quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
As soon as I read the post, I knew either you or Mike Jines had gone to the trouble to look up the records before hand.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
As soon as I read the post, I knew either you or Mike Jines had gone to the trouble to look up the records before hand.

Wasting time to research you, you make me laugh. Like I said your own posts provide enough information for someone with any modicum of intelligence to easily put the pieces together.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Teaching trade skills and being an upstanding member of society are very different from teaching religion in a public schools.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth. NO ONE talking about teaching religion. Praying is NOT teaching religion and we are not talking about compelled prayer just exhibition by school elders.

What I am speaking is exactly the same as I mentioned and goes hand-in-hand.

We all have things in our Government that we do not agree with and do not have a right to be free of, thankfully religion is not one of them.

The Constitution does not mandate freedom from religion and hopefully the current SCOTUS will get that set straight.

Your religious views are fine in your church and your home, you have no right whatsoever to impose them upon others with different views.

Praying openly in public is not an imposition on anyone. I can write a chapter on things I hate that the government does and has the legal right to impose on me.

That is why I love America.

Then you would not have loved America as the Founding Fathers first ran it.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Teaching trade skills and being an upstanding member of society are very different from teaching religion in a public schools.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth. NO ONE talking about teaching religion. Praying is NOT teaching religion and we are not talking about compelled prayer just exhibition by school elders.

What I am speaking is exactly the same as I mentioned and goes hand-in-hand.

We all have things in our Government that we do not agree with and do not have a right to be free of, thankfully religion is not one of them.

The Constitution does not mandate freedom from religion and hopefully the current SCOTUS will get that set straight.

Your religious views are fine in your church and your home, you have no right whatsoever to impose them upon others with different views.

Praying openly in public is not an imposition on anyone. I can write a chapter on things I hate that the government does and has the legal right to impose on me.

That is why I love America.

Then you would not have loved America as the Founding Fathers first ran it.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
If I moved to Iraq, and they prayed to allah in school every day, I would bow my head and keep my mouth shut, because I am in their land. If I didn't like it, I could always leave. There is no expectation that their society has to change for me. Plainly, that is not the liberal view. Regards, Bill.

The fallacy in that argument is that the US is not a Christian nation.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Teaching trade skills and being an upstanding member of society are very different from teaching religion in a public schools.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth. NO ONE talking about teaching religion. Praying is NOT teaching religion and we are not talking about compelled prayer just exhibition by school elders.

What I am speaking is exactly the same as I mentioned and goes hand-in-hand.

We all have things in our Government that we do not agree with and do not have a right to be free of, thankfully religion is not one of them.

The Constitution does not mandate freedom from religion and hopefully the current SCOTUS will get that set straight.

Your religious views are fine in your church and your home, you have no right whatsoever to impose them upon others with different views.

Praying openly in public is not an imposition on anyone. I can write a chapter on things I hate that the government does and has the legal right to impose on me.

That is why I love America.

Then you would not have loved America as the Founding Fathers first ran it.

Nobody should have to listen to someone else's prayers being read aloud in a public school.

Send you kid to parochial school if that is your desire.

Having prayer read to you in a public school is most certainly teaching religion.

Not true.

If you are not teaching it, what is the point of reading it aloud?

Apparently you know little about prayer. And FYI, prayer is usually ad lib…not read.

There would be no other reason to read it aloud other than teaching.

Wow…I didn’t know someone could be that^^^ignorant.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
If I moved to Iraq, and they prayed to allah in school every day, I would bow my head and keep my mouth shut, because I am in their land. If I didn't like it, I could always leave. There is no expectation that their society has to change for me. Plainly, that is not the liberal view. Regards, Bill.

The fallacy in that argument is that the US is not a Christian nation.

