quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Still there is no substitute for wild Africa and if it becomes a privilege for a few then so be it.

fairgame,

As a U.S. middle class laborer with dirt under my nails and band aids on my fingers I do not share your feelings towards the privilege part of this statement.

Same here...pretty insulting as well.

quote:

Still there is no substitute for wild Africa and if it becomes a privilege for a few then so be it.

A PH we had in TZ stated that if the middle class were not able to go on hunts, it would be the death of the industry. Well, it seems he was correct. As with any other industry that has major changes in conditions, to survive the industry must adapt to present and future conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by Black Lechwe:

If it becomes a privilege for the few then hunting on the whole will probably fall away . . .

I think the future of hunting lies in robust 'middle-class' participation . . .

I think that is particularly true in this day and age when hunting generally, especially so-called trophy hunting, is already under significant attack. One reason lion and elephant hunts are so easy for anti-hunting groups to target is because not only are those animals animals around which there is considerable favorable public sentiment but banning those hunts impacts such a small number of hunters. The smaller the universe of hunters the easier it will be for trophy hunting generally to be successfully attacked by legislators, regulators and other officials.

THORN

a program that prices you out of africa is

weak

short sighted

and destine for failure

the physics of this thing are with you

most of all understand

your help is needed to push this wagon out of the mud and move it ahead

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Still there is no substitute for wild Africa and if it becomes a privilege for a few then so be it.

fairgame,

As a U.S. middle class laborer with dirt under my nails and band aids on my fingers I do not share your feelings towards the privilege part of this statement.

I hear you and I was simply looking at the worst case scenario.

My first client this year is a diesel mechanic from Aus who could not afford my prices. He told me what he could afford and offered to work over my cars for a few extra days in the bush. That sir will be my privilege.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Black Lechwe:

If it becomes a privilege for the few then hunting on the whole will probably fall away . . .

I think the future of hunting lies in robust 'middle-class' participation . . .

I think that is particularly true in this day and age when hunting generally, especially so-called trophy hunting, is already under significant attack. One reason lion and elephant hunts are so easy for anti-hunting groups to target is because not only are those animals animals around which there is considerable favorable public sentiment but banning those hunts impacts such a small number of hunters. The smaller the universe of hunters the easier it will be for trophy hunting generally to be successfully attacked by legislators, regulators and other officials.

That has already happened and will happen with leopards next. Buffalo will be allowed as numbers are plentiful and they look like cattle to the public.

No one real will go to fight for $100k-$200k hunts done by less than 500 hunters a year.

If the attitude is it is a privilege for the rich private jet crowd only and the little guy needs to realize that - why should we expect the duck hunter or the plains game hunter to stay up at night worrying about it. United we stand sounds nice till the high end guys says this is for the privilege class only.

The us middle class guy who spends 10-15k on a hunt few times in his life is the core of the African hunting industry - they fill the conventions. Buff has gone out of this groups budget or choice set.

Trying to down sell a lion and elephant guy to hunt buff at stupid prices is also a losing proposition.

Mike

The industry is dead without the middle class.

If they (anti’s) get the full win and get a total ban on the export/import and even hunting for fees (trophy hunting) the only result will be what has been and will be proven again and again, i.e. locals will simply kill/poach to protect life, livelihood, livestock, crops and for bush meat with no other economic nor intrinsic value to protect the game or land.

This is proven over the past 35+ years by what has happened to the “game” populations in Kenya wherein the only “game” exists exclusively in the National Parks. Sadly, where it is still poached.

Other examples of this are where predatory species (lions, leopards and cheetah) are killed (shot or poisoned) to protect livestock/livelihood. I am willing to bet there are as many or more “cats” killed for this reason than are hunted for the evil trophy fees. I am basing this “guess” solely on the number of published news stories of lions being poisoned and anecdotal conversations. Cheetahs for example in Namibia, are legally shot on sight by landowners to protect sheep/goats etc.

