Yes the .257 weatherby is a classic round actually a real classic piece of shit,just like the majority of the weatherby cartridges that old roy pimped to the american public. As for it being heads above the 25/06,it isn't and it's nowhere near as good as the 284 based wildcats. The problem is weatherby has hyped their line of cartridges over the years,by showing pictures of saplings riped in half and steel plates with massive holes blown in them,that people have actually bought into the bullshit,even though it has nothing to do with intended purpose of the cartridge. As for the 7-08,its one of those cartridges that beyond its appeal to benchrest shooters,does absolutely nothing in the field that a 270 can't do and in most cases less then the .270,since the 7-08 is usually chambered in some 18 or 20 inch model 7. Thats why you seldom if ever find loading info that doesn't use a 24 or 26 inch barrel in the 7-08,without that extra barrel length performance goes to shit and with the extra barrel length,any advantage of faster handling goes out the window also.

[This message has been edited by john holmes (edited 02-12-2002).]

Is .535 a good ballistic coefficent
That's what GS lists their 265 grain HV at.

Max velocity, 2950 fps. I don't think it gets any better then that.

Seems to me, with their bullet quality, and that ballistic coefficent, you have one flat shooting 375 H&H.

So a 308, 220 grain matchking gives you a BC of .629 above 2100fps.

The 175 grain has a worse bc, above 2800 fps, at .505, then the 375, and, the 375 has caliber and weight going for it.

So, anyone care to work out the difference in ballistics between the three rounds?

Seems to me, the 375 H&H is getting ideal ballistics, at least for what I like, without overbore recoil, pressure, and component wear.

gs

Socrates-
You seem to really get into the numbers game on these type threads. I'm curious, do you base these preferences and theories on actual hunting experiences? Not trying to be critical, but rather curious about how much field experience you have?

john holmes,

You can be as mad at Roy Weatherby,as you wish.

I'm an unbiased average guy,that likes rifles. I've had the 257Roberts,257RobertsAI,25-284,25-06,25-06AI and 257Wby's. The 25-284's,25-06,25-06Ackley and 257Wby's are still in the stable.

The 25-284 will make 3400fps with a 100gr,the 25-06 a smidge less,the 25-06AI will crowd 3600fps,the 257Wby 3750fps. I like them all a great deal. But can't say they are equals. The potential between the 25-284 and 257Wby,is akin to the difference between the 308Win and 300WinMag(350fps). That difference can be discerned easily in trajectory and energy and of course wind drift. I consider myself the biggest 25-284 fan on the Planet,but can happily concede it is a lesser animal,when compared to the 257Wby.

You nailed the attributes of the 7-08. About time,as I grow tired of repeating the obvious. It will do whatever the 270 or 30-06 will do,with less powder and more accuracy. No reason to get mad about that,they build new 7-08's everyday. Simply purchase one and quit whining............

Socrates,

You tpuch on an important facet. The efffective utilization of case capacity,with a projectile weight that doesn't compromise and wearing the best BC possible. 2950fps is very optimistic(impossible)in a 375H&H with 265's.

The 375 is good both in theory and application. There are worse choices. But to think it is in the upper echelon of available trajectory performance vs. recoil,isn't accurate.

Your concept of that cartridge's abilities,are seriously askew................

John S,

He is a tire-kicker. That has been obvious from the start............

Big Stick,

In case you think I might lack experience with high velocity calibers this is most of what I have owned:

22/250 Sporting style
220 Swift 2 barrels for bench gun
243 Sporting and bench style
6mm Rem bench style
6mm/284 2 barrels for bench gun
6mm/06 several barrels
6mm/264 Sporting style
257 Wby Mark V
25/308 Norma Sporting rifle style
270 Win Bench and Sporting style. Many
270 Wby Mark V
270/308 Norma
7mm Rem 2 barrels bench style
308 sporting style and bench
30/06
300 Win Bench and sporting. Lots
300 Wby Mark Vs 3 of them
308 Norma Sporting style
338 Win sporting and bench style
340 Wby Mark V
358 STA bench and sporting 3 barrels
375 H&H bench and sporting Lots and lots
378 Wby 2 Mark Vs
416 Rem 1 Rem 700
458 Win 3 M70s
460 Wby 2 Mark Vs

No wonder there is no money over here

In addition to those I have direct involvement witha mates rifles. Bedding the, fitting his Jewell triggers.

They have been:

25/300 Win
257 Wby
264
6.5 STW
270/300 Win
7mm/300 Win
7mm STW
300 Win
300 Wby
300 Ultra
340 Wby
358 STA
378

Apart from the 378, all the others have been on Rem 700 Stainless with match barrels.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 02-12-2002).]

Mike,

I never once so much as hinted you weren't versed. I stated plainly that your tastes are different than mine.

