jolouburn, Welcome to the Accurate Reloading forums. I just have one question at this time for you, where are you from? It is not listed on your posts/responses.

Why “I” hunt.

Does a woman in her pregnancy, think about defending, nurturing or caring for her unborn child? I think not. Does a soldier in a firefight, push the limits of human focus because he choses or does he simply, because his instinct to survive takes over?

Rhetorical questions perhaps, but prudent to the debate I say.

FOR ME, it is no different, I don’t choose to hunt, I hunt because it is woven into the fabric of my soul. I do not have a turn it on and turn it off button, it is always on, it does grow with intensity while away on a trip and for some period of time afterwards. I have complete clarity of vision and a hightend sense of awareness.

It would be a concious decision for me not to hunt, for you see, we, the hunters & gatherers are really no different than you, the instict to survive by self reliant means is just not bred out of us as yet. Do we need to hunt to survive.....absoultely not. Nor do we need to copulate to reproduce. Can you argue that is not instinctive behavior? I don’t think so.

Maybe that make us that do less civilized than those of you that do not. We do not chastise those that choose not to, even thought the complete conservation of entire species are due to the international sport hunting community (white, black rhino) we have conserved them into huntable populations. Counterintuitive ? perhaps but true none the less.

The same will be true once lion hunting is stopped and yes, I do in fact believe it will be stopped. It will be stopped for all the wrong reasons by people who don’t even understand what they have done. They will celibrate the demise of wild lions and even wild places in whole. Once the international sport hunting community looses interest in a lifeless landscape, or fenced paddocks, the wildlife is thru.

Who pays to keep it safe? lionaid? greenpeace? humane society? ask yourself. Perhaps international sport hunters?

For it is us, the same international sport hunting community that are the endangered species. Without us.....Africa will die. You seem to be an educated individual, go do some research on Kenya. Outside the national parks it is dead. NO SPORT HUNTING.

You awake to a noise, it is 2:45 in the morning, your pregnant wife lies beside you, your 3 year old son lies in his bed sound asleep. It is an intuder. What do u do? Call the police Hah!!!! GFL. I choose to live and defend my family.

There.......thats why I hunt, and why I dig my constitutional right to keep and bear arms. The ironic part is I would gladly defend yours and your families life with my guns while you detest the manner in which I do it. See, were really not that different after all are we.

Yep cocked and locked

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
jolouburn, Welcome to the Accurate Reloading forums. I just have one question at this time for you, where are you from? It is not listed on your posts/responses.

Hey Randall,
how is it? my guess is the UK.

Jolouburn,

I DO hope you did not eat meat today. That would mean the difference between you and hunters is that we do our own killing. Much as the Lion does.

Rich

Dear jolouburn

Welcome to AR, i have no doubt you will have some interesting discussions here!

I do not know where you reside or what your background is; and if you are not from Africa how much time you have spent here on the ground? Although there are many Africans who have never ventured beyond the bounds of the city that they live in!

I am a passionate hunter, it is part of my culture, was my full time career for a few years and hunting fur and fowl remains my passionate pursuit. I will leave the scientific and academic debates to those that are better equipped and qualified to engage at that level. I am just a simple man who has spent many years in the African bush ineracting with the wildlife and people of this incredible continent. I also feel that i have no need to justify my desire to hunt, a hunter i am and hunt i will. Sometime for meat and others for trophies. Most who question my desire to hunt have no real comprehension of what a hunt truly consists of. They have generally been exposed to anti-hunting sentiment by the likes of National Geographic, a friend who carries anti hunting sentiment or some of these vicious and irrational animal rights activists - people that in my opinion have the need to fight for a cause and find that which suits them best regardless of the implications thereof.

Not all conservationists hunt and not all africans who have a deep love for the bush hunt, but i would hazard a bet that 99% of people that have devoted their lives to living amongst the game and conserving it will be in support of well managed and sustainable hunting.

The number 1 threat to game in Africa is habitat loss, the number 2 threat is uncontrolled poaching/harvesting of game for the illegal bush meat trade. If hunting were to be banned many of the areas that are currently protected and conserved would suffer dramatic damage through uncontrolled harvesting of fauna and flora. The vast areas in Tanzania, Zambia and Zimbabwe that are currently managed as hunting concessions would not be cared for by the animal rights groups. They are quick to protest and complain but i have yet to see one group that has actually embarked on and maintained a significant long term project that has sustained and conserved the habitat, animals and general ecosystem of an area? Most piggy back on already existing projects and try to hijack the limelight for their own marketing and fundraising efforts!

