http://www.timeslive.co.za/loc...ion-hunting-in-court



Hunters association will defend its stance against captive-bred lion hunting in court


Ernest Mabuza | 18 November, 2016 11:46


The Professional Hunters Association of South Africa (PHASA) will on Tuesday oppose an urgent application brought by some of its members who have challenged the resolution taken by the organisation to distance itself from captive-bred lion hunting and breeding.


Phasa adopted this resolution in its annual general meeting (AGM) in November last year.

However‚ 13 Phasa members who did not adhere to the resolution had their memberships suspended by the executive committee.

They then went to the High Court in Pretoria on an urgent basis to challenge their suspensions and the resolution taken at the 2015 AGM.

They want the court to order that their membership of Phasa be immediately reinstated‚ pending any disciplinary proceedings to be instituted against them.


They said if the application was placed on the normal opposed motion roll‚ the annual general meeting to be held by Phasa scheduled for next Wednesday be postponed indefinitely‚ pending the finalisation of the dispute.

In its affidavit opposing their application‚ Phasa said some of the applicants were members of another hunting organisation known as the South African Predators Association‚ which is in favour of captive-bred lion hunting and breeding.

Phasa said it gave the applicants seven days within which to provide reasons why their memberships should not be terminated.

Phasa said after receiving responses from the 13 members‚ it decided to lift suspensions of three members who had explained that they were not involved in breeding and hunting of lions.


Phasa said during April 2016‚ it came to Phasa’s attention that certain of its members continued to hunt‚ breed or market captive-bred lions.

The association dispatched letters to those members informing them of the resolution taken by Phasa in November last year that any of its members found to be involved in the hunting and marketing of captive-bred lions would face disciplinary action. The letter said if found to be in breach of this resolution‚ they would face possible termination of their Phasa memberships.

“Members engaging in captive-bred lion activities would be in direct violation of Phasa’s constitution‚ and would face an internal disciplinary hearing‚ which will end in dismissal if found guilty‚” Phasa president Stan Burger said in the letter dated April 18 this year.

In a statement issued on Thursday‚ Burger said his organisation stands by its resolution to distance itself from captive-bred lion hunting and breeding and will defend its resolution in court.


“Phasa’s concern is rooted in the fact that the prevailing view amongst carnivore specialists‚ is that the breeding of lions in captivity does not contribute to the conservation of the species‚” Burger said.

Burger said this view was shared by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species‚ the International Union for Conservation of Nature‚ the US Fish & Wildlife Services‚ the World Wildlife Fund and local hunting associations.

“Captive-bred lion breeding and shooting does not uphold the moral principle that justifies responsible‚ ethical and legal hunting of wild lion (where the conservation value of hunting has been scientifically proven time and again) under the conditions of fair chase.

“For this reason‚ it is ethically indefensible and we will not support it‚” Burger said.

- TMG Digital

quote:

“Phasa’s concern is rooted in the fact that the prevailing view amongst carnivore specialists‚ is that the breeding of lions in captivity does not contribute to the conservation of the species‚” Burger said.

What a bloody stupid statement!

Agree with Saeed. How can it not contribute to the conservation of the species?!

Kudos to PHASA for standing by its position in opposition to captive-bred lion hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

“Phasa’s concern is rooted in the fact that the prevailing view amongst carnivore specialists‚ is that the breeding of lions in captivity does not contribute to the conservation of the species‚” Burger said.

What a bloody stupid statement!

Who even came up with that bullshit!? I've seen that statement now on other "farmed" species too!?
Of course does a big gene pool support conservation. Obviously animals in captivity dont support wild populations but it doesn't hurt them. It is livestock, so how did someone came up with that!?

Exactly. The nose of the camel under the tent. And who cares if a hunter chooses to take a captive bred lion, zebra, wildebeast, impala, etc. etc. etc. A captive bred lion shot by a hunter is one less wild lion shot.

