quote:

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Originally posted by Big Stick:
J Brown,

I dont like to cut-n-paste too much but lets take this one at a time.

Wstrnhuntr,

I never implied the 308 would outclass,outdistance,or deliver more energy than the 30-06. I stated it boasts an edge in mechanical accuracy potential and couples that with performance quite similar to the 30-06. All those things are wrapped into a shorter action. That is no gigantic earth shattering advantage,but certainly is NOT a handicap.

No! it is not a gigantic earthshattering advantage.. is it!

Of all the VERY good reasons to own an '06(your words),I find it odd you couldn't mention a one of them?

Not a problem, and I did mention one VERY good one earlier. Its simply the most effective non magnum 30 cal. that money can buy, its popularity while seen buy some as annoying can actually be huge plus for those of us who choose to view otherwise. The avaliability of reloading components, data, bullet variety and gun combinations are unsurpassed even by the 308.

I can see your troubles,with the 7-08 and it's very difficult to obtain componetry. Damn hard to find 308 brass. Those "oddball".284" projectiles are equally rare. Propellants in the middle of the spectrum,that are candidates for the 308/30-06 work very well in the 7-08. I suppose they are rare too?

I get my 30-06 brass from the local range for nothing because they have more than they know what to do with. Granted the 7-08 has become very popoular in a short time and if resizing is your thing then have at it. All I was suggesting before editing myself is that I prefer reloading the 30-06 and the .30 cal bullet selection over those available in .284.

Ballistics is Physics. Really nothing to "prove". Bullet #A at a given speed and a given make up,will behave in a given manner downrange.

You imply the 30-06 to perform in such a radically exceptional manner,that a comparison of the 7-08/308 to it,needs "proof". The proof is they move like sized projectiles,at like speeds. That will yield like results. I'd not be bragging,that you failed to discern the obvious.

NO! What I was implying is that the 30-06 has taken nearly every kind of game anywhere in the world, has the 7-08? Your personal testimonial of the 7-08 is certianly reassuring but I personally just dont see it having the same killing power on something as large as the 30-06 is known to handle.

Just what do you use your 30-06 for,that makes it "perfect"?

I hunt Elk with it usually in heavy pines and occasionally across canyons up to about 250 yd shots and am trying for a Moose tag here as well but theyre tough to come by here. Sure there are plenty of others that can do the same job but like I said earlier, for me its the happy medium between many considerations. Im not trying to sell anyone on an 06, Im just saying that it doesnt have to be a jack of all trades to fit ones needs.

What task has it performed for you,that the 7-08/308 couldn't do,in like fashion?

Not a damn thing! Youre the one suggesting that we all would be better off with an 08. I just said that Id rather have the extra energy of an 06 as opposed to the 7mms flatter trajectory.

I smell a great deal of speculation and utter confusion,by someone who has dabbled little with the cartridges he mentions(if at all)...................

And I smell an ill motivated resentment.

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You contradict yourself,or simply failed to miss the point. I'll clarify. The 30-06 brings nothing to the table the 308Win can't effectively resemble. The 308Win is largely the same animal.

Pard,you can make 7-08 cases out of 30-06 brass. You can make 308 cases out of 30-06 brass,so that is a push. 30cal bullets work just as nicely in the 308Win as they do the '06. Were you under the impression they are somehow different?

The 7x57Mauser has a fair to middlin' track record on the largest Game. It has been used extensively for the harvest of Elephant. I don't endorse that(nor would anyone else),but it is of merit. The 7mmMauser of that era,was of less performance than today's 7-08. Further,the bullets of today are better. Though FMJ's and solids,really haven't altered much,in that application.

I've killed more Elk with the 7-08,than any other chambering. Works well,no fuss. But Elk aren't difficult to kill in the first place. Another mystique,that escapes me.

I never said everyone should rush to the store and make an immediate purchase of a shiny new 7-08. I stated continually,there are many cartridges that boast the same capabilities,as the larger 30-06. It certainly does NOT stand alone,in regards to what it brings to the table.

