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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Conservation African Lions Hunting Management And Ecology Lion Skull Size vs. Lion Age!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Brad, Help me out here. I've read this whole thread, even the parts that descended down the road of a pissing contest. How about a cliff note answer to these three questions. Specifically what do you see as the problem with the LCTF? What is your specific problem with Lane? What is your specific problem with Aaron? I must be too dense to see what the problem is other than a poorly handled and timed critique of wrdhunter's Lion in a hunt report. Thanks Jim
______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Brad, I have tried being nice to you guys in this entire thread...which by the way y'all have hi-jacked...it got me no where...from now on I am calling a spade a spade. STU made a stupid observation...I gave him a smart-@$$ reply. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Brad, I had asked Bwanamich to post this via PM for your and Ben's benefit. Does that not count as reference material being posted? I do not know of anatomy books specific to the lion. But all cat skulls are basically the same in regards to anatomy. Here is a conversation I had with Karyl Whitman a while back regarding lion skull growth. There is only one paper on it and it is old. Kary Whitman speaking: "Hi Lane, For the skull, Smuts et al 1978 suggest that the interfrontal suture is fully closed if not obliterated sometime between 5 & 6 yrs—although that should be taken with some caution due to the nature and number of the samples . I am putting together a proposal to examine this further. Skull length & width asymptotes by 36 mo of age. Cheers, Karyl" Hopefully the LCTF will be able to help with that study...one of the things we have on our agenda. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I am in the process of reading this, thanks to Bwanamich and anyone else who had to do with posting this. However, I am still waiting for him to answer the questions I asked.
Lane, you are a moderator, if you feel this conversation is in the wrong place, you can move it. Just because someone does not agree with you doesn't mean that they have "hijacked the thread".  | |||
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Thanks for the answer Brad. I could have been denser on the phone if I tried.  ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Urban Dictionary: Thread Jacking-Taking over a thread on a message board by taking a part of the original posted topic, twisting it around and "hijacking" the thread itself. What happens is that the original content contained in the post becomes moot and whatever the "Thread Jacker" has manipulated the content to be becomes the new content thereby "hijacking" the original intent of post. People now respond to the "thread jacker's" input and the that becomes the focus of the tread. Know Your Meme: Definition Threadjacking is a deliberate attempt at steering a discussion away from the original topic by bringing up another, which may or may not be relevant to the content of original post. Depending on the context, threadjacking can be used as a timely ice-breaker in an awkward situation (especially if you are the topic creator) or more commonly, as a form of cheap amusement for trolls. The origional name of Thread: Lion Skull Size vs. Lion Age! See the content of all posts after the first couple of pages 505 Gibbs and smarterthanu. I rest my case.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Now...Brad and/or Ben, Specifically...what question did you have (that pertains to the original topic or even just the lion) that went unanswered? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Gentlemen I would like to congratulate you for getting this very important forum installed here on AR!  In this particular exchange on the skull size as an indicator of age, I find one fly in the butter. This indicator is only available as the result of the necropsy of a dead lion! Now I’m not saying this is not important in record books, but only to determine the size of the lion. My question to you folks who are far more learned than I, how does this effect the shooting of young lions? As has been said in this thread, different areas have different genetics! An example of this is Botswana where in the desert areas very large lions have no mane to speak of with most of it around the base of the neck and under the chin. With this being said, here on AR I have seen people being chastised for shooting young lions with the only indicator of age being the lack of mane!  Let me say here that I did not make vote on Lane’s poll simply because I am not a lion hunter, and simply do not have the experience or a DVM degree to back anything I might say, and it would only be a guess, on my part, having simply looked at a lot of live lions. In my layman's opinion, the only way to be sure, from what I'm gathering on this thread, is by a cross section of a tooth, but that too would be from a lion already shot! So I suppose what I’m asking here is since all of the outside indicators of age seem to be flawed, how do we judge a mature lion? ……………………………………………………  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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Aging the African Lion!!! Mac, Did you read the this thread in the same forum? