How low can prices go.

28 March 2016, 19:43

Safari2

quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
I understand a bit of your struggle

as I worked on a job just west of you on the angolan line

and ya that was wild africa to

so wild we planned to fly folks in and abandon them for weeks at a time kinda like alaska -- no roads had to do it

saw much the same initial conditions back in 2010 working on the luiana park plan for a private development group

they were trying to open up a hunt in angola on a 20,ooo km block -- so far we have failed -- so far you have succeeded -- BIG DIFFERENCE

I have always been interested in conservation based rural development schemes

but it was there in 2010 that i first understood the full challenge-- big picture

think of the millions of usd the global donor community plowed in to save conservancy and the ensuing political mess KEEP IN MIND THAT WAS AND IS A PRIVATE UNDERTAKING [god forbid with a fence around it ]

so even when you get it done is it sustainable politically -- what might you do diffrent up you way

still we can -should not - must not quit --but in the end private enterprise will save most of the species under threat - we do have that history

as hard as it is for me to get out of my mouth

the usfws may be in the end a good thing to drive more consumptive tourism funds to local indigenous benefits as they regulate the us market

the private hunting in south africa - Namibia - Botswana is by definition of private ranch competitive supply

national game programs and usfws move slow inefficient and at worst are moved by political bend

the elephant ruling and the lion ruling are not based on hard science, rather emotionally driven politics --not helpful to wildlife or the locals

Fair Game you know that if the local village as a collective group sees no benefit someone will grab a snare and slip out a hunting and eat meat. he might any way if he can keep the neighbors from sniffing him out.

what drives all players forward is information when the camp fire community knows and believes they can capture a 2,ooo,ooo usd revenue stream you have their attention

when the hunter knows the safari operator he tends to go direct == no need for the broker [seems JDOLLAR may be an exception ]

bad actors, government kickback- scalpers marking up the ticket to low information buyers - lack of trust , due to many things including bad history between the safari operator and the tribal community --- Gokwe North comes to mind here --- are the friction or blockage that piss on the campfire

not an easy thing --education, free flow of information, transparency, and upstanding light handed regulation- under the pressure of local tribal governance national governance and global governance --- great idea hard to implement --you have my admiration my respect

god be with you for you are to travel troubled waters my friend

at the end of this journey you need a populous, vibrant, enthusiastic customer base --- or its all for not --- the only advice i can give is please --- price it to the larger market

Stradling.

Any updates on the Luiana, Angola effort? I know EWB did a game survey some months ago but have not published the results as yet. Hoping to hear some good news out of there with regards to elephant and buffalo.

A place I would love to go someday!

28 March 2016, 19:53

stradling

it is on ice for now

the canal crossing the kwando is for the most part done and the border crossings infrastructure in place

you can now ride the ferry from zambia to angola

it would be much more practical to fly people in to say vic falls

and drive them to the concession crossing the swamp

political steps need to be taken in angola

legal code put in place to regulate the industry things were at that level

i have not worked on it for some years

but i do have one other farm project i am involved w in angola at this time

always looking for a connection to advance this idea

28 March 2016, 19:57

Dogleg

How low can it go? As long as operators can price in American dollars and absorb or cash in on fluctuations that's telling me there is some room. Currency exchange has always been a factor for me. While I hear talk of deals, the price to me has actually gone up. A few years ago when people were talking about the steady increases in prices, I was watching my real cost decline by nearly half.

I'd rather be priced in local currency, and take my money where it spends best. Tourists do it all the time.

28 March 2016, 20:36

Safari2

quote:
Originally posted by stradling:
it is on ice for now

the canal crossing the kwando is for the most part done and the border crossings infrastructure in place

you can now ride the ferry from zambia to angola

it would be much more practical to fly people in to say vic falls

and drive them to the concession crossing the swamp

political steps need to be taken in angola

legal code put in place to regulate the industry things were at that level

i have not worked on it for some years

but i do have one other farm project i am involved w in angola at this time

always looking for a connection to advance this idea

There is a u tube video out showing the construction of a road thru Luiana PR. It showed a couple of herds of both elephant and buffalo crossing the track during construction. I would think Rundu in Namibia would also be a good access point as well. Flew thru there in 94' headed to Katima.

