks for keeping it real.

So, now we are at 18 55 grain balls=990 grains @ 3000 fps, gunweight 10 pounds=Recoil Energy of 512 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 57 fps.
Energy of 19,789 foot-pounds for a 990 grain bullet at 3000 fps.

Ahh, sure Rob, go right ahead and shoot that...

GS- Jeez you really dont know much about real big bores and muzzel brakes do you? Efficiency is more like 50% so Divide by 2. Gun weight is also 12-13lbs. Now recalculate. Finally, felt recoil is more related to bullet mass and the shape of the pressure curve. A low peak height pressure curve over a long time period is far easier to handle than a sharp, short one like from a .378 Wby. You gotta understand the physics so you can interpret the math properly. I shoot that all the time and so do others.Of course you have to know how!
I have far more confidence that I can hit a Bears head at 7-15 yrds ,even if its bobbing up and down with ANY Shotgun or Double Rifle vs a std bolt action rifle. In fact, since the ability of most shooters that I've seen, to hit any moving game even walking game with a rifle is near ZERO( and you know thats Particularily TRUE of hunters who use Wby's ) a shotgun Provides a a far higher hit probability vs a hail Mary rifle shot again particularily with a WBY with a BIG scope on 15X at 15 yrds). BTW most good shots on running game got that way by FIRST BEING GOOD SHOTGUN SHOTS in Trap or Skeet . Ever shot skeet? NO YOU were not BORN with that skill! If you Dont believe that, try hitting a basket ball rolling and bouncing on the ground at 35 mph with a rifle with one or two shots. Now try it with a shotgun. Big difference huh! What I'm saying is a short barreled 12GaFH DR is near PERFECT for this task assuming you've got the balls to stand your ground. Not everyone does. IF you dont like ball bearings then use 1000gr Copper Darwins in both barrels if you want to. Any doubts they will penetrate eyeball to asshole on a Bear at 12000 ft-lbs and a sd of .3? You also still have the ball bearing option though if your shooting at moving targets with a rifle really isnt up to snuff. I'll agree with you on one thing though It does take balls to shoot the 12gaFH. As usual there is a big difference between those who Google and those who do. Try a 12GafH or a .600Ok for yourself then make your decision. They might just surprise you . Trust me on this, when things go bad you wont ask for a smaller gun!.
Gumboot458- The scenario isnt about hunting trophys and I didnt shoot mine in the head, its about stopping a critter intent on eating you and what will do the trick with the highest probability. I love getting close, and hunted with a bow for years, but never for DG. Sounds like you need Balls for that. -Rob

There are a few reaseons that the 600 NE never gained a following back when it first became available the first being very poorly consrtucted bullets for the large surface area. Luckly we don't have that problem an longer. There are plenty of .620 bullets on the market that will penetrate many feet of ele, buff, bear, oak, engine block, whatever you can think of.

Recoil is subjective. Hell I remember reading in older boooks that the 357 mag would wreck your wrist if you ever shot it. Then the great EK and S&W came along wiht the 44 mag and there were plenty of writers that then said that the 44 was the upper limit if what humans could ever shoot. Well long story but now we have pleny of folks shooting 454s, 475 lin, and the mitty 500 S&Ws, and doing it well.

Not ot get too far off target here but don't sell ou the 600 NE or OK due to things you have read or heard from 50 or even 20 years ago it just doesn't apply today.

Just to stay in the "ballgame," I could go with three different pieces:

1. A 10-pound stainless/synthetic 500 Nitro Express double rifle with droplocks or sidelocks that I could clean and lubricate daily.
Graphite or something good in the cold.

2. Rob's 12gaFH double, but only if I could get it in stainless/synthetic and the weight could be kept down to
11 pounds, with barrels as short and light as necessary for that, droplock or sidelock. It would be fired with full power loads in emergency situations only.
The 12GaFH is bigger than a 700 NE, it is far more than a 600 NE.

