quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Jim, I understand your frustration. When I received the pending invoices for the trophies for my last two African hunts, I told them to just keep them....a bunch of money to get the stuff to RSA, a bunch of money there for doc and export prep, air freight charges, customs clearance and other fees here, freight to your taxidermist. I could just go on another hunt.

I feel the same way. We're getting screwed by all the add-ons.

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
I am looking at other cost effective adventures. For instance, my son and a group of his friends just returned from a Guatemala sail fishing trip with Pacific Fins. The tally: 3 boats for 3 days boated 219 sails, good food, good accomodations, lots of fun, tour of town of Antigua, etc. $3,295 per man, 3 to a boat, plus airfare.

With the downturn in the oil industry and the much higher prices in Zim, this will be the first year of the last 8 that I am not going to Africa.

BTW, In 2010 I hunted Deka in Zim for 7 days with Cape Buffalo included for $7,500 all in plus tips.

I hope all my friends in Zim, Zam, Bots, etc survive but there is definitely going to be a "reseting".

Cheers

Butch,

Last week, I was fishing with Pacific Fins in Guatemala. We booked it last minute and only had time to fish for 2 days, but it was awesome.

In 2 days, my son and I landed 88 sailfish and 1 Blue Marlin.

We had a blast.

We will definitely go back.

I too am among those who have switched to big game fishing do to the high costs of a safari. We are now spending our time (and money) in San Carlos, Sonora, Mexico chasing bill fish. We've done well enough that we're headed to Costa Rica next month to fish the invitational Offshore World Championships!

I'd love to go back to Africa, but not at today's prices.

I wonder if Martin regrets starting this thread.

I am going this year and next. I have started to realize that there are some hunts that I might not be able to do much longer given my age. I am starting to focus a bit more on mountain hunts. I am going to do them while I still can. I can do a Dall sheep for less than $20k. That is a hell of a lot less than my safaris. It is big adventure .

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
doubleboy,

That is ridiculous. No safari operator should be telling you how much to give the game scout or anyone else for that matter unless you solicit his council on tipping. If the scout did a good job and was an asset to the hunt I would definitely give him a tip but not $800. on a 10 day buff I wouldn't give the whole crew minus the PH much more than that. Nothing like that has happened to me or any of my clients that I know of. This not common at all anywhere and you got hosed. Sorry!

Mark

Are you serious or what? I use the same game scouts,outfitters,services etc... as everyone uses.If I was told to pay the fellow 800 you can be sure it was not an isolated incident.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
So based upon your original post, it cost $5,000 to get these things home. Probably more if you use a service to clear them.

I am sorry but that is just f'ing ridiculous. If i read this right, that is effectively $1,000 per animal.

Absolute insanity.

You read it right Larry. I paid $2,250.00 to get an Oribi and Reedbuck cape and horns from Mozambique to a US Port of Entry.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
The dip pack and ship is an even bigger wallet gouged

I wouldn't mind seeing it start a downward pricing trend as it is ridiculous

I just wired $4,203.89 to Mozambique for both Joyce and my trophies. We will also have an estimated $760 cost for them to leave RSA after transfer.

The more I think about this, the more annoyed I get. Think about it for a minute. I can fly 2 people to Johannesburg and back for less than this. People require among other things:

Food
Drinks
Flight attendants
Restrooms
And a variety of other things

A box requires none of these things which cost money. Why does it cost so much?

It has nothing to do with airfare. This is one of the two invoices. You can see it's fee after fee and the trophies will be driven from Moz to RSA then the estimate is an additional
$762 to ship to the US.

This is just Joyce's. Mine is almost the same amount.


QTY
DESCRIPTION
UNIT PRICE
TOTAL
Collection charges from Luwire Safaris - Lichinga to Chimoio
$ 202.06

Preparation of the following trophies for Export
1 Licht.Hartebeest skull&horns
$ 50.00

3 Johnston's Impala skull&horns
$ 120.00

1 Leopard skull/fullskin
$ 125.00

1 Application for CITES permit only(Leopard)
$ 330.00

Application for all required Export Docs & Permits
$ 350.00

Wrapping, Packing & Crating Charges
$ 50.00

Mozambique Customs Clearance Charges
$ 225.00

Road Freight Charges to RSA Bonded Warehouse
$ 100.00

Facilitation Charges
$ 150.00

Total excluding insurance
Total US $ 1 702.69

Optional Loss & Damage Protection Charge for trophies received at our facility: Cover from date of receipt of payment until date of delivery thereof to nominated destination

$ 384.99

Total including insurance
Total US $
$ 2 087.05

This is outrageous.

