We'll never know the exact story, but the arguments presented here are all good ones to consider for an attorney from one side or the other. We shall have to wait to see if the county Prosecuter brings any charges. Should be interesting.

I am amazed that the first assumption here is a cover up...

I am amazed at the suggestion that the officer was supposed to "back off"

I am amazed that people think private land has anything to do with this

If you all want some interesting reading...why don't you read the U.S. supreme court case that governs use force by peace officers...it is Graham v. Connor here is the key points are:

1) reasonable force is based on what a reasonable officer would do

2) based on the objective facts available to the officer without regard to the officers underlying motivation

3) any determination of unreasonable force The calculus of reasonableness must embody an allowance for the fact that officers are often forced to make split-second judgments -- in circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving -- about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation.

quote:

Originally posted by talentrec:
I've never quite understood how so many "sportsmen" have such an issue with game wardens. To me, following the law while hunting is just another aspect of fair chase. If you're not breaking the law, you really don't have anything to worry about.

If you break the law and get caught it's your own fault. You made a decision, you deal with it. The wardens job is to enforce the law, if they didn't do that, there wouldn't be much point in having them.

Pete

+1

+1000

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
I've known some gamewardens that are great and honorable men, brave and dedicated, and temperate. I've known others that are plagued with the fault of envy and only became game wardens because they don't want you shooting the animals that they want to shoot themselves. In other words they want it all for themselves and resent other hunters.
Now, what kind of a game warden this guy is must be known by the locals. If he is an asshole he didn't become one overnight. His reputation is what will tell you if he is telling the truth.

You are absolutely right.

As long as he was wearing fashionflage and using a Thompson Center, I find it was justified.

quote:

Originally posted by DuggaBoye:

NOT WHEN I WAS TAUGHT.
We were taught to evaluate the threat.
Protect ourselves and fire if ABSOLUTELY necessary.

I have already stated this is sad no matter which way the investigation turns.

But I do feel as many here apparently do, the current mood in this country seems to be to shoot first and figure out the situation later.

Training has evolved so much since the no-knock search warrant became the law of the land. Plus the combination of increased (real and perceived) violence against officers has changed the rules of engagement, especially along the border where poaching and the drug-trade have combined in an unholy alliance. Officers, be they game wardens or street cops just don't have the luxuries of assumption they had even 10 years ago and are trained accordingly.

I am in law enforcement but not a GW. This will take a book to explain so I will be brief.

First, the police will not release anymore than they did until the investigation is over. I find it funny that everytime there is a shooting or other incident, everyone cries cover up. You know how hard it is to cover up. A lot harder then just telling the truth. I can tell you the police want to tell everyone what they know happened. But it is unfair to the investigation.

I hope to god that no one ever gets put in that situation but to say the GW should have backed off is ludicrous. Come back later. LOL!! By saying that he should come back later is like this: I stop you for speeding and you pull a gun on me, I am suppose to let you go and let you calm down then give you the ticket??? He took an oath like every other law enforcement officer takes to uphold the law and defend the consitution. I cannot speak for his training but most LE officers are trained to defuse the situation and lethal force is the very last alternative. When he used lethal force, in his mind, he was out of options and to stop what was going on he used it. I can read a little into this and tell the officer did exactly this, he fired one shot. LE is trained to stop the threat, not kill. If it was personal vendetta for something I think more shots would have been fired.

I was not there and I don't know if the officer was right or wrong. I am not defending his actions because again I was not there. If he was wrong, he will be prosecuted. So the keyboard commandos can sit back and say it was BS, a cover up, I would have ran away, whatever. But unless you have been in a simular situation, I would suggest you wait for investigation to finish before you pass judgement.

I will wait and if the officer was wrong then he will get his consequences, if he was right then he did his job. No one deserves to die over probably what started our as a misdemeanor, I feel bad for everyone involved.

On another note and this is getting off topic but,

Law Enforcement in the West is much different than the Midwest and Eastern US. Anyone that has been in law enforcement long can tell you.

