One of Us
| quote: Originally posted by smarterthanu: quote: SMU - I'm sorry if you have only seen a lion stay on bait for over 48 hrs, one time. I've seen it many times, so I'm not sure what to tell ya?
I assure you, I totally understand the dynamics of a pride, the total AREA they can range, etc, etc. We have discussed this all before. Certainly male lions, who have a pride, can and are often away from a pride for long periods of time. The females, my or may not show up, etc, etc. I was referring to a guideline, not an absolute. If I saw lion #2 at my bait, and unless I already somehow KNEW for sure he was holding a pride with dependent cubs, I'm shooting him straightaway! I have often said I somewhat disagree with Bwanamich and some of their ideals, but I still appreciate what they are doing, and I certainly am not criticising them for it.
That is my point also. Bwana claims to know what works for managing lions in his area and that sounds great, but now all hunters must use the same plan. Now there are a huge number of hunters who won't stand a chance in hell of ever killing a lion. Not all lions behave the way they do where Bwanna hunts. That was my point also.
SMU, you will have to correct me if I am wrong, cause very possibly I am. I know you've hunted lion in the Save, not sure where else? Bwana hunts mainly in some very good/wild areas of TZ, I personally have hunted both, and many other places in between! Without question, I will tell you that lions from the Save act much differently than the lions in more wild/remote places of Zambia/Tanzania. Lions like those in the Save are much more weary, much more cautious, and without question that's because they see/hear and are associated with people and hunting on a much more frequent basis. Places like the Save, I agree, a good male lion is less likely to stay on bait for an extended period of time. They are often more nocturnal, etc. On the flip side, I kept a lion that we did shoot, on bait in Tanzania for exactly 7 days, a full 7 days! Of course he walked 1/2 mile to get water, and sometimes he was back in the long grass, but we could find him ON the bait, every day, for 7 days in a row. I've seen the same thing in Zambia on numerous occasions,and I see the lions in these "wild" places, acting much differently than the lions in places like the Save, or areas similar to it. I think the mistake that Bwanamich is making, is applying the things that have worked for them in TGT, to the rest of Africa, without consideration of the differences. I think perhaps you are doing the same.
Now if you know all wild lions live to 4 on average, you know more than anyone else, including the leading scientists, and certainly more than I. I try to deal with what I know for certain, strictly from personal experience, the time I've spent hunting lion for the past 16 yrs, and the time I've spent with the likes of Dr. White observing the Zambian Lion Project, the conversations I personally had with Dr. Craig Packer, Dr. Colleen Begg, Dr. Luke Hunter and Dr. Guy Balme. Every single expert that I know, that I have talked to or dealt with all agree, and Lane has previously put it in plain english. The hunting/shooting of young/immature lions, those that are less than 5 yrs old, is and should be an unacceptable management practice, as it pertains to the longevity of the wild lion. Now certainly, if your data, and any collaborating data from the scientific experts you are working with says differently, please bring it to our attention. I assure you, I would be the first one to pay attention, and support it, if the evidence/science said it.
Then ask those scientists why lion populations in the zambezi skyrocketed when they have been shooting young lions and pride males for decades and still are.
Dude, those of us involved with the LCTF, don't always agree on everything either. Bwanamich and I often disagree! But we both support eachother, because we recognize that we do bring experience, data, and other important values to the table, as it pertains to the African Lion. I don't agree with everything the NRA or SCI does or says, but I certainly support them as a whole. I would hope you would recognize that sometimes you might dis-agree with us, but overall the LCTF is working to preserve the lion and the longevity of lion hunting all across Africa. We look for support and experience, not alienation of anyone.
I understand yall's intentions are true. But you are playing a hand of cards that the antis are dealing you. You need to learn how to set the stage.
SMU - Nobody's proved to me that the lion populations in the Valley have sky-rocketed! Have you spent months their to determine this yourself, or are you taking it as second hand info from someone else? Trust me when I say, I hope they have. First off, my opinion of some of the lion/buffalo problems we hear about in the valley, is not so much the case of lion/buffalo problems as it is over-hunting problems. When a couple of the major blocks re-allocated a few years ago, the operators paid SO much money for them, that they had NO choice but to insist on higher buffalo quotas, and the use of that quota. Exactly why it became harder to find hard-bossed bulls there too, as a side note. Now I'm certain nobody would agree with me publically, but I've have several agree with me in private. But, speaking of wildlife management, think of it in terms of most of Colorado's deer herd, compared to what we have in eastern Colorado, just follow me here for a minute. When you look across most of the state, the buck/doe ratio is as low as 12/100, probably averages 14/100, versus what we have in eastern Colorado of 40+/100. Thus the reason the majority of the bucks killed throughout the state are 2.5 - 3.5 yrs old, and score 150" or less, is because that's pretty much what's there. The vast majority of the big bucks have long since been killed, and once many of the bucks are 2 - 3 yrs old, they too are being killed. Now, the deer herd is doing just fine, and in most places it has increased over the past 10 - 15 yrs, lots of does, and lots of immature bucks, but few old/mature bucks, because they are not allowed to live that long. Same is absolutely true of much of Colorado's elk herd. lots of elk, lots of cows/young bulls, few old, mature bulls. The opposite is true in eastern Colorado on the places we lease, and its NOT because of the tag numbers/quota for each unit. I guarantee you, I could easily over-shoot the big bucks on our best ranches in 1-2 yrs, based on the quota of tags given by the Game & Fish at this very moment. GUARANTEED, NO QUESTION ABOUT IT! We consistently shoot big deer every year for one reason, our OWN management/hunting practices. We will not shoot a deer that we feel confident is not at least 5.5 yrs old, regardless of size. Trust me, two years ago I had a bow-hunter freak out, because I would not let him shoot a mid 180's muley, that I was positive was not over 4.5 yrs old. It takes more than quota/tag numbers to manage/create mature, older animals. Exactly why you see a fair number of lions in the Valley, but yet, if they are over run with lions, why are they still shooting mostly young lions, and rarely old/mature lions. Because they have for too long, shot too many male lions, just like the deer in Colorado, and that leaves you only with young up and commers, who get shot long before their prime. In the case of deer, the above example is not as severe an issue, as deer are not socialistic/pride animals like lions. Nor are they facing population number estimates like the lion either. SMU, I am not saying you are WRONG! What I am saying is to date, the science and the scientific experts, based on data compiled from the field, are saying and supporting that the shooting of lions, under the age of 5, is detrimental to the longevity of the lion. If you really think that's wrong, the best thing to do is prove its wrong. I've never seen a single ounce of evidence that supports the shooting of 2-4 yr old lions as a positive effect on the lion's longevity. So logic says you should provide the proof/evidence that supports the shooting of young lions as a non-detrimental effect on the lion, and I will be the first one to jump up and scream. My friend, this has nothing to do with antis or the cards they have dealt! This has to do with proper lion management practices, that are supported by the best science available at the moment. Aaron Neilson Global Hunting Resources 303-619-2872: Cell globalhunts@aol.com www.huntghr.com |