Doesn't matter. The point is, if the majority of people in a given locale do things a certain way, there is no requirement, morally speaking, to change to accommodate a minority. On the other hand, if the minority doesn't like the way things are done, they can choose to bitch about it or live with it, if it does them no harm.
When I went to school in Idaho, we recited the Lord's prayer and the pledge of allegiance. When I attended school in British Columbia, we recited the Lord's prayer and sang "God Save the Queen". I suffered no long term effects from either practice, so I don't care. Anything which promotes a sense of community is of some value. The abandonment of established values is not always a good thing (this is not to say there are not values which should be abandoned!)
You say the US is not a Christian nation, yet it used to be. The nation, and it's people have been forced to change by the vocal minority.
Before I go any further, I have to make clear, I am not necessarily in favor of mandatory prayer at schools. For myself, I have roughly the same amount of religious conviction as the average housecat. I just feel that it was wrong to eliminate what was an established tradition, just to satisfy the wants of those who disagreed. How is the mandating of prayer in a school any different, from the infringement of freedom standpoint, than outlawing the same practice? In both cases, the state is dictating what behaviour is to be considered acceptable.
We, in both the United States and Canada, are doing all we can to discard our heritage and abandon our history, in favour of non-denominational homogeny, and I think it is a mistake.
In a very real sense, it is as justifiable for me to spurn the notion that there is more than one gender and to ridicule those who choose to believe otherwise as it for me to spurn the notion that God is real and ridicule those who choose to believe otherwise. The other option is to live and let live, as long as no harm is done. So, if the majority wish to recite the Lord's prayer, I can stand silent and let them do so. If Johnny wants to be Mary, I can let him do so. If Johnny wants to pretend to be Mary so he can access the girls restroom, I have the right to draw the line.
If the group decides that standing silent is not enough, prayer is mandatory, and punishment should ensue, I have the right to draw the line. Tyranny operates both ways. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
If I moved to Iraq, and they prayed to allah in school every day, I would bow my head and keep my mouth shut, because I am in their land. If I didn't like it, I could always leave. There is no expectation that their society has to change for me. Plainly, that is not the liberal view. Regards, Bill.

The fallacy in that argument is that the US is not a Christian nation.

Doesn't matter. The point is, if the majority of people in a given locale do things a certain way, there is no requirement, morally speaking, to change to accommodate a minority. On the other hand, if the minority doesn't like the way things are done, they can choose to bitch about it or live with it, if it does them no harm.
When I went to school in Idaho, we recited the Lord's prayer and the pledge of allegiance. When I attended school in British Columbia, we recited the Lord's prayer and sang "God Save the Queen". I suffered no long term effects from either practice, so I don't care. Anything which promotes a sense of community is of some value. The abandonment of established values is not always a good thing (this is not to say there are not values which should be abandoned!)
You say the US is not a Christian nation, yet it used to be. The nation, and it's people have been forced to change by the vocal minority.
Before I go any further, I have to make clear, I am not necessarily in favor of mandatory prayer at schools. For myself, I have roughly the same amount of religious conviction as the average housecat. I just feel that it was wrong to eliminate what was an established tradition, just to satisfy the wants of those who disagreed. How is the mandating of prayer in a school any different, from the infringement of freedom standpoint, than outlawing the same practice? In both cases, the state is dictating what behaviour is to be considered acceptable.
We, in both the United States and Canada, are doing all we can to discard our heritage and abandon our history, in favour of non-denominational homogeny, and I think it is a mistake.
In a very real sense, it is as justifiable for me to spurn the notion that there is more than one gender and to ridicule those who choose to believe otherwise as it for me to spurn the notion that God is real and ridicule those who choose to believe otherwise. The other option is to live and let live, as long as no harm is done. So, if the majority wish to recite the Lord's prayer, I can stand silent and let them do so. If Johnny wants to be Mary, I can let him do so. If Johnny wants to pretend to be Mary so he can access the girls restroom, I have the right to draw the line.
If the group decides that standing silent is not enough, prayer is mandatory, and punishment should ensue, I have the right to draw the line. Tyranny operates both ways. Regards, Bill

quote:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Teaching trade skills and being an upstanding member of society are very different from teaching religion in a public schools.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth. NO ONE talking about teaching religion. Praying is NOT teaching religion and we are not talking about compelled prayer just exhibition by school elders.

What I am speaking is exactly the same as I mentioned and goes hand-in-hand.

We all have things in our Government that we do not agree with and do not have a right to be free of, thankfully religion is not one of them.

The Constitution does not mandate freedom from religion and hopefully the current SCOTUS will get that set straight.

Your religious views are fine in your church and your home, you have no right whatsoever to impose them upon others with different views.

Praying openly in public is not an imposition on anyone. I can write a chapter on things I hate that the government does and has the legal right to impose on me.

That is why I love America.