I've no resentment. I'm trying to accurately relay thoughts and performance characteristics.

Further,I'd submit the 300WSM will do things the 30-06 can't and does it in a smaller package. "Magnum" is an often touted moniker,with little bearing on anything. I prefer to weigh carridges by the action length required to house them. That is a more accurate portrayal,in my opinion.

I've a 224Wby "magnum". Most would argue that designation and I'd side with them...........

The 30-06 55 gr by Remington starts at 4,080 fps and when it's 1.4" high at 100 yards it's 2.4" low at 300 yards!

Send my check to the NRA ILA.

If the 257 Wby is the way to go and the 30/06 is not, then the 300 Ultra should be the way to go and the 375 not be the way to go.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by Big Stick:
Wstrnhuntr,

You contradict yourself,or simply failed to miss the point. I'll clarify. The 30-06 brings nothing to the table the 308Win can't effectively resemble. The 308Win is largely the same animal.

..........

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OH! is THAT your point? I thought that was MY point!!

Like I said, If resizing is your thing then have at it, Ive better things to do.

I know there are a lot of good reasons for chosing something OTHER than a 30-06 but I hope I have made my reasons for having chosen one myself apparent. When used within its boundries there is really nothing wrong with them and being versatile is NOT their only virtue.

Certainly you don't imply that a saboted 55gr .224" projectile of modest BC,at 4000fps out of an '06,will shoot flatter than the 257Wby?

Naaaaah,didn't think so.

If it did,you could only imagine what a saboted projectile in the 257Wby,would be capable of?!?

The 257Wby is nearly a ballistic freak of nature,it is so amazing. The 100gr XLC(BC.420) sighted 2" high at 100yds,is zeroed at 300yds. It is only -176.4" low at 1000yds and drifts only 75.2" in a 10mph full value cross wind.

My favorite light barreled 30-8mmRemMag will squirt the 180 Ballistic Tip(BC.507)at 3350fps with extreme accuracy,from it's 26" tube. Sighted in 2" high at 100yds,it yields a 250yd zero. It drops -238.7" at 1000yds and drifts 88.5" in a 10mph full value cross wind.

The 257Wby shoots 62.30"(over five feet) flatter and drifts over 13" less. One of the many reasons I dote on it............

Mike,

"Should" is a misnomer. I've reservations on the potential of the 300Ultra,when coupled with a 26" long barrel. Regardless of that,it is in a distinct league seperate altogether from the 30-06.

Of the readily available big cases now on line,the 338Ultra impresses me most,from the confines of a 26" tube. It would be hard to argue the 210X out of that combo at 3400fps,as lacking for much.

The purpose of my commentary isn't to rally the troops in support of cartridges that best suit my needs. Rather,it is hopefully an eye-opener,as to what is available and a comparison with the Old War Horse.

Few Gents "need" the 338Ultra. However,most could find practical application of the 257Wby,to reliably handle most of their pursuits.

That is subject that deviates from the crux of the Thread(Reasons why you say NO to the 30-06)..............

Anyway 80% of my game is shot in a forest where your .257W bullets may blow up on branches or bone. Bear are in season here from 9-1 thru 11-15. No thanks to the .257 Freak of Nature. I will bet on a 30-06 Springfield anyday against the .257W.

I have outshot .257 Weatherby's with a 38-55. It's really not such a good cartridge or rifle.

If the 257 Wby is great and the 30/06 is shit then the 375 would be shit when compared to the 300 Ultra. The relationship between the 257 and 30/06 is almost identical to that of the 300 Ultra and 375 H&H.

Any reservations about the 300 Ultra could only be limited to 50 f/s or so.

Mike

I've shot 75gr X's out of my 257Wby's,at over 4150fps. I submit they employ more speed and a better BC,than the prior saboted contraption you cite. Go ahead and do the math.

Bear Season here,is open year round,excepting July and August. Just what does that have to do with anything? Hell,we even have trees! They come replete with branches too!