I've a couple rifles in the closet myself and had many others pass between my hands or rebarreled(some numerous times).

That being said,I've a couple that I've grown fond of.

For general duty in heavy cover,I favor the 7-08/308.

For a lightweight high performance rifle,I very much love the 25-284. Great cartridge,that makes great speeds,in a convenient package.

For big country,the 257Wby is as good as I've seen. I much prefer it to the STW and got rid of them,due to it.

I've put a lot of miles on my 26" barreled 30-8mmRemmag. I can't cuss it.

The 338Ultra is incredible and is gaining favor quicker than anything else I have built,excepting the 257Wby. That would be my two rifle battery,a 257Wby and a 338Ultra. Both are amazing.

The 378Wby is my favorite 375. My troubles with it,is it isn't available in S/S for use here as a duty rifle. I'm sold on the 375Ultra,after witnessing the excellence of my 338Ultra. I hope to be able to assemble one to my liking,some time this year.

For vermin,I'm a 223Ackley and 243Ackley fanatic.................

John:
I spent from 1981, to 1985 reloading and playing with every caliber pistol avaliable, and the same for rifles, up to and including benchrest work on a sabot 12 gauge round.
These were tested on game, by my friends, in the Santa Cruz mountains.

While my friend used a 270 for deer, he also liked the 308 caliber cartridges, though he didn't own an 06, but 3 fantastic 308's, an
M-60, and two match grade M1A's.

I bought the 06.

Big Stick: So Gerald is wrong?

http://gunlinks.zibycom.com/members/002245268/Site2/375hh.html

He suggests higher velcoity is possible in a longer barrel, and the barrel used was a 24 inch...

John, I guess it's ok to bring up ballistics if it supports what the current group wants it to support, but, a different opinion requires personal experience????

I guess I can't use others experiences here, and use their conclusions about the effects of caliber, and velocity?

I can always tell I've come up with something you all don't want to address, when you start asking for experience, etc.

Odd that I now have to prove, through hunting experience, what we all know. 30-06
kills game, and 375, with a well placed shot, and the proper bullet, can be used for anything on the planet.

I also agree with you guys, that a flat shooting, light bullet weight is effective
on deer size game.

223 will kill a deer, and be easy on the shoulder.

So, who cares? You guys want to think your ultra mags are God's gift, that's fine.

I have a different position, and, through a bunch of test shooting of different calibers, believe in moderate pressure, larger bullets, with more weight, and, excellent ballistic coefficents.

I also like pre-expanded bullets, so bullet failure is not a problem.

The 375's recoil is at the limits of what I think I can fire, judging from my experience with 12 gauge, full house magnum loads, firing a 500 grain sabot, at 1600 fps+, and maintain any sort of accuracy. This from a bench.

That said, I'm not intrested in ultramags, and overbore rifles. You guys are. That's fine.

Can we just differ on this? Or, can you run the ballistics on Geralds bullets, and compare them to your 300 mags, with 220 grain non-game designed matchkings?

If I remember, the original argument is why not to get a 30-06?

WITH THOUSANDS OF ROUNDS OF 308 UNDER MY BELT,both in reloading, and shooting, I can safely say the 308 is easier to make more accurate, uses less powder, is cheaper to load, and does everything an 06 will do, except shooting heavy bullets, at higher velocities.

It's a very efficent cartridge, one of the best, for it's ballistic results.

Can you say the same for your lighter, 270 or 7mm? Are they cheap to feed? How about powder used for velocity returned?

Seems to me they are much harder on components, and I'm still unconvinced a zip bullet, at super high velocity, is any better for killing then a larger hole, with a proper expanding bullet.

However, for long range hunting, I'm pretty sure you guys know what you are doing, and the 300 mag, or other magnum solutions, work, for long range sniping.

Not denying that. I'm just saying that most people aren't going to be killing stuff at the ranges you guys want these rifles for.

If so, then a smaller diameter bullet, with high velocity, and less recoil makes sense, since for killing deer, a 55 grain slug will do the job.

If you want a more flexible cartridge, that's cheaper to use, and fire, and load for, you can't beat 308.

270 and all those other calibers you guys are discussing just aren't produced in sufficent quantity to make the prices low enough to be better then a 308.

If the 308 is too much gun, recoil wise, why not go down to 223?
It's plenty for deer hunting, huge numbers of bullets, doesn't use much powder, and hardly kicks at all?

For the general run of the mill guy, the suggestions you are making just don't seem too sensible to me.

The best rifle is the one that does the job, that you like to fire, kicks little enough so you can fire it a lot, and, is cheap enough so you can practice a ton with it.

That puts the 223 and 308 at the top of the heap.

gs

------------------
I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

" Now, I only hunt white tails and black bear. Maybe someday I will get to hunt sheep, wild hogs, elk, moose, or antelope...

