quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
We don't weigh lion, just leopards...... The skulls are rough measured in the field by the Ph if the client wants to know. Otherwise, all trophies are measured at the head office trophy dpt by PH's and exceptional trophies by a master measurer. As I said, maybe we are measuring too conservatively

the full measurements of the 20 13/16 skull is:
Length = 12 14/16
Width = 7 15/16

even if we say 13" + 8" it is still only 21"

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
At best any individual on these forums who travels to an area and shoots one lion off of a property in Africa will at best make a guess as to the age of the lion.

However...exact age is not needed to contribute to good conservation. Age categories can be learned to be recognized fairly easily with a little homework. Five and greater lions exhibit enough distiguishable phenotypic characteristics to minimalize the margin of error most of the time. And for the record...all of the lions we (Aaron, I & other LCTF members) criticized on AR were known to be young by the PH's that took them BEFORE the shot was fired.

The most educated and refined theories as to a lion's age will have to be determined by the individuals that are managing the concession. These people should be developing what is referred to as "trend data".

Exactly...this is what Bwanamich has been practicing and preaching for a long time now.

Here is the hard part for people to understand. This trend data is almost useless when used in a different area.

I think USELESS is a bit too strong. Certainly there will be differences.

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I think USELESS is a bit too strong. Certainly there will be differences.

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On a side note your point as to only five lions being adequate for learning pheotypes within an area I would have to disagree. If you use phenotypic characteristics from a small pool to judge what cats get killed you may just be implementing a selective harvest that can extinguish a genotype.

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NOT...if those phenotypes shot correlate well with the specific males who will likely not or have passed the age of passing on their traits.

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Originally posted by smarterthanu:

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NOT...if those phenotypes shot correlate well with the specific males who will likely not or have passed the age of passing on their traits.

Excellent! As if guessing lion ages on the hoof wasn't hard enough now we will be able to know whether a cat is undersexed enough for killing. If you know exactly how much sex a cat is having are you realy hunting a free range lion?

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Sir,
You made some valid points earlier...I agreed with you. Now...I am not sure where you are coming from.

Males are usually kicked out of prides as 2 year olds. 2-4 year old lions wonder as nomads in small coalitions and sometimes singly. These young males probably breed with the odd females that are with out a pride or maybe even the odd pride female when the pride-male is on walk about. Pride holding males are ~5-7 usually. They breed the majority of females. Males 8 & > are generally reproductively unsound...doesn't matter if they breed or not. Males that are 6-7 that are not holding a pride are probably not for a reason...they are inferior to current pride males.

So...if you limit shooting to 6 and greater of NON-pride-holding males...you are probably not affecting the natuaral selection of the gene pool. Phenotypic characteristics with experience can get you into this age range with ~90% correctness.

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Sir,
First let me state that I am NOT trying to say that I am smarterthanu.

Secondly, let me say that almost every medical decision made today is based on small population trends from small population studies and restrospective reports. I am not saying that they are the end-all-beat-all last word as sometimes they get it wrong. But, they are the best thing we have to go on in most instances and more often than not...they work for the general population.

This ain't medicine.

At best these are assumptions for lions studied in one region and now you beleive it is perfectly OK to transfer these conclusions onto all lion populations.

They are based on multiple region studies. Not all inclusive...but multiple rgion.

The truth is some lions operate populations in areas where there is no "pride" structure and females most commonly hunt and range alone.

Agreed! But an exception rather than the rule.

You are assuming this to be the fact so you can keep the arguement going.

There are other lion populations where 3 and 4 year old males are tolerated inside prides with a dominate male tolerating their presence.

Like these bleow???


This is a pride in the Karamoja region of Ugnada. The darker maned male is the pride holder. He is known to be 8 years old. The lighter maned male with some spots still on his hind legs is a 4 year old son that lives in the same pride and is tolerated.

Here is the other kicker, some males get kicked out of a pride only to come back later and retake it.

Agreed! Probably does happen from time-to-time. Sir, you are citing exceptions not the rules. After we fix the hard stuff...we can go on to the impossible...if you catch my drift.