3. Since I can't afford either of the above, I would have to go with something like this one, in either .375, .416, or .458 Ruger.
In the 20" stainless .375 Ruger Hawkeye with the canoe paddle stock shown, it weighs 7.25 pounds dry.
With a lighter stock, 1 pound instead of 1.5 pound, and the same contour barrel with .458 Rifling (definitely do-able),
it would weigh somewhere around 6.5 pounds dry.
Very handy and more versatile than either of the more expensive options.
I will just have to trust to skill AND luck:





I really can't make up my mind.

The Above Ruger is almost perfect in any of the 3 calibers offered(458 for me) and IF LOW COST is necessary ,than THIS is the ONE!...Light,weatherproof and affordable..Now,just practice alot!

quote:

GS- Jeez you really dont know much about real big bores and muzzel brakes do you?

BAD ROB! BE CIVIL.

Almost true, but, most of the time I can spell it...

It's kind of sad, but yes, I do know a bit about them. Like for instance you could pretty much have zero recoil, along with a very quiet gun, not requiring hearing protection, if not for our archaic Federal laws about silencers.

And to answer your question: Most of the guys I shoot with, or call friends, won't allow other friends to have muzzle brakes. However,
a certain 9 lb. .600 OK I have a deposit on has made some of them rethink that position.

By the way, could you PM me a price for a 12GFH and .600 OK case? I'll send you a check, and my address.

I'm actually trying to figure out if I'm in way over my head, or if I should just stay with the 'little' .510 Wells. pr .475 Ackley, I was thinking of building. I'm also kind of wondering what a 12GFH would require in a gun, for a double, without breaking the gun.

I'm kind of like the kid this was originally brought up for: I want something that will do the job, with reasonable recoil, and, that I can afford to shoot.

Come on Rob, you can cut the When we get old, we can't see real well, and, shooting long range isn't any fun, cause you can't see the darn holes in the target. It's way more fun to use open sites, swing the rifle up, and shoot something close that explodes:

I really liked this no scope, .510 Van Horn, 600 grains, @ 2150 fps, but, I'm not shooting without the PAST pad on, again.
Recoil was about 100 ft-lbs, IIRC. There was a noticeable jump from the 458 Lott I shot before it, with 500 grain, 2300 fps loads, around 80 ft-lbs.
If you wanted to build a 12 GFH double, what shotgun would you start with?

OK: Back to math. Now it starts to make sense. 1000 grain bullet @ 2150 fps, sort of the litmus test for velocity for ever with big rifles, 12 pound gun:
Recoil Energy of 222 foot pounds, and Recoil Velocity of 35 fps.
If the brake is as good as you say it is, that's right around the same as the .510 Van Horn, which I can shoot.

I trust Tom, since I've shot some of his guns, and, we are on the same page(pistols and that cute little lever action .500JRH with about a 16" barrel)

gumboot,

There are a lot of people posting on this forum that need to hunt anything let alone bears! Most of the posts here are utter BS!! I am particularly fond of the head shots are real easy stuff, particularly when they are referring to a dangerous game animal charging them!

If I read this comic correctly someone is talking about using "buck shot" in a rifle! That works REAL well, HAHAHHAHA!!

............
. Ya know ... for someone with the bucks , who wanted to build a rifle for this Coastal Clambering around in the timber with bears ........I would take a 500/416 Kreigoff or perhaps the Blaser ,have it re regulated for a 330 GS HV or 350 gr TSX @ 2500 fps .. And have it Cerra Koted inside and out . And have a fiberglass stock set made for it .....If the gun is fitted to you it would be pretty hard to beat ....
.
. Also for those of us with a little less ready cash ... A can of Corrosion Block will keep steel from rusting ,coroding and getting electrolisis / pitting on stainless steel ......Nothing I have tried works as well for not being sticky and gooy ...and it gets in better than grease and doesn,t collect stuff like grease does .......Put a set of those fancy Recknagle glowing sights on it and you would be good to go ....