But darned if I ain't now thinking that I could do anything I will ever do in the lower 48 states with a 180 grain Nosler in a good shooting Mauser action 30-06... And jeez, if I forget my handloads, I can find 30-06 ammo in old coffee cans in abandoned cabins!!"

Considering the original posters question, and reasons for owning a 30-06, do you guys really think your suggestions on caliber, apply?
Cheap ammo, avaliable in coffee cans in cabins?

Something that will kill black bear?

I think you all are putting your own preferences on this, and failing to remember the question, or reason for the post.

A cheap source of ammunition, avaliable everywhere, and a caliber that's got a wide enough range of loadings to kill elk, or black bear, along with deer, etc.

Kind of wondering if even 308 fits that description...

gs

Big Stick

I forgot to add in the 338/378. I had that when they were a wildcat and my mate also had a 257 STW.

As John S will tell you I think the 338 Ultra maybe the best of the Ultras. I had an order for a Sendero but there has been a stuff up which will delay. I am also keen on the 375 Ultra.

Our shooting is different to yours in that we are shooting roos, pigs and goats like you shoot prairie dogs. There is no doubt that when you shoot a lot trajectory does not seem to matter.

I have used the 270, 308, 300 Win and 375 more than anything else and if anything my "hits to shots fired" is actually better with the 308 and 375.

The only reason I can up with is that I find a lot of shots are either this side of 300 yards or way out. I think with the slower calibers you get use to holding over at the 250 to 300 yards mark and that helps when they are way out.

However, I think if there was only the opportunity for a few animals to be taken, then the faster caliber would come to the lead.

But the overall conclusion I came to years ago was it did not make much difference in end results with different calibers. Thus the best and most effective calibers are the one or ones you like.

What I like about the 375 is that I find it a relaxing caliber. I can go to the range fire off a few round nose Hornadies, have a cup of tea, a smoke and a talk. But with the small quick ones I am worring about ballistic coefficients etc. and etc.

I also believe caliber types tend to lead you to a style of shooting that in fact favours the caliber in question.

People also report more favourably on the performance of the caliber they like.

I see myself on the home straight with guns now and will soon have a pair of blued and a pair of stainless M70s with actions cleaned up and custom stocked and in 300 H&H and 375 H&H. Thus I see the guns themselves as more important than the calibers, at this stage of my shooting life.

Actually, I think for me a 270 would be better than the 300 H&H, but not for custom guns for the obvious match up reasons of the 2 H&Hs.

A 338 Ultra will be in the "just to have department"

But another 30/06 will not becoming until I enter the retirement home

In fact if the law was such that all I could own was a 30/06, I would just get a Ruger Stainless, some factory ammo and leave it in the gun safe and take up a new interest like radio controlled helicopters.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 02-12-2002).]

Big stick,what would I possibly need a new 7-08 for, it's not even as good as a .270. As for being mad at Weatherby, I've got no anger towards them. They've done a superb job of bullshitting the shooting public into buying masses of their rifles,which is excellent business sense. Six pages of posts and the 30/06 still remains the great cartridge it is for 99% of N. American game.

Socrates-
First off, whether or not we agree is not important. If you have "proven" field experience that makes you believe as you do, is what I wanted to know. I can respect someone's ideas, even though I don't agree with them, if they have experience to back them up. Basing your opinions on the writings or tales of others will not get you where you need to be.
I prefer specific calibers for specific uses, and I happen to like high velocity because MY OWN field experience tells me it makes things dead a lot faster, whether or not the targeted animal is 50yds or 450yds from the gun.
I also do not buy into the big bullet, no expansion necessary line you always bring up. That goes counter to everything I have ever seen in the gamefields. Bullet expansion and velocity combine to create shock, and this, plus proper penetration leads to a very dead animal very quickly. Try shooting a cape buffalo in the chest with your 375 and a solid bullet, then try it again with a premium soft point. Or, kill a few deer with a 454 Casull with a hard cast, non expanding lead projectile, and then with a 260gr Nosler partition. There is a difference, I've seen it firsthand.
Like you, I like efficient cartridges and when they meet my criteria as a hunting round I use them. The 270WCF is one of, if not my all time favorite caliber. It is very efficient, easy on barrels, kicks very little and is extremely accurate. I also like the 6mm Rem. as a small game/target round.
However, we differ in that I am a hunter and choose what I consider the most effective caliber for my purposes. I'm not THAT concerned with efficiency, pressure levels, barrel erosion or all the other "bad" traits you avoid. I demand a certain level of performance and accuracy, past that..maux nix. The 30/06 does not, has not and will not meet my criteria as a hunting round so I don't buy into all of the BS surrounding it. It will not match the 270 as an antelope or sheep round, it will not match my 300Wby as an elk or moose round and it certainly won't match my 33 G&A as a brown bear cartridge. So what the hell do I want with it?

