The GW is not asking anyone to "give up their rights" he's only trying to make him/her and the hunter as safe a possible. I don't think of a GW securing a firearm as anything other than a officer safety issue. Most cops I know are card carrying NRA members or at the very least support the RTKBA. In Texas a Peace Officer may "disarm" a CCL holder during their contact and I don't see much difference.

It seems to me as if the LEO could have disengaged fairly easily until backup arrived. Why not commit some extra time to minimize the risk of having something spiral out of control.

1. Cranky old man in tree
2. Most likely turkey load in shotgun

Doesn't strike me as a particularily dangerous situation.

Worst case scenario he has to walk 100 yards in front of the guy not to be injured. And any reasonably fit LEO can outwalk an old man.

He chose a more beligerent approach to law enforcement and got to shoot an old man for it.

Young girls can kill you just as dead as old men.

No way to know what was in the shotgun. (just because I'm dove hunting doesn't mean I don't have some buckshot or slugs in another pocket)

Not knowing the lay of the land, 100yds may have been too far to keep an eye on someone. Not charging into things is one thing, backing too far off can make for it's own tactical disadvantages (being flanked, bad guys calling for help)

I've seen "old men" in better shape than alot of peace officers I work with. Plus you're wearing how much gear???Vest, handgun, extra mags, handcuffs, etc. VS a hunter w/a long gun and that's about it.

Plus, I'm not going to stand 100yds out from anyone and let them shoot "turkey loads" or anything else at me.

I had a hunter this year kill a turkey gobbler at 76 steps with a shotgun and number 5 turkey loads.

I have a feeling that same load shot into a human face, while maybe not killing the person out right, will give the shooter sufficient time to close the range and fire a better placed shot, WITHOUT much resistance from the person that was shot.

Funny, if it was Dick Cheney with a shotgun, everyone feels shotguns with pheasant loads are capable of killing instantly and how he should be thrown in jail for life. Now, a few years later. a LEO has to be Neo from Matrix and dodge shot charges because they are only turkey loads.

Even funnier, those that are best fit for passing judgement are those that weren't there nor had any access to evidence.

And the better yet, a LEO has less of a right to go home at the end of the day because they wrote someone a ticket for doing something stupid years ago.

And the best yet, and this part is what make jury trials golden, even though he was shooting at you, you should have known you weren't going to be killed, maybe lost an eye, a kidney, a testicle, etc., and you should have just wounded the shooter. Laws vary by state, but here in CA, with the strictest use of force doctrine west of the Mississippi, deadly force is authorized to prevent yours or someone else's death OR SERIOUS INJURY.

No where is deadly force authorized authorized because someone is being an a-hole. So if the LEO is an a-hole, and you start blasting, you can be killed and no recourse for your family. If the LEO is an a-hole, and you document it, and you mount a complaint, and disciplinary action ensued, our turkey hunter would be hunting next year.

And no, there is no justification of LEOs who abuse power, and they should be prosecuted. But this becomes harder to do because people often complain just because they got popped. Usually these cases don't get followed up on because the complainants complain about every encounter with every officer.

Not that this has any relevancy to this case, but game wardens get a majority of information from tips. And most people they "go after" are repeat offenders.

In the end, no matter how this turns out, two families are paying the price. One side is missing there beloved father, grandfather, and friend. The other side has to deal with the trauma, the guilt, the shame, PTSD, different relationships with the community. I am willing to bet that few people have had to deal with this, and hopefully fewer will have too. Prayers to both families.

John

Trying to knee cap a man with a shotgun, not to smart!!
Been a few years now, there were a couple of guys that owned cottages on one of our Finger Lakes. They got fussin over a few inches on the property line. Over time this got way otta hand.
Police were called a number of times.
I knew one of the fellows, beleive me his elevator did not go to the top floor, guess his neighbor was his equal. Then there was this particular NY State Trooper that had a bit of a reputation for having a heavy hand.
Anyway, one Sat afternoon the trooper ends up in the one cottage (this is kinda a gray area, it was never fully explained why he was there) and there is a confrotation with neither backing down. As the story unfolds, the owner was reaching for his shotgun and the trooper shot him in each leg. When this failed to bring him down, he tried a killing shot to the chest. This third round failed to penetrate, just followed bone around under the skin. I seen the pics of all three hits. Even after taking the three shots the owner fired his shotgun killing the trooper.
Now wo have only one surviver to tell the tale. He was convicted of course and sent to Attica. Now to further add to the mystery, in ten years he was free on parole.
You be the judge.