Then you would not have loved America as the Founding Fathers first ran it.

Nobody should have to listen to someone else's prayers being read aloud in a public school.

Send you kid to parochial school if that is your desire.

Having prayer read to you in a public school is most certainly teaching religion.

Not true.



If you are not teaching it, what is the point of reading it aloud?

Apparently you know little about prayer. And FYI, prayer is usually ad lib…not read.

There would be no other reason to read it aloud other than teaching.

Wow…I didn’t know someone could be that^^^ignorant.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Teaching trade skills and being an upstanding member of society are very different from teaching religion in a public schools.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth. NO ONE talking about teaching religion. Praying is NOT teaching religion and we are not talking about compelled prayer just exhibition by school elders.

What I am speaking is exactly the same as I mentioned and goes hand-in-hand.

We all have things in our Government that we do not agree with and do not have a right to be free of, thankfully religion is not one of them.

The Constitution does not mandate freedom from religion and hopefully the current SCOTUS will get that set straight.

Your religious views are fine in your church and your home, you have no right whatsoever to impose them upon others with different views.

Praying openly in public is not an imposition on anyone. I can write a chapter on things I hate that the government does and has the legal right to impose on me.

That is why I love America.

Then you would not have loved America as the Founding Fathers first ran it.

Nobody should have to listen to someone else's prayers being read aloud in a public school.

Send you kid to parochial school if that is your desire.

Having prayer read to you in a public school is most certainly teaching religion.

Not true.



If you are not teaching it, what is the point of reading it aloud?

Apparently you know little about prayer. And FYI, prayer is usually ad lib…not read.

There would be no other reason to read it aloud other than teaching.

Wow…I didn’t know someone could be that^^^ignorant.

Such utter nonsense, in my time around Catholics I have heard many a prayer recited, very few were ad lib, certainly not among the Sicilians.

Utter nonsense is right. The vast majority of prayer is ad lib. Never seen a coach whip out a scripted prayer on the field to pray for his team.


Right back at ya on the ignorant insult.

My point was, obviously from your comment, that you don’t even understand what prayer is about. You are arguing against something you don’t even understand. That is appalling.

My point remains though, you are trying to indoctrinate other people's children with your religious beliefs, that is wrong.

No sir…it is called being a positive roll model. No different than the shop teacher teaching the kids of deadbeat parents that they should work an earn living.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Teaching trade skills and being an upstanding member of society are very different from teaching religion in a public schools.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth. NO ONE talking about teaching religion. Praying is NOT teaching religion and we are not talking about compelled prayer just exhibition by school elders.

What I am speaking is exactly the same as I mentioned and goes hand-in-hand.
So, exhibition of a loving same-sex couple in positions of authority is certainly indoctrination and teaching deviancy but the priciple doesn't apply to religion?

We all have things in our Government that we do not agree with and do not have a right to be free of, thankfully religion is not one of them.

The Constitution does not mandate freedom from religion and hopefully the current SCOTUS will get that set straight.
How can I have freedom of religion if your religion is using temporary political power to force your sect into the public life over all others?

Your religious views are fine in your church and your home, you have no right whatsoever to impose them upon others with different views.

Praying openly in public is not an imposition on anyone. I can write a chapter on things I hate that the government does and has the legal right to impose on me.
So, you've been appointed to determine what is and isn't an imposition on others?

That is why I love America.

Then you would not have loved America as the Founding Fathers first ran it.

Nobody should have to listen to someone else's prayers being read aloud in a public school.

Send you kid to parochial school if that is your desire.

Having prayer read to you in a public school is most certainly teaching religion.

Not true.



If you are not teaching it, what is the point of reading it aloud?

Apparently you know little about prayer. And FYI, prayer is usually ad lib…not read.

There would be no other reason to read it aloud other than teaching.

Wow…I didn’t know someone could be that^^^ignorant.

Such utter nonsense, in my time around Catholics I have heard many a prayer recited, very few were ad lib, certainly not among the Sicilians.

Utter nonsense is right. The vast majority of prayer is ad lib. Never seen a coach whip out a scripted prayer on the field to pray for his team.


Right back at ya on the ignorant insult.