Mike

That is about how much I paid for tusks,3 ele skin panels,ele ear,and warthog.I thought the price was a little expensive but OK-about what I expected.I thought the insurance was expensive but I took it anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I wonder if Martin regrets starting this thread.

The underlying issues have been simmering for a while. I could feel it at DSC in the one day I spent there.

The American hunting consumer who formed the bulk of the African safari client base has reached a inflection point. Prices cannot get jacked up year over year as incomes and financial assets stagnate in the aggregate and are destroyed in the natural resource/energy/commodity space.

I think DSC in 2017 will have a different feel.

If I was an outfitter I would look at what Tim Herald is doing and copy that. Group hunts and focus on minimizing Client expenses on all these tack on services.

African hunting kind of felt like Las Vegas night club scene in 2005-2007 - every real estate broker from California was ordering bottle service.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
So based upon your original post, it cost $5,000 to get these things home. Probably more if you use a service to clear them.

I am sorry but that is just f'ing ridiculous. If i read this right, that is effectively $1,000 per animal.

Absolute insanity.

You read it right Larry. I paid $2,250.00 to get an Oribi and Reedbuck cape and horns from Mozambique to a US Port of Entry.

This is beyond insane.

Shot an Alaskan brown bear a few years ago ... the paper work to get the skin and skull back to Canada was about $2,100 ....I never saw that coming until it was too late...

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
I've had a lot of my clients start fishing due to the high cost of safaris in prime destinations. Alaska, Costa Rica, Argentina, MA (tuna & big stripers) to name a few.

If you are doing group trips I am interested.

Mike

I am confused. Are current prices low? Really.

I have never hunted in Africa. I booked a 7 day buffalo hunt in Zim for 2014 but had to cancel it.

That was $9k hunt including trophy fees. Now I do not seem to find anything below $15k. In those 2 years the Rand to $ exchange rate is up by about R2 per $. I know Zim is not South Africa but the local costs must be affected.

Apart from petrol / diesel, what has gone up so much? Hold on a minute - have oil prices not dropped?

When in South Africa I went to a small game farm for a day. I did not shoot anything as I could not find a Wart hog. But during the visit I suddenly relised the dual pricing. The Game ranch guy was talking in Rands - R7k for a 57 inch kudu bull. But the guide wanted US$1.5k - more than double the going rate!

I suspect that some of the Zim & Tz operators maintain an American lifestyle & charge accordingly!

I like Fairgame's model - transparent and fair with some real old fashioned hunting in old fashioned wild Africa.

All I need now is to strike Lotto!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
doubleboy,

That is ridiculous. No safari operator should be telling you how much to give the game scout or anyone else for that matter unless you solicit his council on tipping. If the scout did a good job and was an asset to the hunt I would definitely give him a tip but not $800. on a 10 day buff I wouldn't give the whole crew minus the PH much more than that. Nothing like that has happened to me or any of my clients that I know of. This not common at all anywhere and you got hosed. Sorry!

Mark

Are you serious or what? I use the same game scouts,outfitters,services etc... as everyone uses.If I was told to pay the fellow 800 you can be sure it was not an isolated incident.

Does anybody else feel it is unethical and possibly illegal to tip a government official like a game scout? I mean I get this is Africa and the guy is probably helping out in many cases, much like the rest of the crew. But at what point does the American love of tipping cross the line of bribery as defined in FCPA or the Bribery Act. I may be a little hard on this, as I have a problem with bribing, especially govt. workers in any country. It is not only illegal, but it also opens up an expectation for future bribes and more victims after me.

Regarding prices, they have gone up tremendously over the last few year. I only started hunting Africa in 2012 and so far only made 4 trips. As Mike has noted, it is a discretionary vacation. Each year I question the want to spend the amount on hunting and also budget for family vacations. I have a total dollar amount in mind including incidentals and try to pick a destination. I will say, every year it has become a tougher choice and lately I do question the want to spend the large amounts in Africa. There is an infinite no. of things that could be done with that discretionary money and I feel we sometimes shortchanged our other vacations or plans due to it.