I've seen numerous HUGE Bears succumb nicely to the 257Wby and a single poke. Why would that not be glaringly obvious,as being amazingly effective,even to a casual observer?

I submit you've seen other 38-55 chambered rifles,that weren't the mechanical accuracy equal of yours? Should all 38-55's be judge by the criteria of those lesser examples?

Are you implying my 700 based 257Wby's,wearing barrels by the premier makers and McMillan stocks,coupled with Leupold optics are incapable of accuracy?

Naaaah,didn't think so................

I don't know how Big Stick has his rifles set up, but the two 257s a mate of mine has are extremely accurate.

They are 26 inch barrels that are .72" at the muzzle and with conventional throat and freebore, rather than the Wby standard.

Actions are Rem 700 Stainless with Jewell triggers and Schmidt and Bender scopes.

I know how accurate they are because I bedded his rifles, put on his Jewell triggers and shot his rifles.

Mike

You are grasping at straws and trying to put words in my mouth.

I never said the '06 is shit. I stated simply,that it is within a realm of performance,that numerous other cartridges occupy.

My reservations to the 300Ultra,are likely more than 50fps. Having never wrung one out,I can't submit hard data to substantiate,that suspicion.

I feel my 30-8mmRemmags are at the ceiling of effective utilization,of a 26" long barrel. That is a hunch,based on that cartridge's performance,weighed against my former 30-378Wby. The 30-378 burned a hell of a lot more powder,to generate more recoil and slightly improved speeds. My 30" barreled 30-8mmRem made better speeds,than it did. Extrapolating those findings,I'm reserved regarding gains the 300Ultra will give me,over my existing 30-8mmRem's,when housed within a 26" tube.

It is very likely you may read that data different. What I currently have available is .308" 180gr projectiles at over 3500fps from the 30" barrel,if I deem it necessary. That makes me content.

I've contemplated building a 30" barreled 300Ultra and I think that combo is of merit. The trouble with a rifle so configured,it is is unwieldy and unhandy. That is why I'm dragging my feet,assembling a second rifle of that configuration.

So I'll not bite,at your feeble attempts to stir the pot................

I have yet "had" to kill a single one. However,I've opted on numerous occasion to throw the switch at widely diverse distances.

I'm not drumming support,nor condoning anything involving distance. You will find your fill of that,on the MatchKing Thread...........

Why do you "weigh cartridges by the action length required to house them"? Do you simply feel better knowing you don't have that extra .5" to stress over?

If you want 308(or 7-08) balistics in the shortest and lightest package possible you should cut a 30-06(or 280rem) barrel back to
18.5" and be done with it. This set-up would be shorter, lighter and would have equal or better velocity than a 308(or 7-08) with a 22" barrel.

Jason

Action length is understood by all. Many associate the word "magnum" with lofty performance expectations,or a belted case. Though neither,is necessarily true.

The5mmRemMag,22WinMag,224WbyMag,222RemMag,6.5RemMag,350RemMag,etc,etc,are misnomers,all subject to vastly different performances. That despite wearing the "magnum" designation,in their name.

There are those that hear the word "magnum" and think it means something,it in fact does not.

You'd be very much suprised what your proposed 18.5" 280Rem would offer across the chronograph,in a direct comparison to a 22" barreled 7-08.................

(somehow this page grew in size)

[This message has been edited by Big Stick (edited 02-11-2002).]

"Action length is understood by all."

So why does it make any difference when comparing cartridges? The short action bs seems to be a crutch used to explain why we need these shortened versions of cartridges built on the 06 case.

Your rhetoric regarding the virtues of the short acting for sporting rifles reminds me of the the guys who say, "Well yea it doesn't quite perform up to the level of a V8 but its really hi-performance for a 4cyl."

Jason

[This message has been edited by J Brown (edited 02-11-2002).]

Action length is important,to equate things. Otherwise one could say the 50AE is a piece of shit,because the 50BMG trounces it. They are distinctly different classes of cartridge,despite sharing a similar diameter.

