quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

remember as ugly as it sounds you are not selling conservation first

I disagree and I am directly partnered with my community in business who own 20% of the development company and the whole project has been about conservation and the successes we have had to date.

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Originally posted by stradling:
I understand a bit of your struggle

as I worked on a job just west of you on the angolan line

and ya that was wild africa to

so wild we planned to fly folks in and abandon them for weeks at a time kinda like alaska -- no roads had to do it


saw much the same initial conditions back in 2010 working on the luiana park plan for a private development group


they were trying to open up a hunt in angola on a 20,ooo km block -- so far we have failed -- so far you have succeeded -- BIG DIFFERENCE


I have always been interested in conservation based rural development schemes

but it was there in 2010 that i first understood the full challenge-- big picture

think of the millions of usd the global donor community plowed in to save conservancy and the ensuing political mess KEEP IN MIND THAT WAS AND IS A PRIVATE UNDERTAKING [god forbid with a fence around it ]


so even when you get it done is it sustainable politically -- what might you do diffrent up you way

still we can -should not - must not quit --but in the end private enterprise will save most of the species under threat - we do have that history


as hard as it is for me to get out of my mouth

the usfws may be in the end a good thing to drive more consumptive tourism funds to local indigenous benefits as they regulate the us market

the private hunting in south africa - Namibia - Botswana is by definition of private ranch competitive supply

national game programs and usfws move slow inefficient and at worst are moved by political bend

the elephant ruling and the lion ruling are not based on hard science, rather emotionally driven politics --not helpful to wildlife or the locals

Fair Game you know that if the local village as a collective group sees no benefit someone will grab a snare and slip out a hunting and eat meat. he might any way if he can keep the neighbors from sniffing him out.

what drives all players forward is information when the camp fire community knows and believes they can capture a 2,ooo,ooo usd revenue stream you have their attention

when the hunter knows the safari operator he tends to go direct == no need for the broker [seems JDOLLAR may be an exception ]

bad actors, government kickback- scalpers marking up the ticket to low information buyers - lack of trust , due to many things including bad history between the safari operator and the tribal community --- Gokwe North comes to mind here --- are the friction or blockage that piss on the campfire

not an easy thing --education, free flow of information, transparency, and upstanding light handed regulation- under the pressure of local tribal governance national governance and global governance --- great idea hard to implement --you have my admiration my respect

god be with you for you are to travel troubled waters my friend

at the end of this journey you need a populous, vibrant, enthusiastic customer base --- or its all for not --- the only advice i can give is please --- price it to the larger market

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
it is on ice for now

the canal crossing the kwando is for the most part done and the border crossings infrastructure in place

you can now ride the ferry from zambia to angola

it would be much more practical to fly people in to say vic falls

and drive them to the concession crossing the swamp

political steps need to be taken in angola

legal code put in place to regulate the industry things were at that level

i have not worked on it for some years

but i do have one other farm project i am involved w in angola at this time

always looking for a connection to advance this idea

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when the hunter knows the safari operator he tends to go direct == no need for the broker [seems JDOLLAR may be an exception ]

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Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Much of what is being said here is true on both sides - hunters and PH's.

In Botswana the Government changed licenses radically in 2003 , Leopard went from $250 to $2500 while we were still selling at SCI , we came back with signed contracts only to find license increases of over 1000%. In many countries the government look at outfitter rates and believe they have the right to the lions share of the rate published without the expenses.

When all the countries were selling big game , competition was fierce and prices were fair . In 2001 Lions were closed in Botswana and re-opened in 2005. Before the closure we sold lion hunts at $25 000-00 , when they reopened the going rate in TZ , MZ etc was approx $45 000-00 , so we went with the fair market value only to find we were by far the lowest with an average for Botswana at $75-$125 000-00.

One person told me not all outfitters are crooks but it seemed all crooks were outfitters , this was part of the problem everybody saw the gap to jump on the $ band wagon and for the last 15 years we have seen outfitters come and go. To such an extent one hunter told me if you dont exhibit at SCI /DSC you must have fallen from grace. I have exhibited at chapter fund raisers where the exhibitor next to me has gaurenteed elephant hunts at 65 pounds and over where as in Botswana we had a national average of 54 pounds - who do think many poor souls booked with - truth or chance.