Another example is the number of elephants poached vs legally sport/trophy hunted. Only something like 500 permits per year each in Zim and RSA with fewer actually issued, while there are reportedly (National Geographic 2014) over 100,000 per year poached continent wide. Same can be said for black rhino. Five permits per year in Namibia and RSA and (National Geo Jan 2016) over 1,175 poached in 2015 in RSA and 80 in Namibia. Yet the anti’s continue to blame trophy hunting taking 10 or less per year that put $3.5-$4.5 million in the permit fees alone back into rhino conservation/protection.

Bottom line is the old saying, “if it pays it stays”. The animals, all animals WILL die, either from natural causes or for a reason. The reasons can either be for food/economic benefit or as I said earlier, to protect life, livelihood, property, livestock or crops. Pure logic has to dictate that a balance of well regulated sport/trophy hunting is the only way to balance all these issues.

To tie all this back into the OP’s original post. Keeping this all “in balance” by finding price points that encourage maximum “willing participation” and “willing expenditure of funds” with making a reasonable profit and “putting back” into conserving/protecting the land and wildlife is the key. Personally, I don’t begrudge anyone from making a profit, but then too, I don’t like being taken advantage of either.

Yup. Spot on.

yes yes and almost yes

willing and able buyer

i am willing to buy and hunt black rhino

not even close to able

the price point needs to optimise revenue potential

not maximum unit price the market will bare

this is econ 100 and where nature will take the price over time

except; for a few most fortunate wild africa hunters so be it god

one other point of observation

when a cottage industry pricing mentality tries to upcharge and or re-price the premium end of the customer pool, the cream of your client base as well as lots of the repeat buyers will throw it all in hook line and sinker. just go fishing on you, ie read the previous 5 pages.

adding insult to injury they will say nasty things about you, your industry,or both to other like minded folks, never good for growing demand and therefor business revenue

I would agree with you except for the VERY small number of permits.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
So based upon your original post, it cost $5,000 to get these things home. Probably more if you use a service to clear them.

I am sorry but that is just f'ing ridiculous. If i read this right, that is effectively $1,000 per animal.

Absolute insanity.

For all our animals (10 animals total) from Moz - 2 Leopards, 6 Impala, 1 Waterbuck, 1 Hartebeest It will be just shy of $5,000 to the US.

That is more animals but still a hell of of money regardless.

and i agree w you larry

black rhino at 1/4 million usd

is exactly the wrong choice to make my point

could have said a 40 lb elephant or a 12k sable

that would be more relevant to my point

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

You have done the best of Africa my friend and I hope one day to see you back in these lands.

Now what to do with that fine double of yours?

Cheers

We may return to Africa someday but likely will not hunt. That said, there are many other places we would like to explore as well.

The double may some day be sold but for now I enjoy fondling that thing of beauty.

Cheers
Jim

I think a sub 7k 470 NE double rifle sitting unsold in the classifieds for almost a month speaks volumes about the upcoming DG season.

I can't imagine that happening here a few years ago.

For me I guess wild Africa is worth it. I may not be able to go as often as I'd like but there is for me still no other experience that matches it. I recently went on what I considered a great PG safari in some beautiful big country with nothing but cattle fences. Was it fun? You bet it was but it did not have that feel of adventure that you get in the real "Bush". Just being where there are good populations of the Big 5 adds a whole new dimension to the safari. I'll have to wait a couple of seasons to return as these hunts are getting more expensive for me too but I'm certainly not writing off wild Africa and replacing it with anything else.

Here's another thing that comes to mind. Folks are bitching about the rising costs and I completely understand that. Comments are something to the fact that eventually only the rich will be able to hunt. Of course I've hear that the whole 14 years I've been on this site. Consider this though. We are the rich guys compared to everyone else that cannot afford a safari of any type. I'm not talking about the working poor but folks that make a descent living but have multiple kids in school and any real extra money they have is going into a meager retirement. Those folks think we all are rich or crazy. So I guess rich is relative.

I wish more people could enjoy Africa but it has always been expensive and every middle class person could never afford to go nor were they or are they now all willing to make a plan that will allow them to go. Heck I always thought I'd like to own just once a Mercedes but there has never been a time when I could do that. I'm not pissed at Mercedes. Safari is much the same. Some folks can afford it and some folks can't.

Finally I do think as my Gokwe ad reflects that prices will have to come down. These prices came from the local council listening to the safari operator. Let's hope that more of this sensibility rubs off on the governments before there is a catastrophic failure of the industry.