If action length is a crutch. Why can't the 30-06 outperform the 300WSM?................

I was refering to your assertion that the 308 is a better choice than a 30-06. I never said cartridge length is not important. It is true you can't make a fair comparsion between the mighty 50BMG and the 50AE. After all the 50BMG is not a hunting cartridge and the 50AE is a pistol cartridge. Talk about a red herring!

So for the last time, how does the fact that it fits in a short action make the 308 a better hunting cartridge than a 30-06????????????????????????????????

Jason

I fear that political correctness is creeping in.

That is, bad mouthing the 375 H&H is not acceptable.

Let's for a moment leave out the 300 Ultra and use the 300 Wby.

We still come back to if the 257 Wby is the way to go as compared to the 30/06 then the 300 Wby has to be the way to go as compared to the 375 H&H.

Thus we could put the 30/06 and 375 H&H into the same basket. Velocities are about equal for the same sectional density.

Mike

I've multiple friends that Hunt the 50BMG. They'd take issue,that it isn't deemed appropriate by you.

The 308 isn't "better". I stated repeatedly,that it offers like performance,with an edge in mechanical accuracy potential. So it does the same thing,with some added accuracy potential,in a lighter/shorter package.

Let me give you a concise analogy,that you'll hopefully grasp.

You are shopping for a box of ammo. One store offers it $25 per box of 20. A neighboring store offers the same product for $15 per box of 20.

You are confused why I'd spend $15 and be on my way?......................

I failed to connect with the point you were wishing to make?

You wish to infer the 30-06 and 375H&H are equally capable on the same class of Game? I'd argue that with you............

So if the $15 box had 100fps less velocity would you still pick it over the $25 box?

Jason

Mainly women did this....;-)

gs

I will try again.

257 Wby is the way to go and the 30/06 is a poor choice.

300 Ultra is the way to go and the 375 is a poor choice.

The 300 Ultra and 375 comparison has to be right if the 257 and 30/06 comparison is correct.

Mike

What is the most efficent case, for bullet weight?

30-06 will put a light slug out at 7mm ballistics. It will also put out a heavier slug at sufficent ballistics for anything.

I agree with the statement that a 150 or 180 grain slug, out of a 30-06, at high pressure, hand loads, are sufficent for just about everything in North America.

Now, if you live in someplace, that requires shots over 300-400 yards, on a consistent basis, then a rifle capable of flatter shooting is a better idea. These rifles come with an additional premium.

Someone prior argued that a heavier slug, further down range has less killing power. I beg to differ. I think even though ballistic tables don't show it, a heavier slug, on a rainbow ballistic arch, even though arriving at less velocity, is MORE fatal, thanks to bullet diameter, and penetration, they a higher energy slug, arriving with more velocity, and lighter bullet weight.

But, I guess that puts me with the 458 win mag, aussie roo killers...and african big game folks.

Would you rather catch a 416 or 458 at 2400, at 600 yards, or a 7mm Mag, with a light bullet?

If you weighed 2000 pounds, and had horns, which would you like to get hit with?
gs

[This message has been edited by Johnny Ringo (edited 02-11-2002).]

I like the analogy to that question from W.Va on what to get for a first rifle for deer at home and maybe a trip out West for elk.

Here the 30-06 is a far better choice than the .257W. Imagine carrying around a LONG action rifle with a 26" bbl up and down those hills when a 30-06 with a 22" bbl would be superior in performace, have much less expensive ammo with a far wider range of bullets and loads.

And the cost. I have never seen a reasonable priced .257 Weatherby.

Then comes the trip out West for elk. You have a .257W and it's really not up to the job.

The Weatherby designs were stolen from PMVF. But in any case they are poor designs. The shoulder shape is of no value but the reamers cost more and the radiused corners don't help with brass flow at all. The throats are freebored which means that gas erosion will be eat the bore up faster. No bench quality rifles would want a freebore. The Weatherby cases are belted. Maybe they don't headspace well like the Winchester and Remington Magnums or the 30-06. So maybe the belted case is needed in the Weatherby series. It's not needed in cases with good shoulders and therefore is dying out.