If every arguement has exceptions you pretty much have no rules.

Most male lions 8+ years of age are perfectly capable of copulating with a female.

Copulation is one thing...pregnancy is an altogether different thing. And...since I have read most of the data out there...you have no idea either when the average male throughout all of Africa goes sterile.

Whether he goes sterile or not matters very little. He will still partake in infanticide and behave just like a regular lion. He doesn't read the medical journals.

Basicly there have been plenty of lions all over the african continent that have died without a tooth left in their head and not a smudge of black anywhere on their nose pad.

And you accused me of assumptions! Unless you are The Almighty Hisself...you cannot validate this statement. Although, I am not saying the black-nose pad is the end-all-beat-all either.

But because someone did a lion study involving one population of lions in Ngorogoro now everyone believes only a black nosed lion is a mature lion.

FYI...the bulk of the study was conducted in the Serengeti National Park with input from the Selous, Tarangire, Niassa National Park in Mosambique, and Hawage in Zim.

OKYDOKY. Then lets see their data and see how many individuals deviated from their ideal nose color. If they say none did then you know as well as I that this was crappy science and they are cooking the books. Now lets see how many were studied in hunting concessions, individuals that live in neither park areas or hunting concessions, or what these cat's diets were, or even better the percent of day spent in daylight to percent of day spent under darkness.

As for your assumption that a PH will know with %90 correctness how old a lion is, I doubt the number is that high.

A trained PH that is worth his salt will!

I guess you didn't learn anything from my aging deer example.

Now assuming he is an ethical PH he will more than likely be trying to shoot as old a lion as he can find for us, but the reality again isn't all that good.

Sir, That is an incorrect statement. If they know which end of the elephant the tits are on...they can keep from shootin' a 2 or 3 year old. And if they have seen a lion or two and tried to learn a little...they won't miss a 4 year old. And that sir is what we have been seeing over in the Hunt Report section...2 & 3 year olds...inexcusable! You know, if we just stop that...we have gone a long way.

?

Very often our shots at lion can be less than a few seconds in low light under high pressure situations. That alone will effect any humans judgement no matter how prepared he may be.

If you are NOT sure...don't pull the trigger.

Nobody can be sure! Sure we can maked educated guesses but there is no sure bet. That's why its hunting! That's part of the appeal of cat hunting. Cat hunting for most is a story hard work and breaf moments of excitement, and not being sure! If you want to make hunters miserable you will succeed with this outlook.

I am glad that you and many others on this site are so interested in managing the sustained killing of lions. That is a great start.

Sir,
Why don't you e-mail and become a member of the LCTF and advise us???

But the reality is we have to have PH's and managers in Africa that behave as scientists that collect population specific data to make specific management decisions for their populations only.

This a good thing!

Yes. Make note of the word "only". Its important.

The fact that lion management is dictated by national governments, treaties, and even worse the foriegn governments, are almost insuring that lion managemnt will fail.

Agreed!!!

I can gaurantee if management was was left up only to each operator and they decided the number, sex and age structure of what cats get shot, you would see a very wide range of cats you would not think fall within your criteria for shooting, but are perfectly OK.

For some...that would be true...for others...they would fail miserably. BTW...nobody forces an operator to shoot a single cat out of their blocks.

So here is my question. If you are hunting lion and you have a male that looks to be at least six years old but is feeding all by himself and you haven't even seen a trace of a female around him for days, How do you determine whether he is the "pride male"?

First, let me first say there is NO fool-proof way...as you know. But, if the operators are out in there blocks alot, keeping notes of known prides and their males, if they are baiting and watching these males for a while before shooting, and if they are using game cameras to monitor baits and see what is happening while they are not there...they can minimize the taking of pride males.[QUOTE]

For most this is an impossible task. Lions roam they many of them will spend time in other concessions besides your own. Plus you have teritorial overlap, and a mountian of other curcumstances called life that will change the social dynamics of these cats in a matter of a few hours. But mean while the super PH who has to run a camp, keep dozens of other hunters happy who aren't even after a lion, all while remaining omniscient of what every single male lion is doing that roams through his concession.

Lane in Red above.