Just my 2 cents

Mark

QUOTE; We may return to Africa someday but likely will not hunt. That said, there are many other places we would like to explore as well.

The double may some day be sold but for now I enjoy fondling that thing of beauty.
End Quote

Hi Jim,

Reading your words saddens my heart. We enjoyed talking to you and Joyce about African hunting. Hopefully, things can change in the future, and you'll need that double rifle and bolt 375 once again.

Here's to you and Joyce!

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
QUOTE; We may return to Africa someday but likely will not hunt. That said, there are many other places we would like to explore as well.

The double may some day be sold but for now I enjoy fondling that thing of beauty.
End Quote

Hi Jim,

Reading your words saddens my heart. We enjoyed talking to you and Joyce about African hunting. Hopefully, things can change in the future, and you'll need that double rifle and bolt 375 once again.

Here's to you and Joyce!

Tell the furry boys we said hi.

I get your point mark

but you must realize that you are selling hunts

and mostly going for free

not at all the same as the guys here doing the heavy lifting

not that your perspective is irelevent

it is just not in the same pool

I was fortunate to be able to go on my dangerous game hunts long ago when I was young (27) and still single. I had just started making really good money for my age and very little expenses. I remember George Hartley telling me in Zim (91) that I was "an anomaly" in African Hunting. I think I spent $ 5000.00 daily rates for 10 days in Zim with a $ 1000.00 trophy fee on buffalo. Went 3 times in 5 years from 89' thru 94'.

I feel fortunate that circumstances worked out for me to do that. Got married in 96' and took
a 17 year hiatus from Africa. Of course the bug was still there and there were some places and a few PG animals I still wanted to take. Went on a SA PG hunt with my dad in 11' and a PG hunt in Mozambique in 14'.
Now it is more about seeing new places and maybe taking an animal or 2 that I don't already have. Point is I am glad I got my DG hunting done early and I am sure I will venture over across the pond again a time or 2 more to see new areas and maybe pick up a pg animal or 2 at a relatively low cost.

I am not nearly as depressed about the prices as I am about the attitudes of our gov't and frankly, the general public. When was African hunting ever inexpensive (at least for DG)? Money is a speedbump, but govt policies are a roadblock. Frankly, it is easier to make more money than it is to change gov't policy.

I have said this before, but I will say it again. After my first safari I got the itch to hunt DG and eventually lion/ele. I knew that if I continued to work for a big company, I could do a buffalo hunt once in a while (my annual comp was about 150K when I went on my first DG and worked for a big company), but I knew a 21 day in Tanz would be a once in a lifetime experience at best, and certainly nothing that could be repeated. I have also said on this site that going on a hunt once is not my cup of tea.

So I thought about starting my own business. Of course, I could fail and not go on "big" hunts. But if I was successful, then I could. If I did nothing different, I would spend an inordinate amount of my net income on hunting. Since the outcome of failing in business was the same as doing nothing different, I took the plunge. It certainly made more sense for me to do this than "borrow money and hunt now, because you can borrow money but you can't borrow time." That attitude is simply insane to me, as is the attitude "I will spend all my money on hunting while I can and die broke." Getting old is bad, but being affluent certainly makes it easier (as is staying in shape).

A friend of mine from childhood is a truck driver. He recently contacted me about elk hunting advice. I told him he was welcome to hunt on our land in Colorado (in reality, use it as a base since it borders Natl Forest which is landlocked by private land). He asked me about the hunting, and was really stunned when I told him I had never hunted it. When he asked why, I told him that I have more money than time, and it just makes sense for me to hire a guide. My buddy the truck driver has never even dreamed of hunting in Africa, but if he could shoot a big elk he would be on cloud nine. I am sure he more typical of most hunters than those on this forum. That said, one hunt I LIVE for is my annual deer hunting trip to northern MN. I love the terrain, shack life, and most of all, my friends with whom I hunt.