So there you have it. The Powell Miller Venturied Freebored was promoted by the greatest rifle "Barnum" since Charles Newton. Too bad Roy did not have the ablity Newton did on design. Too bad Newton could not spin a tale like Roy or B.S.

You pick from these two cartridges to face a big bear with at 50 feet. A 30-06 loaded with 200 gr Nosler Partitions or a .257W loaded with what ever Big Stick picks. Once again the 30-06 is the best first choice. But the .257W is a weak competitor. The market place decided that long ago.

If the last 100fps of velocity was that critical to me,I'd not be speaking of the 308 nor the 30-06................

Mike,

You read more into what I said,than I did! It is obvious the 257Wby offers opportunity the '06 does not. It is more flexible,for mid-sized Game.

The 300Ultra offers similar versatility,as compared to the 375. The 375's penchant,isn't whistling high BC projectiles at increased velocity levels,at extended distances. It was conceived and generally used as,a moderate range rifle,for critters that exceed "mid-sized" in classification.

While the 257Wby and '06 are most generally used on the same class of stuff. The design scope of the 300Ultra and 375,are more diverse.

Roy Weatherby advocated the use of the 257Wby for Cape Buffalo. I certainly would not,despite it's prior effective use. Without doubt the 30-06 has been used effectively in that role too. I'd not surmise it to be a select choice in that role either. There are much better cartridges available for the job,but should a wild hair strike your ass,I've zero doubt that a man bent on killing Buffalo with a single poke from both rifles,could choose his shot and have success with either.

My speculation would be,that most could find more duty for their 300Ultra in their regular pursuits,than they could a 375..........

Socrates,

The '06 can't make the speeds of the 7mmRemMag. It isn't of enough capacity. End of story.

Retained energy can come from one of several ways. A decent BC at high initial velocity,or a very high BC at more sedate initial speeds. The best is a very high BC,launched at high initial speeds. Gents playing the long range game,generally incorporate a .308"-.338" diameter projectile of the highest BC available to it and strive to push them as fast as possible,out of large cases and employing long barrels to eek efficiency.

Folks with the spending power,opt the 50BMG. It launches a bullet of twice the weight,at like speeds. It has energy and accuracy,in spades.

As velocities slow downrange,penetration becomes much easier to accomplish,because the reduced velocities don't upset the bullet as much as a high impact velocity. The trick is to keep a bullet together at high impact speeds,to get that same penetration. Slow bullets of conventional design,penetrate very nicely.

The 458Win launching a 450gr X bullet at 2300fps from the muzzle,impacts with 1424fps and 2027ft lbs of energy at 600yds and is -107.58" low with a 250yd zero.

The lowly 7mmRemmag,launching a 140grXLC at 3300fps from the muzzle,impacts with 2315fps and 1667ft lbs of energy at 600yds and is -44.76" low with a 250yd zero.

The 140gr is of enough retained speed,to promote expansion and inflict increased tissue damage larger than it's initial diameter,due to that remaining speed. That bullet is traveling nearly 1000fps faster.

Placement first,bullet selection second,everything will fall nicely into place after that. Cartridge selection makes the melding of those traits easier................

john holmes,

I'm not Posting to impress the masses with entertaining tales of my past long range exploits. Certainly could,but that's not the focal point,of this thread.

I agree,the 308 will get you to the 400yd line in similar fashion to the 30-06,as will the 7-08.

However,when metering performance gains,verse recoil issues,the 257Wby trumps all nicely. Pretty easy to dish out death,with a rifle that is but 2" high at 100yds and yields a 300yd zero. It is but -6.6" low at 400yds and only -17.6" low at 500yds.

The 257Wby recoils less than the 30-06 and is amazingly easy to connect with. Give it a whirl with some trigger time,before you cuss something you've never experienced............