Mt last four overseas trips I left it all there. Don't miss it a bit and pleased i did not contribute to the African's screw American mentality and business practices.
Cal

Here's the deal for us. (probably more me then Joyce because she just tagged along until killing things on her own)

I remember being 8 years old reading "Outdoor life" and "Field and Stream" under the covers with a flashlight so my parents didn't catch me still up.

The dream of hunting "Black Death" was beyond the financial possibility of anyone I ever knew or grew up around in Pennsylvania.

I never even thought of Africa and those hours under those covers reading magazines until 9 years ago when I switched jobs to join a family practice clinic and a "boss" who had hunted Africa and beyond.

I started to believe I too could do this.

I never felt I had wealth. Don't get me wrong on this Larry Shores, but compared to you I do not have wealth but I saw an opportunity for a hardworking guy and his wife to live an "impossible dream" starting in 2010.

Do I regret all those dollars spent on hunting Africa and then the taxidermy afterward? Not in a heartbeat until I think about what those dollars could provide now in retirement.

That said, I would not trade any of it and I intend to import those Leopards and have Jerry Huffaker mount them.

Stupid money!! You bet!!

But I have always finished what I have started and that 8 year old "under the covers" will see this through.

That said, the hunting has brought many other experiences and friendships along the way.

Steve has written his "the client" article about how many of us have been "fooled" by PH's into thinking we are more than a client.

I suspect I have had some of those but I have also had the experience of sending money across the pond to a man named Andrew Baldry before a camp was even built and ended up with a Safari and a bag of game many would envy.

The 8 year old is satisfied and he will pay for that last piece of shipping and taxidermy but he is done with Africa as a hunting destination.

He has learned!!

Cheers
Jim

I'm in nwt, Canada. Planning on taking my hide from the white bear to Edmonton, export permit was fixed within 5 minutes, will take it as extra luggage around 300cad, was told around 700 to get it to Sweden within 1 month, don't know if it will be the exact amount but it's sounds very reasonable comparing to Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Here's the deal for us. (probably more me then Joyce because she just tagged along until killing things on her own)

I remember being 8 years old reading "Outdoor life" and "Field and Stream" under the covers with a flashlight so my parents didn't catch me still up.

The dream of hunting "Black Death" was beyond the financial possibility of anyone I ever knew or grew up around in Pennsylvania.

I never even thought of Africa and those hours under those covers reading magazines until 9 years ago when I switched jobs to join a family practice clinic and a "boss" who had hunted Africa and beyond.

I started to believe I too could do this.

I never felt I had wealth. Don't get me wrong on this Larry Shores, but compared to you I do not have wealth but I saw an opportunity for a hardworking guy and his wife to live an "impossible dream" starting in 2010.

Do I regret all those dollars spent on hunting Africa and then the taxidermy afterward? Not in a heartbeat until I think about what those dollars could provide now in retirement.

That said, I would not trade any of it and I intend to import those Leopards and have Jerry Huffaker mount them.

Stupid money!! You bet!!

But I have always finished what I have started and that 8 year old "under the covers" will see this through.

That said, the hunting has brought many other experiences and friendships along the way.

Steve has written his "the client" article about how many of us have been "fooled" by PH's into thinking we are more than a client.

I suspect I have had some of those but I have also had the experience of sending money across the pond to a man named Andrew Baldry before a camp was even built and ended up with a Safari and a bag of game many would envy.

The 8 year old is satisfied and he will pay for that last piece of shipping and taxidermy but he is done with Africa as a hunting destination.

He has learned!!

Cheers
Jim

+1

Everybody has a unique different reason to go to Africa.

I read about Africa and India as a kid. Hunted (more correctly poached - everybody after 1970 is poacher in india) a little in India. Did not hunt again for close to 20 years. Randomly ended up going to Africa as I was in Dallas for work meeting and showed up at DSC to meet someone related to work. Booked a hunt on a whim and expected it to suck as the outfitter was a total unorganized mess - they had just gotten a booth.