Many of you have mentioned fishing. I love bill fishing as well, and combine it with scuba diving as well. But fishing is fishing, and isn't hunting. I suspect many of you like bill fishing because it is more like African hunting in terms of creature comforts than hunting in Alaska or even elk hunting. I love to elk hunt on horses; sure you don't shoot as much as Africa, but I don't need to shoot animals several times per day to have a good hunt. I am going to Africa in June for leopard (one of those good deals), but not sure when I will return again. I would love to do another 21 day, but the lion issue has me really bummed. I was on the verge of booking a lion hunt with CMS but then the ban came out, so I changed plans. Ironically, I have never been to Zim, always fearing sanctions would be slapped on after I booked a hunt. Never did I think the Obama administration would throw us this curve ball.

Mark Young brings out some good comments. I could buy a Mercedes but I have no desire to do so. I drive a 2013 Corolla and a 1997 Ford F150. But I don't do it to spend more on hunting; I am just totally uninterested in cars. But I did drive an old beat up Bronco for years to save up for my first African hunt.

I love long range shooting, and am getting two more custom rifles built. I have always liked shooting. Given the choice between hunting in Africa every year or shooting at long range several times per week, I would take the latter - heck, it is why I live in AZ. Africa is fun, but I don't live and breath it like some of you. I went to DSC once (but only because I was in Dallas for business) and while it was fun, I was kind of bored after an hour. It wasn't hunting, and it wasn't shooting.

Let me offer a different perspective

Firstly I have never met Andrew. So this is just my view.

I think it is a great privilege to live in New Zealand. I can hunt 365 days a year. No trophy fees. No lodge fees. Often I can get permission to hunt private land. I can hunt Canada geese through out the year. I am privileged. Many who visit agree with me.

Here in NZ I can go to thousands of beaches, camp, relax, fish, take the family out, dive for cray fish, collect oysters & abalone, go on a friends boat & catch a marlin - all for free. I am privileged. Most visitors agree.

Here in NZ I can go to the mountains and ski for very little money, drink some of the best wines and relax with some of the most awesome scenery in the world - at little cost. I am privileged. Most visitors agree.

When I visit India - I can visit some wilderness areas and see wild tigers, leopard, gaur & just soak in the atmosphere of true wilderness. I pay Indian rates & sometimes I get access to areas that are closed to tourists. I am privileged. Most visitors agree.

If you come here on a holiday it will still cost you good money to do all that stuff in 10 to 30 days! You will have to pay for the basic facilities, travel services, costs & profits that I do not pay extra for.

So why is that any different for Andrew in his patch, where he can soak in the sun rise, sun set, birds, smells, wild Africa 300 to 500 miles away from a city and all the wild game like 100 years ago (may be not in the same numbers)???

I do not think Andrew meant to insult anyone or be snobbish and elitist. I have never known him to be rude on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Still there is no substitute for wild Africa and if it becomes a privilege for a few then so be it.

fairgame,

As a U.S. middle class laborer with dirt under my nails and band aids on my fingers I do not share your feelings towards the privilege part of this statement.

Same here...pretty insulting as well.

Stradling,

I have never been on a free hunt and I was hunting Africa for 10 years before I ever was in the business. I do get some consideration but not nearly what folks might think. Safari operators with limited DG quota cannot afford to be giving away lions, elephants etc. Just one of those hunts might make the difference between them making a profit at season's end or not.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Let me offer a different perspective

Firstly I have never met Andrew. So this is just my view.

I think it is a great privilege to live in New Zealand. I can hunt 365 days a year. No trophy fees. No lodge fees. Often I can get permission to hunt private land. I can hunt Canada geese through out the year. I am privileged. Many who visit agree with me.

Here in NZ I can go to thousands of beaches, camp, relax, fish, take the family out, dive for cray fish, collect oysters & abalone, go on a friends boat & catch a marlin - all for free. I am privileged. Most visitors agree.

Here in NZ I can go to the mountains and ski for very little money, drink some of the best wines and relax with some of the most awesome scenery in the world - at little cost. I am privileged. Most visitors agree.

When I visit India - I can visit some wilderness areas and see wild tigers, leopard, gaur & just soak in the atmosphere of true wilderness. I pay Indian rates & sometimes I get access to areas that are closed to tourists. I am privileged. Most visitors agree.