Phasa is a joke. Just a bunch of guys who like to pat themselves on the back for doing next to nothing. They cut and ran when it got hot on the subject of lions. Watch and see how many change there tone when the new president here in the states gets the lion ban turned around.

A lion is the same as any raised buff or kudu that they all hunt with no problem at all.

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

A lion is the same as any raised buff or kudu that they all hunt with no problem at all.

Of course that is a fallacious argument . . . they are two very different practices. Thank goodness PHASA appreciates the distinction.

Mike,

I'll bite. Other than the recent uproar around lion hunting how do you see the difference between shooting a kudu that was bought that season to be shot and a lion that has been bought to be shot? Except that one is a lion, a species that is in the public eye now and one is a kudu that nobody cares about the hunt of either behind wire seems the same to me.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by bcap:

A lion is the same as any raised buff or kudu that they all hunt with no problem at all.

Of course that is a fallacious argument . . . they are two very different practices. Thank goodness PHASA appreciates the distinction.

I am curious, how do you know?
Never done a fenced lion hunt, so I don't know.

Regarding the original topic: it seems to me like this is a classical case of someone who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.
Phasa thinks captive lion hunting is wrong? Ok then say and get things done behind closed doors. Nobody winns when they fight in public. And please (!!!!) don't repeat the bullshit Antis come up with and hope they let you live your life because they won't!!

The funny part is several of the original movers and shakers of PHASA were up to their necks in the canned Rhino trade.

Unfortunately, PHASA today is playing right into the hands of the anti hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mike,

I'll bite. Other than the recent uproar around lion hunting how do you see the difference between shooting a kudu that was bought that season to be shot and a lion that has been bought to be shot? Except that one is a lion, a species that is in the public eye now and one is a kudu that nobody cares about the hunt of either behind wire seems the same to me.

Mark

A captive bred lion is released to be shot within a matter of days, perhaps a week. There is no expectation or reasonable possibility that the lion will breed, form a family group, propagate, etc. It is a canned "hunt". Plains game animals raised on game farms and purchased at auction are released to breed, form family groups and propagate . . . some will survive and some will be hunted at some point. If a plains game animal was bred and raised in captivity and released to be specifically targeted and shot in a matter of days or a week, I would find that objectionable too. That is not hunting, it is killing. Hardly surprising that an organization dedicated to hunting would object to such a practice. To me, the distinction between releasing a specific animal with the intent that that specific animal will be pursued and killed in a matter of days versus releasing an animal with the intent that it will become part of a herd out of which some animals will ultimately be hunted is a meaningful distinction.

Or just splitting hairs...

Classic divide and conquer. What's next?

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mike,

I'll bite. Other than the recent uproar around lion hunting how do you see the difference between shooting a kudu that was bought that season to be shot and a lion that has been bought to be shot? Except that one is a lion, a species that is in the public eye now and one is a kudu that nobody cares about the hunt of either behind wire seems the same to me.

Mark

I have to agree with Mike J on this but perhaps for different reasons. The lion doesn't really "live" behind the enclosure - he is put there to be shot.

The kudu could theoretically live his whole life behind the fence and die of old age.

Mike,

Here is the reality of which I'm sure your aware. Kudu or other popular plains game cannot be maintained on a fairly small fenced property in numbers that will allow every client throughout the season to have the chance to take one. Males have to be bought from breeders to keep huntable numbers up. Therefore they are bought to be shot. In my mind that makes them very much the same as a lion bought to be shot.

Not all "canned" hunts are on small properties where one lion is bought for the sole purpose of being hunted by a specific client. Some "captive bred" lions are hunted on large properties and the lions male and female have been roaming the property for months and killing their own game. I vetted one of these hunts pretty thoroughly last year for myself. I was under no illusion that it would be the same as a hunt on the Luangwa where I've killed two lions but it was a tracking hunt for what might be a very dangerous animal. To me the line separating this lion hunt from a kudu that was bought from breeder to keep the population up is quite blurry.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

Not all "canned" hunts are on small properties where one lion is bought for the sole purpose of being hunted by a specific client. Some "captive bred" lions are hunted on large properties and the lions male and female have been roaming the property for months and killing their own game.