Don,

You know as well as I,that a rifle can be had in any configuration you wish. Hell,even Weatherby makes a lightweight 257Wby!

This has turned from a discussion of mechanics,to semantics. If a man wouldn't be willing to spend $1 to harvest a head of Game,with a single poke,I can't help him.

I've seen numerous Elk fall to the 257Wby,as most my serious Hunting pards have built rifles,so chambered.

Elk aren't known to charge after being hit,I've yet to see one with gnashing fangs,nor long razor sharp claws. Most don't react to the shot in a wild manner and will simply mill around in a slow circle and tip over. The 100gr XLC will exit and is fully adept at smashing bone.

I couldn't surmise where Roy Weatherby got the idea for his case designs,as I never asked him. I don't know the man's name that invented Re-22 either. Nor the guy that invented sex,I like those things just fine,despite knowing minutia associated with the developments.

I don't have the equipment,to weigh the merits of the venturi radii shoulder,in a direct comparison to more traditional designs of differing angle. Might you have data that would suggest the optimal shoulder construction technique,implementing the optimal angle? I'd be very curious to hear your reports,from your exhaustive research in that field.

Brass flow isn't the issue. The venturi theory,is a more effective means of combustion and gas release. I can't comment as I don't have the means,all I can offer is the fact that it works as intended.

Freebore scares lots of folks. Most guys shooting Factory ammo,are incorporating freebore,despite most not having a clue. It is to a lesser degree,than the methodology Weatherby incorporates,but is still there. Freebore is a ballistic's edge,pure and simple.

I've built enough Weatherby chambered rifles on 700's,to know that excellent accuracy can be realized with the freebore incorporated and is coupled with sensational speeds. The 257Wby is the most accurate high intensity belted cartridge I have built. That covers a lot of ground. Any group over 1/2" in those rifles,can be directly attributed to me,the operator. Those are rare exceptions. I've crunched lots of sub .5MOA groups at 500yds and beyond. Accuracy was never an issue,with this cartridge in my experiences.

If you are in Brown Bear Country and opt the 30-06,that is your fault. Make mine the 338Ultra or 375H&H Ackley. If you deem the '06 as the best first choice there,or anywhere else. I'd say you are pleased easily and overlook a multitude of superior choices,through your clouded vision...............

I think you posted earlier that you thought the 257 Wby was a far better killer on deer than the 30/06.

On larger game, should the 300 Ultra be far better than the 375?

The 30 cal has a bullet that is 43% bigger in cross section than the 25 and the 375 has bullet that is 48% bigger than 30 cal

The 30/06 will be about 2750 with 180 grainers and the 375 will be about 2750 with 270 grainers.

The 25 will be about 3300 with 120 grainers and the 300 Ultra will be about 3300 with 180 grainers.

So in both cases the 25 and 300 are shooting bullets of 2/3rds the weight of the 30/06 and 375 and 20% faster than the 30/06 and 375.

If you wanted to drop back in bullet weight to say 100 grains in the 25 then we could go to 150s in the 30/06 and 300 Ultra and 225s in the 375.

The ratios between the 25 and 30/06 will remain the same as for the 300 Ultra and 375.

Thus if the 25 is a far better killer than the 30/06 then on larger game the 300 Ultra should be a far better killer than the 375.

By the way, my own belief is that if we have bullets that expand appropriately in each caliber and when the energy is about the same (as it is in the case of the 2 pairs of calibers under discussion) then the larger heavier bullet will kill better because it has more momentum. The larger cross section will also obviously assist.

Mike

You're grasping at straws again.

I like the 100gr XLC out of the 257Wby at 3700+fps. The 30-06 can't bring anything to the table,to equate that. Simply not in the cards.

You concern yourself with percentages,that are meaningless. The mind set of the masses,is it takes 180grs out of the 30-06,to rate a Big Game cartridge.

If a Deer requires that,and weighs but 1/4 what an Elk does. Wouldn't percentages dictate it would take a 720gr bullet going at '06 speeds to harvest Elk reliably? Nothing could be further from the truth.

