The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting Reasons why you say No to the 30-06Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
Big Stick: I have to say, who cares? Any of these rifles will take a deer. We even agree, that a 223 is probably better for deer then any of these cartridges. If you want to really go up from this class of cartridges, you really need to jump up to a 375. So, what are you going to say the 375 won't do that a 7008 will??? ROFL gs ------------------ | |||
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Le John: While I understand the attraction of the obscene language, try to keep your comments civil. gs ------------------ | |||
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| <Orion> |
Amen weidmansheil martin | ||
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| one of us |
"What will a 7-08 do,that a 375 won't? 1)Shoots flatter (get out the ballistic tables for HV bullets, and Speer 300 grain Boattails, and get back to me on this one. Course, the 7-08 hits with much more impact downrange;-) 2)Recoils less Does the 375 have any advantages over the 7-08???? Keep in mind, this rifle has a 25 inch barrel... gs ------------------ | |||
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| new member |
Johnnie! hahah, I guess, if you say I'm a S/F, then it must be so, I've been called worse. Glad you let me know, I'm relieved...whew, JR | |||
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Wow, scary to think that half the stuff I've been learning for the past coupla years is from a stupid f*cker....Sorry, JR, I can no longer be your 'grasshoppah'....lol.....I guess then, sign me up for the SMF club as well. Big Stick, what sort of dues are involved? Got any openings in your cabinet? (assuming you're the president of the club)...just had to throw this in here fellas  ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
I realize I wasn't the person asked to reply,Mr. Holmes was. However I can't help but notice that info has been laid out in the form of the 30/06 180gr/2800fps/22in barrel,versus a 7-08/175gr bullet,and since the only barrel length I've been able to find tested is either a 24 inch or 26 inch tube,the comparison isn't very fair,yet the 30/06 still beats it,with a shorter barrel. I'm sure we can go on forever and the only response that I'll get from you is the standard show me data garbage. The data has been shown and you simply don't like it,because the facts still support the 30/06 as a better performer. Your 600 yard comparison is worthless,so I'll spare everyone from hearing it again.
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| <Big Stick> |
Socrates, You speak of things you do not know. 1)You are guessing at things you've never seen or done. 3) I needn't look up a thread. I've had 5 seperate 375H&H's and two Custom built Rem 700 based 375H&H Ackley Improveds. The 375 while a very friendly and accurate cartridge,doesn't have the highest grade of projectiles available to it,to eek the highest levels of accuracy. Bullets make little groups,in the final analysis,if all else is even(and it isn't). Why not the 375-50BMG? Instead of the 375H&H?. Or the 375-50BMG Ackley Improved. Or the 50-20mm Pac-Nor Ackley Improved? Just curious,as to what you find infinitely superior,in regards to a cartridge I doubt you have ANY trigger time on?...........
Everyone has their calling,I guess mine is the SMF Ringleader............