I would like to propose a challenge to the people in the circles in which you mix and to the anti hunters on a whole. There are many depleted parts of Africa where game has suffered increddibly from habitat destruction and poaching. In the past few years i can name a few of these areas, significant in size that have been managed by hunting outfitters where the game populations have increased significantly, habitat restored and people employed. The future is good for these animals and the surrounding communities and i strongly believe that if it were not for hunters this would not be the case. Lets see the animal rights groups (from scratch) co-ordinate, fund and manage an area for the good of the habitat, animals and locals communities. Just one area of 100 000ha for 10 years......

Regards

Thank you very much for all your replies so far. I fear though i may have made a rod for my own back here because i haven't been clear enough with my opinion on hunting!

But first for those who have asked a little more about me yes i do live in the UK. I travel to SA on holidays and spend my time between the Kruger Park and the lion park in J'berg.

Now for the more difficult task of explaining my beliefs on hunting. From an emotional point of view i am against all hunting and cannot comprehend how anyone could enjoy hunting. I do however know that we are not all the same and each to their own.

From a more rational point of view my major concern with hunting is endangered or declining in population species. I as appears most of you too do not want to see the lion become extinct!

I do comprehend we hunt/kill animals for meat and yes i am a meat eater although i do not eat meat which has been hunted, ie shot through personal choice.

I have no problem from a rational point of view with people who hunt to eat as long as the population of the hunted animal is sustainable.

I have no problem with people eating sustainable animals which i would choose not to eat however they are killed such as dog, giraffe, zebra, wildebeest etc.

I do have a problem with trophy hunting on both a rational and emotional level. I do not believe animals should be killed to decorate no matter what. Again i accept this is personal choice.

As i understand it lion meat is not eaten in SA as they don't eat predators and it is seen as barbaric. Therefore i do not believe lions should be hunted.

I also have problems with the 'rules' being broken, corruption and the hunting of lions under 6 years old.

I also object to the 'over 6 years rule' as lions have not finished being capable of breeding at that age. They may also be fathers whose death could result in more deaths in the pride when a new male takes over.

I think that covers most of it, oh perhaps not. I once spoke to a lady in the states who hunted deer. She explained to me that the population was booming and that there was not enough food or territory for the deer and therefore some of them were starving. She said the majority of deer she killed were either very sick or old but their deaths meant there was more food for the young and healthy to thrive. I can comprehend this kind of culling although i could never take part.

I hope this explains a little better where i am coming from and as i said to John Hunt elsewhere when he asked, IF it was proved beyond doubt that the hunting of lions was beneficial to their survival i would not object on a rational level.

Oh sorry i know i haven't addressed some of the issues you raised but i will when i have time to come back, hopefully later this afternoon.

I just wanted to clear things up a little first from my bad explanations.

quote:

Hey Randall,
how is it? my guess is the UK.

Everything is moving right along, leave out on the 15th. of this month around 5 a.m. headed for Arizona. Went out yesterday with the wild idea of trying to stick a stick in a white tail doe, had 7 bucks of varying sizes walk by me from 5 yards to 10 yards out, but I ws looking for a doe.

A non-hunter would have a hard time understanding that a hunter would knowingly turn down shots at game because it was not what they were after, especially when my quest was for meat and not horns, trophies mean different things to different hunters.

I hunt, because like yourself and many other folks I know, it is part of who I am and part of what makes me, me.

You might be right on the UK.

Randall

quote:

I just wanted to clear things up a little first from my bad explanations.

Thnk you for the information and comments. My only observation at this point concerns your comment about "Trophy Only" hunting. You are not alone, and it is not just anti hunters that have issues with the "Trophy Only" concept.

I have never gave thought to hunting African Lions. Mountain Lions in N.A. are a different thing. One of my major hang ups however that has kept me from going to africa to hunt is simply because it would be a "Trophy Only" situation as I can not bring the meat back home with me. I have went to Canada twice, but both times I have brought as much meat from my kills as possible back home.

I have worked in a profession where I dealt with many folks that were anti-hunting and as a group, their main geipe about hunting dealt with the "Trophy Only" aspect.

One thing I do know however, in our modern world some words or their meaning have become lost, one of those as it deals with wildlife is the word priceless. Too many modern people associate priceless with the word worthless. They want to see a $$$$$$$ amount for an object or an animal.