They also did a fly over in that u tube clip which shows a lot of water .. Looks a lot like the Okavango.

Do you know if there is a tourist lodge in the Park?

Thanks!!

28 March 2016, 21:15

Safaris Botswana Bound

Much of what is being said here is true on both sides - hunters and PH's.

In Botswana the Government changed licenses radically in 2003 , Leopard went from $250 to $2500 while we were still selling at SCI , we came back with signed contracts only to find license increases of over 1000%. In many countries the government look at outfitter rates and believe they have the right to the lions share of the rate published without the expenses.

When all the countries were selling big game , competition was fierce and prices were fair . In 2001 Lions were closed in Botswana and re-opened in 2005. Before the closure we sold lion hunts at $25 000-00 , when they reopened the going rate in TZ , MZ etc was approx $45 000-00 , so we went with the fair market value only to find we were by far the lowest with an average for Botswana at $75-$125 000-00.

One person told me not all outfitters are crooks but it seemed all crooks were outfitters , this was part of the problem everybody saw the gap to jump on the $ band wagon and for the last 15 years we have seen outfitters come and go. To such an extent one hunter told me if you dont exhibit at SCI /DSC you must have fallen from grace. I have exhibited at chapter fund raisers where the exhibitor next to me has gaurenteed elephant hunts at 65 pounds and over where as in Botswana we had a national average of 54 pounds - who do think many poor souls booked with - truth or chance.

SCI and DSC with a combined 500-750 donated hunts took this number of hunts off the convention floors - how could a industry sustain itself with these massive number of cheap hunts out there.

Some Hunters showed the world bad behavior and disrespect for animals with photos of them riding dead elephants , baboons with cigars and beer tins in their hands , prolonged wounding videos , macho charging kills , and of course the shooting of research animals and iconic individuals ( imaginary or otherwise ) , and the worst case of caged lions being killed for perceived pleasure of killing not hunting.

Hunting in Africa is at the cliff's edge, it will fall off or take a deep long look at itself and partner with conservationists and other interested and affected parties and make the radical changes needed, irrespective of the will of african politics.

Personally I think we are where we were in the 1960's , only the select few will hunt in africa and wildlife will disappear in wild areas until countries kick start game ranching . ( South Africa being the leading example ) .

Hunters understand the concept of wilderness and wild areas , the average suburban housewife and IT specialist thinks the zoo is wild Africa and a park with grass the great outdoors.
They will vote for people who are anti hunting and anti guns.

Hunters will become fisherman and great story tellers to grandchildren.

28 March 2016, 21:17

jdollar

quote:
when the hunter knows the safari operator he tends to go direct == no need for the broker [seems JDOLLAR may be an exception ]

just for the record,stradling, I have always booked direct with the outfitter and never used a booking agent/broker. And that is for 13 safaris in 7 African countries.

28 March 2016, 21:53

Jan Dumon

quote:
Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Much of what is being said here is true on both sides - hunters and PH's.

In Botswana the Government changed licenses radically in 2003 , Leopard went from $250 to $2500 while we were still selling at SCI , we came back with signed contracts only to find license increases of over 1000%. In many countries the government look at outfitter rates and believe they have the right to the lions share of the rate published without the expenses.

When all the countries were selling big game , competition was fierce and prices were fair . In 2001 Lions were closed in Botswana and re-opened in 2005. Before the closure we sold lion hunts at $25 000-00 , when they reopened the going rate in TZ , MZ etc was approx $45 000-00 , so we went with the fair market value only to find we were by far the lowest with an average for Botswana at $75-$125 000-00.