SCI and DSC with a combined 500-750 donated hunts took this number of hunts off the convention floors - how could a industry sustain itself with these massive number of cheap hunts out there.

Some Hunters showed the world bad behavior and disrespect for animals with photos of them riding dead elephants , baboons with cigars and beer tins in their hands , prolonged wounding videos , macho charging kills , and of course the shooting of research animals and iconic individuals ( imaginary or otherwise ) , and the worst case of caged lions being killed for perceived pleasure of killing not hunting.

Hunting in Africa is at the cliff's edge, it will fall off or take a deep long look at itself and partner with conservationists and other interested and affected parties and make the radical changes needed, irrespective of the will of african politics.

Personally I think we are where we were in the 1960's , only the select few will hunt in africa and wildlife will disappear in wild areas until countries kick start game ranching . ( South Africa being the leading example ) .

Hunters understand the concept of wilderness and wild areas , the average suburban housewife and IT specialist thinks the zoo is wild Africa and a park with grass the great outdoors.
They will vote for people who are anti hunting and anti guns.

Hunters will become fisherman and great story tellers to grandchildren.

quote:

Originally posted by Jan Dumon:

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Much of what is being said here is true on both sides - hunters and PH's.

In Botswana the Government changed licenses radically in 2003 , Leopard went from $250 to $2500 while we were still selling at SCI , we came back with signed contracts only to find license increases of over 1000%. In many countries the government look at outfitter rates and believe they have the right to the lions share of the rate published without the expenses.

When all the countries were selling big game , competition was fierce and prices were fair . In 2001 Lions were closed in Botswana and re-opened in 2005. Before the closure we sold lion hunts at $25 000-00 , when they reopened the going rate in TZ , MZ etc was approx $45 000-00 , so we went with the fair market value only to find we were by far the lowest with an average for Botswana at $75-$125 000-00.

One person told me not all outfitters are crooks but it seemed all crooks were outfitters , this was part of the problem everybody saw the gap to jump on the $ band wagon and for the last 15 years we have seen outfitters come and go. To such an extent one hunter told me if you dont exhibit at SCI /DSC you must have fallen from grace. I have exhibited at chapter fund raisers where the exhibitor next to me has gaurenteed elephant hunts at 65 pounds and over where as in Botswana we had a national average of 54 pounds - who do think many poor souls booked with - truth or chance.

SCI and DSC with a combined 500-750 donated hunts took this number of hunts off the convention floors - how could a industry sustain itself with these massive number of cheap hunts out there.

Some Hunters showed the world bad behavior and disrespect for animals with photos of them riding dead elephants , baboons with cigars and beer tins in their hands , prolonged wounding videos , macho charging kills , and of course the shooting of research animals and iconic individuals ( imaginary or otherwise ) , and the worst case of caged lions being killed for perceived pleasure of killing not hunting.

Hunting in Africa is at the cliff's edge, it will fall off or take a deep long look at itself and partner with conservationists and other interested and affected parties and make the radical changes needed, irrespective of the will of african politics.

Personally I think we are where we were in the 1960's , only the select few will hunt in africa and wildlife will disappear in wild areas until countries kick start game ranching . ( South Africa being the leading example ) .

Hunters understand the concept of wilderness and wild areas , the average suburban housewife and IT specialist thinks the zoo is wild Africa and a park with grass the great outdoors.
They will vote for people who are anti hunting and anti guns.

Hunters will become fisherman and great story tellers to grandchildren.

Lots of food for thought there.

quote:

they

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Originally posted by larryshores:
The Omni was sold out in 70 minutes or less.

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Originally posted by larryshores:
There certainly has been a lot of doom and gloom here related to the willingness of clients to spend money. My wife just tried to book our rooms for DSC. The Omni was sold out in 70 minutes or less.

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Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Interesting post indeed. It does amaze me that people think that as operators we have the ability to sway government decisions! Third world countries and in particular Zim is polls apart from the first world and short of living in these countries one will never get a grasp on how things work!

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Originally posted by Beretta682E:

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Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Interesting post indeed. It does amaze me that people think that as operators we have the ability to sway government decisions! Third world countries and in particular Zim is polls apart from the first world and short of living in these countries one will never get a grasp on how things work!