It is hard to compare but the training is different and the mentality is different.

The way business is done is much different.

I am not saying they are unethical but ethics and integrity are not as emphasized as highly in the East. I know this from teaching other officers and talking to other instructors who travel the US constantly and the world.

What does this have to with the topic, nothing really other than the training and mentality is different.

We don't know what happened, a tree stand isn't ones home and there are a lot of things that could have happened.

In my short tenure as a police officer I arrested quite a few people. But thankfully I never had to shoot anyone, though the stick got used a bit and pepper spray got used a lot. I quit the police as I always felt like I was missing out on a lot not finishing my military career. That was almost 10 years ago. I don't regret it, and I think being a cop is a really tough job. Like all really tough jobs it is easy to loose sight of what the mission is, and maybe that was the case.

If a man wearing a uniform came into my house and I wasn't doing anything wrong. Then he started pointing a gun at me he would die, or I would. I recently got someone thrown out of the military for pointing a service rifle at one of my sailors. My commander felt the same way about it as I did. It is a sin I consider to be similar to spitting on someone, excepting your threatening their life.

If I was doing something wrong and a police officer raided my house, I would surrender as I see no reason to kill someone for doing their job. I have never been afraid of law enforcement, my father was a police officer and then a federal agent and we were tought as kids that for the most part cops are your friend. I still think this is predominantly true, though I think there is a huge difference between cops today and cops 20 years ago.

This wasn't his house, this wasn an open field, and we all know that game wardens have way too much lenniancy with the law on their side.

It is very sad that this happened. I think we can all agree on that.

And I agree with Earl. I worked in Alaska, and when I was hired about 10 longstanding police officers from all over the country tried out for the same jobs I tried out for.

Every single one of them that was from the South or North East had done things as a police officer that would not permissable in the West.

They ended up hiring 3 ex-military guys like me, and 5 or 6 cops from Idaho, Wyoming, California, and Washington state. The rest had just done too many things (this came out during the lie detector section) that were not permissable for western cops).

I was reserve police officer (actually a deputy sheriff) in CA for twenty years.

I received what is a Level 1 POST (Peace Officer Standards and Training at that time mid 1980s a reserve office in CA was required to have 525 hours or about 13 weeks of training.

To let you know how serious CA takes peace officer training the current academy is 6 mos long and reserve officers have to attend the same academy.

Now that we have all qualified ourselves and our opinions, the fact still remains, no one but the two people involved in the shooting knows just exactly what happened and one of them definitely is not going to be relating his side of the story.

It don't matter if the shooting took place outside Langtry Texas, Two Dot Montana, Ticonderoga New York, Escanaba Michigan, or West Palm Beach Florida.

A confrontation between two individuals, one a Game Warden, the other a man in his 70's took place, and one of them died.

What would everyone's reaction have been, were it the Game Warden that had died?????????

There are a lot of dead law enforcement officers because they chose to "do their job" instead of backing off and waiting for back up.

I guess dying in the line of duty is honorable to some, but since some situations could have alternative outcomes, as in this case, the officer simply got lucky he pulled his trigger first if the story is as he reports it.

I guess I'm assuming too much. As I see it, I don't understand why the officer couldn't have just walked off and written the hunter a citation for hunting over bait, as alleged, put it on his truck and told the guy to have a nice day.

And this is not like pulling someone over for speeding and getting a gun pulled on you. You already caught someone violating the law and having a gun pulled is not the same as someone saying, "if I get down from this tree, I'm going to shoot/kill you." There's time to think and make some decsions here, in addition to taking cover behind trees.

You have to make a snap decision in the former scenario and I'd be all for you gunning down the gunman. Seems all you can do here is run behind the car and pray your vest works.

Situations like these should be looked at on a case by case situation. I will respectfully disagree with those of you in law enforcement and stand by my earlier post in that the warden could have chosen to do something, even move out of shotgun range, and call for back up, regardless of whether or not he is vindicated.