Had a great hunt and went back 9 months later. Hunted Botswana and Burkina. And have been canceling hunts in 2015. Unlikely to hunt 2016.

Was Africa good - yes. Was it worth the money - yes the first 4 hunts. Is it worth the money today - NO. The next hunt just does not keep me up at night especially when one looks at escalating cost and increase up taxes to make after tax income to go hunt.

Also I have zero interest in taxidermy and trophies - I like it at other peoples house, bars and sporting goods stores but not in my house. Also everything about hunting Africa kind of got turned on its head - I really don't think dangerous game is all its cracked up to be. I really like hunting eland that before I thought was a boring cow (maybe that is what buffalo hunting is . I always wanted to shoot a warthog and did on my third safari and that was it. Killed a wild lion and that basically took away most desires to hunt for now - so it was probably the best thing for my checkbook and personal balance sheet.

But I think the more time I spent around the hunting business the more it is like a second tier tourist business - not disney or four seasons but more like a wax museum. Maybe that was the biggest disappointment - my expectations came to earth/reality. I have made some good friends in it beyond the client relationship. But everything about the hunting business is that it is a tourist vacation business. I have heard of clients who shoot their PHs and continue with their safari as though it was nothing. I have heard about clients who demand a replacement PH and a continuation of a safari after their PH has been killed trying to finish on their injured DG. Both sides treat it as a business transaction and often in not a very classy way.

I have enjoyed Africa. I would like to hunt with all the guys I have hunted with in Zim, Botswana and Burkina. I will be going to Africa if work allows. My hunting going forward will be set my me and expectation of a vacation. I am done with high pressure (cats) and high dollar hunts - just cause I don't want to think I have spent x dollars I need to kill something. If I want to take an afternoon off to hang out at a waterhole and take pictures so be it. I will not hunt at a camp without wifi and internet - I want to be in touch with the world for work and don't want to do it via calling people on a sat phone. All trophies are part of my tip back to the outfitter.

For me most of the pricing issues are irrelevant cause by personal preferences are not for DG hunting, trophy shipment ect. I would not impose by preferences on other hunters or outfitters otherwise Africa DG would be in real trouble. For my boring hunting there will be opportunities in Africa.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by scruffy:
Shot an Alaskan brown bear a few years ago ... the paper work to get the skin and skull back to Canada was about $2,100 ....I never saw that coming until it was too late...

Scruffy,
It's way to late to help you with your bear but it could have been much different. When we went on our Alaskan grizzly hunt a few years we just took the two bears down to Fish and game in Anchorage and got the CITEs permit on the spot.usually they prefer a coue days but since we had a tighter timeline he fit us in. I don't remember if the permit cost anything at all, but I do remember that a 99 dollar extra baggage fee was all it took to get my bear home with me.

Dale Warren of Talon Distribution is the guy talk to for importing trophies into Canada. Even better for you he's in Edmonton. I phoned him from Anchorage for advice, he flat out told me there were two ways. One way cost 2 grand apiece and the other was free. He wouldn't even take a nickel for saving us the money. I won't even consider bringing anything home without talking to him first.

I have to wonder about the RSA pricing given that the value of the dollar versus the rand.

Has anyone seen any adjustments due to the cast change in the dollar versus the rand?

[quote]

As good a time as any to make my debut on the forum- hi everyone!

This thread is crucial because it touches on so many key points:

- diminishing supply of wildlife and wild areas
- increasing costs of protecting and managing what's left
- blind assumptions about the clientele (ask any game scout here and he'll tell you Americans come to Africa to hunt because they must have killed all their native game)- this thinking goes to the top.
- Gov'ts who apply the same philosophy to wildlife fees as they would to mineral royalties... there is very little management of RENEWABLE natural resources on this continent
- What is essentially a luxury recreation holiday is difficult to defend politically against the survival needs of the growing human populations in Africa
- In essence the era of the open wilderness hunting ground is over; there is nowhere that games survives without explicit protection of sorts. Large expansive areas are becoming rarer, and real wild big game hunts will become accessible to only a select few.

So where does that leave us, especially those of us who are young? Are we to settle for a lifetime of reading about buffalo hunts in a library of Africana, wishing we'd been born in another era?