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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No lane, I must admit I only read the first page of this thread, not realizing it had 12 pages! My question was in regard to what I read on that one page. I just opened the first thing I came to, to see how this forum was progressing, nothing more. I will not be posting on this forum for the simple fact that I have no experience with hunting lions and am not likely to start at this age, and finacial status. I do know quite a bit about pride dynamics, and have some opinions about the way the game laws should be drawn to insure their continued existence, but we will not see that in all lion habitat of different countries. Any suggestions would be nothing more than opinion on my part, and I'm not interested in the re-executing of dead zebras, and name calling, I’ve had quite enough of that! Hope you guys get some help for the lions! Good luck! ......................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Mac - No one said skull size has anything to do with the shooting of young lions, prior to their death????? Obviously it can only be a potential indicator, after death! Second, some of the biggest, most beautiful maned (Wild) lions I have ever seen have come from the Kalahari Desert of Botswana! To say the desert of Botswana only produces small maned lions is completely innacurate. Many of the "outside" indicators of age are NOT flawed at all. I just think that perhaps you have not been following all the threads. Which I totally understand, as I can't follow/read all of this stuff either. | |||
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Frostbit - I don't think 505 or STU have anything personal against me, Lane or the LCTF. Obviously we don't see eye to eye, and obviously I don't think the two of them understand what it is they are arguing against. Just a quick example, STU appears to be in favor of quotas vs age-based harvest. And at the same time he has railed against me, saying we are trying to "control" hunters? Fact is, quotas are the CONTROL, a control that we and the "experienced" scientific community are actually AGAINST! If everyone in the industry is, was and would have been shooting ONLY older/mature lions, the need for quotas would be un-necessary. A fact that we the LCTF and the entire scientific community agree on. So I ask you, who really is in favor of "controlling the hunter"? Its this sort of example, that if folks would just take the time needed to truly understand the dynamics of the issue and the science/experience behind it, they might likely agree with us, before making rash decisions about our intentions. If one would only look back over all the threads on the subject, the WikiSpace that Lane made available for public viewing, etc. All of the questions they are asking have long since been answered. Even as recently as the link posted by Bwanamich. One can't simply ignore an answer and pretend it doesn't exist, simply because its not what one wants to hear. They will say we have not answered their questions, but if you do have the time to read this entire thread, and many others on the subject, I think you will see we have answered these same questions many times. 505 and I have a personal relationship, he's hunting with us again this fall in eastern Colorado. We obviously just don't agree on this subject. I guess we'll just have to dis-agree! I'll stick with the science that I have studied, followed, learned and participated in, plus the 16 yrs I have spent hunting lion all across eastern/southern Africa, as my guide. They'll have to decide what is their's! | |||
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You are incorrect in your assumption two ways. First I am against power of control given to just a very few people over wide ranges and variables that will deam the science useless. A scientist studying a lion in Botswana has no business whatsoever instructing harvest regulations for anyone outside of his study area period. To do so is bad science and more dangerous than shooting underage lion. I gaurantee that fact. Second, telling PH's that they can kill as many lions as they see fit 6 years old or older is a policy that is much more open to abuse than a strictly regulated non corrupted quota system. If a PH is told he can shoot as many lions in a year as he wants as long as it is 6+ years of age and he makes a mistake %50 percent of the time out of 6 lions shot in a year then he has killed 3 lions that should not have been shot. If a strict quota of 1 is set and the PH screws that up %100 of the time only one lion was incorrectly shot. Now when it comes time for exportation of the 3 lions mistakinly shot all he has to do is bribe the man responsible for interpreting the age data and all three still get exported. With the quota system He can only screw up as many times as he has quota for lion. Period. What I am trying to say is Bwana knows what works for lions in his area and he should not be telling people what to do in other areas that have no similar variables to what he has and similarly people operating in areas seperate of Bwanas have no business telling him how to manage his lions. The fact that a man sitting in Colorado thinking he should decide the management of megafauna seven thousand miles away in an area the size of The United States is very dangerous. Only an omniscient being could pull that off. | |||
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