One person told me not all outfitters are crooks but it seemed all crooks were outfitters , this was part of the problem everybody saw the gap to jump on the $ band wagon and for the last 15 years we have seen outfitters come and go. To such an extent one hunter told me if you dont exhibit at SCI /DSC you must have fallen from grace. I have exhibited at chapter fund raisers where the exhibitor next to me has gaurenteed elephant hunts at 65 pounds and over where as in Botswana we had a national average of 54 pounds - who do think many poor souls booked with - truth or chance.

SCI and DSC with a combined 500-750 donated hunts took this number of hunts off the convention floors - how could a industry sustain itself with these massive number of cheap hunts out there.

Some Hunters showed the world bad behavior and disrespect for animals with photos of them riding dead elephants , baboons with cigars and beer tins in their hands , prolonged wounding videos , macho charging kills , and of course the shooting of research animals and iconic individuals ( imaginary or otherwise ) , and the worst case of caged lions being killed for perceived pleasure of killing not hunting.

Hunting in Africa is at the cliff's edge, it will fall off or take a deep long look at itself and partner with conservationists and other interested and affected parties and make the radical changes needed, irrespective of the will of african politics.

Personally I think we are where we were in the 1960's , only the select few will hunt in africa and wildlife will disappear in wild areas until countries kick start game ranching . ( South Africa being the leading example ) .

Hunters understand the concept of wilderness and wild areas , the average suburban housewife and IT specialist thinks the zoo is wild Africa and a park with grass the great outdoors.
They will vote for people who are anti hunting and anti guns.

Hunters will become fisherman and great story tellers to grandchildren.

Lots of food for thought there.

28 March 2016, 21:55

Gerhard.Delport

quote:
Originally posted by Jan Dumon:
quote:
Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Much of what is being said here is true on both sides - hunters and PH's.

In Botswana the Government changed licenses radically in 2003 , Leopard went from $250 to $2500 while we were still selling at SCI , we came back with signed contracts only to find license increases of over 1000%. In many countries the government look at outfitter rates and believe they have the right to the lions share of the rate published without the expenses.

When all the countries were selling big game , competition was fierce and prices were fair . In 2001 Lions were closed in Botswana and re-opened in 2005. Before the closure we sold lion hunts at $25 000-00 , when they reopened the going rate in TZ , MZ etc was approx $45 000-00 , so we went with the fair market value only to find we were by far the lowest with an average for Botswana at $75-$125 000-00.

One person told me not all outfitters are crooks but it seemed all crooks were outfitters , this was part of the problem everybody saw the gap to jump on the $ band wagon and for the last 15 years we have seen outfitters come and go. To such an extent one hunter told me if you dont exhibit at SCI /DSC you must have fallen from grace. I have exhibited at chapter fund raisers where the exhibitor next to me has gaurenteed elephant hunts at 65 pounds and over where as in Botswana we had a national average of 54 pounds - who do think many poor souls booked with - truth or chance.

SCI and DSC with a combined 500-750 donated hunts took this number of hunts off the convention floors - how could a industry sustain itself with these massive number of cheap hunts out there.

Some Hunters showed the world bad behavior and disrespect for animals with photos of them riding dead elephants , baboons with cigars and beer tins in their hands , prolonged wounding videos , macho charging kills , and of course the shooting of research animals and iconic individuals ( imaginary or otherwise ) , and the worst case of caged lions being killed for perceived pleasure of killing not hunting.

Hunting in Africa is at the cliff's edge, it will fall off or take a deep long look at itself and partner with conservationists and other interested and affected parties and make the radical changes needed, irrespective of the will of african politics.

Personally I think we are where we were in the 1960's , only the select few will hunt in africa and wildlife will disappear in wild areas until countries kick start game ranching . ( South Africa being the leading example ) .

Hunters understand the concept of wilderness and wild areas , the average suburban housewife and IT specialist thinks the zoo is wild Africa and a park with grass the great outdoors.
They will vote for people who are anti hunting and anti guns.

Hunters will become fisherman and great story tellers to grandchildren.

Lots of food for thought there.