I see plenty of habitat still out there. Perhaps it's time to let go of some of the romance and start investing in managed and protected herds. Private management does not necessarily need a private land-ownership model like in SA and Namibia. But it does need fresh approaches and thinking to get the best out of community and tribal land, of which there is still plenty in countries north of the Zambezi. Game produce offspring; so surely if someone designs a clever model, you can invest $ 20 000 today and have a lifetime of good hunting out of it, rather than paying once-off for a chance to shoot something in an area where circumstances dictate an exploitative rather than sustainable approach?

[quote]

if it's private and part of a stable national government, like say botswana, or like say namibia, then sir, you have got something you can client fund in the global hunting market.

and i would love to help you bring that forward into reality as will many others here.

now if it is dependent on national parks, safari concessions, campfire it will be a beast of less certainty, unpredictable, and inefficient in responding to consumptive and nonconsumptive tourism market forces [if it were my business i would want revenue from both].

this predigest against high fence, private ranch, and such is in some ways mushy thinking and not defensible hunting logic

this notion that FREE RANGE AND DEEP "WILD" AFRICA is the only way to hunt is unsustainable, unaffordable, and suffers from collective nonsense

for those of us that grew up on large desert cattle ranches, or fly our own plane, or even have rented and taken a ride around the hunting concession just to get a look down view you rather quickly realize we are all hunting next to people, farms, mines, towns, ect everywhere in africa.

it is only the fly camp, the lodge, or the camp fire that is positioned in deep wild dangerous africa of 1920

it is a great facade, one that makes the trip, and i for one hope the safari operators keep the stage set.

hell i did it in my backyard downtown, i get what's going on, but try not to bullshit myself about being on the dark continent in 1907

once a guy has been to africa a time or two he loses interest in paying jacked up prices for the opera house fixtures and the emotional notion that he is back with livingston fighting lions and holding church on sundays to save the poor lost souls of the dark continent

therefore hopelessly lost to the known world, awaiting rescue by stanley no less

thank god for the land rover and the dirt road it drove in on.

you should be in most cases just about a kilometer from ''rescue'' by the modern world in some cases a bit further but not much

''stanley is on his way''

there are some people in north america that pack up a horse get 3 days ride from a road and in some extreme and dangerous cases the cell phone will not even work. talk about wild away and lost to the world what about those guys.

then there are the Alaskan sheep hunters truly crazed, air dropped 300 miles from any road left to there own device in bad weather and uncertain conditions for 2 weeks, that right there is some wild shit why would anyone want to do that when they can get lost in DEEP WILD AFRICA next to a toyota trail

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Here's the deal for us. (probably more me then Joyce because she just tagged along until killing things on her own)

I remember being 8 years old reading "Outdoor life" and "Field and Stream" under the covers with a flashlight so my parents didn't catch me still up.

The dream of hunting "Black Death" was beyond the financial possibility of anyone I ever knew or grew up around in Pennsylvania.

I never even thought of Africa and those hours under those covers reading magazines until 9 years ago when I switched jobs to join a family practice clinic and a "boss" who had hunted Africa and beyond.

I started to believe I too could do this.

I never felt I had wealth. Don't get me wrong on this Larry Shores, but compared to you I do not have wealth but I saw an opportunity for a hardworking guy and his wife to live an "impossible dream" starting in 2010.

Do I regret all those dollars spent on hunting Africa and then the taxidermy afterward? Not in a heartbeat until I think about what those dollars could provide now in retirement.

That said, I would not trade any of it and I intend to import those Leopards and have Jerry Huffaker mount them.

Stupid money!! You bet!!

But I have always finished what I have started and that 8 year old "under the covers" will see this through.

That said, the hunting has brought many other experiences and friendships along the way.

Steve has written his "the client" article about how many of us have been "fooled" by PH's into thinking we are more than a client.

I suspect I have had some of those but I have also had the experience of sending money across the pond to a man named Andrew Baldry before a camp was even built and ended up with a Safari and a bag of game many would envy.

The 8 year old is satisfied and he will pay for that last piece of shipping and taxidermy but he is done with Africa as a hunting destination.

He has learned!!

Cheers
Jim

Jim,

I thank you for that.

You have been able and fortunate to take all the big game species that you desired in good game country. You have faced Lion on foot and shared good memories around a fire. A brace of Leopards as a finale.

