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As best I can tell I am the only one between the two of us that has any experience manging wild animal herds

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Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
this has turned into a terrific thread.

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They will not send a picture of an exception because they are not sure but outright shooting a known young lion will be used against you.

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And BTW...the offer still stands STU...if you want to have input in the LCTF...you are welcome to work with us.

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505,

Now I understand why I see you and STU on so many threads all over the AR forums stirring up shit and playing the devil's advocate.

You two brothers are just like a couple older nomad lions with out a pride...just wondering around stirring up shit. I have watched y'all on many a thread.

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The longer you play into the ranks of the anti-hunters I will not beat your drum.

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Sir,

I am NOT alienating anyone. I welcome both of you. I have seen that 505 is a great hunter. I applaud all of his accomplishments.

I just said things have become clearer as to why I see y'all tag team all the time.

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Originally posted by smarterthanu:

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STU - Overall the Bwana is spot on! Lions often will stay on bait for 2-4 days at a time, even longer, if the meat wagon keeps coming.

I have only seen a lion stay on bait that long one time. I just had a client do an 18 day hunt for lion in which 5 different males were located. The only two that stayed on a bait for 48 hours straight were two immature males.

You don't have to watch em for 48 hrs, a trail cam will do the job nicely. Likely but NOT always, if the lion has a pride, the pride will eventually show up.
I don't think yall understand what the actual dynmanics of a male lions territory can be. Very often males control many small prides scattered over long distances. These females do not know or hunt with these other females. They are completely different family units. The males spend days away from female groups to tend other female groups and patrol massive territories. This idea that a male stays right around a group of females constantly and they all feed together is the exception and not the rule.
Again, its just a guideline, its not a fact. I too agree that the 2nd lion pictured is a shooter in a heartbeat! But that doesn't make Bwana's advice to wait and see about a pride/cubs irrelevant. But, it would be awfully hard for alot of folks to do, and that I understand. At least no one can claim the shooting of this lion, is a young/immature male that should have been avoided all-together.

Exceptions to every rule are possible, just as the old lion pictured appears to have spots. Obviously it either appears that way, or there's some goofy reason why he still has em, but he's clearly not a young lion that would normally still have spots.

This was my point exactly but we are setting all these stringent guidelines that are just going to cause massive conflict within ranks of hunters. Even though I agree the spotted cat would get a bullet, plenty would disagree and have a leg to stand on because they found out he had spots. By the way Bwanna didn't say he was going to wait around for 48 hours and see what kind of cats fed with this one when in reality that cat could be a pride male also.

I'm not sure anyone knows the average mortality age of a wild lion,
Average age of mortality of wild lions not in a hunting area is 4. So why are these cats on average dying at an age below six but the populations stay stable? But if we kill one below six the entire continent of Africa is in danger of melting down.

I'm sure its all over the board for numerous reasons.

Lastly, Dr. Easter has previously explained why the ideal age to harvest a lion is 6 yrs or older. Its not just a guess, it has vaildity, and it should be adhered to as closely as possible.

I agree. I love hunting old animals they are typicaly very smart animals and offer me the challenge that I love, unless you hunt where Bwanna does and they just lay around a bait for 48 hours begging to get shot. But my point to all of this that I have written is this. If you set quotas right it doesn't matter how old that cat is you whack. We have been sucked into this divisive debate that was picked not by hunters but by anti-hunters, and we have all fallen into it. Anti hunters know that if they can convince the non-hunting public that killing a male lion kills cute little lion babies then the non-hunting public will turn against lion hunting. Now would someone like to bring up the quota stategy that has been used in the Zim Zambezi valley for lion and ask why their lion populations have sky rocketed. It wasn't because they only shot old males kicked out of prides. Believe me they still shoot any male they choose. The fact is set propper quotas and do not corrupt them and your lion population will do fine no matter what lion you whack.

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I have been in contact with the top and I can tell you--WRONG if they send pictures other than what they been sending they will be ignored. The scientist will vote against us seeing the young lions shot they will ignore the anti's if they send crap pictures. You may be right on some of the science you have been talking about and I am man enough to say you are but here sir you are wrong. The antis will not win without the scientist and the scientist are on our side if we use common sense.