My point was, obviously from your comment, that you don’t even understand what prayer is about. You are arguing against something you don’t even understand. That is appalling.
It's asking one imaginary sky fairy to the exclusion of all other imaginary sky fairies to allow you to impose your brand of fairydom on everybody within reach.

My point remains though, you are trying to indoctrinate other people's children with your religious beliefs, that is wrong.

No sir…it is called being a positive roll model. No different than the shop teacher teaching the kids of deadbeat parents that they should work an earn living.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Teaching trade skills and being an upstanding member of society are very different from teaching religion in a public schools.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth. NO ONE talking about teaching religion. Praying is NOT teaching religion and we are not talking about compelled prayer just exhibition by school elders.

What I am speaking is exactly the same as I mentioned and goes hand-in-hand.

We all have things in our Government that we do not agree with and do not have a right to be free of, thankfully religion is not one of them.

The Constitution does not mandate freedom from religion and hopefully the current SCOTUS will get that set straight.

Your religious views are fine in your church and your home, you have no right whatsoever to impose them upon others with different views.

Praying openly in public is not an imposition on anyone. I can write a chapter on things I hate that the government does and has the legal right to impose on me.

That is why I love America.

Then you would not have loved America as the Founding Fathers first ran it.

Nobody should have to listen to someone else's prayers being read aloud in a public school.

Send you kid to parochial school if that is your desire.

Having prayer read to you in a public school is most certainly teaching religion.

Not true.



If you are not teaching it, what is the point of reading it aloud?

Apparently you know little about prayer. And FYI, prayer is usually ad lib…not read.

There would be no other reason to read it aloud other than teaching.

Wow…I didn’t know someone could be that^^^ignorant.

Such utter nonsense, in my time around Catholics I have heard many a prayer recited, very few were ad lib, certainly not among the Sicilians.

Utter nonsense is right. The vast majority of prayer is ad lib. Never seen a coach whip out a scripted prayer on the field to pray for his team.


Right back at ya on the ignorant insult.

My point was, obviously from your comment, that you don’t even understand what prayer is about. You are arguing against something you don’t even understand. That is appalling.

My point remains though, you are trying to indoctrinate other people's children with your religious beliefs, that is wrong.

No sir…it is called being a positive roll model. No different than the shop teacher teaching the kids of deadbeat parents that they should work an earn living.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Prayer is not teaching religion. Men praying for others health, safety, and success is one example of being a good role model and a good man.

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
There is no societal value in "giving the glory to God", and even if there were the Constitution forbids governmental power from being used to advance it.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
There is no societal value in "giving the glory to God", and even if there were the Constitution forbids governmental power from being used to advance it.

You must have missed that “secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity” part.

quote:

The modern English language term bless likely derives from the 1225 term blessen, which developed from the Old English blǣdsian (preserved in the Northumbrian dialect around 950 AD).[1] The term also appears in other forms, such as blēdsian (before 830), blētsian from around 725 and blesian from around 1000, all meaning to make sacred or holy by a sacrificial custom in the Anglo-Saxon pagan period, originating in Germanic paganism; to mark with blood.[1] Due to this, the term is related to the term blōd, meaning 'blood'.[1] References to this indigenous practice, Blót, exist in related Icelandic sources.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
In the context of the Constitution, it means existing in God’s favor.
Just as “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” directly implies that, yes, religion is the backbone of our country’s formation and preservation.

I suppose that you would happily forgo these God given rights as you reject the existence of God entirely.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
In the context of the Constitution, it means existing in God’s favor.
Just as “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” directly implies that, yes, religion is the backbone of our country’s formation and preservation.

I suppose that you would happily forgo these God given rights as you reject the existence of God entirely.

I have never rejected the existence of God entirely, merely stated that there is not a shred of evidence any such entity exists or ever did,

I’ll ask your forgiveness as your description of God as an “imaginary sky fairy” somehow led me to that conclusion.

and that if the Christian God existed as claimed the majority of self-proclaimed "Christians" would be perpetually gargling lava.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
In the context of the Constitution, it means existing in God’s favor.
Just as “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” directly implies that, yes, religion is the backbone of our country’s formation and preservation.

I suppose that you would happily forgo these God given rights as you reject the existence of God entirely.