You have done the best of Africa my friend and I hope one day to see you back in these lands.

Now what to do with that fine double of yours?

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have to wonder about the RSA pricing given that the value of the dollar versus the rand.

Has anyone seen any adjustments due to the cast change in the dollar versus the rand?

There are a number of discounted RSA hunts. Have seen some at 50% of posted day rates and trophy fees from last year. Rand devaluation is opening up deals in SA.

YES ABSOLUTELY

I purchased 12 days 8 people 20 head

so 4 wildebeest 4 BLESBUCK 4 springbuck
4 warthogs 2 zebra 2 red hartebeest

all in picked up and delivered to joeburge for 8 k us

nice lodge lots of local extra non hunt recreation for the gals and such

ALL IN 8 K USD for the summer of 2016 ''so right now''

you don't need to squander your money to have fun hunting in africa

this one is a full on family affair

we may add on a 7 day self drive to chobe and vic falls for 1500 usd

to enjoy more utilization of the cost of airfare but that's not firmed up yet



a trophy elephant hunt in '''deep wild lost to the world africa''' is an animal of a different price of course

first time i have hunted south africa we will see how it goes

africa is so big and diverse, i have not even one time, gone back hunted in the same place with the same people so.

it's the '''seeing africa as it is today''' that's part of the adventure

Stradling, I agree with you.

And speaking of your air-dropped Alaskans, there is perhaps still one true wilderness to hunt in Africa... air-drop into the Congo forests and come out with a bongo. Or malaria haha.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

I never felt I had wealth. Don't get me wrong on this Larry Shores, but compared to you I do not have wealth but I saw an opportunity for a hardworking guy and his wife to live an "impossible dream" starting in 2010.


Cheers
Jim

Jim:

I was not criticizing you. I was criticizing the system.

There is another sore subject with me. This is the subject of pricing for Americans versus the rest of the world.

I know for a fact that French pay far less for a hunt in Burkina Faso than an American will for the same hunt? Why?

One of my European AR friends has been trying to talk me into a hunt for Marco Polo. He knew that Europeans paid far less for a MP than Americans. He looked into booking one for me. He was astounded to learn that the permit an American must have cost thousands of dollars ($9,000 if I remember correctly) more than a permit would cost for a European. Why?

I wonder how many places this happens?

Finally, air charters. I find Zim's charter fees to be quite reasonable. But TZ? Every time I go I feel I just woke up from being passed out drunk on the floor of a gay bar. Arusha- Lukwati and back is $16,000. $16,000!!!!

I could pay it but it just ain't worth it to me.

leachwe

you are in the black part of the bull with that shot

I did a bit of work on the margin of the dark heart of congo africa

it holds the magic flame just looking down from google earth

you ph i will hunt

we will pay the first time in overhead costs

and have a true grand gritty safari

pack in w porters as well but just keep in minded

one need to self medicate w gin and tonic for malaria prevention then champagne for the cure when we get it


and we best plan on self rescue

if not we may be required to go to ground and grow corn once our bullets run out

i am in -- hell i'm all in --- what's the next step

Still there is no substitute for wild Africa and if it becomes a privilege for a few then so be it.



In this country you make your own roads and boundaries are still unmarked.

That is for sure,fairgame.I know what I want and that is hunting wild Africa.Not fishing or Disney Land.I am a pure breed hunter!

Reading this thread one thing is for sure - the annual 10-15 percent price hikes are coming to an end.

But my fear is the Africa hunting business will become like the new/used car business. List price that keeps going up and then different negotiated deals for all.

I am surprised the booking agents did inform outfitters that these price increases and additional charges will come back to bite them.

Mike

One thing bugs me is when a croc is used to bring the price of a buff hunt to that of a leopard hunt.I think a croc of being like a fish and there are so many of them that they should be taken for a mere trophy fee alone.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Still there is no substitute for wild Africa and if it becomes a privilege for a few then so be it.



In this country you make your own roads and boundaries are still unmarked.

Africa has always been a privilege for few. Going back to than earlier highly exclusive model might be much tougher when outfitters fill 1/2 mil square foot convention centers to sell their services.

Also that if you need to ask the price you cannot afford it attitude that I got at my first dsc from some Tanzania outfitters has come to bite them in the a@@. Try selling a leopard and buff hunt with a 16k charter.