28 March 2016, 22:20

stradling

that youtube video was filmed by a guy that was instrumental in starting the save valley

it was part of an effort by one of the main safari companies that would have taken up the best concession

filmed in 2010

if it is the one i think it is-- did not know it was released on to the net

there were other challenges as well

land mines for one

there will always be game to hunt whisky to drink and fuel to burn at some price pre world war 2 africa is all gone

28 March 2016, 23:19

larryshores

There certainly has been a lot of doom and gloom here related to the willingness of clients to spend money. My wife just tried to book our rooms for DSC. The Omni was sold out in 70 minutes or less.

29 March 2016, 03:10

boarkiller

quote:
they

Global warming / Ice age is coming Larry, so everyone is heading south

29 March 2016, 03:54

Frostbit

quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
The Omni was sold out in 70 minutes or less.

Not sure what that represents Larry. Perhaps more attendees than room space. If so, if DSC wants to grow their annual show they had better consider this issue in their future choice of venue location.

29 March 2016, 04:39

larryshores

You could be right Jim.

29 March 2016, 05:28

Hutty

One of the best threads in a while on AR and some great insight from pro's and novices. The thread reads like a focus group for a company that is wondering why they are losing market share. When you have people that have done 10,15,20, 25+ hunts in Africa saying no more things are not trending well.

I have been fortunate to hunt Africa 5 times (3 in SA and 2 in Zim for DG). I love hunting in Africa. The people, sights, sounds, and diversity of game is like nothing else. My last trip over was in 2011 for tuskless and it was incredible. I love showing off my trophies when people come over, wearing my boots made from my elephant, and giving friends gifts from items I had made from my ele.

With that said, the current price structure has driven me out currently. I would love to try for a leopard before they are no longer allowed and just to try for the challenge.

Unfortunately at the end of the day I have bills to pay and being definitely middle of the pack income wise I just can't justify it to myself or my family. So in the meantime I have adjusted accordingly.

Case in point myself and 5 buddies are leasing 18,000 acres in wyoming for mule deer, antelope, trout fishing, predators, and turkeys. 8 days of hunting and fishing all in for probably less than $3000. That is roughly 1/3 the day fees for a 14 day leopard hunt.

I will return to Africa, hopefully before my 50th.

29 March 2016, 07:21

Texas Blue Devil

quote:
Originally posted by larryshores:
There certainly has been a lot of doom and gloom here related to the willingness of clients to spend money. My wife just tried to book our rooms for DSC. The Omni was sold out in 70 minutes or less.

There are plenty of rooms the other near by hotels.

29 March 2016, 10:36

tendrams

There are many moving parts to this issue. I think some species (elephant and lion for example) will see prices continue to fall to the point where many areas just stop protecting the species in the next 10 years (assuming the import bans and restrictions continue to hold). This will mean that they will increase their reliance upon buffalo and plains game. This is fine except that safari companies are being hit by the big time drop in oil prices. I know one outfitter who told me that 70% of his clients were from the US and half of those were from Texas. Don't imagine many of those guys are hunting when oil is below $50. Not many businesses can survive a 35% reduction in demand. Given that, prices will have to respond but most outfitters (as noted above) are going to run up against the government fees which are obviously going to be slow in decreasing (if they do so at all). I suspect the next decade is going to see a weeding out of many outfitters in Southern Africa which is, of course, unfortunate for all of us and the game.

29 March 2016, 10:55

Buzz Charlton

Interesting post indeed. It does amaze me that people think that as operators we have the ability to sway government decisions! Third world countries and in particular Zim is polls apart from the first world and short of living in these countries one will never get a grasp on how things work!

29 March 2016, 11:05

Buzz Charlton

quote:
Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
doubleboy,

That is ridiculous. No safari operator should be telling you how much to give the game scout or anyone else for that matter unless you solicit his council on tipping. If the scout did a good job and was an asset to the hunt I would definitely give him a tip but not $800. on a 10 day buff I wouldn't give the whole crew minus the PH much more than that. Nothing like that has happened to me or any of my clients that I know of. This not common at all anywhere and you got hosed. Sorry!

Mark

Are you serious or what? I use the same game scouts,outfitters,services etc... as everyone uses.If I was told to pay the fellow 800 you can be sure it was not an isolated incident.

