quote:

My issue with hunting kills is only where it becomes that the first shot doesn't kill the animal only maims it.

This is why I showed you the radiographs of my skull...as I was obviously not killed and only wounded or maimed as you say.

Why not ask me what it feltlike?

ledvm,

Painful i would imagine but ok what did it feel like?

Thanks for the answer to scientifically which is less painful therefore more humane.

As i have said i would prefer the most humane way possible for an animal to die and like you say the one shot is humane. But even if the pain from a wounding is not overly painful, for me it is still less humane than the one shot kill. If that makes sense.

ledvm,

After going away and thinking on what you had posted i have a few questions which i think possibly you as a vet may well be able to answer.
Would it not be fair to say that the level of pain you felt when shot may differ from say me if i was inflicted with the same injury? In other words aren't all our pain thresholds/levels different?
Assumimg that is correct then is it not possible that different species of being have different pain threshold/levels? And that every other species for example impala will also vary in their pain threshold/levels?

If then that is the case surely it is impossible for us to say without scientific research what pain an impala feels if not killed with one shot but maimed/injured?

Not Lane, which I am sure he is quite Thankful for, but, and just for the sake of a point of reference, do you think an animal feel more pain when having been shot or being taken down by a predator?

How about animals being taken by snares used by the natives? Or animals that have been poisoned?

All sport hunters, archers or gun hunters strive to produce a fast, humane death for their quarry. Subsistence hunters and nature have no such strictures. Death in nature is far from quick or humane. Subsistence hunters use any method they can contrive, the only consideration they have is whether the intended target will be a food item or if it is a competeing predator.

If you are going to keep an open mind on this subject, you need to consider what death in nature is like. Death is the one thing that makes humans and animals equal, death will occur at some point. Whether the instrument of that death is a well placed bullet from a high powered rifle being held by a sport hunter, or a piece of poisoned meat put out by a native in an effort to protect his goats, or being torn to pieces by a pack of hyenas, death is the end result.

The difference in a real practical sense, is that neither the hyenas nor the poacher/native contribute anything to conserve the lion and try to ensure its continued existance, sport hunters do, but because of the use of the word "Sport" people feel that there is something wrong with that and want it stopped.

The issue that is not addressed is where will the money come from to help conserve species, such as lions, if the money sport hunters spend is shut off?

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:

Would it not be fair to say that the level of pain you felt when shot may differ from say me if i was inflicted with the same injury? In other words aren't all our pain thresholds/levels different?
Assumimg that is correct then is it not possible that different species of being have different pain threshold/levels? And that every other species for example impala will also vary in their pain threshold/levels?

Mrs. Joloubrn,

You are correct to some extent. But...humans are the most wimpy species on earth. Anything a human can tolerate...an anaimal can take for granted...espicially a species that has existed as a prey animal for eons on the continent od Africa or a predator that takes down buffalo for lunch. Those aniamls are tough...tough in a sense that you (we...humans) cannot appreciate.

I as knocked out cold from that gunshot for about 15 minutes. I then got up got a drink of water, washed my mouth out, and waited on the ambulance. Endorphins kept it from really hurting at all for the first 12-24 hrs. Then it hurt like hell for a few days before I began to recover.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
If you are going to keep an open mind on this subject, you need to consider what death in nature is like.

Randall is exactly right here.

A normal life for a lion, an impala, or a buffalo...is a very violent existence.

In my opinion...being shot by a high powered rifle...is much less brutal than most natural deaths.

This is Nat Geo footage that underlines Lanes comments.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlbY5z5FDWg

You don't need to watch it, lets just say the lions don't always kill before eating.

John

quote:

Not Lane, which I am sure he is quite Thankful for, but, and just for the sake of a point of reference, do you think an animal feel more pain when having been shot or being taken down by a predator?

How about animals being taken by snares used by the natives? Or animals that have been poisoned?

crazyhorseconsulting,

I would assume that an animal being taken down by a predator,snares or poison would have more pain.

quote:

If you are going to keep an open mind on this subject, you need to consider what death in nature is like. Death is the one thing that makes humans and animals equal, death will occur at some point. Whether the instrument of that death is a well placed bullet from a high powered rifle being held by a sport hunter, or a piece of poisoned meat put out by a native in an effort to protect his goats, or being torn to pieces by a pack of hyenas, death is the end result.