ON THE OTHER HAND...!!!!! Once a threat is made, such as what is alleged here, I suppose there is no backing off. I ran this by a few officer friends of mine, including a game warden here in Ohio. All claimed that they'd back away and write a citation and call for back up.

Everybody is agreement that none of us were there...and nobody will know what happened...

Some thing for everyone to ponder is...so just how much do you have when the muzzle of the turkey hunter's shotgun starts to come up or in your direction...

Its really nice to say "back off" and de-escalate...assuming there was time

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Some thing for everyone to ponder is...so just how much do you have when the muzzle of the turkey hunter's shotgun starts to come up or in your direction...

Its really nice to say "back off" and de-escalate...assuming there was time

Mike I am specifically going by the alleged story, or rumor, in that the hunter was in the stand and said, "if I get down out of this tree, I will kill you."

In that respect, I still believe a reasonable move would be to back up, literally, and call for more officers.

If in fact, there was no threat until the hunter was out of the tree and approached the GW, aiming his direction, well, that's a lot different. I don't think anyone on earth would have shot faster than me.

I guess the idea of kneecapping this guy never occurred either...

Rich
Buff Killer

Let's just all say that the GW was Guilty as Hell.

Now that is out of the way, what would be everyone's song if it was the 70 year old that was still alive and the GW dead, would that matter???

Sorry to be a jerk about this, but as stated earlier, there are only 2 people that know the real story and one of them is dead.

As I Asked Before, What Would Everyone's Opinion Be If It Was The GW That Was Dead, And Not The 70 Year Old???????

How Many Would Be Claiming That The 70 Year Old Was At Fault??????

Doc, you state that your LEO friends including a GW said that they would have backed off, how can they state that when they do not know the circumstances?

They are making an assumption that they could reason with this old guy.

I am not defending the GW, but I ain't saying that he was in the wrong either.

As others have said, this is a terrible occurence, but many seem to believe that the GW is totally at fault.

How many are going to Man Up and admit they are'were wrong if the GW is vindicated in the matter?

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Some thing for everyone to ponder is...so just how much do you have when the muzzle of the turkey hunter's shotgun starts to come up or in your direction...

Its really nice to say "back off" and de-escalate...assuming there was time

Mike I am specifically going by the alleged story, or rumor, in that the hunter was in the stand and said, "if I get down out of this tree, I will kill you."

In that respect, I still believe a reasonable move would be to back up, literally, and call for more officers.

If in fact, there was no threat until the hunter was out of the tree and approached the GW, aiming his direction, well, that's a lot different. I don't think anyone on earth would have shot faster than me.

I concur!

quote:

Posted 18 April 2009 02:52
I guess the idea of kneecapping this guy never occurred either...

Rich

And a busted knee keeps the shotgun from being a threat how?

quote:

And a busted knee keeps the shotgun from being a threat how?

Good Point, and why or how would getting down out of the tree prevented the person in question from shooting????

If he could shoot a turkey from the tree why couldn't he do the same to a GW.

Think about it people, use some sense.

If I am up in a tree and have the drop on you with a loaded shotgun, in your wildest dreams do you think I am gonna climb down and get level with you, BULL SHIT.

You would be as dead as the Gobbler or whatever it was I was after.

Watching this is fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
Watching this is fun.

Lots of armchair 'expert investigators' here .Sit back and wait for the investigation to be completed . Odocoileus virgianus couesii I know a bit about them I took a How to Glass For Trophy Animals from az guide Duwane Adams but I graduated from the univ of az in wildlfe mgt.37 years interviewing suspects & writing probation reports

More Details

In a statement released early Monday morning, the North Carolina State Wildlife Resources Commission reported that 12-year veteran wildlife officer Mark Minton was acting in self-defense when he shot and killed a hunter Saturday morning in the Cane Creek area of Wilkes County.