George- Sorry I have to call you up on this simply because we are the operator- we NEVER tell anyone how much to tip- we do advise if clients ask but always point out that if you decide to leave nothing that is quite fine as a tip is a tip and must be performance based. I can assure you no one has ever paid a game scout $800. I have confirmed with Rich your PH, Blake who was your appy, as well as Ray who was your camerman and no such thing happened.

I have also confirmed with Rich your Ph about his comments on ele bulls in the East and not having seen any tracks etc etc not surprisingly he says nothing was said. The same year you failed, not for lack of trying, we shot several good bulls. Sorry George one must simply stick to the truth.

29 March 2016, 12:18

Beretta682E

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Interesting post indeed. It does amaze me that people think that as operators we have the ability to sway government decisions! Third world countries and in particular Zim is polls apart from the first world and short of living in these countries one will never get a grasp on how things work!

Given Uncle Bob and his cronies thought legally fixing retail prices and massively increasing money supply was a sustainable and stable long term policy. I truly expected Zimbabwe to offset elephant and lion revenue loss with increase fees on buffalo, leopard and plains game

Mike

29 March 2016, 14:08

Zimbabwe Wildlife Conservation

quote:
Originally posted by Beretta682E:
quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Interesting post indeed. It does amaze me that people think that as operators we have the ability to sway government decisions! Third world countries and in particular Zim is polls apart from the first world and short of living in these countries one will never get a grasp on how things work!

Given Uncle Bob and his cronies thought legally fixing retail prices and massively increasing money supply was a sustainable and stable long term policy. I truly expected Zimbabwe to offset elephant and lion revenue loss with increase fees on buffalo, leopard and plains game

Mike

Lets not forget as leases come up for renewal / expiry you hv concession hungry p/h's and operators offering councils "better prices" and "extra fees",and bidding higher on government concessions just to secure the concession rights... So in a way operators have some hand directly /indirectly in these fee increases..the costs are inevitably passed onto the client..

29 March 2016, 14:52

ozhunter

quote:
Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:

Personally I think we are where we were in the 1960's , only the select few will hunt in africa and wildlife will disappear in wild areas until countries kick start game ranching . ( South Africa being the leading example ) .

Hunters understand the concept of wilderness and wild areas , the average suburban housewife and IT specialist thinks the zoo is wild Africa and a park with grass the great outdoors.
They will vote for people who are anti hunting and anti guns.

Hunters will become fisherman and great story tellers to grandchildren.

Certainly looks that way

29 March 2016, 15:43

larryshores

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
quote:
Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
doubleboy,

That is ridiculous. No safari operator should be telling you how much to give the game scout or anyone else for that matter unless you solicit his council on tipping. If the scout did a good job and was an asset to the hunt I would definitely give him a tip but not $800. on a 10 day buff I wouldn't give the whole crew minus the PH much more than that. Nothing like that has happened to me or any of my clients that I know of. This not common at all anywhere and you got hosed. Sorry!

Mark

Are you serious or what? I use the same game scouts,outfitters,services etc... as everyone uses.If I was told to pay the fellow 800 you can be sure it was not an isolated incident.

George- Sorry I have to call you up on this simply because we are the operator- we NEVER tell anyone how much to tip- we do advise if clients ask but always point out that if you decide to leave nothing that is quite fine as a tip is a tip and must be performance based. I can assure you no one has ever paid a game scout $800. I have confirmed with Rich your PH, Blake who was your appy, as well as Ray who was your camerman and no such thing happened.

I have also confirmed with Rich your Ph about his comments on ele bulls in the East and not having seen any tracks etc etc not surprisingly he says nothing was said. The same year you failed, not for lack of trying, we shot several good bulls. Sorry George one must simply stick to the truth.

I have hunted twice with CMS. We had a game scout both times. Actually two. I was never told to give them a tip much less $800. I was not there with George. I can only say my experience was different than described.