Telling people that a leopard is priceless helped push the animals toward extinction at one point in fairly recent history. Placing a 30K price tag on them made them valuable and worth saving for the folks willing to fork over that 30K for the priveledge of hunting one.

It is the same thing with the lions except on a different level, if the animals are declared off limitas ro sport hunting, the population will be exterminated in 10m years or less, LEDVM or Aaron Neilsen are more knowledgeable on that time frame, but without having a real/tangible value and reason to save the animals they will be wipe out by the locals.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
Steve, I do not like the idea of anyone not trained to use a gun handling them. I believe all gun owner should have permits and have training in how to use them. So in short I don't like people having guns without permits.

.....

I repeat I am not here to insult, call names or troll.

OK...I'll take you at your word "am not here to insult, call names or troll"

Now... Here's the problem I have with anti-hunters including you:

I respect your right to choose not to hunt. However, You are already trying to tell me and others how that "all gun owner should have permits and have training in how to use them". I know how to handle firearms safely and know how to use them safely! Yet you think I need a permit when you personnaly, really have no clue what your talking about.

You should return the respect I'm willing to allow you and respect our decision to be hunters!!!

Mr. or Ms. Jolouburn...whichever the case may be,

You have defined this discussion as pertaining to both emotional and rational feelings and facts respectively. I will address both.

Steve (Nganga) has defined the emotional debate on our (hunter) side very well thus far...I will add:

First...let me state that I am a veterinarian by profession and have devoted my life to giving care to animals.

A hunter and defender is who I am. I do not choose to hunt...hunting chooses me. It is a part of my genetic make up just as the feeling to be able to protect myself, my family, and even others is ingrained into my sole.

Stripped of my rights to hunt and to keep and bear arms...I have no place on this earth and would just as soon leave it. Therefore...I would choose to defend those rights with my life if necessary for those are rights I value not only for my self but my off-spring.

I believe that every person (except felons and illegal aliens) should have the right to keep and bear arms at all times WITHOUT having to get a permit. Certainly I do believe in safety and proficiency.

It has been said that: "the most polite times ever in the USA were during the 1920's when almost everyone carried a gun on there person."

Police are great to investigate but protection falls to the individual.

Back to hunting. As a healthcare professional...I see death as much of a part of life as life itself. One thing that all living organisms have in common is the fact that they will die. Death is not an unatural phenomenon to be feared...it is a part of life. Just as you see it as foregn to be able to kill something...I see it as unatural to not be able to. As Nganga eluded to...we live our lives much the same as the lion it self.

Ranchers and farmers too are similar to hunters. They prize there herds and/or flocks, toil for hour on end to maintain their status, dote on their quality and health but delite in the tasty meal of a fine steak, chop, or breast.

Now for some rational discussion. One first must define what is paramount for the lion's existence. Without hesitation...I can tell you it is habitat. The lion requires large tracts of land with out human encroachment where its prey has forage in order to survive...at least as a wild animal. The national parks scattered throughout the continent as large as they may be...are really not big enough for the lion. They need corridors between the parks to acquire genetic diversity. Hunting blocks provide this habitat in addition to the parks as well as providing these corridors between. Hunting blocks also provide buffer zones between the ever growing human population and the lion...for...as much as we try to forget...lions DO eat people on occassion and livestock at every opportunity available and Native Africans DO NOT like lions...a fact of life.

Now...it has also been said in Africa: "for it to stay...it must pay." The only way a lion can pay for itself is through hunting. The only way the land the lion calls home can pay for it self is through hunting...if it is not going to be grazed or cultivated which is definitly NOT conducive to wild lions lives.

Hunting preserves habitat and gives value to wild life...staples to their existence.

Poaching is the second most dangerous threat. The rhino is evidence of that. Certainly all would agree that poaching and NOT sport hunting is the reason for the rhino's demise in the wild. While not perfect...the hunting industry is the only industry actively engaged in antipoaching in the far reaching corners of Africa's wild places.

Now...to concede a bit...lion hunting does need a little reform to remain sustainable for infinity and that is what this forum is all about. You can read for hours on this forum alone about opinions on that. But the fact there is so much written on the subject by hunters...is evidence that hunters DO CARE.

Sincerely,
Lane

Nganga, Thanks for your reply. I have no issues with your right to keep and bear arms in the slightest. Of course i would defend my family too if i had a gun. I would not have a gun though but that is just personal choice.