If you come here on a holiday it will still cost you good money to do all that stuff in 10 to 30 days! You will have to pay for the basic facilities, travel services, costs & profits that I do not pay extra for.

So why is that any different for Andrew in his patch, where he can soak in the sun rise, sun set, birds, smells, wild Africa 300 to 500 miles away from a city and all the wild game like 100 years ago (may be not in the same numbers)???

I do not think Andrew meant to insult anyone or be snobbish and elitist. I have never known him to be rude on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Still there is no substitute for wild Africa and if it becomes a privilege for a few then so be it.

fairgame,

As a U.S. middle class laborer with dirt under my nails and band aids on my fingers I do not share your feelings towards the privilege part of this statement.

Same here...pretty insulting as well.

I agree. Flying private instead of commercial is a privilege. How is saying that insulting?

If you want to do something that costs more money, figure out a way to make more money. If I wanted to fly private, I would seek outside investors, leverage up, etc - in order to have a net worth of nine figures. But guess what? I don't want to do that and consequently I fly commericial.

My neighbor is in the skilled trades. He figured out a long time ago that he was better off starting his own business, and today he owns three of them. He never went to college and never had anything handed to him.

Actually, it will remain a priviledge regardless.

If we have African hunting go the way of hunting and fishing in the US, while the price may well go way down, the number of folks who can participate (read draw tags) will be a minuscule fraction of those who would like to participate...which is hurting hunting over here, at least as I see it. How man have hunted Shiras Moose or bighorn sheep here, as compared to who want to? I have been fortunate to hunt more than most, yet I haven't managed either of those ones. Part of what drove me to Africa was not having to screw around with tags or bidding on an auction.

I suspect what is really middle class has changed as well.

I agree that there has been a lot of increases in costs to hunt Africa just since I started back in '07. I think a lot of them are unsustainable, and the need for the middle class to hunt to maintain markets is real. I don't see the PH's or the camp staff getting the increased costs either. Near as I can figure, their salaries are about as stagnant as mine has been. The operators are stuck with rising costs and more people with their fingers in the pie. I do suspect that part of the increases are operators maintaining profitability levels, but frankly I doubt many are getting rich off of it.

If we want to keep hunting, we need to keep it as a way for the game to pay to stay.

If the operators want to keep their livelihood, they need to keep the add ons down.

Honestly, everything is interrelated, and any one piece of the chain getting broken will cause repercussions on the others, but sometimes folks are too greedy to see it until too late (poaching, fee increases, desire for lowered costs, etc.)

mark I know the outfitter fee commission ''markup'' has thinned down a bit as of late

i know the service rendered is useful, in some cases, i get that as well

i actually did use an outfitter the one time

but with the internet and shows, not so much these days

what was the first thing the call girls gave up when craigs list came out [minor casualty of market efficiency in play]

is your take 10% or 20% on say a [typ] plains game hunt

as a percent commission you have by default a positive position in [ up priced hunting ]

plus the comp hunts, the discount hunts, and so on, so forth--

so the line is blurred more than a bit from where i see you standing in objective pricing

Just the Language you use wild, remote, big bush, big 5 concession [sales jargon] is defining of your standing in this debate

not bad
not good
not better
just a fact

less objective than it otherwise might be

what was the first thing the call girls lost once craigs list came out?

[just a simple real world expression of an efficient market at work]

quote:

what was the first thing the call girls lost once craigs list came out?

Uh... loud mouth know-it-alls who use insulting analogies? I wish we would lose a few on this thread.

Reminds me of llamapacker, also a SLC denizen

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

what was the first thing the call girls lost once craigs list came out?

Uh... loud mouth know-it-alls who use insulting analogies? I wish we would lose a few on this thread.

Hear hear!


I thought it was just me.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanamrm:

quote:

what was the first thing the call girls lost once craigs list came out?

Uh... loud mouth know-it-alls who use insulting analogies? I wish we would lose a few on this thread.

Well this was an interesting thread. I doubt that I can add much.
I have been to Zim once and had a terrible hunt and would not go back if I was paid.
I have been to SA twice and that was fantastic. I can afford to go, it's just that I felt in the case of Zim I was royally screwed and the SA price escalation is really ridiculous. I may go back to SA some day, but as others have done I am branching out to other adventures instead of dealing with ridiculous price increases and "add ons". I and my friend that has been on all my safaris with me are going to the coast of BC salmon and halibut fishing. And we are booked on a brown bear hunt in Alaska.
I hope the safari industry gets its act together. Not all of their problems are self inflicted, but many are.