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 02-12-2002).]

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 02-12-2002).]

Socrates,

I can't comment on another man's rifle,but can on mine. I've had two 24" barreled Sako's in 375H&H and three Remington 700's in the same,with 24" tubes. A 378Wby with a 26" tube and a 22" and 23" 375H&H Ackley built,for use in the puckerbrush.

Of those,only the 378 would grant the speeds you mentioned.

The Ultra is a good concept,for someone that can use it and wishes too. The Ultra's are amongst the worst chamberings I could recommend a man new to Shooting and Hunting. They simply generate recoil most find abusive and hard to control.

For those reasons,bad habits develop and they do a lot of missing,while getting the shit kicked out of them. Few will listen,buy the rifle anyhow and the smart ones sell it and start with a more realistic expectation.

I've always been a huge 243Win fan,as well as a champion of the 7-08. With them you have good trajectory,good bullet selection,modest recoil and they aren't so fierce that practice will be negated.

That is a benefit of the 257Wby too. It is very soft shooting and is very easy to do well with. To graduate to a cartridge that will shoot flatter,you will be in a realm of MUCH increased recoil. For a guy in big country,few do it better.

I'd BEG someone new to look at one of those chamberings,loooong before the word "Ultra" was muttered.

You surmise what is best,without a single yank of the trigger,with any of those chamberings? That is foolish.

If you wish to compare the trajectory of two cartridges,don't slight yourself. What are the BC's available with Geralds .308" 165gr/180gr offerings? Or his .257" offerings. Only a neophyte would compare the worst example of one diameter,against the best of another and think it would fly amongst folks who dabble in such things.

Mechanical cartridge performance,is an issue seperate from making the least expensive ammo. I shoot bulk bullets by the 10's of thousands for year round practice. I buy bulk propellants and primers,that to defray the expense of practice.

If you want to practice on the cheap,you CAN'T beat the 223. I've a herd of them and several more in their Ackley Improved version.

My 9yr old son has fired 4 shots at Deer,from a Custom 223 I built for him on a S/S Model Seven. He's punched 4 tags,with his 4 Bucks. Why? He practices and I know his limitations with that rifle. The longest shot was his first Buck,it was a 131yd broadside. The shortest was 25',on a Buck I called in for him. He shoots more a year,than most grown men.

He killed his first Bear with a 25-284,when he was 8.

With placement and good bullets,filling tags is easy. Many would try to tell you otherwise,but that is fact.

The 233 is one of my favorite chamberings,for calling Deer. It is a sledgehammer,I make it a point to kill at least one a year that way.

The reason most folks think much more is required,is because most can't shoot. Most folks would be better served,with a lighter recoiling rifle,that they enjoyed practicing with. A guy who shoots an Elk in the ass 17 times with a 308,is one of the Bozos in line to buy a 300Ultra,because they are "better".

I'm not a proponent of pushing "big" rifles on guys. I dig flat trajectories,good bullets and good placement. Of course,that is why I'm always in the minority,because those things can be realized with less than brutal recoil.............

john holmes,

That was a lovely tirade. I hope it isn't over.

Show me a shooting discipline that the 270Win outnumbers/outperforms the 7-08 and get back to me,with it's convincing air of superiority.

You are right,six pages of posts and the 7-08 is right alongside it,with the 308 in tow.........

Mike,

I KNOW the 338 is the best of the Ultra's. no doubt about it,they hit that one on the head.

I believe locale and critters most often Hunted,are the driving force in personal cartridge selection,by serious folks.

Alaska is amazingly diverse. If I were to tote but a single rifle,it would be the 338Ultra. You could sleep in your tent soundly at night,in Brownie Country. It will reach out in dramatic fashion,if that is required and everything closer than that,is in even worse trouble. I built mine on the heavy side,with recoil absorption in mind.

It is based upon a Sako L61R,wears a #4 contour 26" long S/S Douglas barrel. It rides in a dark camo McMillan Sako Hunter pattern stock and has a 3.5-10x Leupold with elevation turret. It is superbly accurate,fairly soft shooting and simply excellent. Hard not to do well with it. I think I hit the blueprint for perfection squarely.

I've built pretty much everything that ever interested me,few stones are left unturned. A 257WSM calls,another Big 30 in M40A1 vein,a 375Ultra also and that rounds things out nicely.

What I REALLY want to try,is the new Leica 1200LRF. My 800LRF was a POS and I returned it. I'm hoping they got the new one right................

JohnS:

John: I just like bullets that are already as big diameter wise, as most of the lighter guns, using expanding bullets. That doesn't preclude using quality expanding bullets.

However, cast bullets are, or can be, very cheap, and the more you fire, the better off you are.