Preliminary reports from the commission state that an armed confrontation took place while Minton was patrolling on Cane Creek Road at shortly after 7 a.m., encountered 76-year-old Clyde Coffey of Lenoir. The confrontation resulted in Minton shooting Coffey once, mortally wounding him.

A law enforcement official speaking on condition of anonymity said, "During his patrol Minton discovered Coffey allegedly hunting turkey from a tree stand and baiting the birds underneath it, both illegal during Spring Turkey Season. Minton ordered Coffey to exit the tree to which the hunter allegedly responded that if he came down he would shoot Minton."

Coffey reportedly exited the tree stand and began to advance on the officer, continuing to threaten him with his weapon as Minton repeatedly ordered him to stop. At some point Minton found himself unable to retreat any further and fired on Coffey.

In a statement to the press NCWRC officer Capt. Rusty Hunter said, "There is no evidence to suggest the officer confused the hunter with an animal. It appears, from all information gathered, the officer was protecting himself."

Saturday was the first day of Spring Turkey Season in the state and Minton was on patrol in the area checking for hunting violations when he entered property owned by Coffey's family, where the incident took place. Area residents listening to their police scanners reported hearing Minton's urgent calls for backup and medical assistance for Coffey following the shooting.

Administrative Captain M. Cardwell of the Wilkes County Sheriff's Department said that the call for assistance from Minton "came in at 7:35 a.m." that a shooting had taken place and that assistance and medical first responders were needed on scene. According to Cardwell, Wilkes County Deputies were first to arrive on the scene where they discovered Coffey dead from a single gunshot. Cardwell would not disclose any specifics about the scene deferring to the Wilkes County District Attorney's Office. Attempts to obtain comment from the WCDA as of yet have been unsuccessful.

WCSD remained on scene until around noon, when the incident scene and investigation was taken over by the State Bureau of Investigation, (required when a state officer is involved in an on-duty shooting).

The investigation of the incident remains in the hands of the SBI.

Jennifer Canada of the North Carolina Department of Justice confirmed that the incident had taken place and that it was under investigation by the SBI, but declined to offer any additional information saying, "it is our policy not to comment on ongoing investigations.".

http://www.mountaintimes.com/m...009/0416/shoots.php3

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
As I Asked Before, What Would Everyone's Opinion Be If It Was The GW That Was Dead, And Not The 70 Year Old???????

it is the gw responsibility to control the situation, even if it means temporarily leaving. If it was the other way around, the hunter should fry.

quote:

Doc, you state that your LEO friends including a GW said that they would have backed off, how can they state that when they do not know the circumstances?

They knew the circumstances as written and just as all of us know them, and still formed a unanimous position. That is why I related to them by starting out with "As we know it, this is what happened..."

quote:

How many are going to Man Up and admit they are'were wrong if the GW is vindicated in the matter?

It's not about being a man if the game warden is vindicated as the conclusions of the investigation will never be accurate with the "other side of the story" never to be told. That's a fact. If he is vindicated, then my response is, well, he got lucky. But no one will ever know the truth.

I'm not for the hunter, don't get me wrong. But, as I see it, this could have been handled very differently where no one got shot. I won't be convinced otherwise.

There has been a few good responses here, but for the most part you guys are a bunch of low life fucking shitbags. Enough said. Some of the crap spewed here is so sad that I am ashamed to consider myself one who has posted so much on this forum. I know nothing about what happened, but when a warden/cop/deputy/trooper shoots a guy, wait till the full story is out before pointing fingers. Get the full story boys, fair and balanced, before making such stupid remakrs.

Doc,

I gotta say your opinion amazes me...

You weren't there and you admit that the other side of the story can never be told...

but you are convinced and can't be convinced otherwise that it should have been handled differently.

That is one impressive piece of logic.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
I guess I'm assuming too much. As I see it, I don't understand why the officer couldn't have just walked off and written the hunter a citation for hunting over bait, as alleged, put it on his truck and told the guy to have a nice day.

