quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

a guy who thinks volunteering time to SCI and Du makes him more of a conservationist than me

Is that not your words?

quote:

STU - Obviously you're right, we're ALL wrong, and we can & should all agree on that!

Secondly, the BIGGEST issue facing the lion is habitat loss/human encroachment, period! Now I'm sure I'm wrong about that too! Hunting, and Lion Hunting in particular is the ONLY thing stopping/slowing this unfortunate train wreck across much of Africa, not all, but much. The full explanation of which, I have made on previous threads. If you read em, you'll understand my point!

There are millions and millions of acres of perfeclty suitable lion habittat without a single lion living there.

I'm certain you have donated more money than Gerry has, to DU or any other organization. Even though Gerry is a friend and client of mine, one who has booked exactly $154,000.00 worth of hunts with me, just in the past 4 weeks alone, with deposits paid! I just happen to know a little about his financial position, and his generosity to DU/SCI over the past. But certainly, you know for a fact that you have donated more than him? Not that it matters, but I think it shows that you are willing to say anything, whether you know its true or not!

Why would you post other peoples fiscal business to the public?

You obviously know more than Dr. Easter about the science of animals, even though he's a large animal VET who specializes in that sort of stuff.

I don't argue horses with him. He doesn't make his living working with lions. Vet medicine has nothing to do with wild lion management and behavior unless maybe a disease occurs and a vet is brought in to study it. As best I can tell this is not the case here.

You obviously know more about the science behind the lion than all of the leading lion scientists in the world, that's quite an accomplishment!

Actually I have never proclaimed this. What I have proclaimed is that you can not take these scientists findings and declare them universal and all lion populations fall under their findings. Just as my management techniques used in Texas for a deer more than likely are useless in Canada. Just like you mentioned earlier Bwanna's harvest technique is pretty much useless in the Save but he wants everyone to implement it.

Lastly my friend, and pay close attention to this one! You obviously know more about me and my business practices than anyone else, as well!


Now what the hell are you talking about. The only thing I know about your business is you book hunts and some dude name gerry spent 154 K with you.
I'm fine with a spirited debate, and I appreciate that you disagree with what we say. That's part of life, that's part of any controversial issue. Obviously I would rather you help us, that standing over there throwing stones at us, but I can't make you do what you don't believe in.

But let's you and I get one thing real FUCKIN straight! If you are gonna accuse me of unethical business practices, like selling more lion hunts than what quota is available for, I suggest you have some proof to back up your claim? That kind of crap is crossing the line!


Are you Bwanna?? Did I accuse you of selling hunts over quota????? Do you know how to read????
First and foremost, I have always been very much against that, and I have made no bones about it, with any potential outfitter I have ever worked with. That's scumbag bullshit! Second, your unsubstantiated claim, could be regarded as slanderous.

How is it BS? Go back and read what Bwana said, and wash the sand out of your vagina.

And third, I suggest you hop your happy ass in the truck with your brother, when he comes up here this fall for his eastern Plains deer hunt, and look me in the eye and accuse me of being unethical in the treatment of my clients! Obviously that's one lesson you've never been taught.

Why do I need to get in a truck and confront you with something I haven't confronted you with here???????Did you shoot up at the gym??? Are you remotely sane? Slow down, go and read what Bwana wrote. Better yet let me quote him.
So if you have a quota of 1 lion (which would probably be what is required!) and you shoot it on the 1st hunt and the next 3 hunters along do see a >6 lion on their trip but are not allowed to shoot it because your quota is done, is that desirable?

What are people supposed to assume from this quote??? There is one lion on quota but Bwanna says he has 4 lion hunters.



I'm done with you! Some people just can't see the "forest for the trees"!

quote:

nope???? you did not type that?

quote:

the only inferred BS is by you. I for one bow to it as you have never and will never make a mistake and if you did you would never admit it anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:
Well it looks like the whole darn thing has melted down into insanity.

imagine if you were the poor horse laying on Layne's table with its guts eyeball hanging out, waiting for him to come back from bs'ing on AR.


It was just a corneal repair.

quote:

quote:
All bones elongate or get bigger by growth cartilage in areas called growth plates or physes. As we all know...as an animal reaches maturity...the bones stop elongating. When the bones stop elongating or growing...this means that the growth plates have matured and "closed"...they actually go completely away. Major skull growth in all species...actually takes place very early in life. The growth plates in the skull are called "sutures". The sutures in lion skulls are pretty much fused by 4 years of age making elongation beyond 4 years minimal (some elongation may occur due to bone remodeling but minimal).



quote:
So...one could conclude based on Aarons measurements of known mature lion skulls...that any skull that measures less than ~24.5" is likely from a cat 4 or less.