I don't see the 30-06 as a gun that recoils much. Again, I can load mine down, and it kicks like a pussy cat, still being sufficent for 99% of the game the guy mentioned the poster was intrested in.

As for my position on larger bullets, preexpanded, that comes from a family or two that lived in Wyoming, and shot dinner with
45 Long colt. A keith style bullet, at 1000 fps kills dinner very dead, and is a pussy cat to fire.
They create a large wound channel, with little meat damage, unlike expanding bullets.

For getting dinner, the 270 you mention, and I suspect the smaller calibers, are a better choice then a 308, or 06.

Still, you can load down either cartridge, using lighter bullets, and less velocity, so you get less meat damage.

"Most folks would be better served,with a lighter recoiling rifle,that they enjoyed practicing with. A guy who shoots an Elk in the ass 17 times with a 308,is one of the Bozos in line to buy a 300Ultra,because they are "better".
"
I agree with the above statement.
That's what I've been trying to say.

I don't find the 06 to be a big cartridge, if loaded properly, and the same goes for a 308.

If the recoil bothers you that much, put a magnum recoil pad, and mercury in the stock, or even a muzzle break.

I'm currently having the 30 year old pad replaced on my 06, along with bedding, and general smoothing over.
I want this puppy to drive tacks.

Big Stick: As for the ballistics involved,
I've always like bullet caliber, big, as a starting point.

That said, that usually comes with recoil.
Don't mind it much in handguns, and, except in full auto, don't think 308 kicks much at all. I guess in a real light rifle, it might.

As for the 375 specs, Gerald does say his
bullets get higher speeds, out of rifles designed for them, then others.

I wouldn't be inclined to fire such loads.
Unless it was just a hunting load.

I do like to practice with what I would use, and, I don't know how I'll do that with a 375.
Handloading lead bullets to 2400, probably.

Anyway, I don't see much of a disagreement here.

John likes hunting bullets, in smaller calibers, etc.
My friend loved the 270 for deer. The poster here wanted a cheap, all around cartridge.

I haven't shopped for a 270, or checked on bullets, but are they widely avaliable, and cheap, along with cheap brass, like the 308?
Would you feel comfortable taking bear with a 270?

You used to be able to buy boxes of PMC hardball 308 for nothing, then reload the cases. I suppose that hardball would kill deer as well, with little fuss, and little tissue damage.

What are the expenses in shooting the rifles you guys like?

From my experience, the 223 was cheapest, followed by 308, and 30-06, when you factored in powder, bullets, primers, and brass.

How do the 270 and others compare? 257 WBY?

What do these calibers offer that can't be done with a 223 for cheaper?

John: I thought this thread was about what this poster wanted in a rifle, and that rifle had to meet his criteria, not yours or mine?

gs

[This message has been edited by Socrates (edited 02-12-2002).]

What will a 270 do, that a 30-06 won't, using the same weight bullets????
Besides, being more expensive to fire.

gs

I find the 7-08/308 an easy place to draw a line in the sand. To truly bring more to the table,you must increase case capacity moreso,than the '06 offers.

For that reason I am inclined to happily field those cartridges and when more is deemed as necessary,I shift gears and get the performance I think required for the specific task. That altogether bypasses the 30-06,from the equation...................

More expensive to fire? How do you figure that? It uses virtually the same amounts of the same types of powder! primers cost the same, as do any commercial cases.
As far as long range ballistics, check the BCs and SDs of 150gr bullets in each diameter. The 270 150gr Ballistic Tip has a BC of .496 and SD of .279 VS the '06 150gr numbers of .435 and .226. Velocities are very similar, recoil is less in the 270 and it's greater SD will provide better penetration, all else being equal.

Big Stick,

Near as I can figure, the 338 Ultra should give velocities very close to the 300 Wby for bullets of equal sectional density.

I imagine recoil will up about 375 Improved level.

Just about my entire 338 bore experience has been limited to paper.

Mike

I have a 7mm-08, nice cartridge, but it's no .270Win!

Is 270 brass as cheap as 308, or 30-06 brass?
John, aren't you arguing over hairs here?

Don't the 270 and 308-30-06 perform pretty much the same function on game?
Are the deer going to notice the difference?

Do you think a 270 makes a good black bear round, or elk?

gs

30-06 brass works just fine necked to .277

Socrates-
I think you are the one attempting to split hairs regarding costs to shoot either one of these rounds!
In my experience, the 270 provides better accuracy, less recoil and better trajectories than the 30/06. So, for MY USE it is a better deer/sheep/antelope hunting round than the 30/06. These are the activities it was specifically designed for!
Deer sized game that is properly hit will succumb equally well to a hit from either one. Making that hit is easier, IMO, with the 270.
I do not consider the 30/06 ideal for MY elk or bear hunting, just as I do not consider the 270 for same. For just deer and black bear, either will do but I prefer the 270 for the above mentioned reasons.
Like I've said before, I don't buy into " The 30/06 is all a hunter needs to know about Big Game Rifles" theory. If you're going to go hunting, use a rifle that is 100% capable under all the conditions you might encounter. There might be such a thing as a one size fits all caliber, but I'm not convinced it exists.