I kill quite a few critters with a lowly XP-100 in 7-08. The barrel length was of zero concern to me. My hands were tied,because the printed data resources use a longer barrel length than most deem acceptable. That is out of my control. I have 7-08's from 14"-24". The 14" will make better than 2500fps with 140's,the 24's will meeet as a minimum or exceed data thus far mentioned. The 22" is less than 50fps slower. So I don't get too concerned with shit that really doesn't matter(50fps). My point is/was,now that you Gents have some numbers you feel cozy with,what can't the 7-08 do in comparison? That in regards to killing critters,beings long distance paper is noone's concern? I don't know what an "average magnum" is. The 280Ackley has an increase of performance over the 7-08,but it isn't a "magnum"(in my opinion). The 7mmRemmag is certainly capable of more than your established 100-150fps,"typical magnum" increase,over the 7-08. Yes,even with a short 24" barreled 7mmRemmag(one of my favorites).120's at 3500fps and 140's at 3300fps,is standard fare,through my barrels,in that chambering. You quote the following: Now the 7-08 is a "magnum" that requires 26" of barrel length to effectively utilize a meager 45grs of propellant? I suppose in your infinite wisdom,the 30-06 which is of 30% more capacity,would REQUIRE a 33.8" barrel(30% increase in length,over a 26" baseline)?. There are simply cartridges that make amazingly effective use of their capacity. Those efficient numbers share one attribute. They are NOT as dependant upon barrel length,as larger cases are,in a direct comparison. A 22" barreled 7-08 will make 2800fps with a 140gr projectile. This stuff is very easy to grasp,when you own the rifles and have a PACT chronograph............ | ||
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| one of us |
Big Stick...not to trounce your 7'08 (i actually wish i had one) but I have to address something that has been bugging me thoughout this entire thread...bullet performance. I thought it would've been touched upon w/ the discussion of SD's and bullet selection, but alas, it wasn't. So, the .284's have a higher sectional density...that's fact, however my question is this...Why does that make it better? So, you can penetrate further w/ your 7'08 because of the better SD, however, what good does all that energy do after the bullet has penetrated the far side of the animal...it goes to waste. I have never had to worry about a 30'06 NOT penetrating an animal...happens everytime. I 'feel' with a gut instinct that the 30'06 outperforms the 7'08 in this venue...a heavier bullet driven at moderate velocities, lower SD, means it will slow down more in the animal, mushroom more easily, (yet remain intact...'moderate velocities', remember) thus, more of that magical energy everyone loves so much is transferred into the tissue, creating a larger wound channel. Isn't that what we're trying for? Like I said...what good does all that SD and Energy do once it's exited the animal?** **note, I am obviously referring to jacketed bullets in my theoretical comparison, not monolithics or solids. | |||
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| <john holmes> |
Big stick are you still spewing your bullshit. I couldn't help but notice the part about a 26 inch barrel. No it isn't neccesary in a 7-08,but it is if you hope to achieve the velocities you like to quote. If barrel length had nothing to do with velocity,all the reloading manuals would be using standard model 7's with 20 inch barrels. By the way big stick,you're still a stupid fucker  | ||
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| <Zeke> |
Gentlemen, and I use the term loosely. It is time for someone to speak up and call a spade a spade. In the last few weeks I have seen some of the most ridiculous, childish and just plain offensive threads and topics. The profanity is also a very nice touch. Does the person with the most colorful language win the arguement? Comparing the 7-08 to 30-06 is stupid! They are close enough together in performance that trying to nit-pick the few percentage points in BC is pointless. What's next 270WCF vs. 280 Remington? Better yet, if 7-08 is actually better that 30-06, why not argue whether the deer shot with a 7-08 is actually more dead than the one shot with a 30-06. These sort of "This vs. That" name calling contests do not belong in the Big Game Forum, or anywhere else in the on this site. We are all supposed to have a common interest in the shooting sports. The kind of garbage that is showing up on these forums needs to stop. Take your crap elsewhere Gentlemen. Later, Much Later | ||
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| <Don Krakenberger> |