I just think this whole thread is hysterical. You know who sets the market price...the buyers! And that's true for any business...money has been flowing freely for the past few years and outfitters started to price themselves out the game...now, with oil/stock market in the tank, they wake up to fine themselves with their camps empty.

Ironically...these same outfitters were more than happy to try and sell their hunts 2 months ago at list price in Dallas/Vegas. The price will crash until it meets demand...plain and simple.

I can assure you there's no forum that all the African Ph's are on wondering when drilling will come back to life and the 1000's of people that have been laid off in my industry will get back to work.

Seriously, these are the ups and downs of the economy, if you're in business and you don't plan for these type of events, you're not doing your job. I spoke to many outfitters last year and told them you better get ready...bc the silence is coming, and yet they show up to convention with ridiculous pricing.

Mark, I love you to death, however you posted, "I've never seen prices this low"...well I bet you have, maybe not in this decade, however, the prices used to be considerably less. With flat wage growth in the USA, recovery from 2008, and now this economic recession we're in, prices should slide back 10 years at a minimum.

Like many of the shale oil and gas players, there's going to be a major thinning of the herd...and isn't that what we all really want? The best operators will survive, the clients will vote with their dollars. It might not be all champagne, but there will be beers consumed around campfires.

It's all cyclical, why is everyone in shock? Anyone who reads should have seen this coming miles away.

quote:

posted 28 March 2016 06:55 Hide Post
I just think this whole thread is hysterical. You know who sets the market price...the buyers! And that's true for any business...money has been flowing freely for the past few years and outfitters started to price themselves out the game...now, with oil/stock market in the tank, they wake up to fine themselves with their camps empty.

Ironically...these same outfitters were more than happy to try and sell their hunts 2 months ago at list price in Dallas/Vegas. The price will crash until it meets demand...plain and simple.

I can assure you there's no forum that all the African Ph's are on wondering when drilling will come back to life and the 1000's of people that have been laid off in my industry will get back to work.

Seriously, these are the ups and downs of the economy, if you're in business and you don't plan for these type of events, you're not doing your job. I spoke to many outfitters last year and told them you better get ready...bc the silence is coming, and yet they show up to convention with ridiculous pricing.

Mark, I love you to death, however you posted, "I've never seen prices this low"...well I bet you have, maybe not in this decade, however, the prices used to be considerably less. With flat wage growth in the USA, recovery from 2008, and now this economic recession we're in, prices should slide back 10 years at a minimum.

Like many of the shale oil and gas players, there's going to be a major thinning of the herd...and isn't that what we all really want? The best operators will survive, the clients will vote with their dollars. It might not be all champagne, but there will be beers consumed around campfires.

It's all cyclical, why is everyone in shock? Anyone who reads should have seen this coming miles away.

Well said. I have no doubt that we will have this same discussion again in our lifetimes on exactly the same points.

What may differ, is how much habitat we still have to work with next time around.

Stradling - I have to segregate wild Africa from the rest as it is completely different scenario. For example 90% of Zambia is communal land and we deal directly with these landlords. Many of our areas are remote and there are still vast blocks which are unexplored by us. Many of the rural tribes still eek a subsistence living and not much has changed here.

quote:

It might not be all champagne, but there will be beers consumed around campfires.

That quote pretty much sums up the current state of affairs and we operators simply have to adapt to suit current market trends and the economy.

Larry you are quite right and it it is the middle class that makes up for the bulk of our income and hunting wild places is their privilege and one that is a product of hard work and commitment.

The management of wild Africa comes at a cost and the pressure on these lands increases annually. To be honest if there was no poaching or encroachment we could all slash our prices. Many of us do not rest and our efforts/expenses outside of the hunting has to be reflected in our pricing.

For many the allure of Africa are the wild places which are pristine and unpredictable. The expectancy and sometimes the danger. We seek emotion that is not found in everyday life. It is a privilege and one that is worth protecting.