Andrew I must commend you as you where the only outfitter I have meet who tired to reduce charter cost and negotiate on clients behalf. That was a quality act.

Mike

fair view as a seller it is your job to spin it like that

once more i will say == a business mind taking the long view ===might state

an experience similar to what was once wild africa, available to more than a few that are less informed or of indiscriminate wealth, is better managed if

priced

to a larger market that has access to google earth, cell phones, accurate reloader and by definition much much more money collectively

why because for one thing

with the second crowd on board we can really accomplish conservation based rural development and expand wild life

not just talk about it


and the funny thing is when the heavy lifters know what their money went for --- all most all of them will quit fishing and come back to measure your progress from time to time -- no matter what it cost them for the first tranche of funding

it will even affect you as you will intrinsically know that your are part of a successful program that is bigger than the hunter, the ph, and the sci show, that right there is the only real force that might drive sustainability normal people engaged in a believable program

now you need a bit more than a few fortunate souls to get that done sir

i am saying '''i am not jesus christ here''' but i may be pointing a touch more to the north than you are on this

Been a member here a while, don’t post much, mostly read. Been going to Namibia every year since 2008 and now spend a couple of cumulative months there each year. Also took and passed the KZN PH school and written exams in 2011 just for fun. Leave in a couple of weeks for my first of at least three 18 to 21-day trips there this year.

While I am a devout capitalist and believe in free markets and sellers can set whatever pricing and price points they desire, that also means the consumer is just as free to shop around. A “sale” is generally the price a willing seller and willing buyer agree to. All businesses need to calculate in this case, “fixed costs” like concession fees, government imposed quota fees, labor, facilities, transportation, insurance etc. and variable costs, food, fuel etc and advertising and profit margins. This is just basic business 101.

That said, in my view there does seem to be multi-tier marketing being practiced by some. I base my view on advertisements posted in the March and/or April issues of the RSA magazine “Magnum”. During those months the advertising section in the back pages have a special section offering hunting from basic self catered accommodations only biltong hunts to full up guided trophy hunts. The prices are quoted in Rand and the differences in daily rates is staggeringly considerable. Granted, many of these are on smaller private and probably high fence properties but, still….. Here are a few examples pulled from the issue with the 2015 prices as I haven’t received the Apr 2016 issue yet. There were two full pages of these kinds of representative offers.

Limpopo – “luxury accommodations, self-catering (bring and cook own food) R500 ($35US) per person per day”

Eastern Cape – “Fully equipped self catering cottage, lapa, cold room, butchery, R450 pppd.

Karoo – “4 Star Accommodations, 3 meals, vehicle, cold room, processing and PH – R950 ($65) pppd.

In all fairness, it would appear these are for “locals” and don’t include, trackers, skinners or trophy hide/skull prep or delivery to a taxidermist for processing/export, but I am willing to bet that each of these offers could and would be willing to obtain/do same, albeit at added costs, BUT in all likelihood, that still should fall well under what a lot of operators are “offering” for daily fees in similar areas for PG hunts of $450-$750 pppd for daily rates. Figure a current nominal exchange rate of 15:1.

Example of listed “trophy fees” and NOT biltong fees:

KZN – Kudu, R3300, Blk Wbst, R3300, B.Zebra, R5500, Impala, R1000, WartH, R1000.

Limpopo – Impala, R1000, BushB, R9500, B.Zebra, R8000, WartH, R800,

Eastern Cape – Eland, R8000, H,Wbst, R4200, Impala, R1350, P.Zebra R7000.

Again, these are just a few examples pulled directly from the adds.

One poster above questioned if any operators had adjusted their prices down due to the exchange rate. I can confirm 100% that at least one Namibian outfit has. All in 1x1 PG daily rates dropped from $300 pppd to $250 pppd and 2x1 $200pppd and trophy fees all dropped 15-20%. Basically he is charging the same rates as they were in 2011. He doesn’t attend the “big shows”, land owner (50K low-fence acres) so no concession fees, no quota fees etc. Only place he “advertises” is here on AR and word of mouth from past clients.