Phil

Would it be considered "out of place" if I engage in this discussion for a few moments? I'm Canadian, and make no apologies for that, but have many American friends... my wife being one and my paternal grandmother was American.

I've read through this entire debate and the awful reality is it will never have a happy ending, no matter who is, or was, at fault. I think everyone's agreed on that. But, as an outsider, may I give a neutral observation on all that I've read here?

First off, I'm 73.5 years of age. And a hunter for over a half century. I kind of laugh at some of the remarks about "old guys" over 70,etc, being "nasty old men", or something along those lines. Let me say that as to my physical condition, I'm in a LOT better shape than most 50 year old men who sit all day behind a desk or a wheel of an auto! I know that from hunting with some forty and fifty year olds! But the comment that implies that men in their seventies are grumpy, grouchy, angry old men is like saying that because I know a few twenty-something year-olds who steal, lie and cheat that ALL twenty-year olds are like that! Many seventy plus year old men AND women are fun loving, cheerful and giving people.

I'm a writer of hunting and handloading manuals, and I love the outdoors. But also, I've been a pastor for over a half-century. Still am. My wife is a professional counsellor and a daughter is also. (My wife and I celebrated our 52nd this past sunday.) My youngest son - 44 years old - is a chaplain to a city police force in Western Canada. I have a close friend who is a Conservation Officer (Game Warden) who is retiring at the end of October, so what I say next is not based on prejudice, pretext or speculation.

In my experience as pastor I've had to step into marriages and family feuds to try to salvage the situation, and my wife and daughter have counselled hundreds where usually family tensions were involved. My son, the chaplain, confirms that family disputes involving husband and wife are the most difficult and dangerous for his officers. Why? Because, usually, even though they were combatants BEFORE the police arrived, after the police arrive they BOTH turn on him/her!

In other words, to give the short version: NO ONE is completely INNOCENT! There are two sides to every story, and since we're all guilty in one way or another, as the GOOD BOOK says "Let him/her who is without sin throw the first stone".

Will justice prevail? We can only hope and pray that it will! Just my take on it.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
thank you for that very valuable post of yours! It puts many things into perspective, not only regarding that unfortunate incident.

458Only, Many Thanks, because you hit the nail as squarely as it can be hit, There Will Be NO Happy Outcome, No Matter Who Was At Fault.

Thanks for your insight.

Bob:
Great post and congratulations on 52 years as well. Hope you & yours has another fine 52 years. Bear in Fairbanks

Thanks Bear.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
It seems to me as if the LEO could have disengaged fairly easily until backup arrived. Why not commit some extra time to minimize the risk of having something spiral out of control.

1. Cranky old man in tree
2. Most likely turkey load in shotgun

Doesn't strike me as a particularily dangerous situation.

Worst case scenario he has to walk 100 yards in front of the guy not to be injured. And any reasonably fit LEO can outwalk an old man.

He chose a more beligerent approach to law enforcement and got to shoot an old man for it.

Exactly what I've been saying from the outset. Crazyconsultant however seems to think that the GW's history of hunter harassment is irrelevant.....I do not. You want rogue, POS wardens roaming your woods then good for you......I do not. I'm all about patterns of behavior and this warden demonstrated by his history that he doesn't belong in ANY position of power.

Will we ever know how it went down? No.....but chances are the old man would be alive if a different warden attended to the situation......and that says a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
It seems to me as if the LEO could have disengaged fairly easily until backup arrived. Why not commit some extra time to minimize the risk of having something spiral out of control.

1. Cranky old man in tree
2. Most likely turkey load in shotgun

Doesn't strike me as a particularily dangerous situation.

Worst case scenario he has to walk 100 yards in front of the guy not to be injured. And any reasonably fit LEO can outwalk an old man.

He chose a more beligerent approach to law enforcement and got to shoot an old man for it.

Exactly what I've been saying from the outset. Crazyconsultant however seems to think that the GW's history of hunter harassment is irrelevant.....I do not. You want rogue, POS wardens roaming your woods then good for you......I do not. I'm all about patterns of behavior and this warden demonstrated by his history that he doesn't belong in ANY position of power.

Will we ever know how it went down? No.....but chances are the old man would be alive if a different warden attended to the situation......and that says a lot.