GS- Yes your right that was unnecessarily nasty, but honestly a muzzel brake and the low peak pressure curve are exactly what makes the 12GAFH AND .600Ok shootable. We have been saying this for years on the 12GaFH thread. Magnaporting works and I'm going to do that to my Double Rifle soon. Without a brake, yes your talking about a whole lot of unnecessary recoil. With a good brake no issues at all. If your shooting a High pressure cartridge like a **^^% WBY yup some brakes make the gun louder( as if thats a bad thing). Thats not true of the 12GaFH. The brake just decreases recoil to a very tolerable limit. BTW I dont shoot with people who dont like brakes. I'm discriminating that way!
As to eyesight, sorry but I'm still 20-20 both eyes with correction and I still shoot open sights very well and often. I like to shoot close, cause thats where the adrenaline is! Watching stuff blow up is a bonus.-Rob

Is there a new cartridge called .458 Ruger that is Now available yet?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Just to stay in the "ballgame," I could go with three different pieces:

1. A 10-pound stainless/synthetic 500 Nitro Express double rifle with droplocks or sidelocks that I could clean and lubricate daily.
Graphite or something good in the cold.

2. Rob's 12gaFH double, but only if I could get it in stainless/synthetic and the weight could be kept down to
11 pounds, with barrels as short and light as necessary for that, droplock or sidelock. It would be fired with full power loads in emergency situations only.
The 12GaFH is bigger than a 700 NE, it is far more than a 600 NE.

3. Since I can't afford either of the above, I would have to go with something like this one, in either .375, .416, or .458 Ruger.
In the 20" stainless .375 Ruger Hawkeye with the canoe paddle stock shown, it weighs 7.25 pounds dry.
With a lighter stock, 1 pound instead of 1.5 pound, and the same contour barrel with .458 Rifling (definitely do-able),
it would weigh somewhere around 6.5 pounds dry.
Very handy and more versatile than either of the more expensive options.
I will just have to trust to skill AND luck:





I really can't make up my mind.

Tom's got a point. Standard length action, .458=Winmag.

They'll just neck up the .375 Ruger to .458, and, since it doesn't have a belt, put their name on it. So, do we call that a "Reverse Freedom Arms"
Tom?

Rob: many questions as I ask, you may think I don't respect your work, but I really do. I think you've taken the logic behind the old Nitro Express and taken it to near total absurdity, but, I love you for it. It's the American way.

I'm serious about wanting to look at that 12 GaFH. If you've got one extra, I'll be happy to pay for it. Also, do you have pictures of the double 12 GafH you have?
Like to see what you started with, and, you think Magna Porting will work on the beast?

What's been your experience, recoil wise, on converting shotguns to your cartridges? Jacks done a couple, and, the idea looks and works great. The recoil is straight back and hard, even considering it's .450 Nitro Express 2...

If you cant wait,only have a few bucks to spend,then this could be your Alaskan DG Rifle in 416 Ruger.....Check out the video with this link,some great close up elephant charges and buff shots! http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...11/16/new-416-ruger/

PS.Yes,to certify that I am kinda crazy,I also own a Remington 700 Titanium Custom with 18" Shilen SS barrel,Kevlar Stock,etc that weighs a mere 4 pds,3 ounces (unscoped) !It would also make a good Alaskan Rifle,which is why I had it made!

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:
If you cant wait,only have a few bucks to spend,then this could be your Alaskan DG Rifle in 416 Ruger.....Check out the video with this link,some great close up elephant charges and buff shots! http://www.thefirearmblog.com/...11/16/new-416-ruger/

PS.Yes,to certify that I am kinda crazy,I also own a Remington 700 Titanium Custom with 18" Shilen SS barrel,Kevlar Stock,etc that weighs a mere 4 pds,3 ounces (unscoped) !It would also make a good Alaskan Rifle,which is why I had it made!