I am quite confident this represents an exceeding small percentage of captive-bred lion hunts. As you know, most involve the lion being released a matter of days or even hours before the lion is "hunted". Apparently PHASA feels that the latter does not constitute hunting . . . I agree.

I agree too. Never understood why someone would like to shoot a lion in a fenced area.

This whole damn thing needs to just go away...best to take our medicine now and move on.

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:

I agree too. Never understood why someone would like to shoot a lion in a fenced area.

Or ducks on water, or sleeping lions, or animals drinking around a waterhole, or a host of other possible scenarios that someone could find objectionable.

Point is, we all have different definitions about hunting ethics and we either embrace them all or we watch each one eventually slip away. PHASA can throw captive lions under the bus all they want and hope the antis go away. That simply isn't going to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Opus1:

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:

I agree too. Never understood why someone would like to shoot a lion in a fenced area.

Or ducks on water, or sleeping lions, or animals drinking around a waterhole, or a host of other possible scenarios that someone could find objectionable.

Point is, we all have different definitions about hunting ethics and we either embrace them all or we watch each one eventually slip away. PHASA can throw captive lions under the bus all they want and hope the antis go away. That simply isn't going to happen.

All those things are true but at this point I see no reason to let the practice continue...It's hard to say that because I am normally about freedom above all else. However, this industry cant seem to get it's act together. If it could I'd be all about backing it.

Small hunting areas, Drugged animals, Lions just released to be shot within days or sometimes hours has no place in hunting.

And next it will be putting animals behind high fences for the sole purposes of being hunted.

This is the beginning, not the end.

Opus,

I struggle with this subject and find myself flip-flopping all the time.

In my mind it comes down to the difference between an individuals personal freedom and hunters as a group being leaders in wildlife conservation.

Shooting an animal that has been shot up with drugs or just released a few hours before my PH puts me on him, is not good sportsmanship where I was raised. I was taught that first you must care for and respect the animals you hunt...that is not being applied in some of these "hunts".

If the industry could find a way for the lions to live, eat, and breed for an extended period before I hunted them..I'd be all for it.

Actually, there is nothing to flip flop about.

It is plane and simple.

Most animals hunted in South Africa are BRED FOR HUNTING!

How they are hunted is immaterial.

What is wrong with that?

ALL sheep are bred for killing to be eaten!
All cows are bred to be killed for eating!
All pigs are bred to be killed for eating!

What is wrong with that?

Cannot help being reminded by some nuts in New York starting a HUMAN RIGHTS organizations for ANIMAlS.

PHASA has started on that path too, and God only knows where it is going to lead.

PHASA has never been relevant, and now they are trying to be not irrelevant, but are against the whole culture of hunting; especially in South Africa.

They have absolutely not guts!

You won't see me first in line to ban captive breed lion hunting or whatever the politically correct term is....but the whole thing seems shady to me and I choose not to participate...

Others may enjoy it and more power to them...I would rather have no lion than one drugged.

At a minimum they should clean up their act....

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
You won't see me first in line to ban captive breed lion hunting or whatever the politically correct term is....but the whole thing seems shady to me and I choose not to participate...

Others may enjoy it and more power to them...I would rather have no lion than one drugged.

At a minimum they should clean up their act....

Exactly.

No difference between people defending free speech, despite the fact other's say things which are diametrically opposite to their own opinions!

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mike,

I'll bite. Other than the recent uproar around lion hunting how do you see the difference between shooting a kudu that was bought that season to be shot and a lion that has been bought to be shot? Except that one is a lion, a species that is in the public eye now and one is a kudu that nobody cares about the hunt of either behind wire seems the same to me.

Mark

I have to agree with Mike J on this but perhaps for different reasons. The lion doesn't really "live" behind the enclosure - he is put there to be shot.