Lots of judgement comments but how many have actually been employed in le & experienced this type of situation?

quote:

Originally posted by RVL III:
Young girls can kill you just as dead as old men.

No way to know what was in the shotgun. (just because I'm dove hunting doesn't mean I don't have some buckshot or slugs in another pocket)

Not knowing the lay of the land, 100yds may have been too far to keep an eye on someone. Not charging into things is one thing, backing too far off can make for it's own tactical disadvantages (being flanked, bad guys calling for help)

I've seen "old men" in better shape than alot of peace officers I work with. Plus you're wearing how much gear???Vest, handgun, extra mags, handcuffs, etc. VS a hunter w/a long gun and that's about it.

Plus, I'm not going to stand 100yds out from anyone and let them shoot "turkey loads" or anything else at me.

I made a comment in a le recertification class about a very young beautiful vietnamese girl who was booked in juvi hall,the instructor was vietnamese & immediately commented these girls are far more dangerous than the males, they carry the weapons and will kill anyone at any time!He said forget the looks be on guard around them & expect the unexpected.

Happy Independence Day Norton, now go back thru these pages of BS and show someone where it has been PROVEN that the officer had a history "Hunter Harrassment".

The BS mentioned about his ALLEGDED hunter harrassment is strictly hear say, no actual proof DS.

Have a Great 4th..

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

The BS mentioned about his ALLEGDED hunter harrassment is strictly hear say, no actual proof DS.

Have a Great 4th..

Happy 4th to you as well....

OK, it is alleged in a forum, I'll grant you that, and hearsay can be very dangerous........but complaints against him, disciplinary actions, AND any letters of support FOR him are probably public record in TX. Any chance you could find out? Then we can put this to rest once and for all.

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:

Then we can put this to rest once and for all.

Isnt it going to court?

Uhhh, I've been kinda floating along, keeping track of this more for the comic comments than anything else but how did this GW become a roque, POS??? Pretty far fetched value judgement wouldn't you say. Equally as bad as saying the old man, because he was an old man, was senile, crotchety, and not operating with a full deck. Wow.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
Now, what kind of a game warden this guy is must be known by the locals. If he is an asshole he didn't become one overnight. His reputation is what will tell you if he is telling the truth.

Above is a statement that echoes what I've been getting at. We have one person who posted above a first hand account of multiple complaints against this guy in the past. If he truly was an a**hole then the writing is on the wall, and hopefully somebody buries him soon too. Write people tickets for baiting, don't kill them.

Well, you write people tickets for speeding but when they refuse to stop, it escalates into a different situation.

quote:

OK, it is alleged in a forum, I'll grant you that, and hearsay can be very dangerous........but complaints against him, disciplinary actions, AND any letters of support FOR him are probably public record in TX. Any chance you could find out? Then we can put this to rest once and for all.

I will be happy to find out that information, there is just one tiny problem.

How would I go about finding the work records of a North Carolina GW in Texas??????????????

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
How would I go about finding the work records of a North Carolina GW in Texas??????????????

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnAir:
Now, what kind of a game warden this guy is must be known by the locals. If he is an asshole he didn't become one overnight. His reputation is what will tell you if he is telling the truth.

Above is a statement that echoes what I've been getting at. We have one person who posted above a first hand account of multiple complaints against this guy in the past. If he truly was an a**hole then the writing is on the wall, and hopefully somebody buries him soon too. Write people tickets for baiting, don't kill them.

It doesn't matter if the LEO is a great guy or an asshole, he will still shoot you if you don't comply.

I have met many LEO's in my 48 years on this planet. Some are great guys, some are assholes, just like anywhere.

I stand by my previous statement:

If a LEO tells you to do something and you don't comply, you stand a very good chance of becoming dead, especially if you are carrying a firearm.

If you have done nothing wrong, it will be cleared up eventually.
If you don't comply, you will be DEAD.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

OK, it is alleged in a forum, I'll grant you that, and hearsay can be very dangerous........but complaints against him, disciplinary actions, AND any letters of support FOR him are probably public record in TX. Any chance you could find out? Then we can put this to rest once and for all.

I will be happy to find out that information, there is just one tiny problem.

How would I go about finding the work records of a North Carolina GW in Texas??????????????

LOL....wow, I must have been having a senior moment.....at 45!

Welcome to the unbiased world of Old Timers Disease.