If you look around youtube.com, those quick shots are from other peoples videos, mostly people like Mark Sullivan, and one game guy from that place in Africa where the river ends into a plain? Jack went fishing there. Botswana.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m23rM2WYl8
Okavongo Delta.

Tom also had this made for a bear, or maybe pig gun: Chambered in .500JRH 440 grain bullet at 1350 fps would probably go 4-6 feet of bear:



And, here is the first .500 Nitro Express Howdah, done by JRH Advanced gunmsithing. Needs a muzzle brake, seriously:

. I spose it's time to troll out an old pic Sometimes this is how you access where you are going in Southeast . Obviously the clear cuts in the background don,t need a cruiser but in 50 years they will be ready for Commercial thinning .@ 20 years Pre Commercial thinning would make for slightly fatter trees ........ ..A target of opportunity ,taken with a 416 Rem Mag.

GS Yes,that is a neat lil Lever and I had Jack make me & several lil 500 Hanguns to match it,both single and double actions...Good Backup when we humans get "treed"!....Thanks for posting!...Its light at 6.5 pds,short with a 16" barrel(34"oal!),weatherproof of SS and Laminate,plus it holds ALOT of ammo for that charging Grizz and last,puts a 50 cal hole in the critter!

Sorry about the size , thot I had resized all my pics .PhotoBucket is being too slow to fix the problem right now .....

Tom:
Your welcome. And thanks for letting me chronograph it

quote:

Originally posted by SAFARIKID:
Is there a new cartridge called .458 Ruger that is Now available yet?

5 Rugers: .375, .395, .416, .423, .458



SAFARIKID,
.458 Ruger:
Only in my mind so far.
I called it the ".458 Ruger-Palin" last time I trotted it out.
It has a better/bigger shoulder than the 400 Whelen and 10.75x68mm Mauser. It is do-able.


I am about wildcatted out, but might do it as a last hurrah,
and a .395/404 Jeffery, just to one-up Saeed.

Of course chamber and brass specs on the ".395/404 Jeffery USA Express" are top secret, just like Saeed's ".375/404 Jeffery UAE Express." Turnabout is fair play.

gumboot458,
Good weather beater stocks.
You can row your boat with them too if you stall.
Nice pics.
I have spent some time chasing bears on Hinchinbrook Island, Kodiak and some top secret places in Prince William Sound.
I saw some clearcuts around Cordova.
The boat pic reminds me of the trip from Cordova to Hinchinbrook in a little Boston Whaler.
That is as far "southeast" as I got.

BTW, is that a coyote?
Nice varmint rig too.
Your Ruger is a better boat gun.

5 Rugers: .375, .395, .416, .423, .458



Fine Art ... the .395 is still the most elegant ...

Gumboot, I would like to visit your stomping grounds sometime, but my nerves would get the best of me if I had to live there full time under those conditions. I would like plenty of guys to carry Chapuis 9.3X74R's up there long enough to knock the pretty plumb the hell off of them. I would like to have a good stock of used ones to pick over as I don't want to give 5K.

When considering hunting or protection rifles,
Alaska and Africa are Worlds appart IMHO.

Different animals and different weather.

Their choices do not even belong in the same thread IMHO.

And I say this after spending some time in both places.

Also in regards to stopping a charge.

I recommend you watch ALL of Mark Sullivans African videos.

Even If you disagree with his hunting style, he has PERFECTED the technique for stopping a charge.

Luckily, I had seen all of his videos, and had practiced his technique, when ON THE DAY, I was charged by a very dangerous animal from 12 yards.

When it happens, it happens FAST, you have no time to think, if you do not have a plan, and have practiced the plan, you probably will be killed. I had no PH to bail me out.

A Bolt 458 Win Mag Bolt Rifle saved my life, but I sure wished I had my 450 No2 Double Rifle.

A single shot would have been just as good as the Bolt, but the double rifle would have given me a better chance for survival if my first shot had not done the deed.

I distinctly remember thinking that as the animal started toward me.

In ALL the hunting I have done I have never found the double rifle to be a handicap....