I never entertained the notion of a 120gr projectile in any 25cal. That is foolish,as it robs from the performance.

Further,I favor the 165gr XLC at 3500fps for general duty in my Big30 cals. I like that level of performance best and the trajectory associated with it and the extreme performance of that projectile. That 165gr X has a better BC than a 270gr .375"X and is going 750fps faster. Just last Spring I saw that 30cal. combo,full length a rather large Black Bear at 362yds. Starting at his ass,exiting his chest. You can't see the utility,of such a combo?

I very much like the 235XLC,out of my 375Ackley's. Their BC is .400 and that is lesser than the .257" 100gr(BC.420). I've been trying non-stop,to get some of the new 260gr BT's enroute to my doorstep. So far no luck,all are sold out.

If you believe the 375H&H to be a better long range cartridge than a 300Ultra,that is an interesting spin,but I couldn't agree.

Do I think the fast 30's are a better killer of medium Game than the 375? Without doubt. I've Hunted the various 375's hard(375H&H,375H&H Ackley and 378Wby) and used them on Deer quite a bit,when in Brown Bear Country. Certainly they do the job,but there is nothing dramatic about it,because most bullets in that diameter are of rugged construction(235gr Speer a noteable exception). They hit,whistle through,disrupt little in the way of tissue and exit. Not much fanfare there. Like Elmer always said,"You can eat them right up to the hole".

You like bigger diameters,at lesser speeds,for general purpose. I have and use cartridges of that ilk,but don't find them the most beneficial,nor certainly "best".

Again,illustrate to me,where the 338Ultra 210XLC combo at 3400fps is "lacking". I'll take great speeds,flat trajectories and superb bullet construction over more traditional offerings. That combo does it all.........

Even the lowly 45 acp 230 grain hardball has serious penetration, launched at very low velocity, due to bullet weight.

That said, the best argument for not buying a 30-06 is the 308.

What I look for in a cartridge is a velocity of maximum 2900 fps, with a large diameter bullet, and, a case capacity to bore ratio that maximizes powder efficency.

In other words, the real king of powder ratio to caliber is the 308. It obtains similar bullet speeds, with less powder, then the 30-06. It does, however, sacrifices the magnum potential you have with a 30-06.

Yes, you can load 110-130 grain bullets in 06 to 3200-3300 fps. Why would you want to?
Wear out your barrel, and say you can?
Flat, long range round for varmits?

My philosophy in rifle, and pistol, is to limit your pressure to a sort of magic point where you get medium to high velocity, with a good size bullet, without the excessive recoil super high pressure rounds create, and the quick errosion that occurs with magnum velocities.

If you want more down range power, increase the caliber of the bullet, and weight, and go to a cartridge design that gives you that
speed, without the high pressure, recoil, barrel errosion, and, one you are much more likely to fire all the time.

I'm not going to argue the validity of such overbore cartridges as the 300 magnum, etc.

For people that like em, they have a place.

But, again, I just don't like that sort of rifle.

As you point out, there are other options.

You can step up to a 375, with a cast bullet, at 2400 fps, it's going to be adequate for all game in North America, and would kill anything on the planet, except whales,with a proper shot placement(read buffalo). And, it's not like real hunting bullets, at lighter weights aren't around, if the high velocity bug gets you. Use a GS
HV and you get great killing power, and great range, at high velocity.
Much cheaper to feed, course it doesn't look as impressive on the ballistic tables.

And, I suspect this combination to be very accurate.

The 458 win mag is sort of weird. It's seems to be underbore, incapable of creating the wide variety of bullet velocities that are desired out of really great calibers.

There aren't bullets for 458 that allow over 2400 fps, and if you make your own, then the question is, are they going to hold together if you want to push one really fast?

None the less, 335 grain slugs out of a pistol, at 45 caliber, at over 600 yards, arrive with devastating force, if not impressive fps of energy. The linebaugh guys
shot at a little house at 600 yards, with pistols, and with the rainbow trajectories, the bullets still arrived with steel penetration force.