Given Uncle Bob and his cronies thought legally fixing retail prices and massively increasing money supply was a sustainable and stable long term policy. I truly expected Zimbabwe to offset elephant and lion revenue loss with increase fees on buffalo, leopard and plains game

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:

Personally I think we are where we were in the 1960's , only the select few will hunt in africa and wildlife will disappear in wild areas until countries kick start game ranching . ( South Africa being the leading example ) .

Hunters understand the concept of wilderness and wild areas , the average suburban housewife and IT specialist thinks the zoo is wild Africa and a park with grass the great outdoors.
They will vote for people who are anti hunting and anti guns.

Hunters will become fisherman and great story tellers to grandchildren.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
quote:
Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
doubleboy,

That is ridiculous. No safari operator should be telling you how much to give the game scout or anyone else for that matter unless you solicit his council on tipping. If the scout did a good job and was an asset to the hunt I would definitely give him a tip but not $800. on a 10 day buff I wouldn't give the whole crew minus the PH much more than that. Nothing like that has happened to me or any of my clients that I know of. This not common at all anywhere and you got hosed. Sorry!

Mark

Are you serious or what? I use the same game scouts,outfitters,services etc... as everyone uses.If I was told to pay the fellow 800 you can be sure it was not an isolated incident.

George- Sorry I have to call you up on this simply because we are the operator- we NEVER tell anyone how much to tip- we do advise if clients ask but always point out that if you decide to leave nothing that is quite fine as a tip is a tip and must be performance based. I can assure you no one has ever paid a game scout $800. I have confirmed with Rich your PH, Blake who was your appy, as well as Ray who was your camerman and no such thing happened.

I have also confirmed with Rich your Ph about his comments on ele bulls in the East and not having seen any tracks etc etc not surprisingly he says nothing was said. The same year you failed, not for lack of trying, we shot several good bulls. Sorry George one must simply stick to the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
quote:
Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
doubleboy,

That is ridiculous. No safari operator should be telling you how much to give the game scout or anyone else for that matter unless you solicit his council on tipping. If the scout did a good job and was an asset to the hunt I would definitely give him a tip but not $800. on a 10 day buff I wouldn't give the whole crew minus the PH much more than that. Nothing like that has happened to me or any of my clients that I know of. This not common at all anywhere and you got hosed. Sorry!

Mark

Are you serious or what? I use the same game scouts,outfitters,services etc... as everyone uses.If I was told to pay the fellow 800 you can be sure it was not an isolated incident.

George- Sorry I have to call you up on this simply because we are the operator- we NEVER tell anyone how much to tip- we do advise if clients ask but always point out that if you decide to leave nothing that is quite fine as a tip is a tip and must be performance based. I can assure you no one has ever paid a game scout $800. I have confirmed with Rich your PH, Blake who was your appy, as well as Ray who was your camerman and no such thing happened.

I have also confirmed with Rich your Ph about his comments on ele bulls in the East and not having seen any tracks etc etc not surprisingly he says nothing was said. The same year you failed, not for lack of trying, we shot several good bulls. Sorry George one must simply stick to the truth.

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My questions is ' how low can prices go' !

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Originally posted by Todd Williams:
George, once again, you are full of SHIT! I've hunted with CMS 4 times. Twice with Rich as PH and Blake as Appy, and twice with Blake as PH. Also twice with Ray as camera man.

I always asked for a suggestion on tips. I was NEVER TOLD what to tip anyone, by Rich, Blake, or anyone else. And I guarantee no one at CMS ever suggested $800 for the game scout. IIRC, from my last hunt with them in late 2013 for elephant bull, the game scout tip suggestion was $10 per day for a 14 day hunt ($140), and that because he worked his ass off helping the team. Again, it was a suggestion which I asked for, not a directive.

And to infer that Ray would hold back your video footage if you didn't tip him $500 really pisses me off. Ray is a professional and he deserves more respect than for you to suggest this.

You've slandered these good guys so many times now that I'm honestly surprised they continue to take you hunting.

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Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:
My guess here is that George asked how much to tip the scout and the pH has answered what the tip could be for the whole team. That would also explain why the scout did not understad why he got that much.

Everybody having any knowledge of CMS would know that they never ask a client to tip 800 US to anybody.

Its a simple but costly (for George) misunderstanding.

Good Huntig

Carl Frederik