The kudu could theoretically live his whole life behind the fence and die of old age.

So, if the lion were released, allowed to live there .. say a year before hunting, it would be ok? Assuming the enclosure was large enough for your taste and secure enough to keep it from escape.

The intensive captured breeding of game serves no purpose for conservation. It removes natural selection and the farmer manipulates the breeding program to breed animals with a certain characteristic. That is wrong, game is not domestic animals.

A while ago there was a lot said about golden wildebeest that was castrated and sold to be hunted, that was wrong how can the captive lion breeding then be ok.

The decision not to partake in the shooting of of captive bred Lions was taken by the members of PHASA not the EXCO of PHASA. The EXCO must do what the members decided.

There are 13 members of PHASA who was suspended due to the continued participation in this practice. The suspension of 3 members were lifted after they stated that they do not participate in the shooting of captive bred Lions. The 13 brought an application before the North Gauteng high court and PHASA opposed the application. I have a copy of the application and the opposing statement. Most members who brought the application before the court are also members of SAPA.

PHASA is definitely not against the culture of hunting, they are promoting ethical sustainable hunting done on the fair chase principle, to which I fully subscribe.

Most if not all intensive breeding programs supports only the owners greed which is detrimental to the conservation efforts.

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
The intensive captured breeding of game serves no purpose for conservation. It removes natural selection and the farmer manipulates the breeding program to breed animals with a certain characteristic. That is wrong, game is not domestic animals.

A while ago there was a lot said about golden wildebeest that was castrated and sold to be hunted, that was wrong how can the captive lion breeding then be ok.

The decision not to partake in the shooting of of captive bred Lions was taken by the members of PHASA not the EXCO of PHASA. The EXCO must do what the members decided.

There are 13 members of PHASA who was suspended due to the continued participation in this practice. The suspension of 3 members were lifted after they stated that they do not participate in the shooting of captive bred Lions. The 13 brought an application before the North Gauteng high court and PHASA opposed the application. I have a copy of the application and the opposing statement. Most members who brought the application before the court are also members of SAPA.

PHASA is definitely not against the culture of hunting, they are promoting ethical sustainable hunting done on the fair chase principle, to which I fully subscribe.

Most if not all intensive breeding programs supports only the owners greed which is detrimental to the conservation efforts.

Isn't most hunting in South Africa on farms?

Aren't these farms breeding animals specifically for hunting??

How much of hunting in South Africa is actually on open, wild land? No fences at all?

quote:

So, if the lion were released, allowed to live there .. say a year before hunting, it would be ok? Assuming the enclosure was large enough for your taste and secure enough to keep it from escape.

It could be more acceptable than sedating and taking it from its pen the night before it gets "hunted".

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Jaco Human:
The intensive captured breeding of game serves no purpose for conservation. It removes natural selection and the farmer manipulates the breeding program to breed animals with a certain characteristic. That is wrong, game is not domestic animals.

A while ago there was a lot said about golden wildebeest that was castrated and sold to be hunted, that was wrong how can the captive lion breeding then be ok.

The decision not to partake in the shooting of of captive bred Lions was taken by the members of PHASA not the EXCO of PHASA. The EXCO must do what the members decided.

There are 13 members of PHASA who was suspended due to the continued participation in this practice. The suspension of 3 members were lifted after they stated that they do not participate in the shooting of captive bred Lions. The 13 brought an application before the North Gauteng high court and PHASA opposed the application. I have a copy of the application and the opposing statement. Most members who brought the application before the court are also members of SAPA.

PHASA is definitely not against the culture of hunting, they are promoting ethical sustainable hunting done on the fair chase principle, to which I fully subscribe.

Most if not all intensive breeding programs supports only the owners greed which is detrimental to the conservation efforts.

Isn't most hunting in South Africa on farms?

Aren't these farms breeding animals specifically for hunting??

How much of hunting in South Africa is actually on open, wild land? No fences at all?