Lane,
I feel I understand your first statement, that if a lions skull "sutures" are fused that he is most likely 4+ years. Do you have any research data confirming this 4yr number? Also, where could one get a detailed pic of a lions skull where the "sutures" are fully fused?

I do not understand your 2nd statement, I take it that by starting with "So..." you are stating that your first statement confirms Aarons assesment? Please explain.

quote:

this has turned into a terrific thread.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
this has turned into a terrific thread.


quote:
505,

Now I understand why I see you and STU on so many threads all over the AR forums stirring up shit and playing the devil's advocate.

You two brothers are just like a couple older nomad lions with out a pride...just wondering around stirring up shit. I have watched y'all on many a thread.



Dang, I go to work for a couple of hours and come back and realize I missed all the fun.
Lane,
Pardon me for being blunt, but your statement above is chickenshit. I posted my statement in complete honesty. The little guy eating popcorn was put up because I looked forward to coming back and reading ALL sides of this debate. This had and has remained an excellent thread. Tremendous points have been made by some, and some foolishness has been spewed by others. I have seen where STU has fallen into some of the same traps he has accused others of and consequently am suspect of that data. You on the other hand, have yet to make a logical arguement in my opinion. Your posts are laden with emotion and personal offense and do not further the cause of the LCTF or the lion for that matter. It is easy to say that killing young lions is bad, but anyone with any sense and a little experience realizes that the issue is much more complicated than that. If anyone wants to have an honest discussion about lion hunting and management, they should take the emotion out of it, compile, organize and disseminate masses of factual data, come up with a management quota, adhere to it religiosuly, document and examine the results, adjust the management quota accordingly and get the numbers where they need to be. You present this data to the powers that be and as the old saying goes, "the numbers don't lie". What you and others on these threads are doing is fighting a PR battle riddled with emotion. Those battles are ALWAYS "no win" situations for those in the right (which I believe your cause is) because the facts are never considered. You and the others freaking out everytime a pic of a "young" lion shows up and starting a multi-page tirade about how fucked up recent lion hunting is, does nothing positive for hunting or lions. One of the signs of a true zealot is when one refuses to concede that a point of view from any other angle could be valid. I would challenge you to give me an example in history where zealotry has ended in anything other than defeat.

quote:

I would like to vote for this being the greatest thread in the history of AR.

quote:

quote:
Well it looks like the whole darn thing has melted down into insanity.

imagine if you were the poor horse laying on Layne's table with its guts hanging out, waiting for him to come back from bs'ing on AR.

quote:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:



you got it out of context

It should be:

Aaron, Lane, & Gerry =>
and
<= smarterthanu & 505 Gibbs

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:
Well it looks like the whole darn thing has melted down into insanity.

imagine if you were the poor horse laying on Layne's table with its guts eyeball hanging out, waiting for him to come back from bs'ing on AR.


It was just a corneal repair.



there, fixed it for you, sorry, my mistake. Lighten up Lane, if your vertical, it's a blessed day.

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:

quote:

I am sure the LCTF would welcome you to join and head up that fight. We don't have the muscle to fight it all yet but if you are interested in fighting for that ban we would welcome you and give it full support.

I don't know how to do that. I have no experience or connections in politics.

quote:

With all do respect that is an excuse.

No that is the truth.

You are placing a fair amount of energy typing on this thread. Is that because of passion about the topic of the thread? If so then that passion redirected into the correct channels can make a difference. A difference that could potentially benefit both the African Lion and the hunters.

You are probably right. I thought the LCTF was a correct chanel. Now I see they are nothing but emotionaly driven and unorganized. I will try and go find different pathways to achieve and help. But I will still be coming around here to let other hunters know how badly these men are going to screw them on the future of lion hunting.

I have no "political" experience either yet I have gotten two laws changed in Alaska, IHS loan repayment criteria changed for health care providers in remote areas, and with others help, a voting seat for Physician Assistants on the Alaska State Medical Board.

You really don't know what you can do until you try and be part of a solution.

I respectfully submit that arguing with other folks who appear to be trying to be part of a solution is not very productive.

Solution to what? Dividing the hunting industry?

Your mileage may vary!!

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
Now I see they are nothing but emotionaly driven and unorganized.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:
Well it looks like the whole darn thing has melted down into insanity.

imagine if you were the poor horse laying on Layne's table with its guts eyeball hanging out, waiting for him to come back from bs'ing on AR.