One of the advantages of Keith style, or LBT style bullets, is that even though they don't give you ballistic table wet dreams, when they arrive, they don't blow up, or pencil. They punch a very large, 45 caliber hole through whatever they hit, in a very straight line, with little deviation from intended target line.

At low velocities, like 1500, a 345 grain slug has penetrated a consistent 38-40 inches of buffalo. Wonder if Matchkings, at the same range, could claim the same results?

Don't bother answering that one, because I KNOW they can't. They are more likely to blow up on bone, and, they are not going to penetrate as much, because they are going to open up. The buffalo isn't going to give a damn that you hit him with an ultra magnum and matchking bullet, with fantastic bullet statistics, worked out on your ultra cool computer. He is going to be pissed off, and kill you. I suspect the same maybe true of bears.

Anyway, my point is a real philosophical difference. At a certain point, the increased pressures, and magnum velocities, and gun wear, aren't worth the extra few fps you get.

Therefore, when that isn't enough gun, move up to a bigger caliber, more killing power, and less pressure and velocity.
PLus, they are easier to hit with, due to lack of recoil.
I like the 375 and 416 because they put out high velocity, with relatively low pressure.
Likewise the 30-06. However, if you follow my reasoning, the 308 is a better choice then the 30-06, since it does almost everything the 30-06 does, but with less recoil, and about 20% less powder for the same velocity, and the same bullets.

The only problem with 308 is with heavier bullets, but again, for most animals, the 220 grain, or 200 grain matchkings, even at lower velocities, out of the 308, are going to be sufficent for 99% of game, in North America, and, adequate for most reasonable target ranges.

All of the arguments about 30-06, government cheap ammunition, great avalibility of cheap rifles, and components, now apply perhaps more to the 308 then the 30-06.

So, for me, I guess the 308 is the better of the two, at this time, not 25 years ago, when I bought my Interarms Mark X for a song.

I also think the real, best, long range cartridge, is the 50 BMG. At the end of the day, bullet weight, and diameter, are going to kill whatever you want to hit, and, I like the max velocity of 2900 fps, with a 750 grain boat tail bullet, with the best BC
of any shoulder fired rifle I know of.

Used at close range, it would also punch a large enough hole in buff, or elephant, to let the air out of them quickly, much like any existing solid...

gs

I've had five 25-06's and a 25-06Ackley,plus there are two 25-284's in the closet. The 257Wby is a whole 'nuther class of cartridge...............

I said you can use whatever bullet weight you like. The comparison between the calibers will remain the same.

I think you also mentioned on an earlier post that ballistics was simply physics.

Also, I am trying eliminate what bullet construction is available or is not available, as that can change tomorrow. I also said to assume bullets in either caliber give apprpriate expansion.

As to the 338Ultra 210XLC combo at 3400fps if we kept the comparison the same as the 25 Wby and 30/06 then we would have a .405 bullet that weighed 315 grains and would have a velocity of about 2800 f/s.

That would be close to a 416 Remington with a 315 grain bullet.

You are not the first one (and you won't be tha last one ) to say that the 257 Wby and similar isa far better killer than the 30/06.

However, when the calibers are scaled up, the same opinion no longer seems to be held.

Although the comparison is more extreme I can tell you that a 400 grain speer Flat Point at 2100 from a 458 kills pigs like a 300 Win can't even begin to approach.

Again, in this case we have similar energy at impact and of course a 458 bullet that opens very quickly.

Mike

You can also load a 375 with a 255 or similar bullet, to 2500-2600 out of a 21 inch barrel. What would those same loads do in a 25-27 inch barrel?

While they don't look as sexy, fps wise,
I know which one I would rather be shooting...

Wonder what the chances of bullet deflection are compared to the lighter calibers?

If you want more penetration, and killing power, go up in caliber, and bullet weight,
and don't go for the overbore, high pressure stuff...

gs