I completely understand George's frustration of not getting an elephant. I have been there done that before except it was lions with me. Hunting has no guarantees. I have been twice with CMS with a good friend. In 2013, he was hammering things left and right and I was getting tired and sweaty. Ultimately, I got all my critters. In 2015, it was just the opposite. I was hammering stuff left and right while he struggled. It is sad and frustrating but it happens.

29 March 2016, 17:27

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
quote:
Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
doubleboy,

That is ridiculous. No safari operator should be telling you how much to give the game scout or anyone else for that matter unless you solicit his council on tipping. If the scout did a good job and was an asset to the hunt I would definitely give him a tip but not $800. on a 10 day buff I wouldn't give the whole crew minus the PH much more than that. Nothing like that has happened to me or any of my clients that I know of. This not common at all anywhere and you got hosed. Sorry!

Mark

Are you serious or what? I use the same game scouts,outfitters,services etc... as everyone uses.If I was told to pay the fellow 800 you can be sure it was not an isolated incident.

George- Sorry I have to call you up on this simply because we are the operator- we NEVER tell anyone how much to tip- we do advise if clients ask but always point out that if you decide to leave nothing that is quite fine as a tip is a tip and must be performance based. I can assure you no one has ever paid a game scout $800. I have confirmed with Rich your PH, Blake who was your appy, as well as Ray who was your camerman and no such thing happened.

I have also confirmed with Rich your Ph about his comments on ele bulls in the East and not having seen any tracks etc etc not surprisingly he says nothing was said. The same year you failed, not for lack of trying, we shot several good bulls. Sorry George one must simply stick to the truth.

It never really bothered me at that time to give the fellow the money because I had a great hunt and a very good year in business.I did not ask any questions either because it was only my second safari and I was not familiar with the process.It bothered me more on my following hunt when I was advised by Blake to tip Ray 500 dollars for filming my leopard hunt-which I did- not take any chance of not receiving the video or part of the video which happened on my first hunt in Chirisa.

29 March 2016, 17:56

jdollar

Do I believe Buzz or George?? Tough choice- NOT!!!!

29 March 2016, 18:11

Charlie64

.

Interesting thread.

Clearly DG hunting / safaris in Africa is a high USD pursuit and I do think that DG hunt prices have outstripped inflation etc by a long way.

Equally when I see a buff hunt priced some USD 5.000 more than a leopard hunt here on AR then it does make me wonder a bit !?

A few things I do know however

A/ you cannot take it with you
B/ DG hunting will become harder to do in the years ahead
C/ there are usually some great end of quota deals to be had for those that can wait and are flexible on dates
D/ most good things in life don't / won't get cheaper
E/ I tipped my game scout USD 150,- on last years 10 day buff hunt and he worked hard for his USD 15,- a day and Buzz was standing next to me as I handed it to the scout

When we cannot hunt lion, leopard nor ele anymore due to Govts pissing on the parade and bending over for the anti vote, a USD 20.000,- buff may look like a steal !

Food for thought ?

.

29 March 2016, 18:36

stradling

the most scarce resource may be the habitat and then the wildlife in it

or is it the buyer the first time buyer served in such a way as he is striped of his choice and therefore must come back

would or could it be the prosperity of the nations that the hunting public stems from and its economic trend

must we consider the peoples that live in and use the lands and in some cases own the lands that hold the habitat

or the global conservation movement chasing every emotion [ think fashion ] that will fuel each one's-- give me some money programs

don't get me wrong here the ngo's from time to time do a little bit of good work [i am not all that much of a cynical type ]

what about the governmental and the scientific communities some good some bad in both camps

all good questions WHO IS REALLY IN CONTROL HERE

pretty sure it's not

the safari operator that treats a client with respect provides a good experience at a level of cost that creates value and the perception of value in the buyer pool

[something that is absolutely out the window just now read the opinions of these hunters over the last 5 pages ]

a PH that protects, teach's and delivers a hunt to a broad range of clientele.

clients with a wide range of buying capacity expectation ability and dream's.

It has been said of the corner grocer it only takes one box of bad potatoes to lose your best friends housewife.