I have never rejected the existence of God entirely, merely stated that there is not a shred of evidence any such entity exists or ever did,

I’ll ask your forgiveness as your description of God as an “imaginary sky fairy” somehow led me to that conclusion.

and that if the Christian God existed as claimed the majority of self-proclaimed "Christians" would be perpetually gargling lava.

I’m confident that in the afterlife many of them are

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

No, those are the appearances prescribed by the tenets of your particular religious sect which, if like most, largely serves as a cover for child-molesting clergy. There is no societal value in "giving the glory to God", and even if there were the Constitution forbids governmental power from being used to advance it.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Proving most of your position is purely bigotry.

While I know that some predators have used religion as a cloak for their behaviors, I really doubt you can prove even a substantial minority are child abusers... kind of like your side wants to go on about drag queens and transgendered folks and their place in the education system. The numbers are a minority...

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

No, those are the appearances prescribed by the tenets of your particular religious sect which, if like most, largely serves as a cover for child-molesting clergy. There is no societal value in "giving the glory to God", and even if there were the Constitution forbids governmental power from being used to advance it.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Proving most of your position is purely bigotry.

While I know that some predators have used religion as a cloak for their behaviors, I really doubt you can prove even a substantial minority are child abusers... kind of like your side wants to go on about drag queens and transgendered folks and their place in the education system. The numbers are a minority...

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

No, those are the appearances prescribed by the tenets of your particular religious sect which, if like most, largely serves as a cover for child-molesting clergy. There is no societal value in "giving the glory to God", and even if there were the Constitution forbids governmental power from being used to advance it.

quote:

In May, a document released by the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) revealed the case of more than 700 Baptist leaders—including pastors, teachers, ministers and volunteers—accused or found guilty of sexual abuse of children.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
And 700 is what percent?

The point being the vast majority are not child abusers.

No one is defending the ones that are.

quote:

The dioceses currently in the midst of bankruptcy proceedings are Albany, Buffalo, Camden, New Orleans, Norwich, Oakland, Ogdensburg, Rochester, Rockville Centre, San Juan (Puerto Rico), Santa Fe, and Syracuse.

The dioceses that have completed their bankruptcy proceedings are Agaña (Guam), Davenport, Duluth, Fairbanks, Gallup, Great Falls-Billings, Harrisburg, Helena, Milwaukee, New Ulm, Portland in Oregon, St. Paul and Minneapolis, Spokane, Stockton, Tucson, Wilmington, and Winona-Rochester.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

That is why we have the Church.

Church is not required to be a faithful servant of God…and…faithful servants of God do not leave their faith in church. That would be the antithesis of what Jesus teaches.

Not a bit of religion is required in a public school to demonstrate being an exemplary role model.

A person can be a positive role without exhibiting faith no doubt but revealing the kindness, humbleness and thoughtfulness it takes to pray openly…are definitely examples of being a strong positive role model.

That is the fallacy you are promoting.

No fallacy.

Some of the most upstanding people I know are atheists who demonstrate through their behavior that they are fine role models.

That^^^is a fallacy. And being able to believe that…makes us so far apart that further argument is futile.

I have also had plenty of first hand experience with "good Christians" who are completely amoral.

No doubt…striking the word good…me too

A good role model in no way needs to be linked to religion, especially in a public school.

As stated a person can be a good role model without revealing faith but praying is an example of being a good role model and certainly should not be prohibited in any sect of government…especially NOT schools.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

That is why we have the Church.

Church is not required to be a faithful servant of God…and…faithful servants of God do not leave their faith in church. That would be the antithesis of what Jesus teaches. Your faith can go with you anywhere, you do not need to indoctrinate others in a public school to be a solid Christian.

Not a bit of religion is required in a public school to demonstrate being an exemplary role model.

A person can be a positive role without exhibiting faith no doubt but revealing the kindness, humbleness and thoughtfulness it takes to pray openly…are definitely examples of being a strong positive role model.

That is the fallacy you are promoting.

No fallacy.

Some of the most upstanding people I know are atheists who demonstrate through their behavior that they are fine role models.

That^^^is a fallacy. And being able to believe that…makes us so far apart that further argument is futile. BULLSHIT!!!! It is someone's actions that determine if they are fit to be a role model, not an allegiance to YOUR God.

I have also had plenty of first hand experience with "good Christians" who are completely amoral.

No doubt…striking the word good…me too

A good role model in no way needs to be linked to religion, especially in a public school.