I hear what you are saying honestly.

quote:

The issue that is not addressed is where will the money come from to help conserve species, such as lions, if the money sport hunters spend is shut off?

I agree. Which links to the reason i came here, ie does hunting help or hinder the conservation of the lion.

quote:

You are correct to some extent. But...humans are the most wimpy species on earth. Anything a human can tolerate...an anaimal...espicially a species that has existed as a prey animal for eons on the continent od Africa or a predator that takes down buffalo for lunch. Those aniamls are tough...tough in a sense that you (we...humans) cannot appreciate.

I as knocked out cold from that gunshot for about 15 minutes. I then got up got a drink of water, washed my mouth out, and waited on the ambulance. Endorphins kept it from really hurting at all for the first 12-24 hrs. Then it hurt like hell for a few days before I began to recover.

Thanks for your response. It indeed makes sense that we are wimps and animals are a lot tougher.

The second part makes sense too, i fell off my motorbike and didn't feel the extent of the pain until much later in the day.

I hope that you have fully recovered from being shot fully.

John,

I recently saw footage of lions eating a hippo alive. My honest response was poor hippo but that is nature. I think i find the violence of nature easier to acccept than the possible multi shot kill of a hunt.
I think maybe i need to reevaluate this on the back of ledvm and crazyhorseconsultings posts.

Regardless of how we approach it we (hunters) know that we are taking a life and with that comes a high level of responsibility.

It is incumbent on us to do our utmost to take an animal cleanly and quickly. Not to allow the animal to suffer needlessly. And to not waste the animal or to allow it to be wasted.

The vast majority of hunters take this very seriously.

(In my state it is illegal to shoot an animal and allow the meat to be wasted)

quote:

Originally posted by JohnHunt:
Regardless of how we approach it we (hunters) know that we are taking a life and with that comes a high level of responsibility.

It is incumbent on us to do our utmost to take an animal cleanly and quickly. Not to allow the animal to suffer needlessly. And to not waste the animal or to allow it to be wasted.

The vast majority of hunters take this very seriously.

(In my state it is illegal to shoot an animal and allow the meat to be wasted)

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
I agree. Which links to the reason i came here, ie does hunting help or hinder the conservation of the lion.

I say this with the utmost sincerety: "Without hunting...the wild lion and its wild habitat cease to exist!"

quote:

than the possible multi shot kill of a hunt.

In spite of some of the written stories and videos around, the instances of multiple shots being used are not the norm.

Unless something really weird goes on, even on the big animals like cape buffalo and elephant, a second shot is just to make sure the animal is dead.

A lion is not something anyone wants wounded. A wounded lion is probably not going to run away from the hunter/hunting party, but run at them, and is quite willing and capable of killing and maiming people. People that go to the effort to hunt lions, do everything they can to ensure that when the shot is fired, the lion is going to die right then.

Whether it is a lion or a white tail deer, it does not matter, hunters do not want to wound game. They do not want the game to suffer. They do not want to lose game.

Unlike other predatory animals, humans have the ability to decide whether or not to make a kill. Other predators have no choice, they have to make a kill to survive and whatever presents itsself first and most conviniently is what is killed. A human can assess the situation and walk away.

As for the hunted meat versus farmed meat discussion, i almost always prefer hunted meat.
Why: It is ecological, natural, drug free and has usually been taken less than a mile from my house. Usually by myself, and almost always with one shot from a rifle. The roe deer i my freezer was practically raised in my backyard before it ends up at my family’s dinner table.

The meat i by in a store on the other hand, i know very little about. Especially if it’s imported. How can i know if the animals was well treated when they were alive, and humanely put to death?

Yesterday i shot me a young cormorant for dinner. With potatoes, sauce and lingonberries it tasted perfectly If you eat meat, what can be more natural than that? Hunting in that sense is the same as fishing. You "harvest" the abundance of nature.

As for trophy hunting... Well i am a little ambivalent towards it, but as long as the population is big enough to hunt, the hunting is done correctly and the meat and skin is not wasted, i can’t see any good reasons why it shouldn’t be allowed.

We humans are strange that way. We have no qualms about eating one kind of animal for dinner or using its skin, horns, carcass etc. (Do you know how gelatin is made? Kind of gross..) But animals that we consider exotic say a lion for us northern Europeans or a reindeer for an African, we consider "holy", and condemn those who hunt it.

I consider such views on nature incredibly naive and uninformed.

Lars