'Who pays to keep it safe?' is part of the reason why i asked my original question. I am not naive enough to think that some of the anti-hunting groups would pay to keep the land safe eternally or naive enough to think they could afford to. I guess i was just curious to know if hunters and the concessions contribute in any other way than providing habitat.

I don't detest the manner in which you choose to keep your family safe or would defend mine but i do feel there is a difference between hunting and protecting oneself against an intruder.

Idaho Sharpshooter, Thanks for your reply. I did eat meat and do eat meat but i choose not to eat meat that has been hunted, ie shot. I don't particularly like the way my meat is killed either but as a matter of personal opinion i prefer the method.

Manyathelo, Thanks for your reply. I am not asking you to justify your desire or right to hunt. I am merely trying to gain an all round knowledge of hunting vs ant-hunting.

I choose my causes well and the welfare of lions is very close to my heart as i see it is for some of you. I have not chosen a cause to suit me regardless of the implications. If i had i would not be here trying to understand and gain knowledge.

crazyhorseconsulting, I have no trouble understanding that a hunter would turn down shots because its not what hes after. I am no different, when i go buy a dress i dont just pick any i usually have something specific in mind.

I am from the UK as stated in my last but one post, take it you didn't read it lol

RaySendero, I respect you have the right to choose to hunt. I am not telling you and others how things should be only what in my OPINION should be. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and i'm sorry you don't like mine regarding guns and permits. I'm very happy that you know how to handle a firearm safely and how to use them and if the law states that you don't need a permit then i respect that. I suggest that respect works both ways and you respect i have the right to an opinion as long as it is voiced in the correct manner.

ledvm, Thanks for your reply. I am beginning to see that certainly the hunters whom have replied to my post do care about the wildlife.

I agree that there are many factors in the lions and other wildlifes decline and that it cannot be pin pointed to one cause.

quote:

Originally posted by jolouburn:
RaySendero, I respect you have the right to choose to hunt. I am not telling you and others how things should be only what in my OPINION should be. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and i'm sorry you don't like mine regarding guns and permits. I'm very happy that you know how to handle a firearm safely and how to use them and if the law states that you don't need a permit then i respect that. I suggest that respect works both ways and you respect i have the right to an opinion as long as it is voiced in the correct manner.

You are missing my point!

I respect your decision not to hunt and do not hold an opinion on how you should go about your business.

Yet, You, having no experience as a hunter, think you know how to add regulations to us! It's not about opinions - Its about your audacity to think you know!

Raysendero, When someone asks me a question about firearms and permits, i think fire arms in general not just ones used to hunt.
Are you telling me that everyone who has a fire arm is as safe as you claim to be with one? Can you honestly say the average Joe on the street should be able to carry a weapon with no training? How would you feel if someone you love or yourself was injured or even killed by someone with a fire arm that has had no training?
When it comes to fire arms i believe better safe than sorry and i have not only the audacity but the right too to hold that opinion.
Now perhaps rather than being hostile and judgemental you could calm down and respect my right to an opinion and check your facts before you lose your temper with me.

You have no real idea what i know or do not know about firearms and their use! I could be an expert for all you know and have studied them for years.

Firearms are a scary thing for people that haven't had any or limited exposure to them. Most of there experience comse from the television or news where a firearm is associated with some bad event. With a little exposure you learn that they are simply a tool. Read the instruction manual that comes with it and your are fine. They are no more inherently dangerous then many other things commonly in our lives.

As for training everybody wants training. And everybody wants others trained. I know I wanted that kid at the range that absent mindedly swept me with his muzzle to get a little training. And frankly training is a lot of fun especially at places like Gunsite. I spent a lot of time training before my safari to Africa. Before I left I was disciplined, safe and could shoot a racoon at 400 meters with a large caliber rifle. This level of preparation was not necessary but it sure wss fun.

What we don't want is a legal requirement for training and a license. Far more people get injured playing soccer here in the states then from firearms and we would think a license to play soccer would be nonsense. And as a sidenote we have had a huge surge in firearm sales in the United States after the election of Obama (enough to equip the entire Chinese Army) and at the same time, according to the FBI, a drop in violent crime in our country.

Are there tragic accidents? yes
Do bad people do bad things with guns? yes

Does that mean there should be a training/legal requirment to own guns. Most don't see the logic to it.