TO MY WAY OF THINKING WE OUGHT A BLAME THE BASTARDS ANY WAY !!

then step back and let the god almighty us dollar sort it out

whats sad about it -- this -- with a room full of; politicians --- administrators --- regulators, with a few failed but I still wanna be one--- scientist--- mixed in -- the market is working--- ON ---organizations with the collective IQ of an amoeba

my good god does it ever take them a long time to ooze the short way out of the shadow of '''by jolly we will teach the crooks a lesson''' out into the light of economic reality

It might have been Adam Smith that said A COUNTRY [ECONOMY] CAN ENDURE A LOT OF KILLIN AND STILL CARRY FORTH

29 March 2016, 18:42

Todd Williams

George, once again, you are full of SHIT! I've hunted with CMS 4 times. Twice with Rich as PH and Blake as Appy, and twice with Blake as PH. Also twice with Ray as camera man.

I always asked for a suggestion on tips. I was NEVER TOLD what to tip anyone, by Rich, Blake, or anyone else. And I guarantee no one at CMS ever suggested $800 for the game scout. IIRC, from my last hunt with them in late 2013 for elephant bull, the game scout tip suggestion was $10 per day for a 14 day hunt ($140), and that because he worked his ass off helping the team. Again, it was a suggestion which I asked for, not a directive.

And to infer that Ray would hold back your video footage if you didn't tip him $500 really pisses me off. Ray is a professional and he deserves more respect than for you to suggest this.

You've slandered these good guys so many times now that I'm honestly surprised they continue to take you hunting.

29 March 2016, 18:54

Todd Williams

I'm not so sure prices are falling fast enough, at least in some areas. Right now, over on the Hunts Offered page, there is an outfitter advertising an end of season, discounted buffalo hunt, Namibia, 7 days, ONE buffalo bull, at $21,000. Discounted from a normal rate of $24,000.

Yawza!!!

29 March 2016, 19:10

stradling

todd

once we teach george to think every thing will turn out ok

quit beating on him for a little fibben here and there

my goodness what are you trying to accomplish

quit or you will supress his imagination

now we can not have that can we

29 March 2016, 19:16

MikeBurke

quote:
My questions is ' how low can prices go' !

I have asked myself that many times in the oilfield business. Working in the fabrication side I survived the 80s, the downturn in the late 90s, 2009, etc. Each time I was amazed at how much people were willing to drop pricing in order to try to stay afloat.

How low? I have witnessed people take work for a 20-30% loss just to try to stay in business, if that makes any sense at all. That being said those that put money in their businesses, paid debt, kept cash on hand can certainly "ride it out" while taking a loss for a year or two.

While price is important, it is not the determining factor on where I will hunt. Unfortunately I still have a romantic idea of Africa and have been very fortunate to have hunted places that that indulge that notion. Without hesitation I will pay more to hunt an area if I feel the operator is putting money back in anti-poaching and good game management. That is very important to me.

What bothers me? I think trophy fees are too high in general. I have no problem with $1000 per day rate on a dangerous game hunt but struggle with the $5000 plus trophy fee on buffalo. All of the added cost are becoming ridiculous. There have been pages of threads about tipping and I have always felt we should tip responsibly. But now if you follow recommendations posted on some websites you are looking at nearly $4500 of tips on a 15 day hunt. That is stretching the limits even for me. Pack and Dip is ridiculous. Taxes, transportation, charters, conservation fees, etc., etc. are starting to frustrate even me.

29 March 2016, 19:30

Lhook7

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Williams:
George, once again, you are full of SHIT! I've hunted with CMS 4 times. Twice with Rich as PH and Blake as Appy, and twice with Blake as PH. Also twice with Ray as camera man.

I always asked for a suggestion on tips. I was NEVER TOLD what to tip anyone, by Rich, Blake, or anyone else. And I guarantee no one at CMS ever suggested $800 for the game scout. IIRC, from my last hunt with them in late 2013 for elephant bull, the game scout tip suggestion was $10 per day for a 14 day hunt ($140), and that because he worked his ass off helping the team. Again, it was a suggestion which I asked for, not a directive.