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 02-12-2002).]

Big Stick,

In the Minority? I think not......maybe in your choice of calibers? Most certainly if you based your opinions on your experience in the bush. After keeping up with this thread through 250 posts or so, it's obvious there's not been much in the way of actual game taken; great read though. I might add you should be proud of your son and youself for sharing your experience with him. Spring bear's right around the corner. My guess is you'll be there, not just talking about it.

I dont have nearly as many weapons as many guys here do nor the technical experience which Im sure is apparent but I can still reckognize BS when I see it. I enjoy lurking around this site and have learned much here and still have a lot too learn and I have a lot of respect for many members.

I think all big stick is trying to say for the most part (pardon if Im mistaken) is that he favors a load with a high SD and a retained velocity over the oppisite which is not difficult to understand or appreciate. Still I dont see how one could possibly state the above and also that a 308 is somehow a reason for not wanting a 30-06 in the same breath/thread.

Personally, under most circumstances I have to agree that a high SD and strong velocity equates to a very proficcent combination, my old 7mm rm convinced me of that. However, where big game is the topic I also agree that a good rule of thumb is to limit ones shots to approximatley 300 yds and for that, very high velocities are simply not nessesary. Why subject yourself to unnessesary recoil and premature barrel fatigue? IMHO anything over about 3000-3200 fps is strictly a testostrone thing.

There is no replacement for real life experience but anybody knows that published reloading data is based on extensive testing and has to be generally accurate and so I dont see anything wrong with one using such data to make a point or as a reference. As much as I do respect most forum members here I seriously doubt if there are many (if any) here who can actually contribute more meaningfull, factual information than the makers of such published works beyond the minute details of extreme accuracy even though it would appear that many here feel they can.

My first reply to this thread was that I would prefer to have a 270 in one hand and a 338-06 in the other as opposed to a 30-06, I stand by that statement, but still I fail to see how anyone can say that a cartridge that has been the topic of disgussions such as this one for over a century is boring..

Have a day...

Big Stick-
I forgot to mention that when May arrives a friend and I will be up in your neighborhood. We'll be prowling around for a couple of those monster black bear so please leave a few for us!

John S,

I think this year is going to yield exceptional specimens,regarding the quality of their hides. It has remained cold in much of the denning areas,that seems to very much help,as opposed to a "warm" Winter.

I'll be amazed if I don't see the first Giant,within a month..............

First of all,the only person that would place the 7-08 in the same class as the 30/06 is yourself and who knows why that is,probably because you have such a hard on for the 30/06,your reduced to pulling things out of your ass.The 7-08 is no where near as versatile as the 30/06.
So what is the attraction to the 7-08? The common answer is accuracy and in the capacity of a hunting rifle that accuracy is worthless. Next it's the idea of short actions,again meaningless in a big game rifle. Then we go to barrel length, the common length is 18 to 20 inches for the 7-08 and this is nice and handy,but it really kills velociety. So lets put a 24 or 26 inch barrel on a short action rifle defeating any handling advantage, so we obtain nearly the same velociety as a 7x57 mauser or .270 that sports a 22inch barrel. Ya big stick that 7-08 is a real performer.

John Holmes

Whats the attraction to the 7-08?

That is easy, it is NOT a 30-06. Other than this there is no reason to pick a 7-08 over a 30-06 for big game hunting.

Jason

john holmes,

Hot damn! You're still on a rant.

I've zero bitch against the 30-06. It served a very useful purpose,for a very long while,until technology allowed very real performance increases over it.

But you keep babbling how the 7-08 equates to the 30-06. I understand that,you needn't reiterate the obvious.

You draw a line in the sand where the 7-08 quits performing. Then draw a line where the 30-06 quits performing and then weigh in with the distinct differences.

I submit that line is at a like distance for both.

Case in point: The dreaded 24" barreled 30-06,utilizing the 165gr XLC at 2800fps and a 250yd zero.

Drop at 600yds,-68.43"
10mph wind drift at same: 28.1"
Retained energy at 600yds,1195ft lbs

Truly awe inspiring and certainly worthy of your incessant bitching?!!?

Now the dreaded 24" barreled 7-08,utilizing the 140grXLC at 2900fps and the same 250yd zero.

Drop at 600yds,-59.66"
10mph wind drift at same: 22.6"
Retained energy at 600yds,1240ft lbs

The culmination,of your misguided whining,of a cartridge you've zero experience with?

That damn shitty,little old,new fangled,worthless,flash in the pan,hyped up,piece of shit. Has it ALL over the '06.