And many times it has been a very good comfort.

Choose what you want.... but you may live or die by your choice.

HMMMM.
450: two thoughts. Doubles are REAL expensive.
If the rifle was a 600 OK, would you really need a second shot?

That said: doubles are the best defense setup you can get, short of a semi auto, or full auto rifle...
Just FEED the darn bears and they are fine. There is some nut that has them in the house for dinner, and so far, he's old, and still alive. This thread isn't about the probability of a bear attack, which is way less likely then a lightning strike, it's about our worse nightmare, getting eaten alive, by a bear, like Treadwell.

450#2- I'm with you. I have a plan.It may not be perfect but I'll stake my life on it. Used it on human predators once. Worked. may not be DG but concept is the same. I always use a second or third shot maybe a 15th if time permits. You just cant have enough lead in the air when things go real bad.-Rob

GS

You are correct. Doubles are just too expensive to be considered for a main stream protection gun for Alaska.

A 600 OK might be too heavy, with too much recoil for a protection gun.

Baised on what I know/have done, my minimum for an Alaskan protection rifle would be a reliable bolt or lever starting with a 9,3x62, 45/70, up to a 458 Bolt rifle.

I love the double, and have hunted with one a LOT, including quite a bit in Alaska...

But of the rifles I have now, I would use my Blaser R 93 in 375 H&H, with the 19 3/4" Tracker barrel as my protection rifle.

It is light short, handy and powerful enough to protect me.

I would prefer a rifle in case of a bear attack, but if I have my 44 Mag S&W, bears do not scare me in the slightest.

And I have been very close to bears, that I did not want to shoot, but because I was adequately armed IMHO, I was not scared.

While I RESPECT gangerous animals, only two things scare me.... Women and the Police...

Now there was one Gorilla, that made me a little nervous...

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
450#2- I'm with you. I have a plan.It may not be perfect but I'll stake my life on it. Used it on human predators once. Worked. may not be DG but concept is the same. I always use a second or third shot maybe a 15th if time permits. You just cant have enough lead in the air when things go real bad.-Rob

Rob

You are Correct.

A good plan is great.

Even a not so good plan, is better than NO plan.

Gs- Buy a cheap NEF and send the barrel to me. I'll rechamber it to 12 Gafh and send it back within a week. Cases and rims are available and I'll have you going in no time. then you decide if it isnt good enough for Bears. I think you'll be impressed. Everyone else has been. Its very shootable and packs a huge WALLOP FOR A $250 GUN. Most bang for the Buck in existance! Try the ball bearing load youll become a believer quickly! I may be old but I'm not Full of ShiT yet!-Rob

.. RIP; Yes thats a coyote ....It's skin could not contain a 350 gr Speer .416 bullet @ 2450 fps striking velocity .................
I really kick myself for not having a boat here in the Interior ... There are more rivers in the Copper River Valley than I can believe .......I miss the Southeast alot in the summer ...... I really miss Alaska from 25 years ago !!!!!!!! Big time .... But there are alot more bears now then there were then , so anyone who wants to kill a bear , Now is a great time to get up here. Before the Dems ,make it illeagle and a seat on a plane costs 2 ,000 bucks ect.and they steal the rest of a guys retirement .............
.
. I don,t know about having a plan . There are so many variable situations and stuff going on ........ But in an area with bears in it you have to be armed with enough rifle and enough brains to realize when a situation starts that it is a real threat ,, And to know when you need to shoot well.............
. Now this one is probably going to get some direserion but ...
.
. You also ought to have enough confidence in your ability and your rifle to train some bears .......... Why wait for a bear to charge you .... Go ahead and charge them .. Having a great dog helps .... But if properly armed you can run brown bear on foot .. I,ve done it several times and every time it worked , And I aint nothin special .......Most of the problems I and most everyone else has with bears is because some idiot or scardy cat trained that bear to NOT fear people ... .. I like to put the dread of man back into them punks in fur coats ........ Most of the under 40 cal guys bow out REAL QUIK when you ask them if they want to chase a bear on foot ..Even MOST BEAR GUIDES ....... I wish there was a gremlin of a chicken !!!!! .... If you buffalo them a couple times , they will flee for their lives when they even think you are in the area .. And they will leave your stuff alone also ..........................
..
. I better close now ,, I start getting excited , and sure enough some one will want to call me a liar and I,ll have to invite them to where I,ve lived and we,ll see if he,s got any BALLS

gumboot458,
Great idea about PROPERLY training bears.