Zeke--you said it all correctly--the thread starts out nice and then these guys have to make us all look bad!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
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| <Big Stick> |
444, Nowhere will you see,I said "better". My contention throughout,is that there are numerous cartridges of this performance level. In some printed data,the 7-08 "wins". In others,the '06 "wins". I rate them as very comparable,in raw performance. Others see it differently. I mentioned that data could be swayed either way,it was so close. SD isn't something I get giddy about. It is a mechanical factor,that is expressed numerically. It does not take into account,projectile construction or velocity. Those are variables that bear heavily upon penetration(SD the theoretical numerical expression of that capability). I like good bullets in everything. For that reason,I changed data submitted by others in comparison,for a superior .308" projectile(X bullet) to equate things more evenly,throughout the discussion. Energy values,are also a theoretical numerical evaluation process. I really don't get too concerned with that either. Again,because those values do not weigh projectile integrity. To clarify,you could use the 30-06 with 165's at whatever speed everybody likes. However,depending upon placement,the relative effectiveness of that load will be quite different,upon exact projectile choice,while still within that diameter and weight. Some would deem the 165gr Ballistic Tip as bottled lightning for Elk. Other's a GameKing. Myself,I KNOW what an X bullet will do,so I side with it,for most everything. What velocity retention(BC)does,is promote projectile expansion and tissue damage. An exit,gives another hole for blood to leak out. None of those things harmful,to the dealing out,of rapid death. I never said that the 7-08 will dig deeper than an '06(though depending upon projectiles in each,it certainly has that potential and vice versa). I said it will dig deep enough,hit hard enough,to readily swat stuff to the ground. Moreover,my point is,that this is minutia in the actual scheme off things. Both cartridges fire similar projectiles,at similar velocities. Poor bullets in either,will hinder performance. Optimal in each,will certainly help. I like to break shoulders,when given the opportunity. Due to that penchant,I shoot bullets that allow me that possibility. So my point is,if you are shooting like constructed bullets in each,their performance will mirror each other. Penetration,expansion,"energy" and exit wound size will be quite similar. Put either in anything that resembles a good spot and you are punching tags. Very easy,all of it...............
I was unaware of the Mafia vendetta,in regards to published 7-08 data. Certainly a conspiracy there! So you deem the 30-06 is a more efficient case and makes better use out of shortened tubes? Quite humorous to me,that 2 inches of barrel and 50 feet in initial velocity,has you ranting. Subtract 50fps from any data mentioned and you have 22" 7-08 data. If that was too technical,I'll happily slow down and elaborate for you...........
The facts you mention,is what I have related all along. The middleground the '06 occupies,has much company. That was the focal point. Now you will become a victim and fall within the membership of the SMF Club............... | ||
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| <Zeke> |
Big Stick, Fall victim to what, One has to care about a few fps or a few decimal points of BC or SD. Frankly I don't give a hoot about such small differences in performance. I don't care about which cartridge is better. I do care about a bunch of foul-mouthed, ill-tempered so-called "Sportsman" ruining what used to be a good place to hang out. I hope that is clear enough for you and your fellow combatants! ZM | ||
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WHOA WHOA WHOA Zeke, take it easy fella, while I certainly agree w/ your stance on the foul language, I think Big Stick was trying to be friendly/sarcastic there...take it w/ a grain of salt my friend... Big Stick, John Holmes.... ------------------ | |||
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| <Big Stick> |
Zeke, It seems that anyone that doesn't deem the 30-06 as the best of the best. Is the recipient of the blue streak cussing treatment. After the cussing out,they are members of the SMF Club. What's clear,is your quarrel isn't with me.......... 444, Actually,what I stated was in the comparisons offered. The .284" projectile had a slight SD advantage,generally had the BC advantage,some velocity advantage and an accuracy advantage. Those advantages,though not startling when weighed solo,lend to that cartridge's overall effectiveness when melded together. It is a nice design,that is well rounded and has many strengths,that would betray it's "size".................... | ||