Ultimately it will be the attached communities who decide the fate of their wild lands and it has been my job to prove the worth of their natural resources. I would say that if communities could profit directly from safari incomes and trophy fees and be granted more responsibilities/incentives by Government in the management of their natural resources then hunting will be both sustainable and affordable.

Today USF&W want proof of our communal relationships and their incomes/incentives from safari hunting species such as Elephant and Lion. We are working diligently with consultants from the USA, Research and the Wildlife authorities so we can justify the worth of hunting in conservation. This is at our cost and we are more than happy to pay.

It is not all doom and gloom and there are some shining lights - The people of Namibia have proudly stood up to defend their rights to manage their natural resources as they see fit. I predict other African countries will follow.

In a nutshell it is not just about us hunters but the preservation of land and it's associated natural resources for the benefit of all. Africa is a cause worth investing in.

I understand a bit of your struggle

as I worked on a job just west of you on the angolan line

and ya that was wild africa to

so wild we planned to fly folks in and abandon them for weeks at a time kinda like alaska -- no roads had to do it


saw much the same initial conditions back in 2010 working on the luiana park plan for a private development group


they were trying to open up a hunt in angola on a 20,ooo km block -- so far we have failed -- so far you have succeeded -- BIG DIFFERENCE


I have always been interested in conservation based rural development schemes

but it was there in 2010 that i first understood the full challenge-- big picture

think of the millions of usd the global donor community plowed in to save conservancy and the ensuing political mess KEEP IN MIND THAT WAS AND IS A PRIVATE UNDERTAKING [god forbid with a fence around it ]


so even when you get it done is it sustainable politically -- what might you do diffrent up you way

still we can -should not - must not quit --but in the end private enterprise will save most of the species under threat - we do have that history


as hard as it is for me to get out of my mouth

the usfws may be in the end a good thing to drive more consumptive tourism funds to local indigenous benefits as they regulate the us market

the private hunting in south africa - Namibia - Botswana is by definition of private ranch competitive supply

national game programs and usfws move slow inefficient and at worst are moved by political bend

the elephant ruling and the lion ruling are not based on hard science, rather emotionally driven politics --not helpful to wildlife or the locals

Fair Game you know that if the local village as a collective group sees no benefit someone will grab a snare and slip out a hunting and eat meat. he might any way if he can keep the neighbors from sniffing him out.

what drives all players forward is information when the camp fire community knows and believes they can capture a 2,ooo,ooo usd revenue stream you have their attention

when the hunter knows the safari operator he tends to go direct == no need for the broker [seems JDOLLAR may be an exception ]

bad actors, government kickback- scalpers marking up the ticket to low information buyers - lack of trust , due to many things including bad history between the safari operator and the tribal community --- Gokwe North comes to mind here --- are the friction or blockage that piss on the campfire

not an easy thing --education, free flow of information, transparency, and upstanding light handed regulation- under the pressure of local tribal governance national governance and global governance --- great idea hard to implement --you have my admiration my respect

god be with you for you are to travel troubled waters my friend

at the end of this journey you need a populous, vibrant, enthusiastic customer base --- or its all for not --- the only advice i can give is please --- price it to the larger market

Stradling,

Your prose is sometimes difficult to read but am I correct in saying that we are on the same page?

So many factors, but the market base ( middle class US hunters ) are bread and butter of majority of hunting industry
So prices will adjust to that no matter who tries to control it

yes

to the extent that the cost base of your programs

will not chase the value based hunting packages over to private hunting programs to the south

the delivery of services and upcharges of ''the grand wild emotional safari experience'' can keep the premium buyers off the fishing boats and in your camp

and the value added people can do their job at a fair price or be excused from the transaction


how low can it go

low


enough to make supply respond to these market forces and others like them

we have no idea who will get that done when where or at what price

will be interesting to see it play out on the grand stage of safari hunting

remember as ugly as it sounds you are not selling conservation first

you are selling positive safari hunting experiences

quote:

remember as ugly as it sounds you are not selling conservation first

I disagree and I am directly partnered with my community in business who own 20% of the development company and the whole project has been about conservation and the successes we have had to date.