It only gets worse as you get closer to Geezerdom, that is the 50 and above crowd.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Welcome to the unbiased world of Old Timers Disease.

It only gets worse as you get closer to Geezerdom, that is the 50 and above crowd.

Wait until you reach the mid 60s ... ... ... Ahh - what was the question again?

FYI:

Wilkes County District Attorney Tom Horner said Thursday that Officer Minton's actions "were reasonable and appropriate in response to the perceived use or immediate use of deadly physical force by Mr. Coffey."

Horner said a criminal prosecution of Officer Minton was not warranted.

In a statement, Horner provided details about the shooting.

Officer Minton told investigators he approached Coffey, who was in a tree stand on Coffey's property off Cane Creek Church Road in Wilkes County. Officer Minton was investigating a report that someone was hunting turkeys illegally.

Officer Minton then tried unsuccessfully to get Coffey's attention. At one point, Officer Minton identified himself as a "game warden," and then Coffey stood up and demanded Officer Minton leave his property.

Coffey didn't comply with Officer Minton's orders, and Minton radioed other wildlife-resource officers for help, but they were several miles away.

Coffey then got down from the tree stand with his shotgun in his arms. Offcier Minton told investigators Coffey then approached him with his shotgun pointing at him.

Officer Minton ordered Coffey several times to stop, and Officer Minton then moved away from Coffey. However, Coffey pursued him, pointing his shotgun at Minton.

After Offcier Minton again ordered Coffey to stop, Minton drew his handgun and fired one shot at Coffey, hitting him in the chest. Minton then radioed for paramedics and tried unsuccessfully to revive Coffey.

Thanks Mike! God Bless all involved! Louis

I wonder if Mark Minton showed any remorse?

Or was he so glad he beat the rap that he hi-fived everyone in the room?

In any event, he'll always be remembered as Heart Shot Minton.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
I wonder if Mark Minton showed any remorse?

Or was he so glad he beat the rap that he hi-fived everyone in the room?

In any event, he'll always be remembered as Heart Shot Minton.

Hope that you never find yourself in the same situation.

Same situation? You mean a gung-ho warden, so hell-bent on carrying out the letter of the law that he resorts to cold blooded murder?

In that case I'll make damn sure I steer clear of Wilkes county, North Carolina.

The DA investigated the case and didn't see it thesame as your screwed up perspective. I'll bet he had better imformation than you about the circumstances involved.

While your staying away from N.C....add Alabama to your list to avoid. We don't need any more idiot yankees here.....

After all this Bull Shit, about a tragic incident that effected two families in many ways, I have just one damn question.

Why do so many folks on here feel that an LEO is automatically in the wrong when trying to perform their duty.

Do some of you people feel that there should not be any law enforcement of any kind and that everyone should just be able to do as they please?

It has already been established on this topic that there are bad cops/GW's and good cops/GW's, but some of you seem to think that ALL LEO's are renegades out there with the single purpose of riding rough shod over every one they come in contact with.

What causes that kind of behavior or attitude?

Is it just a case some of you feel like you are never doing anything wrong and if you get stopped and questioned about your actions you automatically get an attitude?

How many of you ever stop to think that just maybe if you didn't take an attitude toward the LEO, they might not take one toward you.

This is not the only site where I have seen this type thinking.

People want LEO's to enforce the laws, as long as they are enforcing them on someone else, what is up with that?

Of course that was Minton's story....

All I ask is that this officer's record is reviewed. If he has a history of hunter harassment would that change the opinion of any of the LEO ass-kissers on here?

quote:

Originally posted by DTala:
We don't need any more idiot yankees here.....

Do we need to come down there and kick your ass again?

----------alabaman

To onefunzr2 and Norton -

DTala gave you fair warning.

quote:

While your staying away from N.C....add Alabama to your list to avoid. We don't need any more idiot yankees here.....

I kinda hope you choose not to heed it.

quote:

All I ask is that this officer's record is reviewed. If he has a history of hunter harassment would that change the opinion of any of the LEO ass-kissers on here?

I have never been an LEO Ass Kisser in my life, I just have never ran into ANY LEO that is as BAD as you and some others seem to think.

I have been hunting and fishing for about 45 years now, and while I have run across a GW and/or a Highway Patrolman or two that was more inclined to follow the Letter of the Law, while many more were more interested in the intent of the law, NONE of them have ever approached me or treated me in a manner that I felt was threatening or harrassing.