As stated a person can be a good role model without revealing faith but praying is an example of being a good role model and certainly should not be prohibited in any sect of government…especially NOT schools.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

That is why we have the Church.

Church is not required to be a faithful servant of God…and…faithful servants of God do not leave their faith in church. That would be the antithesis of what Jesus teaches. Your faith can go with you anywhere, you do not need to indoctrinate others in a public school to be a solid Christian.

Not a bit of religion is required in a public school to demonstrate being an exemplary role model.

A person can be a positive role without exhibiting faith no doubt but revealing the kindness, humbleness and thoughtfulness it takes to pray openly…are definitely examples of being a strong positive role model.

That is the fallacy you are promoting.

No fallacy.

Some of the most upstanding people I know are atheists who demonstrate through their behavior that they are fine role models.

That^^^is a fallacy. And being able to believe that…makes us so far apart that further argument is futile. BULLSHIT!!!! It is someone's actions that determine if they are a role model, not an allegiance to YOUR God.

I have also had plenty of first hand experience with "good Christians" who are completely amoral.

No doubt…striking the word good…me too

A good role model in no way needs to be linked to religion, especially in a public school.

As stated a person can be a good role model without revealing faith but praying is an example of being a good role model and certainly should not be prohibited in any sect of government…especially NOT schools.

Pray away, just not out loud in a public school.

Hopefully, that concept will go back to where it was before liberal courts of the ‘70s changed it. Certainly it is NOT mandated by the Constitution. For the first nearly 200 years…it never crossed anyone’s mind.

The Government is not there to promote your religious views.

School officials being people and expressing human kindness in the form of prayer is not the Government “promoting” anything. Let the government keep its dirty hands off our local schools…as any good Libertarian would think.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

That is why we have the Church.

Church is not required to be a faithful servant of God…and…faithful servants of God do not leave their faith in church. That would be the antithesis of what Jesus teaches. Your faith can go with you anywhere, you do not need to indoctrinate others in a public school to be a solid Christian.

Not a bit of religion is required in a public school to demonstrate being an exemplary role model.

A person can be a positive role without exhibiting faith no doubt but revealing the kindness, humbleness and thoughtfulness it takes to pray openly…are definitely examples of being a strong positive role model.

That is the fallacy you are promoting.

No fallacy.

Some of the most upstanding people I know are atheists who demonstrate through their behavior that they are fine role models.

That^^^is a fallacy. And being able to believe that…makes us so far apart that further argument is futile. BULLSHIT!!!! It is someone's actions that determine if they are a role model, not an allegiance to YOUR God.

I have also had plenty of first hand experience with "good Christians" who are completely amoral.

No doubt…striking the word good…me too

A good role model po way u ds to be linked to religion, especially in a public school.

As stated a person can be a good role model without revealing faith but praying is an example of being a good role model and certainly should not be prohibited in any sect of government…especially NOT schools.

Pray away, just not out loud in a public school.

Hopefully, that concept will go back to where it was before liberal courts of the ‘70s changed it. Certainly it is NOT mandated by the Constitution. For the first nearly 200 years…it never crossed anyone’s mind.

The Government is not there to promote your religious views.

School officials being people and expressing human kindness in the form of prayer is not the Government “promoting” anything. Let the government keep its dirty hands off our local schools…as any good Libertarian would think.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

That is why we have the Church.

Church is not required to be a faithful servant of God…and…faithful servants of God do not leave their faith in church. That would be the antithesis of what Jesus teaches. Your faith can go with you anywhere, you do not need to indoctrinate others in a public school to be a solid Christian.

Not a bit of religion is required in a public school to demonstrate being an exemplary role model.

A person can be a positive role without exhibiting faith no doubt but revealing the kindness, humbleness and thoughtfulness it takes to pray openly…are definitely examples of being a strong positive role model.

That is the fallacy you are promoting.

No fallacy.

Some of the most upstanding people I know are atheists who demonstrate through their behavior that they are fine role models.

That^^^is a fallacy. And being able to believe that…makes us so far apart that further argument is futile. BULLSHIT!!!! It is someone's actions that determine if they are a role model, not an allegiance to YOUR God.

I have also had plenty of first hand experience with "good Christians" who are completely amoral.