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Stick, We're in agreement then...I think the 7'08 is a great round, like I said, never wanted to trounce it...It just got heated there for a while, and I wanted to touch on that subject of bullet performance to bring some things into perspective...after all, I believe that when one is comparing cartridges, (**theoretical**) bullet performance should be an issue that's discussed. <<My contention throughout,is that there are numerous cartridges of this performance level.>> You're right, the 7'08 isn't 'superior' nor is the 30'06...that's why we have our .338 Ultra mags ------------------ | |||
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| <GAHUNTER> |
I have two 30-06s -- one 20 years old and the other 38 years old. I have taken dozens of deer and a couple of black bears with these guns out to 300 yards. Neither gun has ever failed me as long as I did my part. That said, I hardly ever touch either one of these rifles any more. I now have two .270s for antelope and mule deer (each zeroed with different bullets); a .300 Win Mag for elk and moose; a .243 for hogs; a .35 Remington with open sights for still hunting on rainy in heavy brush; a .260 Remington for days I just want to use a light, accurate rifle; and, I recently ordered a custom .300 WSM simply because I want one! Now, have I ever taken any game with these other guns that I couldn't have taken with either one of my '06s? Probably not, with the exception being a couple of deer I've taken with the .35 with open sights after being jumped (folks in my hunting club call it my full-auto lever action). For years, I was a one caliber kind of guy, and it served me well. Now I prefer to hand load and for my guns to specialize. And besides, it keeps me off the streets! | ||
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| <re5513> |
quote: I own two .30-06 rifles, including my first ever centerfire rifle. The .30-06 is one of the most versatile cartridges of all time. In fact I have used mine to hunt and kill everthing from ground squirrels & prairie dogs to antelope, deer, and elk. That being said, my opinion of the '06 is that it is good for many applications but great at nothing. You said it best, jack of all trades, master of none. In my opinion that sum's up my experience with it. I find it a little too much for deer, a little too slow for antelope, a little to slow and light for elk. Sure, it'll work on all three but for the way I hunt, there are better caliber choices: Prairie dogs: Used the .30-06 w/ 110 gr. Sierra hollow points. Good accuracy but lacked precision for long shots. Now use 6BR, .22-250, and .22 Hornet. Antelope: 6BR, 6mm Remington, .25-06 preferred. Deer: Prefer the .308, .44 Mag pistol, .25-06 and 6mm Remington. Elk: Prefer the 300 Win Mag (Sendero configuration) and .375 H&H. I haven't hunted with my '06 in years and really haven't missed it. I might also argue that the "one gun" honor would go to the .375 H&H if I had to distill it all down to a single firearm. The .375 H&H has more recoil than an '06 but contrary to what many believe it is a flat shooting, game getting, meat preserving caliber. It's recoil is not very noticable in field shooting conditions. It tends to have negligible blood shock. It can be very accurate and usfull for most game species on the planet should tne need, desire, and opportunity arise. I've even shot a few antelope and prairie dogs with it. Both hunts were very enjoyable. In the end, buy what you really want. I have four sons and when they get to the point that they'll need their own rifle which will serve them for most of the animals they would like to shoot for their first years out of the house, it'll likely be a 300 Win Mag or 7mm Remington Magnum. For my hunting style in Colorado they just work better than the '06. re5513 | ||
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| one of us |
It's not worth arguing about, the 30.06 will still do what it has always done, kill efficiently all game in NA, with no muss and no fuss.........  | |||
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| <Big Stick> |
Just like most everything else.......... | ||
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| one of us |