There is a huge difference in having small camps with females in it and deciding which male will mate with them and leaving the animals on a fenced area large enough to breed feed and fend for themselves with minimal human intervention. When I say minimal human intervention, it is to ensure that there is water available for them and ensuring that the area is managed in a ecological sustainable way for the animals to survive on their own.

SAEED I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU on your points, ironically 80% of all red stag in New Zeeland is penned raised put in a shoot measured and then called in a class bronze, silver, or gold! most of the exotic game ranches in Texas are small with every species under the sun available Namibia is importing South Africas sable Nyala's black wildebeeast blesbuck as fast as the can there is even talk of buffalo now while they hunt captive bred lions in South Africa and we can not being PHASA members go figure!!!

Jaco Human if you think breeding animals in a pen have no conservation value you live in another world tell how big is your ranch and how do you run it as a profitable ranch?? or outfit??

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
SAEED I HAVE TO AGREE WITH YOU on your points, ironically 80% of all red stag in New Zeeland is penned raised put in a shoot measured and then called in a class bronze, silver, or gold! most of the exotic game ranches in Texas are small with every species under the sun available Namibia is importing South Africas sable Nyala's black wildebeeast blesbuck as fast as the can there is even talk of buffalo now while they hunt captive bred lions in South Africa and we can not being PHASA members go figure!!!

Jaco Human if you think breeding animals in a pen have no conservation value you live in another world tell how big is your ranch and how do you run it as a profitable ranch?? or outfit??

Phillip, the intensive capture breeding programs are purely there to to produce animals with longer horn lengths and colour variants. There is a place that capture breeding plays and I do agree that it plays a role in conservation, there are certain species where humans had to intervene to save the species. The moment you start cross breeding animals from different population groups to enhance horn length then it do not serve conservation.

Jaco you are generalising, There is more Sable Roan buffalo in South Africa then ever before!!! is that not called conservation?? don't always use the colour variants as a example that is getting old, they have being around since day one... white blackbuck all the colour springboks and for that matter fallow dear in Europe every colour you can think of.... Lets take buffalo for a example you will find them on most game ranches these days is that not conservation??

White blesbuck I was trying to say...

quote:

Originally posted by INTREPID SAFARIS:
Jaco you are generalising, There is more Sable Roan buffalo in South Africa then ever before!!! is that not called conservation?? don't always use the colour variants as a example that is getting old, they have being around since day one... white blackbuck all the colour springboks and for that matter fallow dear in Europe every colour you can think of.... Lets take buffalo for a example you will find them on most game ranches these days is that not conservation??

Phillip I am not arguing the above, that is captive breeding, it is not intensive capture breeding. My issue is with intensive capture breeding. We came a long way in SA to save Rhinos, have disease free buffalo, save the Bontebok the Cape Zebra etc. They are all now roaming freely on game farms and nature reserves. This is totally different from breeding animals in a small pen, getting them used to humans and then letting them free a day or 2 before they will be shot. This to me is not beneficial to conservation

Cary on nitpicking.

As soon as this battle is lost, they will start on all captive bred animals.

And some of you lot will be out of a job.

It seems that the general consensus from members replying on this thread, is that all South African plains game hunts are put and take.

Put and take is certainly not the norm.

Am I missing something here?

Saeed amen again its called the dominos effect...and Jaco YOU make it sound really bad!! IT ALL STARTED WITH INTESIVE BREEDING as numbers increased it became semi intensive to the point now where you find breeding herds on ranches and not in pens! The lion debate will go on forever there is just not enough big enough ranches in South Arica where big self sustained prides of lions can roam free. What the answer is I don't know wish I did but what I do know for a feck is the moment us hunters fight among ourselves the antis unite and they will not stop until any form of hunting is gone and that is there ultimate goal. NO HUNTING WILL EVER BE EXACTABLE FOR THEM!

Hunting ethics is such a thorny issue I guess we should just ignore it . . . after all there is no real difference between hunting and killing.