In your book does complying with a request by an LEO to see your license amount to harrassment?

How do you feel/think GW's or other LEO's should react when approaching a situation where the peron they are fixing to make contact with is armed?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

All I ask is that this officer's record is reviewed. If he has a history of hunter harassment would that change the opinion of any of the LEO ass-kissers on here?

In your book does complying with a request by an LEO to see your license amount to harrassment?

How do you feel/think GW's or other LEO's should react when approaching a situation where the peron they are fixing to make contact with is armed?

Mutual respect......If I'm harassed I'll give it right back.....my interactions with F & G thus far in my state have been exemplary, and I wish that every CO acted like the ones I've dealt with.

But the stories I've heard about one in particular makes me eye him very warily. You see, if I were piling trophy deer in the woods behind my house or shooting 200 wood ducks in 2 days I'd deserve to get buried by them......and I wouldn't complain a lick. Just like the people who complain when a cop pounds the crap out of some repeat violent offender who just led them on a 120mph chase.......I have no problems if they do that, friend.

What bothers me is LEOs with attitude......I know they deal with trash all day.....but a few keystrokes on their cruiser computer tells them I have ABSOLUTELY NO VIOLATIONS!.....and should be treated as such.

I'm not a fan of repeat offenders.....in fact, I think repeat violent offenders should never see daylight again, much less be walking our streets. But I digress.....

And to answer your 2 questions directly: no, and professionally without harassment.

From reading your posts, up to this one, it seemed like you had a problem with LEO's in general.

This post sheds a whole different light on things, and in many ways I think most of us feel this way about our interactions with LEO's regardless of the department they are in.

This statement right here however: [QUOTE]But the stories I've heard about one in particular makes me eye him very warily. [/QUOTE}, really cause me some confusion, because you have pre-judged this officer, Without Ever Having Dealt With Him Personally!

Could it be possible that the folks that you have been listening to, were not exactly totally truthful with how they responded to the officer when he first made contact with them or just exactly what they were doing when the contact was made?

I ain't trying to say that you ain't had experiences of your own, but from my experience, the folks that seem to have the most trouble when being stopped by an LEO of anykind, and start hollering harrassment, are the folks that usually, not always, but usually are folks that walk on the line or just over the line of what is legal and what isn't, and when they get stopped, it hurts their ego's because they have gotten away with speeding or catching one fish or shooting one bird over the limit for years, so when they get caught, instead of admitting to their screw up, they pull an attitude with the LEO involved and things go sideways from that point.

JMO Norton.

Much of what you said in your last post is just exactly how I feel, and I ain't an LEO or GW Ass Kisser.

I know that if I am being stopped, it is because that officer had a reasonable suspicion something was wrong, that is their right and responsibility.

If I am sure that I am in the right, and nothing is illegal, I still ain't gonna pull an attitude.

I am gonna wait until the officer tells me why he is stopping me, and if I am in the right, I will explain my side of the situation.

The ONLY speeding ticket I have ever received was in 1976 in New Mexico doing 75 in a 65 zone coming back from hunt.

By the time the officer let me go, he had looked at all my guns, we had discussed hunting in New Mexico and the fun of hunting with muzzle loading rifles.

He did not take an attitude and neither did I.

No Harm, No Foul, I was speeding, I knew it, and I got my big ass caught, BFD.

The problem is, and this is strictly from the things you said in your other posts, there are people that feel an LEO, any LEO should not be interferring with them and what they are doing, and if they do, it is harrassement.

At no point in all these pages of discussion. have I stated that the GW was not guiltless, I have said repeatedly, that the GW and the old man are/were the ONLY people that knew/know what actually happened, and that the whole incident was tragic.

Even with the info that was posted, as someone else said during this mess, we still do not know what actually happened, and never will.

quote:

I ain't trying to say that you ain't had experiences of your own, but from my experience, the folks that seem to have the most trouble when being stopped by an LEO of anykind, and start hollering harrassment, are the folks that usually, not always, but usually are folks that walk on the line or just over the line of what is legal and what isn't, and when they get stopped, it hurts their ego's because they have gotten away with speeding or catching one fish or shooting one bird over the limit for years, so when they get caught, instead of admitting to their screw up, they pull an attitude with the LEO involved and things go sideways from that point.

YES! Couldn't agree more.