"Prairie dogs: Used the .30-06 w/ 110 gr. Sierra hollow points. Good accuracy but lacked precision for long shots. Now use 6BR, .22-250, and .22 Hornet. Antelope: 6BR, 6mm Remington, .25-06 preferred. Deer: Prefer the .308, .44 Mag pistol, .25-06 and 6mm Remington. Elk: Prefer the 300 Win Mag (Sendero configuration) and .375 H&H. I haven't hunted with my '06 in years and really haven't missed it. I might also argue that the "one gun" honor would go to the .375 H&H if I had to distill it all down to a single firearm. The .375 H&H has more recoil than an '06 but contrary to what many believe it is a flat shooting, game getting, meat preserving caliber. It's recoil is not very noticable in field shooting conditions. It tends to have negligible blood shock. It can be very accurate and usfull for most game species on the planet should tne need, desire, and opportunity arise. I've even shot a few antelope and prairie dogs with it. Both hunts were very enjoyable. In the end, buy what you really want. I have four sons and when they get to the point that they'll need their own rifle which will serve them for most of the animals they would like to shoot for their first years out of the house, it'll likely be a 300 Win Mag or 7mm Remington Magnum. For my hunting style in Colorado they just work better than the '06. re5513 " Yes, I noticed that even with very high velocity, the 110's were not all that accurate. As I have stated before, for deer, why not 223? Supported by Big Stick, I think, prior. Elk, don't know, but it would seem a 375 H&H would do the job, but, since I've never fired one, I guess all that stuff other people write is invalid... gs ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
But a little better than everything else | |||
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| <BusPilot> |
I don't mean to be rude; I truly don't...but I was just wondering. Do you guys who post 10 times on each thread have jobs? I enjoy discussing this stuff as much as anyone, but I also have to go work and more importantly go handload and shoot! | ||
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one of us |
Bus Pilot. Oh Noooooo! you have resurected the 30-06 thread! I thought it died with the lase mud fling back in February, 2002! You should be ashamed of yourself! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
Serious gun cranks can find some reason to want something better. Hardcore hunters just keep on using the 30-06 and probably will as long as hunting exists. | |||
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| one of us |
WOW 9 pages of rant. I haven't seen such hair splitting, ado about nothing and arguement for arguement sake since I was in College. And that was 20 years ago. Guys get a life. the difference between the (7mm-08,7x57,270,280,308, etc,etc,) and the 30-06 is to small for the vast majority of us to exploit. We're not that good, and the game isn't that tough. They all work. Why shouldn't you get a 30-06 for all your NA hunting? Because you have an itch for another caliber. | |||
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| Moderator |
Tell me some thing i know you wouldnt try to kill a buff with a 30-06 but a 30-06 kills as good if not better then some others if you Prey goes down whats the diffrents in a Rifle besides the bullet? | |||
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| one of us |
I'm so relieved that we've settled all of these weighty issues. Good work men! To the PUB! ONWARD! | |||
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| one of us |
Like most of you have said, there really isn't a "good" reason not to use the '06. I guess my reason is that it was too "common". I like to use others, which honestly don't always have the level of performance that a 30-06 has. I just recently bought a Remington Mountain rifle in '06 and have it shooting .5" groups at 100 with 165 grain Nosler BT's. What more could I ask for? I still like to use "different" cartridges, but I don't object to the '06. Bob257 | |||
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| one of us |
Who cares about the '06! It's everywhere you want to be. It can be all you want to be. It's an army of one. They're looking for drivers. Where's the beef? It's an effin cartridge!!!! Get over it!!! Do you suppose that the reloading forums in england ask about the .303 brit with the same enthusiasm? Or Germany about the 8x57? How can you possibly spend so much time contemplating why not to use something that is so similar to everything around it? Give me any cartridge that DOESN'T perform between 2500 fps and 3100 fps. One....just one...I dare you!!!! Will it kill? You bet! Will it leave an animal wounded to die a slow agonizing death? You bet! That's what this string is doing. A slow agonizing death! Give it up. Stop now before your everlasting soul is commited to this hell! have a nice day | |||
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| <Gunnut45/454> |