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I have been in contact with the top and I can tell you--WRONG if they send pictures other than what they been sending they will be ignored. The scientist will vote against us seeing the young lions shot they will ignore the anti's if they send crap pictures. You may be right on some of the science you have been talking about and I am man enough to say you are but here sir you are wrong. The antis will not win without the scientist and the scientist are on our side if we use common sense.

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As an accomplished wildlife biologist yourself sir...why would you lump the lion biologists into the anti-hunting group. I assure you that some are are not and many see the value in hunting.

Don't put words in my mouth. I lumped you into the anti-hunting group.

In the short period of time we have been operating...we have already made progress. What have you done to stop the decline in lions and bring both sides (hunters & scientists...NOT anti's) to the table???

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SMU - I'm sorry if you have only seen a lion stay on bait for over 48 hrs, one time. I've seen it many times, so I'm not sure what to tell ya?

I assure you, I totally understand the dynamics of a pride, the total AREA they can range, etc, etc. We have discussed this all before. Certainly male lions, who have a pride, can and are often away from a pride for long periods of time. The females, my or may not show up, etc, etc. I was referring to a guideline, not an absolute. If I saw lion #2 at my bait, and unless I already somehow KNEW for sure he was holding a pride with dependent cubs, I'm shooting him straightaway! I have often said I somewhat disagree with Bwanamich and some of their ideals, but I still appreciate what they are doing, and I certainly am not criticising them for it.
That is my point also. Bwana claims to know what works for managing lions in his area and that sounds great, but now all hunters must use the same plan. Now there are a huge number of hunters who won't stand a chance in hell of ever killing a lion. Not all lions behave the way they do where Bwanna hunts. That was my point also.

SMU, you will have to correct me if I am wrong, cause very possibly I am. I know you've hunted lion in the Save, not sure where else? Bwana hunts mainly in some very good/wild areas of TZ, I personally have hunted both, and many other places in between! Without question, I will tell you that lions from the Save act much differently than the lions in more wild/remote places of Zambia/Tanzania. Lions like those in the Save are much more weary, much more cautious, and without question that's because they see/hear and are associated with people and hunting on a much more frequent basis. Places like the Save, I agree, a good male lion is less likely to stay on bait for an extended period of time. They are often more nocturnal, etc. On the flip side, I kept a lion that we did shoot, on bait in Tanzania for exactly 7 days, a full 7 days! Of course he walked 1/2 mile to get water, and sometimes he was back in the long grass, but we could find him ON the bait, every day, for 7 days in a row. I've seen the same thing in Zambia on numerous occasions,and I see the lions in these "wild" places, acting much differently than the lions in places like the Save, or areas similar to it. I think the mistake that Bwanamich is making, is applying the things that have worked for them in TGT, to the rest of Africa, without consideration of the differences. I think perhaps you are doing the same.

Now if you know all wild lions live to 4 on average, you know more than anyone else, including the leading scientists, and certainly more than I. I try to deal with what I know for certain, strictly from personal experience, the time I've spent hunting lion for the past 16 yrs, and the time I've spent with the likes of Dr. White observing the Zambian Lion Project, the conversations I personally had with Dr. Craig Packer, Dr. Colleen Begg, Dr. Luke Hunter and Dr. Guy Balme. Every single expert that I know, that I have talked to or dealt with all agree, and Lane has previously put it in plain english. The hunting/shooting of young/immature lions, those that are less than 5 yrs old, is and should be an unacceptable management practice, as it pertains to the longevity of the wild lion. Now certainly, if your data, and any collaborating data from the scientific experts you are working with says differently, please bring it to our attention. I assure you, I would be the first one to pay attention, and support it, if the evidence/science said it.

Then ask those scientists why lion populations in the zambezi skyrocketed when they have been shooting young lions and pride males for decades and still are.

Dude, those of us involved with the LCTF, don't always agree on everything either. Bwanamich and I often disagree! But we both support eachother, because we recognize that we do bring experience, data, and other important values to the table, as it pertains to the African Lion. I don't agree with everything the NRA or SCI does or says, but I certainly support them as a whole. I would hope you would recognize that sometimes you might dis-agree with us, but overall the LCTF is working to preserve the lion and the longevity of lion hunting all across Africa. We look for support and experience, not alienation of anyone.