No doubt…striking the word good…me too

A good role model po way u ds to be linked to religion, especially in a public school.

As stated a person can be a good role model without revealing faith but praying is an example of being a good role model and certainly should not be prohibited in any sect of government…especially NOT schools.

Pray away, just not out loud in a public school.

Hopefully, that concept will go back to where it was before liberal courts of the ‘70s changed it. Certainly it is NOT mandated by the Constitution. For the first nearly 200 years…it never crossed anyone’s mind.

The Government is not there to promote your religious views.

School officials being people and expressing human kindness in the form of prayer is not the Government “promoting” anything. Let the government keep its dirty hands off our local schools…as any good Libertarian would think.

The public school system is part of our Government. You are no libertarian, not even close, you are a religious zealot who wants to use the Government to promote your religious ideals. It is simply disgusting.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Demonstrating it is for yourself.

There is no demonstration…in the truest of sense.

Young men seeing older successful men being humble in prayer, giving thanks, giving the glory to God, praying for others, in front of others with out shame is a good role model.

That is why we have the Church.

Church is not required to be a faithful servant of God…and…faithful servants of God do not leave their faith in church. That would be the antithesis of what Jesus teaches. Your faith can go with you anywhere, you do not need to indoctrinate others in a public school to be a solid Christian.

Not a bit of religion is required in a public school to demonstrate being an exemplary role model.

A person can be a positive role without exhibiting faith no doubt but revealing the kindness, humbleness and thoughtfulness it takes to pray openly…are definitely examples of being a strong positive role model.

That is the fallacy you are promoting.

No fallacy.

Some of the most upstanding people I know are atheists who demonstrate through their behavior that they are fine role models.

That^^^is a fallacy. And being able to believe that…makes us so far apart that further argument is futile. BULLSHIT!!!! It is someone's actions that determine if they are a role model, not an allegiance to YOUR God.

I have also had plenty of first hand experience with "good Christians" who are completely amoral.

No doubt…striking the word good…me too

A good role model po way u ds to be linked to religion, especially in a public school.

As stated a person can be a good role model without revealing faith but praying is an example of being a good role model and certainly should not be prohibited in any sect of government…especially NOT schools.

Pray away, just not out loud in a public school.

Hopefully, that concept will go back to where it was before liberal courts of the ‘70s changed it. Certainly it is NOT mandated by the Constitution. For the first nearly 200 years…it never crossed anyone’s mind.

The Government is not there to promote your religious views.

School officials being people and expressing human kindness in the form of prayer is not the Government “promoting” anything. Let the government keep its dirty hands off our local schools…as any good Libertarian would think. Now you sound like the Republican idiots who rail about "Keep the Government away from my Social Security!"

The public school system is part of our Government. You are no libertarian, not even close, you are a religious zealot who wants to use the Government to promote your religious ideals. It is simply disgusting.

Disgusting???

Certainly using the power of the Federal Government to control people at the local level is NOT in any way shape or form a libertarian concept…you cannot argue against that.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
The public school system is part of our Government. You are no libertarian, not even close, you are a religious zealot who wants to use the Government to promote your religious ideals. It is simply disgusting

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
The public school system is part of our Government. You are no libertarian, not even close, you are a religious zealot who wants to use the Government to promote your religious ideals. It is simply disgusting

Oh, to be sure, it's part of LOCAL administration, but the phrase "Our Government" has several implications, such as Collective and National, which don't apply in Texas.

Again, as in many thing, Not in Texas - Each and Every School district is independent - Some smaller, some larger, For Example: Conroe ISD (Independent School District) is about 90% funded by LOCAL taxes, not State, and does receive federal money for some programs. And it tends to reflect local values - I am certain that Gainesville ISD does the same, on local values, but I don't have direct evidence.

The ISDs must meet State standards and tests - and most tend to do a good job of doing so.

But, Steve, aren't you one to say it's none of YOUR business?

Who are YOU to judge if he's a libertarian or not? who appointed YOU gatekeeper?

"religious zealot" - again, Steve, I thought it was none ya business? You decrying him for doing actions COULD be read as you doing the exact mirrored thing, to "extremist" behaviors - BTW, if you think these calm and mild actions are the actions of a zealot, I can infer you've never actually been around ACTUAL zealots

Disgusting? hypocrisy to me is disgusting.