stubblejumper My twist to your post: 1-A Short history does not make a caliber shoot any better or kill game deader. 2-being the most unpopular does not make a caliber shoot any better or kill game deader. 3-having a Smaller selection of guns available does not make a gun shoot any better or kill game deader. 4-a Smaller selection of factory loads does not make a caliber shoot any better or kill game any deader. 5-the fact that it will kill all game does not make it the best for any or all game. | ||
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| <Gunnut45/454> |
Jon A 30-06 200 gr bullet 2500 FPS Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time (yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs)(lbs-sec) (inches) 0 2506.0 2788.8 2.23 -1.5 0.0 0.0 0.000 50 2416.7 2593.7 2.15 1.2 0.2 10.7 0.061 100 2329.5 2409.8 2.07 2.5 0.8 21.9 0.124 150 2244.2 2236.6 1.99 2.1 1.8 33.4 0.190 200 2160.4 2072.6 1.92 -0.0 3.3 45.4 0.258 250 2078.2 1917.8 1.85 -4.0 5.2 57.8 0.329 300 1997.7 1772.3 1.77 -9.9 7.6 70.8 0.402 350 1919.3 1635.8 1.70 -18.1 10.6 84.3 0.479 400 1842.8 1508.1 1.64 -28.6 14.1 98.3 0.559 450 1768.6 1389.0 1.57 -41.7 18.2112.9 0.642 500 1696.5 1278.1 1.51 -57.5 22.9128.2 0.728 300 Win Mag 200 gr at 2900 FPS Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Windage Lead Time (yards) (ft/sec) (ft-lbs) (lbs-sec) (inches) 0 2906.6 3751.7 2.58 -1.5 0.0 0.0 0.000 50 2808.4 3502.5 2.49 0.6 0.2 9.2 0.053 100 2712.5 3267.2 2.41 1.6 0.6 18.8 0.107 150 2618.6 3045.0 2.33 1.4 1.5 28.7 0.163 200 2526.8 2835.3 2.24 -0.0 2.7 39.0 0.221 250 2437.1 2637.5 2.16 -2.8 4.2 49.6 0.282 300 2349.4 2451.1 2.09 -7.1 6.2 60.6 0.345 350 2263.7 2275.5 2.01 -12.9 8.5 72.1 0.410 400 2179.6 2109.6 1.94 -20.5 11.3 84.0 0.477 450 2096.9 1952.7 1.86 -29.8 14.6 96.3 0.547 500 2016.1 1805.0 1.79 -41.2 18.4 109.2 0.620 So where is the big atvantage? The 30-06 will kill anything out west just as dead and at the same ranges the 300 Win Mag will? Now that I've looked I was actually alittle low in both velocities 06 shold have been 2650fps and 300 should have been 3150 fps but it wouldn't change the stats that much. [ 01-09-2003, 00:57: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ] | ||
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One of Us |
I have briefly owned three .30-'06's: an A-bolt stainless stalker, a Model 70, and a 98 Mauser. The Browning became a .30 Gibbs, the Model 70 became a .224/6mm Rem, and the Mauser became a dandy .416 Taylor. I used the Gibbs extensively for deer, elk, and hogs for 13 years. It always performed most adequately. It is only a bit ahead of the '06 but I didn't load it hot. I haven't used an '06 in the field but have observed kills made by those who were carrying them. It is a classic cartridge that may not be new, sexy, or fast--but it will get the job done in workman-like fashion. The main reason I say a loud and resounding YES to the '06 is because it is the parent case for so many other cartridges, factory and especially wildcats. My current favorite looks like its gonna be a .338-'06 AI. Just starting making cases but the fireforming load looks like it is very accurate. Anyway, I digress! I'll just close by saying that the shooting world would be far poorer if the '06 had never been developed. ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Good Hunting, | |||
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| <Gunnut45/454> |
Big Stick "My sole question remains. In what situation will a 30-06 outperform other existing cartridges?...." The 06 will out perform all cartridges below 30 caliber non-magmuns Example-243 vs 30-06 better deer cartdge etc. Need more? | ||
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One of Us |
quote:Who is it that has more time on their hands, the guys who make this stuff or the guys that dig it up after its dead and gone? ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| new member |
Two words...Elmer Keith...with absolutely no appologies to Jack O'Conner fans. | |||
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One of Us |
Lord, now this ridiculous thread turns into an Elmer Keith tribute... who apparently never gave the 06' a fair trial with any decent bullet. Heck, with today's great bullets I'd take an 06' over the 333 OKH as Keith loaded it in his day. It's not a CARTRIDGE that kills but the bullet launched from it. That bullet doesn't care if a 308 or 300 Wby launched it. If that bullet is of superior construction it probably evens the differences between those extremes substantially. AND YES, airline pilots have more time on their hands than most of us! BA | |||
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one of us |
There is little difference between most of the medium calibers, guns like the 270 Win, 308, 300 Win, 8x57 and so on, I have shot with a lott of them and not one kills better than the other one. | |||
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