It was just a corneal repair.

there, fixed it for you, sorry, my mistake. Lighten up Lane, if your vertical, it's a blessed day.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

quote:
All bones elongate or get bigger by growth cartilage in areas called growth plates or physes. As we all know...as an animal reaches maturity...the bones stop elongating. When the bones stop elongating or growing...this means that the growth plates have matured and "closed"...they actually go completely away. Major skull growth in all species...actually takes place very early in life. The growth plates in the skull are called "sutures". The sutures in lion skulls are pretty much fused by 4 years of age making elongation beyond 4 years minimal (some elongation may occur due to bone remodeling but minimal).



quote:
So...one could conclude based on Aarons measurements of known mature lion skulls...that any skull that measures less than ~24.5" is likely from a cat 4 or less.



Lane,
I feel I understand your first statement, that if a lions skull "sutures" are fused that he is most likely 4+ years. Do you have any research data confirming this 4yr number? Also, where could one get a detailed pic of a lions skull where the "sutures" are fully fused?

I do not understand your 2nd statement, I take it that by starting with "So..." you are stating that your first statement confirms Aarons assesment? Please explain.

quote:

this has turned into a terrific thread.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
this has turned into a terrific thread.


quote:
505,

Now I understand why I see you and STU on so many threads all over the AR forums stirring up shit and playing the devil's advocate.

You two brothers are just like a couple older nomad lions with out a pride...just wondering around stirring up shit. I have watched y'all on many a thread.



Dang, I go to work for a couple of hours and come back and realize I missed all the fun.
Lane,
Pardon me for being blunt, but your statement above is chickenshit. I posted my statement in complete honesty. The little guy eating popcorn was put up because I looked forward to coming back and reading ALL sides of this debate. This had and has remained an excellent thread. Tremendous points have been made by some, and some foolishness has been spewed by others. I have seen where STU has fallen into some of the same traps he has accused others of and consequently am suspect of that data. You on the other hand, have yet to make a logical arguement in my opinion. Your posts are laden with emotion and personal offense and do not further the cause of the LCTF or the lion for that matter. It is easy to say that killing young lions is bad, but anyone with any sense and a little experience realizes that the issue is much more complicated than that. If anyone wants to have an honest discussion about lion hunting and management, they should take the emotion out of it, compile, organize and disseminate masses of factual data, come up with a management quota, adhere to it religiosuly, document and examine the results, adjust the management quota accordingly and get the numbers where they need to be. You present this data to the powers that be and as the old saying goes, "the numbers don't lie". What you and others on these threads are doing is fighting a PR battle riddled with emotion. Those battles are ALWAYS "no win" situations for those in the right (which I believe your cause is) because the facts are never considered. You and the others freaking out everytime a pic of a "young" lion shows up and starting a multi-page tirade about how fucked up recent lion hunting is, does nothing positive for hunting or lions. One of the signs of a true zealot is when one refuses to concede that a point of view from any other angle could be valid. I would challenge you to give me an example in history where zealotry has ended in anything other than defeat.

quote:

I would like to vote for this being the greatest thread in the history of AR.

quote:

quote:
Well it looks like the whole darn thing has melted down into insanity.

imagine if you were the poor horse laying on Layne's table with its guts hanging out, waiting for him to come back from bs'ing on AR.

quote:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:



you got it out of context

It should be:

Aaron, Lane, & Gerry =>
and
<= smarterthanu & 505 Gibbs

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:
Well it looks like the whole darn thing has melted down into insanity.

imagine if you were the poor horse laying on Layne's table with its guts eyeball hanging out, waiting for him to come back from bs'ing on AR.


It was just a corneal repair.



there, fixed it for you, sorry, my mistake. Lighten up Lane, if your vertical, it's a blessed day.

Lane,
Above quoted is every post I have made on this thread, no need to count, there are 7 compared to your 33. I would like for you to point out what facts or opinions I have said that you disagree with and what would warrant your responses to me. Or is it just that I am related to someone that you are angry and frustrated at? Or possibly it is because I have failed to acquiesce to your position as moderator/expert on this subject. You posted a thread titled "Come ye all critics", are those who adamantly disagree with you or your organization not welcome here? Has this discussion now devolved (on all fronts) to a place where some are threatening to do violence to others for their opinions and some things they did not even say? This has been a terrific thread and I have learned much, but some peoples behaviour is becoming shameful.