While the exchange rate might be good for US hunters/travelers, the net effect in most socialist countries be it in Europe or Africa, where the governments establish a lot of price controls, all the exchange rate does is drive up the cost of imported products. I can give you one example – In Namibia, they only have two grades of fuel – 95 Octane (premium for us US guys) and diesel. The government is the only authorized importer and enters into contract prices for fuel. While the price of oil has dropped on world markets from $120 to $40, and the price of premium gas in the US is down to around $2.50 pg the price in Namibia is still around $4.50 pg and the price of nearly all imported goods/products have gone up 15-25%.

One thing I mentioned at the top was all costs have to be figured into the cost of an outfitter/operator doing business and those costs are passed along to the customer in the daily and trophy fees. Has anyone stopped to consider the cost/expense outfitters/operators incur to attend all “the shows” and conventions in the US, Canada and Europe? The cost of flights, food/lodging, floor space, “donations” etc. ALL of that is passed along to the customer in the fees we end up paying. How many clients have to book just to pay $100,000 US in “advertising” bills? While the shows/conventions are a good way for prospective clients to meet/interact for a brief period of time with potential PH’s, the clients need to remember they are paying for that interaction and NOT the PH/Outfitter.

Namibia has done exceptional work in rural based conservation projects and programs-- yes

its countrywide ---yes

of good science and good economics --yes

have for a while now bucked the global nonconsumptive movements driven by emotion as opposed to robust conservation science -- yes gotta love em for that

the national plan it to increase and hunt more elephants and many many more buffalo --very rare extremely forward thinking [it's like they really do want to save the wildlife for future generations, and by god we are not kidding around about it-- kind of a thing] brings tears to ya

all that said

the current price fee structure passed on to safari operators is way to high for the current global financial conditions

it's killing the catalyst that greases the wheel of conservation wealth

i am referring to the safari operators that-- bid-- prepay-- go to shows-- sell the hunt-- build the camp--serve and survive the client [source of funds] put up with the bullshit from both ends - government/sellers--buyers/ market

do all this by mortgaging the family home and because they have such a love for the business it is unthinkable to do otherwise no matter the no money part

Namibia needs to get with it asp

wholesale operator cost needs to be indexed to global economics

wealth destruction at the operator level is suicide

what business when having a down year in sales fires the marketing staff

with a decade of relationship building to the money

intrinsically of incalculable value


in a perfect world everyone would be smart or at a minimum efficient

up to now Namibia has been if nothing else very EFFECTIVE that must not be squandered

i am talking here about the national parks and safari concessions not the private farms so much

if anyone is interested i can link you to the wild life studies that flesh this out

I'm thinking about going back to long range fishing out of San Diego. For about $3,000 I can fish for 10 days on a 100+' ship equipped with 2-3 man staterooms and classically trained chefs. Ten day of fishing for tuna and yellowtail

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Still there is no substitute for wild Africa and if it becomes a privilege for a few then so be it.

Fairgame, I must disagree with you here. If it becomes a privilege for the few then hunting on the whole will probably fall away. There are wild places, game rich, that can't be hunted no matter how privileged the customer, because there simply isn't a product on offer. Without a robust 'middle class' of local and foreign hunters, an industry can't exist, even for the elite.

I'm finding this thread very interesting, and from what I can tell this is a thinking-hunter's site!

South Africa, Namibia and formerly Zimbabwe have good wildlife industries because the numbers are there... the hunting industry is politically powerful enough to have an influence on policy and legislation. Can one say the same for other countries where outfitters just swallow whatever is dished out to them in all the fees, charges and other nonsense, which just gets passed on to the clients?

I think the future of hunting lies in robust 'middle-class' participation: we really should be getting more Africans hunting. Zambia has some potential... I don't know about any other countries where this might be possible.

The discussion around prices in Namibia and SA: there is sufficient manufacturing power in these countries that most of the consumables in camp won't have gone up with the exchange rates. A different story in countries where all the cheese, wine and veggies, even linen, crockery etc. are likely imported and flown in. So SA outfitters really shouldn't be jacking up their prices, when the exchange rate is so favourable.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Still there is no substitute for wild Africa and if it becomes a privilege for a few then so be it.

fairgame,

As a U.S. middle class laborer with dirt under my nails and band aids on my fingers I do not share your feelings towards the privilege part of this statement.