It shoots 9" flatter.
Impacts at 191fps faster
Hits with 45ft lbs more energy
Drifts 5.5" less
SD is even .001 more for the 7-08

ALL with less recoil,powder and increased accuracy. I pulled that one out of my "ass",courtesy Barnes #2. Nosler #3 grants the '06 3000fps and the 7-08 2925fps,with the same weights I mention.

I can understand your frustration in trying to hammer into my thick brain,those obvious "advantages" for the 30-06.

The 7-08 is a sleeper,that few recognize. I've enough shells downrange through them and critters in the dirt,to comment that I believe it to mimic 30-06 performance.

Of course I said that,a looooong time ago,in this colorful debate.................

john holmes,

I think with the 7-08 Big Stick is trying to maximise efficiency within "caliber groups"

Perhaps I can give an example, although I am restricted to Australia, but I am sure you could extrapolate.

If you want to belt roos and pigs, 270 and up is much better than 243.

However, whether it is 7-08, 303, 308, 270, 30/06 or 300 Win the results will be about the same.

Of that group of calibers, the 7-08 will do it with the least recoil and blast (308 more recoil but less blast,just covering the finer points )

In other words, if we go to the 30/06 we lose.

Why. Because we don't gain in trajectory and the extra power does not manifest itself in the way the roos or pigs will hit the dirt, but we will have more recoil and for equal barrel lengths we will have a longer rifle.

To really thump those animals hard and drop their innards on the ground, we need to move up to 375 or 458 with soft bullets or with altered Hornadies.

On the other hand, if we want real flat trajectory we need something other than the 30/06.

I don't share either John S's or Big Stick's views of a caliber for every occasion.

However, if things are to be focused on one caliber, then the 375 H&H or 338 Ultra are the answer, not the 30/06.

Why do I say 338 Ultra and 375 H&H.

Firstly, because both are about the tops for recoil where compromise does not need to be made. Secondly, they offer different approaches and in many ways.

Can you think of anything that I could do with a 30/06 that I could not do with a 375. In fact the opposite is the case. With the 30/06 (and 308, 270 etc) and bullets that are too hard, there will be lots of running and hopping. The 375 still seems to work.

Can you think of anything I could do with a 30/06 that I could not do with a 7-08. In this case the 7-08 will do it with less recoil, less blast and a shorter rifle. Some might say that the 30/06 would be better on moose or similar. That is probably true, but why not have a 375 in the first place.

Lastly, consider this if you will. John S and Mr Stick obviously disagree with me on my caliber. My choice of caliber is driven by reliability, relaxation, ease of use etc. and etc. But I do not use the 30/06.

Mike

Mike,

That is why I left the door open for debate,by the mention of Noslers favorable speed for the 30-06,over their 7-08 data.

They are VERY close,from a ballistics standpoint. As it is on Game. Favor can be skewed one way or the other,dependant upon numerous criteria. Bottom line,there isn't a critter that will shake one and succumb to the other.

My contention all along,is the 30-06 isn't the only Belle at the Ball. However,many folks would mistakenly jump to that conclusion,despite having NOT tried the numerous other chamberings mentioned within this thread.................

( I guess I should proof read my posts)

[This message has been edited by Big Stick (edited 02-12-2002).]

Big Stick,

From your post:

Bottom line,there isn't a critter that will shake one and succumb to the other.

That is very true.

Mike

I like mike:lol:

I have to say, the 375 is the queen of the ball, if not the answer for the question this guy asked.

You aren't going to find 375 ammo in cans, in abandoned cabins. You are going to feel completely comfortable with every shot, and every bear, that decides to eat you.

YOu better have a good shoulder, and practice, and have a few extra bucks to fire the 375, and you better not be a substitute teacher, trying to pay for the 375, and it's expensive habits, unless you use cast bullets, and, reload yourself.

gs

"270 is a great deer cartridge, but if
Mon Feb 11 22:41:48 2002
216.222.14.184

elk or moose enter the picture, the 06 is much more versatile and capable. Ive seen elk killed with everything (just about) and I know the old argument that bullet placement is everything, but if you kill big old bulls, they can really die hard. My elk cartridges are 338. Win. Mag., 340 WBY and 375 WBY, but if all I had was an 06, I would hunt elk none the less--I would just have to limit my range a little more than I currently do."

I don't really know much about 270, but that it works on deer, fires flat, and doesn't have enough bullet weight for larger game.

That said, the above quote is from one of many real hunters, that I really respect, on the subject.

Guess since it's his opinion, and it's not mine, it doesn't mean anything???

Sort of like quoting Ray Atkinson on his experience on African game, and the impact of bullet caliber...

gs

By the way, from here out, I am going to take great joy in making fun of your, haven't done it, or experienced it arguments, and how stupid that entire line of argument is.