A lot of bear training goes on in Alaska, but it is mostly the wrong kind.
Like the training of Kodiak bears to come to the "dinner bell" of a rifle report,
to find a gut pile or the entire deer carcass,
maybe even a tasty human bent over the deer carcass, for dessert.

I have trained a couple of Kodiak bears.

One 8-footer had his nose pressed against my tent. Stupid cub!
Trained him with the muzzleblast of a 340 Weatherby on his nose.

The other was "King Kong of Jap Bay."

I charged him from 2 miles away, with 375 Weatherby Mauser.
He got wind of me and might have seen the blur of my high-steppin' charge, incoming from 300 yards away.
He hightailed it to the salute of the .375 Weatherby.

King Kong had been lying on the hillside 50 yards above a deerhunters' camp, sniffing the bacon being fried.
They were bowhunters and had only a single 300WinMag between them. Gay?

The two bowyers were oblivious of the bear until my buddy and I showed up to tell them,
that the bear had been spying on them from above on the hill, like a sleeping dog with his head on his paws.

There is only one problem with properly training bears.
If you have to kill one after you charged it, you better have your permits in order ...

Properly trained bears may fit right in with humans:

http://community.adn.com/adn/node/116102
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSOKW6V6Bi8
Charlie Vandergaw

Ya apparently a woman who was visiting him got mauled pretty bad .. He was in court this year , saying he was wrong in feeding the bears ................................................. Bears are bears .... If you took a new born cub , moved it to New York City , raised it with a golden retreiver litter of pups , .. Gelded it when it was a tiny cub .. It might be domesticable .......... Other wise there is just a time problem .... ..
. the time problem is when will it decide it,s time to have you for lunch .......

Doug Seus has done real well, and, so far, he's only been torn up a whole bunch. Bears like to play, problem is, that can be fatal, if your human.
I'm amazed Mr. Vandergaw is still alive. He did mention of of the sows knocked him out, but, since they are well fed, at least it didn't eat him...
Much as we may think Timothy Treadwell made some serious bad decisions, he did get one of the best heavyweight sparring matches of all time on film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxYWnNoiZ-M

Neither bear seems hurt, but, we don't have all that fur and fat to protect us, or, for that matter, one of those shots would knock any human out...

It wa sa good vid till he got his mug on the screen ........................................
It,s kind of gross , a kalifornia hippy mixed with brown bears ,,,,
.
. It's like needing to wipe s--t off my hands ......
I,ve heard 50 or so of those fights , and have been around mounds that had what was left of the looser in them .............................. Meet a looser , or winner up close in the brush right after one of those fights ... Not so good ..

quote:

They were bowhunters and had only a single 300WinMag between them. Gay?

If you go to Kodiak with 1/2 guns per person, you are obviously not there for the hunting!

Bob

Bob,
The two "guys" claimed to be construction workers, who took a month off together each year to bowhunt deer on Kodiak.
Real cozy camp.
Big wall tent.
Planning to stay for a month.
They were sitting around the campfire when they should have been hunting.
There was something creepy about their demeanor, something queer.

They acted like we had intruded on their privacy.
Didn't seem a bit impressed that we had "trained away" a huge bear, 12-footer at least, that had been sniffing them from 50 yards away.
I think the bear thought something was "fishy" about them also.

Who would have thought Broke Back Mountain was on Kodiak?
Not me.
Was it a "Treadwell Deathwish" thing?
Shocking.