I agree with Doc. Shouldn't a 76 year old hunting on his own property be given some slack? Perhaps a warning? At least here in PA, youthful hunters, senior citizens, and handicapped hunters get special dispensation. Perhaps ol' Clyde was belligerent. Need he die for that shortcoming? But I can certainly visualize a gung-ho Minton not backing down in any confrontation, cause the LAW was on his side.

quote:

A law enforcement official speaking on condition of anonymity said...

That's just crap! I smell coverup. There, I said it. Flame away. Denying an old man his turkey, even if hunted by illegal means, shouldn't cost him his life.

I wonder if they'll give officer Mark Minton a medal or a chest to pin it on?

quote:

Originally posted by MrHawg:
There has been a few good responses here, but for the most part you guys are a bunch of low life fucking shitbags. Enough said. Some of the crap spewed here is so sad that I am ashamed to consider myself one who has posted so much on this forum. I know nothing about what happened, but when a warden/cop/deputy/trooper shoots a guy, wait till the full story is out before pointing fingers. Get the full story boys, fair and balanced, before making such stupid remakrs.

Talk about spewing crap, you just won the prize.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
Doc,

I gotta say your opinion amazes me...

You weren't there and you admit that the other side of the story can never be told...

but you are convinced and can't be convinced otherwise that it should have been handled differently.

That is one impressive piece of logic.

Mike, respectfully, reread my posts. My opinion is based on the story AS WE KNOW IT. My opinion could be changed if we had 2 sides to the story.

It is simple....if the gw was threatened while the hunter was in the tree, and he specifically stated, "if I get down from this tree, I will kill you" then the gw could have made some distance and called for backup.

Seems logical to me.

As I have posted, if the scenario happens to be as we know it, then yes, I stand by my statement and cannot be convinced that an alternative action could not have been taken.

Bad story.

As some said, there is only two people who know the whole story, and one is dead.

There is one fact above all others that has not changed, no matter what any one believes or does not believe.

This was a tragic incident for all involved, regardless of how things actually went down.

A Father/GrandFather possibly Great Grand Father was eaken from his family and a 12 year veteran LEO was the person that did it.

No matter how it happened or how it turns out, both parties at the scene lost something.

One can not recover anything because he is dead.

The other may not recover anything because of the choice he made in those few minutes.

quote:

Originally posted by MrHawg:
I know nothing about what happened, but when a warden/cop/deputy/trooper shoots a guy, wait till the full story is out before pointing fingers.

Well, that's a problem. No one will ever know the "full story," only the GW point of view. And, according to the warden, he must not have felt really threatened until the old grouchy hunter was on the ground, otherwise, he would have shot him while he was still in the tree.

So, if the picture has been painted accurately by the warden, then I still think he made the wrong choice. The old hunter could still be alive with a citation for illegal hunting placed on his vehicle and the warden could have called in the situation right there, out of shotgun range.

I have the highest respect for ethical law enforcement officers and I empathize with tough decision making, but I don't see this as a tough decision. The hunter, according to this warden, was still in the tree for crying out loud. What's the big deal about backing away, literally?

sad story all the way around....
somewhere there are some folks mourning the loss of a family member.
grumpy or not
nobody is gonna win,nobody is gonna be right
fight or flight works different to diferent
folks,
damn sure wasn't worth being right
or a damned ole' turkey.

quote:

Originally posted by ncboman:
More Details


Minton ordered Coffey to exit the tree to which the hunter allegedly responded that if he came down he would shoot Minton."

Coffey reportedly exited the tree stand and began to advance on the officer, continuing to threaten him with his weapon as Minton repeatedly ordered him to stop. At some point Minton found himself unable to retreat any further and fired on Coffey.

If the officer is telling the truth, seems he did everything he could to avoid the outcome. As with the scenario stated, it should be very easy to investigate and verify. As for my opinion, the officer should do everything in his power to de-escalate the situation and avoid violent confrontation, but once someone with a gun threatens to kill you that becomes a lot more difficult-and that doesn't change because the person is an old poop a woman or a kid with a gun.