And to infer that Ray would hold back your video footage if you didn't tip him $500 really pisses me off. Ray is a professional and he deserves more respect than for you to suggest this.

You've slandered these good guys so many times now that I'm honestly surprised they continue to take you hunting.

29 March 2016, 19:45

MJines

. . . only scenario that I could envision that a game scout would be paid more than ~$100-150 would be if there was a "boo boo" that the game scout was being asked to overlook . . . and I am not defending the propriety of doing that even if it was the case nor am I suggesting that anyone at CMS would ever be privy to something like that. But an $800 tip for a game scout, in the abstract, is so absurd to be nonsensical.

29 March 2016, 19:49

Charlie64

.

Todd, That was the buff I was referencing ! Usd 21k for a buff hunt.

.

29 March 2016, 19:51

stradling

george that was stupid of me and i apologize

what i do is try hard [best as i can] to sort the reality and the fantasy of what's possible in africa keeping the romantic aspect absolutly

then swallow the i am not the big shot on the forum i usta think i was

another way to say that is i do not have enough money to buy africa ---but i may have enough to rent some ---for a few days

I remember some 8 years back when my son in law and i put in a bid--- to buy savuile --- in the save conservancy

-=thank and re thank the ever loving god we were handed our hat =-

it was one of those time of which wise people speak -- this is the place that 2 fools met

next pick a place that you can love wild fast dangerous-- kinda but not to much

most important pick a personality that meets your expectation, for service, company in camp // hunting partner, and condition of hunt [fits your ability - skill set]

take enough gun and more important take enough money

do not bring back any of the bullets --- bring back absolutly none of the money

go with the flow --- let the quarterback call the plays

if you happen to get tackled or take a hit, in money, ego, bad shot, or run out of whisky--- get up and carry on [ well maybe eee not the whisky let's not get mushy here]

easy to think through hard to carry forward

what will you do when your ph harvest a trophy for you=== you did not deserve === - this will happen to you - happens to all of- us not just once

this guy that is gifting you --- this grand adventure --- is a bit thin in the 401 k department --- you are rich--- very rich

could cut him a little slack -- if you planned the best you could ---and it on balance did not work out ---just don't go back

rinse and rewash --at some point you will get the spots off the pajamas

don't know if that will work for you--- but it has at times--- worked for me

the thicker your skin the better the chance here

29 March 2016, 20:04

Carl Frederik Nagell

My guess here is that George asked how much to tip the scout and the pH has answered what the tip could be for the whole team. That would also explain why the scout did not understad why he got that much.

Everybody having any knowledge of CMS would know that they never ask a client to tip 800 US to anybody.

Its a simple but costly (for George) misunderstanding.

Good Huntig

Carl Frederik

29 March 2016, 20:07

shootaway

On that Makuti hunt another odd thing that happened was that every time I was handed the Ruger from in back of the truck the rear sight leaf was down.That was a rented rifle that was sighted in or would only shoot bullseye with the 100yd leaf up.It was not easy to put the leaf down and no recoil would put it down.I thought someone was screwing with me in the back truck so that every day,2 or 3 times a day the rifle was handed to me with the leaf down even though I would make sure to put and leave it up.At the same time Ray was pissed that his camera was not working and he too believed someone had screwed with it.

29 March 2016, 20:14

shootaway

quote:
Originally posted by Carl Frederik Nagell:
My guess here is that George asked how much to tip the scout and the pH has answered what the tip could be for the whole team. That would also explain why the scout did not understad why he got that much.

Everybody having any knowledge of CMS would know that they never ask a client to tip 800 US to anybody.

Its a simple but costly (for George) misunderstanding.

Good Huntig

Carl Frederik

No Carl,I had to pay him first on the afternoon before my last day.The list for tips as to who should get what was handed to me the day after he got his money.I usually tip the game scout along with all the others and for about 100 dollars.This was something special and there was no mistaking the amount.