What forums are about, is different people sharing their experiences, regardless if it's first hand, in a book if properly quoted, or second hand, relating anothers' experience, or third hand, reading Jim Corbett on tigers, and why he survived to write all those books.

So anytime you want to use the,
"What's your personal experience?" crap, I am going to throw it right back in your face, quoting famous gun writers, ammunition manufacturers, and gun makers, that have informed me of their experiences with using their inventions on game. Guys like, John Linebaugh, Paco Kelly, Lee Jurras, Ross Seyfried, Jim Taylor, John Taffin, etc.

You know, the real ROOKIES OF THE BUSINESS.

But, damn, I guess you guys know everything, and they are just ignorant jerks, never done anything in their lives...

So, if I use stuff from one of them in the forum, it's of no value, if Paco killed an elephant with a cast 9.62 bullet at 2400 fps, cause, it's not my experience, just his, posted to me, on the question at hand...

So, as I've said, be happy to tell you my limited;rolleyes: experience in hunting game, and, the idiots that told me such STUPID INFORMATION ABOUT FIREARMS...

So, bring it on...
gs

------------------
I love 45
santilli@singleaction45.com

Big stick your comparison of the 7-08 to the 30/06 is a joke. Lets take a 30/06 with 24 inch barrel 165 gr bullets at a slow speed of 2800 fps,which could easily be beat with a 22inch barrel and some honest 180gr loads,but we won't do that because your beloved 7-08 would really get its ass spanked. Then lets take a 7-08 in a custom or rare barrel length of 24 inches,then hopefully the rifle will actually reach 2900fps with a 140gr bullet,if not we'll just step up to a 26 inch barrel like nosler publishes its data with.Hell while we're at it lets throat the barrel out a little longer so you can fill the 7-08 case up a little more. Now we can finally make a half assed comparison of a factory 30/06 to a 7-08 and make the 7-08 look even half way impressive. Come on big stick, I know you have another lame comparison for your 7-08 against a 30/06,so give it to us.

Big Stick won't ever like the '06.
That's fine.
The disturbing part, is why any of us '06 users care.

john holmes,

I think what Big Stick is saying is that both 7-08 and 30/06 are in the same bracket of power.

Obviously if you shoot 100s of animals and if animals came in incements of body weight by 1 pound, then differences in ballistics would be more obvious.

I have seen a similar thing with shooting kangaroos with calibers from 270 through to and including the 300 Magnums.

That is, with chest shots and bullets that expand quick, they usually go straight down. On the other hand, if bullets are to hard, they will hop on irrespective of whether it was a 270 or 300 Win. The same pretty much applies to pigs as well.

Undoubtedly if we could make the kangaroos somewhat bigger (how much bigger I don't know) then we would see a consistent difference between the 270 and 300 magnum.

Mike

john holmes,

I needn't sway anything. Your just pissed at the messenger,because your preconceived notions aren't close to reality. They've Medication for that.

Even Speer #12 on pg.220 grants the 7-08 a speed of 2933fps with a 24"(they chose the length,not me)and their 145gr projectiles. In fact,there are 3 loads over 2900fps there,for the 145gr.

Pg.291 of the same,grants 2803fps as their fastest 165gr 30-06 load,though they opted a 22" barrel length.

What you fail to realize,is the 7-08 is less hammered by shorter barrel lengths,because it employs less capacity to be affected.

Remington offers 20",22" and 24" barrel lengths,in 7-08. The differences between them,isn't what you wish to portray.

I simply related the most favorable examples for each cartridge,from load data currently in vogue. I suggest you call the Manufacturers of that data and say,"I john holmes am pissed,because the 7-08 performs much better than I thought". Perhaps in future Editions,they will use 26" 30-06 test beds,weighed against 18" 7-08 test beds,so you could be removed from medication.

Even looking throug a glossary of available factory ammo and their performance ratings,in the G&A Annual,I see the same data I offered you initially.

There are (7) 140/145gr 7-08 loads that meet,or exceed 2800fps,not counting the High energy loadings. That from pg. 206 out of my 2000 G&A(I left last years in Camp and haven't the 2002).

On pg. 211,there (9) 30-06 165gr loads,that meet 2800fps. One offering by Federal,makes 2900fps. Of course,that is not counting the high energy loads.(As an interesting aside,the "lowly" 308 breaks 2700fps nine seperate times,with the same weight projectiles. Again excluding high energy offerings).

So if you deem velocities I offered as a gross misrepresentation,you should call ALL the Ammunition Manufacturers and voice a complaint.

So you can imlement judicous handloading,shoot Factory rolled ammo,or opt the High Energy loadings for both. The comparison remains the same,however you wish to conduct the experiment.

If you fail to understand any of the simple data,I'd be happy to elaborate.............