A lot of elderly farm owners are very possesive of their property and resent a warden trespassing on their farm. They feel that the arden shouldn't be allowed to come on their property just because they claim probable cause(which some use to go where they want) Our new agent has entered several houses without knocking and tells the people he will go where he pleases. We had an agent for 30 years that would have arrested his Mother if she violated the law but he respected and understood the local people. He would have never put himself in the position to haft to shoot an old man hunting on his own farm.

Hawkeye47

Forget about the idea that the GW might have backed down and defused the situation....that's speculation and may or may not be good policy from a LE perspective. We could argue that all day.

Something else about this story just doesn't jive for me. I am a bit surprised that no one has mentioned the facts relating to how long it must have taken a 76 year old man to climb down from his treestand while also carrying his shotgun. I don't know too many nimble 76 year olds...especially at 7:30 AM and with their balance thrown off on a ladder by a shotgun. Hell, the guy might have needed to be helped down by the officer for all we know. Are you telling me that the officer stood there for what must have been a good few minutes as old Clyde climbed down (awkwardly, since he is carrying his shotgun) and didn't make ANY attempt to disarm the crotchety bugger who just allegedly threatened him with his life? What...they expect us to believe that he waited until the "threatening" guy got down with the shotgun BEFORE telling him to put it down? I'm sorry, if he was that unthreatened by old Clyde, I am not at all certain that the GW would have got the drop on the determined old bugger. The fact that the old man is dead under these odd circumstances makes me question the official story entirely and actually specifically question that such a statement as "I'm gonna kill you" was ever made in this incident. IMO this GW got jumpy after gramps got down from his stand, fired as tensions escalated, and then realized he may have screwed up.

quote:

Originally posted by tendrams:
Forget about the idea that the GW might have backed down and defused the situation....that's speculation and may or may not be good policy from a LE perspective. We could argue that all day.

Something else about this story just doesn't jive for me. I am a bit surprised that no one has mentioned the facts relating to how long it must have taken a 76 year old man to climb down from his treestand while also carrying his shotgun. I don't know too many nimble 76 year olds...especially at 7:30 AM and with their balance thrown off on a ladder by a shotgun. Hell, the guy might have needed to be helped down by the officer for all we know. Are you telling me that the officer stood there for what must have been a good few minutes as old Clyde climbed down (awkwardly, since he is carrying his shotgun) and didn't make ANY attempt to disarm the crotchety bugger who just allegedly threatened him with his life? What...they expect us to believe that he waited until the "threatening" guy got down with the shotgun BEFORE telling him to put it down? I'm sorry, if he was that unthreatened by old Clyde, I am not at all certain that the GW would have got the drop on the determined old bugger. The fact that the old man is dead under these odd circumstances makes me question the official story entirely and actually specifically question that such a statement as "I'm gonna kill you" was ever made in this incident. IMO this GW got jumpy after gramps got down from his stand, fired as tensions escalated, and then realized he may have screwed up.

While your opinion is plausible, it is also nothing more than speculation that could be argued all day as well.

There are dozen mistakes this GW could have made and there are a dozen things the older hunter could have done to justify getting shot.

I am just amazed at the majority of the bias that the GW was wrong.


Of course nobody has considered what is proper etiquette when they are apporahced by a LEO when they are armed and in the field which is unload their firearm, open their action, put their rifle or shotgun down, and step away from it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:
I am just amazed at the majority of the bias that the GW was wrong.

I feel the GW is wrong because he killed someone and from what we know, it could have easily been avoided. Sorry to amaze you but we are talking about a dead hunter here. Of course I think the GW was wrong if what we've read is really what happened. Maybe once the GW was threatened while the hunter was in the tree, he felt like "flexing his muscles" and wanted the hunter to know who's boss. Maybe not. Regardless, a fatal shooting can easily be avoided in a situation like this story alleges. That's just the way I feel about it.